Titania buff immunity vs Wiccan

Moneymike128

I recently brought Titania into war to take out a Mojo and Wiccan, and I took incinerate debuffs for "buffs failed due to reduced ability accuracy or Wiccans personal abilities".

I feel like Titania's buff immunity should supercede the neutralize passive, since she would never have gained a buff regardless of Wiccan's ability... Is this working as intended?

Ortoun

I believe this was already asked and answered with regards to red guardian and s2099, they are immune to the effects of buffs, but the attempt to trigger them occurred, and that is what neutralize blocks and then triggers the incinerate off or. It kind of sucks because I think titania is the only buff immune that doesn't trigger something instead of getting a buff.

AMS94

Understand it this way

Namor inflicts bleeds on his opponent but if he fails to apply bleed due to bleed immunity, he gets his enrage charges

Similarly even though the champ is buff immune, the game still tried to put a buff on them which failed bcoz of their immunity, & that's why the incinerates trigger

Trigger point is not gaining a buff, but "failure" to gain a buff which also happens in case of immunity

Havanaknight

I’m sure it can be argued either way, but to me Titania doesn’t fail to gain a buff because of Wiccan/neutralize. She fails because of her own abilities.

AverageDesi

Havanaknight said:

I’m sure it can be argued either way, but to me Titania doesn’t fail to gain a buff because of Wiccan/neutralize. She fails because of her own abilities.

It's not about whose abilities it is . But about the order in which these get triggered. Aar takes priority

Havanaknight

AverageDesi said:

Havanaknight said:

I’m sure it can be argued either way, but to me Titania doesn’t fail to gain a buff because of Wiccan/neutralize. She fails because of her own abilities.

It's not about whose abilities it is . But about the order in which these get triggered. Aar takes priority

But do her buffs actually fail because of AAR? Not really. It’s immunity.

After just witnessing/realizing hit me with your best shot wasn’t coded correctly, it isn’t outside of the realm of possibility for the order of operations to get switched here and have them check immunities first.

Maratox

Havanaknight said:

AverageDesi said:

Havanaknight said:

I’m sure it can be argued either way, but to me Titania doesn’t fail to gain a buff because of Wiccan/neutralize. She fails because of her own abilities.

It's not about whose abilities it is . But about the order in which these get triggered. Aar takes priority

But do her buffs actually fail because of AAR? Not really. It’s immunity.

After just witnessing/realizing hit me with your best shot wasn’t coded correctly, it isn’t outside of the realm of possibility for the order of operations to get switched here and have them check immunities first.

It would be wrong. In order for something to not be applied because of immunities, it has to attempt to be applied first. So if a buff is applied, Titania is immune to it. But if the buff fails, there’s no need for titania’s immunity to prevent it. The order of operations can’t really be switched.

Havanaknight

Maratox said:

Havanaknight said:

AverageDesi said:

Havanaknight said:

I’m sure it can be argued either way, but to me Titania doesn’t fail to gain a buff because of Wiccan/neutralize. She fails because of her own abilities.

It's not about whose abilities it is . But about the order in which these get triggered. Aar takes priority

But do her buffs actually fail because of AAR? Not really. It’s immunity.

After just witnessing/realizing hit me with your best shot wasn’t coded correctly, it isn’t outside of the realm of possibility for the order of operations to get switched here and have them check immunities first.

It would be wrong. In order for something to not be applied because of immunities, it has to attempt to be applied first. So if a buff is applied, Titania is immune to it. But if the buff fails, there’s no need for titania’s immunity to prevent it. The order of operations can’t really be switched.

But how can you prevent something from occurring that wasn’t supposed to occur in the first place?

Follow up: does an awakened rintrah get his power gain vs Titania as well?

AverageDesi

Havanaknight said:

Maratox said:

Havanaknight said:

AverageDesi said:

Havanaknight said:

I’m sure it can be argued either way, but to me Titania doesn’t fail to gain a buff because of Wiccan/neutralize. She fails because of her own abilities.

It's not about whose abilities it is . But about the order in which these get triggered. Aar takes priority

But do her buffs actually fail because of AAR? Not really. It’s immunity.

After just witnessing/realizing hit me with your best shot wasn’t coded correctly, it isn’t outside of the realm of possibility for the order of operations to get switched here and have them check immunities first.

It would be wrong. In order for something to not be applied because of immunities, it has to attempt to be applied first. So if a buff is applied, Titania is immune to it. But if the buff fails, there’s no need for titania’s immunity to prevent it. The order of operations can’t really be switched.

But how can you prevent something from occurring that wasn’t supposed to occur in the first place?

Follow up: does an awakened rintrah get his power gain vs Titania as well?

Answer to your follow up, yes.

Imagine you're fighting Colossus with nick fury. Your Nick has a 100% AAR concussion. If you hit Colossus with a medium, does the 'immunity' call pop up?

IvarTheBoneless

Havanaknight said:

Maratox said:

Havanaknight said:

AverageDesi said:

Havanaknight said:

I’m sure it can be argued either way, but to me Titania doesn’t fail to gain a buff because of Wiccan/neutralize. She fails because of her own abilities.

It's not about whose abilities it is . But about the order in which these get triggered. Aar takes priority

But do her buffs actually fail because of AAR? Not really. It’s immunity.

After just witnessing/realizing hit me with your best shot wasn’t coded correctly, it isn’t outside of the realm of possibility for the order of operations to get switched here and have them check immunities first.

It would be wrong. In order for something to not be applied because of immunities, it has to attempt to be applied first. So if a buff is applied, Titania is immune to it. But if the buff fails, there’s no need for titania’s immunity to prevent it. The order of operations can’t really be switched.

But how can you prevent something from occurring that wasn’t supposed to occur in the first place?

Follow up: does an awakened rintrah get his power gain vs Titania as well?

Regardless of how it works now I also think this is how it should work. It's very weird that ability accuracy reduction to gain buffs works on buff immune characters.

Very stupid example I'm sure but if ability accuracy comes before immunities then a character with increased offensive ability accuracy to place bleed should be able to bleed a bleed immune character? Please tell me where my logic is wrong because typing that felt very wrong lol

Magrailothos

I'm afraid this is working as intended; or at least working as the game engine is coded (which isn't always the same thing), and changing it is likely to lead to unpredictable/unexpected side effects.

Given the tiny proportion of game players who frequent these forums, I wonder if the game team could add more info to Wiccan/Rintrah's in-game descriptions starting something like "Failure to gain buffs is checked before any champion immunities to buffs are checked" on a pop-up.

If you want to get around Rintrah and Wiccans abilities that punish 'failure' to gain buffs, you need to play around the Neutralise. Or you can use Quicksilver if you have him - he removes the Dexterity mastery, so doesn't attempt to trigger Precision in the first place. No Precision= no Incineration.

AverageDesi

IvarTheBoneless said:

Havanaknight said:

Maratox said:

Havanaknight said:

AverageDesi said:

Havanaknight said:

I’m sure it can be argued either way, but to me Titania doesn’t fail to gain a buff because of Wiccan/neutralize. She fails because of her own abilities.

It's not about whose abilities it is . But about the order in which these get triggered. Aar takes priority

But do her buffs actually fail because of AAR? Not really. It’s immunity.

After just witnessing/realizing hit me with your best shot wasn’t coded correctly, it isn’t outside of the realm of possibility for the order of operations to get switched here and have them check immunities first.

It would be wrong. In order for something to not be applied because of immunities, it has to attempt to be applied first. So if a buff is applied, Titania is immune to it. But if the buff fails, there’s no need for titania’s immunity to prevent it. The order of operations can’t really be switched.

But how can you prevent something from occurring that wasn’t supposed to occur in the first place?

Follow up: does an awakened rintrah get his power gain vs Titania as well?

Regardless of how it works now I also think this is how it should work. It's very weird that ability accuracy reduction to gain buffs works on buff immune characters.

Very stupid example I'm sure but if ability accuracy comes before immunities then a character with increased offensive ability accuracy to place bleed should be able to bleed a bleed immune character? Please tell me where my logic is wrong because typing that felt very wrong lol

'come before ' just talks about the order of operations. It does not completely eliminate the other.

The problem is that we see immunity as se absolute effect that cannot be trumped. Think of it like a cleanse passive that only removes effects of a type instantly. Increased ability accuracy means it will try to place the effect but immunity will *remove* it after it is placed

Maratox

IvarTheBoneless said:

Havanaknight said:

Maratox said:

Havanaknight said:

AverageDesi said:

Havanaknight said:

I’m sure it can be argued either way, but to me Titania doesn’t fail to gain a buff because of Wiccan/neutralize. She fails because of her own abilities.

It's not about whose abilities it is . But about the order in which these get triggered. Aar takes priority

But do her buffs actually fail because of AAR? Not really. It’s immunity.

After just witnessing/realizing hit me with your best shot wasn’t coded correctly, it isn’t outside of the realm of possibility for the order of operations to get switched here and have them check immunities first.

It would be wrong. In order for something to not be applied because of immunities, it has to attempt to be applied first. So if a buff is applied, Titania is immune to it. But if the buff fails, there’s no need for titania’s immunity to prevent it. The order of operations can’t really be switched.

But how can you prevent something from occurring that wasn’t supposed to occur in the first place?

Follow up: does an awakened rintrah get his power gain vs Titania as well?

Regardless of how it works now I also think this is how it should work. It's very weird that ability accuracy reduction to gain buffs works on buff immune characters.

Very stupid example I'm sure but if ability accuracy comes before immunities then a character with increased offensive ability accuracy to place bleed should be able to bleed a bleed immune character? Please tell me where my logic is wrong because typing that felt very wrong lol

Your example can be easily explained. If titania has an increased chance to gain a buff, let’s say she’s on a 100% increased AAR node, she can bypass the neutralize. She still won’t gain the buff though because her immunity will prevent it. Increased ability accuracy doesn’t allow you to bypass immunities.

Mik81

It is a bad design, that's what it is. Bleed inmune can't get damage by bleed by any means, under no circumstances. Nothing changes this. Inmune to buffs should work the same, these champs should not been affected by any negative effects trough an immunity. Kabam didn't test it a lot, got into the game without really been noticed and now we have a bad design that makes no sense. It is what it is.

IvarTheBoneless

Mik81 said:

It is a bad design, that's what it is. Bleed inmune can't get damage by bleed by any means, under no circumstances. Nothing changes this. Inmune to buffs should work the same, these champs should not been affected by any negative effects trough an immunity. Kabam didn't test it a lot, got into the game without really been noticed and now we have a bad design that makes no sense. It is what it is.

I agree 100%

Maratox

Mik81 said:

It is a bad design, that's what it is. Bleed inmune can't get damage by bleed by any means, under no circumstances. Nothing changes this. Inmune to buffs should work the same, these champs should not been affected by any negative effects trough an immunity. Kabam didn't test it a lot, got into the game without really been noticed and now we have a bad design that makes no sense. It is what it is.

It’s not bad design. Annoying to fight, yes, but not bad design. Immunity to buffs still works the same way as immunity to bleed. You don’t gain any buffs, should they pass a check to be applied.

IvarTheBoneless

Maratox said:

Mik81 said:

It is a bad design, that's what it is. Bleed inmune can't get damage by bleed by any means, under no circumstances. Nothing changes this. Inmune to buffs should work the same, these champs should not been affected by any negative effects trough an immunity. Kabam didn't test it a lot, got into the game without really been noticed and now we have a bad design that makes no sense. It is what it is.

It’s not bad design. Annoying to fight, yes, but not bad design. Immunity to buffs still works the same way as immunity to bleed. You don’t gain any buffs, should they pass a check to be applied.

You don't gain any buffs, should they pass a check to be applied, so you don't get any incinerates. The check should apply to the ending situation and not just stop before examining immunities. That would be better design imo.

BostonSpidey124

The other difference between Titania and the other buff immune champs is she gets nothing when she fails to gain a buff. Ant-man gets pym particles, Red Guardian gets charges. So failing to get a buff does impact the character’s kit so I am ok with neutralize working there. But with Titania, there is nothing to gain so neutralize is preventing nothing so it shouldn’t work.

Maratox

IvarTheBoneless said:

Maratox said:

Mik81 said:

It is a bad design, that's what it is. Bleed inmune can't get damage by bleed by any means, under no circumstances. Nothing changes this. Inmune to buffs should work the same, these champs should not been affected by any negative effects trough an immunity. Kabam didn't test it a lot, got into the game without really been noticed and now we have a bad design that makes no sense. It is what it is.

It’s not bad design. Annoying to fight, yes, but not bad design. Immunity to buffs still works the same way as immunity to bleed. You don’t gain any buffs, should they pass a check to be applied.

You don't gain any buffs, should they pass a check to be applied, so you don't get any incinerates. The check should apply to the ending situation and not just stop before examining immunities. That would be better design imo.

That’s what you’re missing. If the buff passes the check to apply (no neutralize) then the immunity triggers. If the buff doesn’t pass the check to apply, you get incinerated. The check should NOT apply to the end situation no matter how much you want it to. And even if it did apply to the end situation, buff immune champions would actually be worse against Wiccan and rintrah because their buffs would ALWAYS fail due to their natural immunity. So your point is invalid.

AmaadAkira

Essentially, Kabam created buff immune champs to serve no other purpose than counter Mojo every now and then (that's all they have over nullify/fateseal/stagger immune science champs which there are many of).

Then they realized how stupid it is to create a champ that cannot benefit from buffs and also does not do anything else outside of counter Mojo (sometimes mystic dispersion), so they created Quick Silver, someone who is infinitely better than buff immune champs as he can benefit from buffs in incursions/BGs etc. but won't trigger dex, thus, can also counter Mojo AND counter neutralize champs.

Moneymike128

Maratox said:

IvarTheBoneless said:

Maratox said:

Mik81 said:

It is a bad design, that's what it is. Bleed inmune can't get damage by bleed by any means, under no circumstances. Nothing changes this. Inmune to buffs should work the same, these champs should not been affected by any negative effects trough an immunity. Kabam didn't test it a lot, got into the game without really been noticed and now we have a bad design that makes no sense. It is what it is.

It’s not bad design. Annoying to fight, yes, but not bad design. Immunity to buffs still works the same way as immunity to bleed. You don’t gain any buffs, should they pass a check to be applied.

You don't gain any buffs, should they pass a check to be applied, so you don't get any incinerates. The check should apply to the ending situation and not just stop before examining immunities. That would be better design imo.

That’s what you’re missing. If the buff passes the check to apply (no neutralize) then the immunity triggers. If the buff doesn’t pass the check to apply, you get incinerated. The check should NOT apply to the end situation no matter how much you want it to. And even if it did apply to the end situation, buff immune champions would actually be worse against Wiccan and rintrah because their buffs would ALWAYS fail due to their natural immunity. So your point is invalid.

Idk about Rintrah, but Wiccan's incinerate only triggers when the buff fails due to AAR or Wiccans ability, not the opponents natural immunity.

W/ regards to the order of operations, it makes sense that it would attempt to apply the effect before the immunity matters, but I do think that this is contrary to the intended purpose of having science champions that are buff immune in the first place. I'm not sure how I'd go about making it more intuitive.

You could make buff-immune champs also immune to neutralize, or (counterintuitively) give them +1000% buff ability accuracy, or have buff-immunity work differently from debuff immunity in that it never attempts to gain the buff in the first place for the immunity to trigger.... (Titania doesn't get an 'immune' popup when you trigger dexterity).

I can see based on the discussion that it is working as designed but I don't think this interaction is necessarily intended

Magrailothos

AmaadAkira said:

Essentially, Kabam created buff immune champs to serve no other purpose than counter Mojo every now and then (that's all they have over nullify/fateseal/stagger immune science champs which there are many of).

Then they realized how stupid it is to create a champ that cannot benefit from buffs and also does not do anything else outside of counter Mojo (sometimes mystic dispersion), so they created Quick Silver, someone who is infinitely better than buff immune champs as he can benefit from buffs in incursions/BGs etc. but won't trigger dex, thus, can also counter Mojo AND counter neutralize champs.

Buff immunity is better than Nullify immunity purely to counter Mojo?

Immunity to being Nullified won't help you if your opponent steals your buffs like Loki does, or prevents your buffs like Mephisto has done for years before Neutralise entered the game. And Dormammu can degenerate you for any buffs that expire at all, even if he didn't get to Nullify them.

Then there are several opponents who gain benefits from your buffs (like Mordo, Ronan, America Chavez and Guillotine).

Then there's nodes like Spite, Arcane Torrent, Icarus, Rising Sun, Burden of Might and so on.

I'd prefer buff immunity if my opponent is standing on one of those nodes, thanks.