Namor Was Never Fixed as a Defender

So while doing some act 7 exploration I came across a fairly standard namor in 7.1.3. I used stryfe and did the typical phase heavy counter but the damage was reflected back onto me instead. If im not mistaken this was supposed to have been fixed back when everyone encountered the bug with ghost but it still remains.

This wasn’t the worst part though, as I then brought in my sigil witch for clean up. I whiffed the first part of an sp1 (the rock special) but he then dashed into the second part. The game registered him as hitting me since he was striking my character’s position even though I was still using a special (i.e i was invulnerable and he was about to eat my sp1 to the face). The result however, was the damage being reflected for that sp1 back onto me- which CANNOT be intentional. I know for a fact that kabam doesnt want people to be able to throw themselves at specials and reflect the damage with namor so this interaction must be bugged.

While I am pretty sure the first interaction is unintentional I am SURE the second is a bug.

Device: iphone 11 pro
Map: 7.1.3
Characters used: Sigil Witch and Stryfe
Bugged Character: Namor

If anyone else has experienced this (my resident ghost and stryfe players surely have) then please drop a message below.

Comments

TheBair123

this is how namor works i believe. if he's in an attack animation and is taking damage, it gets reflected onto you. two more examples of this are when ghost is phasing and namor is missing, if you throw an attack right after he misses, it gets reflected onto you because he's in the middle of an attack animation. also, if you parry with colossus against him, he would usually take the damage from the parry, but it gets reflected back onto you

unknown

This content has been removed.

Suros_moon

That’s just how namor works, you can’t intercept him or you’ll have the damage reflected on you

Were you guys around when Namor was introduced in his first monthly EQ. When this big first arose it was definitely categorized as a bug and the team attempted to fix it. If that sentiment has since changed please link me to where it was listed as a feature that reflecting damage while intercepting (especially after phasing) was now considered normal and not a bug

Suros_moon

Here is the relevant post

Suros_moon

Additionally it seems like if Namor’s ability was simply changed to account for a “successful hit” rather than “while attacking” then nothing changes on attack and all the problems are fixed on defense. I cant think of any interactions that are beneficial to the player where we need the reflect simply while attacking vs actually hitting while coding it this way seems to break defensive norms

PapaMidnite007

He's really easy to fight I don't see any problem whatsoever.

Suros_moon

He's really easy to fight I don't see any problem whatsoever.

A bug is a problem. A bug that is going to affect champions who see a lot of use is an even bigger problem. A bug that was supposed to be fixed but was not is still a problem. Ease of the fight doesn’t determine what should and shouldn’t be fixed. Bugs are bugs. Imagine if kabam had responded to that aq sentinel sp1 bug with “oh well he’s not that hard so we’re not going to fix it”. This comment is a bad sentiment at best

Malreck04

Additionally it seems like if Namor’s ability was simply changed to account for a “successful hit” rather than “while attacking” then nothing changes on attack and all the problems are fixed on defense. I cant think of any interactions that are beneficial to the player where we need the reflect simply while attacking vs actually hitting while coding it this way seems to break defensive norms

not at all. Lots of time you can be hitting into opponents block to stop taking damage so it is imperative that it works "while attacking" and not "successful hit"

Suros_moon

Additionally it seems like if Namor’s ability was simply changed to account for a “successful hit” rather than “while attacking” then nothing changes on attack and all the problems are fixed on defense. I cant think of any interactions that are beneficial to the player where we need the reflect simply while attacking vs actually hitting while coding it this way seems to break defensive norms
not at all. Lots of time you can be hitting into opponents block to stop taking damage so it is imperative that it works "while attacking" and not "successful hit"

Hitting a block is a successful hit. I meant successfully hit in contrast to missing which was the subject of the post

unknown

This content has been removed.

Suros_moon

Additionally it seems like if Namor’s ability was simply changed to account for a “successful hit” rather than “while attacking” then nothing changes on attack and all the problems are fixed on defense. I cant think of any interactions that are beneficial to the player where we need the reflect simply while attacking vs actually hitting while coding it this way seems to break defensive norms
Hitting into kitty while she is phasing would be effected

You mean missing a hit?

Suros_moon

Additionally it seems like if Namor’s ability was simply changed to account for a “successful hit” rather than “while attacking” then nothing changes on attack and all the problems are fixed on defense. I cant think of any interactions that are beneficial to the player where we need the reflect simply while attacking vs actually hitting while coding it this way seems to break defensive norms
Hitting into kitty while she is phasing would be effected

In what situation do you need to reflect damage while hitting into a phased kitty and if you've already missed (meaning she is dashing in) arent you going to eat a combo anyways?

BuggyDClown

Namor can reflect the special attack too if timed correct.

PapaMidnite007

He's really easy to fight I don't see any problem whatsoever.
A bug is a problem. A bug that is going to affect champions who see a lot of use is an even bigger problem. A bug that was supposed to be fixed but was not is still a problem. Ease of the fight doesn’t determine what should and shouldn’t be fixed. Bugs are bugs. Imagine if kabam had responded to that aq sentinel sp1 bug with “oh well he’s not that hard so we’re not going to fix it”. This comment is a bad sentiment at best

Then if it's a bug then it should be looked into

Squirrelguy

You complain that it shouldn’t be possible for him to reflect a special attack… which both seems wrong and is wrong. The only way he reflects a full special attack is if the attack happens during the brief time that he is attacking the opponent. If it is a multi-hit special, the first hit will reflect because he was attacking in, but it also halts his progress and the rest of the hits will do damage.

This really only is a problem if you use certain miss champs, or play badly, but I don’t see why it should be changed. There are plenty of characters that just have hard counters to their abilities, and you can still work around this interaction. Just takes knowledge of his abilities and a minuscule amount of planning.

Suros_moon

You complain that it shouldn’t be possible for him to reflect a special attack… which both seems wrong and is wrong. The only way he reflects a full special attack is if the attack happens during the brief time that he is attacking the opponent. If it is a multi-hit special, the first hit will reflect because he was attacking in, but it also halts his progress and the rest of the hits will do damage.

This really only is a problem if you use certain miss champs, or play badly, but I don’t see why it should be changed. There are plenty of characters that just have hard counters to their abilities, and you can still work around this interaction. Just takes knowledge of his abilities and a minuscule amount of planning.

In this response you seemed to have glossed over the sigil witch part which is a two hit special, but it doesn’t really speak to the point as any reflection without actually connecting with the other character seems to be contentious. The AI blocked the first part (my unblockable buff expired right as my special began) then the AI (as the second part of the special began) dashed in and started “hitting” my character meaning the damage was reflected. In any instance where a champ has fewer hits on a special there’s potential for a lot of issues here especially with the new tendencies that the AI has been undertaking.

To my bigger point (that being about champs who do miss intercepting) it seems that kabam has agreed that this was not the intended interaction. No one here has provided any evidence that this sentiment has changed. The patch notes literally state that you should be able to “punish him without receiving damage” and that this is “targeted to champions who use miss”. Even if the special issue isnt regarded as a bug (something I think is odd but im not attached to. We’ll all suffer for it in these instances but some things are the way they are), the miss issue was not fixed and thus should be treated as a bug.

In this thread I have received three kinds of responses to the claim that namors interaction with miss-intercept is bugged:

1) This is not a bug.
Response: It is; the team has already debunked this and the only way to state otherwise is show a more recent post from them stating the contrary.

2) Its not that big a deal.
Response: If you search namor in these forums the most frequently recurring theme is this messed up interaction. Its a commonly recurring, annoying and painful bug. Even if none of those three things were true, a bug should be patched. If you dont agree then none of you better complain if kabam drags their feet when something else is hurting the player base and you feel its not coming along fast enough.

3) It would hurt Namor’s kit
Response: If coded in the way I described the ONLY thing that changes on offense is… nothing. They already tried a version of this change by making the window line up with his animations more closely but clearly it did not resolve the issue. If you change it to have to rely on contact then it solves the issue while leaving him the exact same in terms of utility save for one interaction with a kitty pride. This interaction relies on you and kitty dashing in at the same time with kitty phasing and you missing the hit. This would cause you to not reflect the damage of kitty slapping you in the face but completely ignores the fact that youre eating a combo anyways completely making the one medium difference moot. So yes, ill bit the bullet here and say that in order to fix these much larger interactions we should sacrifice this one where you get intercepted by one character which means you take the damage of one medium more than usual .

Im honestly surprised that an anti-player bug is somehow contentious to bring up. A bug that kabam even acknowledges and is so frequently encountered by players that the forums pick it up every few weeks.

Suros_moon

My question for the responders on this forums: Can any of you link me a post from kabam saying that Namor is working as intended with characters who miss? If thats the case I have no attachment to the argument. Its not a bug. Simple. My entire gripe is that something the team has catalogued as a bug is still occurring. No one seems to be able to provide something saying it’s intended

TheBair123

My question for the responders on this forums: Can any of you link me a post from kabam saying that Namor is working as intended with characters who miss? If thats the case I have no attachment to the argument. Its not a bug. Simple. My entire gripe is that something the team has catalogued as a bug is still occurring. No one seems to be able to provide something saying it’s intended

to my knowledge, there's not an announcement that'll say "namor can reflect damage while he's attacking the opponent, even if it doesn't connect or if he misses." but, in the sig ability, this is what it says:

the way i read that, if namor takes damage while he is executing an attack, the damage is reflected back to the opponent. there isn't a clause in there about "if he misses, he doesn't reflect" or "if the hit doesn't deal damage, he doesn't reflect." it simply just says that when he is attacking, he reflects the damage. that's how i interpret it

Suros_moon

My question for the responders on this forums: Can any of you link me a post from kabam saying that Namor is working as intended with characters who miss? If thats the case I have no attachment to the argument. Its not a bug. Simple. My entire gripe is that something the team has catalogued as a bug is still occurring. No one seems to be able to provide something saying it’s intended
to my knowledge, there's not an announcement that'll say "namor can reflect damage while he's attacking the opponent, even if it doesn't connect or if he misses." but, in the sig ability, this is what it says:

the way i read that, if namor takes damage while he is executing an attack, the damage is reflected back to the opponent. there isn't a clause in there about "if he misses, he doesn't reflect" or "if the hit doesn't deal damage, he doesn't reflect." it simply just says that when he is attacking, he reflects the damage. that's how i interpret it

But upon his release during the EQ it was noted that the interaction with miss was unintentional. That makes it a bug. If kabam had come out and stated that this was actually how it was supposed to work (you receive damage if you miss intercept) then case closed. Instead, they outright stated the opposite. They did not intend for it to happen. They then tried to patch that bug (see the post above) and it didnt work. So it still needs a fix. You can see this from kabam mikes post. Does that make sense? The reason Im asking for a post from kabam stating otherwise is because we need to be on the same page that this is or is not a bug. For now the only word from kabam is clearly stating that it IS. Moreover they wanted to patch it but failed

Suros_moon

Aha. After a lot of digging I was able to find this which is the response I wanted

https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/142464/ghost-gets-damage-from-hitting-namor/p1

On the 2nd page after the fix went live we have a response from the team which states that

Now I can redact my contention because it seems it is not categorized as a bug. It is odd that they’d emphasize a fix targeted for champions who utilize miss then immediately say that the fix won’t help the champions who miss but this is evidence that will suffice