voting for the titan pool should be based on progression

GroundedWisdom

Suros_moon said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Suros_moon said:

GroundedWisdom said:

That's like saying the only people who should participate in the Federal Election are the 1%.

Federal elections are open to everyone because everyone will be affected by laws at the federal level- hence everyone is a stakeholder in a federal election. A premium hero crystal is something that everyone should be able to vote on because everyone has access to them.

A local election only meaningfully affects the people in that county, hence we only allow people who are members of that county to vote on them. If you want a say in those elections you need to move there and become a stakeholder. A titan crystal is a reward that only late stage players open. Therefore it makes no sense for players who do not open that crystal and are hence not stakeholders to vote in that pool. You made a faulty comparison

No, I didn't. Players aren't static. They're capable of advancing. Not to mention the Shards will become more and more available in the future.
Crystals aren't exclusive to anyone, really. A Player that is below Paragon can still amass Dups, and therefore Shards.
All this is, is bitterness because the particular Champ people wanted wasn't voted in. If you want the ability to have a vote and a say, you need to be willing to accept when the majority vote isn't what you personally chose. That's a part of any election.

Exactly, when you progress you get to be a part of the vote. The barrier isn’t indefinite just like, if you want to vote in someone else’s election, you can move there and then participate because then you are a stakeholder. When you said “this is like only letting the 1% vote you made a faulty comparison, because you compared a situation where everyone actually is affected by a decision and thus being gatekept unfairly to one where the players literally cannot amass the resources they need in time and are thus NOT affected by the decision which is akin to a local election. You dont get to say “Ill move there next year so my vote should start counting now!” Anymore than you dont get to start collecting valiant crystals today because youre gonna take up your second r3 next week.

This is compounded by the fact that the titan pool is rotating hence there is a degree of urgency added to the mix. If you have literally no means of reasonably attaining the crystal by the time the champions have come and gone, your whims should not be determining. It doesn’t matter if more shards are available in the future- those champs are only in the pool NOW. Only players in the late game are going to see them there hence why THEY should be deciding who is in it

I can’t believe you are seriously suggesting that players who have literally booted up the game for an hour should have equal input on a time gated pool for the rarest crystal in game as players who are ACTUALLY going to be opening it. I already said that if the paragon players voted this way then whatever- we have to live with our own choice. My suspicion was that the vote would’ve resulted in different outcomes given the obvious mountains of experience they have relative to new players. Regardless of that outcome, you still shouldnt be letting conquerers ever get to choose what goes into the rarest item in game

How exactly are you going to gate a Poll on Twitter by progress?
The argument is that the only people who should have a vote are End-Game, and I'm sorry, but the Crystal does not belong to them alone. It's for any and all Players who have access to it. Which means anyone can gain access whether they currently have enough to open one or not.
We all have our own opinions on here and I respect that, but I take issue when people guise swaying a vote based on who will agree with them by the idea that the Crystal doesn't directly affect other Players.

Suros_moon

GroundedWisdom said:

Suros_moon said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Suros_moon said:

GroundedWisdom said:

That's like saying the only people who should participate in the Federal Election are the 1%.

Federal elections are open to everyone because everyone will be affected by laws at the federal level- hence everyone is a stakeholder in a federal election. A premium hero crystal is something that everyone should be able to vote on because everyone has access to them.

A local election only meaningfully affects the people in that county, hence we only allow people who are members of that county to vote on them. If you want a say in those elections you need to move there and become a stakeholder. A titan crystal is a reward that only late stage players open. Therefore it makes no sense for players who do not open that crystal and are hence not stakeholders to vote in that pool. You made a faulty comparison

No, I didn't. Players aren't static. They're capable of advancing. Not to mention the Shards will become more and more available in the future.
Crystals aren't exclusive to anyone, really. A Player that is below Paragon can still amass Dups, and therefore Shards.
All this is, is bitterness because the particular Champ people wanted wasn't voted in. If you want the ability to have a vote and a say, you need to be willing to accept when the majority vote isn't what you personally chose. That's a part of any election.

Exactly, when you progress you get to be a part of the vote. The barrier isn’t indefinite just like, if you want to vote in someone else’s election, you can move there and then participate because then you are a stakeholder. When you said “this is like only letting the 1% vote you made a faulty comparison, because you compared a situation where everyone actually is affected by a decision and thus being gatekept unfairly to one where the players literally cannot amass the resources they need in time and are thus NOT affected by the decision which is akin to a local election. You dont get to say “Ill move there next year so my vote should start counting now!” Anymore than you dont get to start collecting valiant crystals today because youre gonna take up your second r3 next week.

This is compounded by the fact that the titan pool is rotating hence there is a degree of urgency added to the mix. If you have literally no means of reasonably attaining the crystal by the time the champions have come and gone, your whims should not be determining. It doesn’t matter if more shards are available in the future- those champs are only in the pool NOW. Only players in the late game are going to see them there hence why THEY should be deciding who is in it

I can’t believe you are seriously suggesting that players who have literally booted up the game for an hour should have equal input on a time gated pool for the rarest crystal in game as players who are ACTUALLY going to be opening it. I already said that if the paragon players voted this way then whatever- we have to live with our own choice. My suspicion was that the vote would’ve resulted in different outcomes given the obvious mountains of experience they have relative to new players. Regardless of that outcome, you still shouldnt be letting conquerers ever get to choose what goes into the rarest item in game

How exactly are you going to gate a Poll on Twitter by progress?
The argument is that the only people who should have a vote are End-Game, and I'm sorry, but the Crystal does not belong to them alone. It's for any and all Players who have access to it. Which means anyone can gain access whether they currently have enough to open one or not.
We all have our own opinions on here and I respect that, but I take issue when people guise swaying a vote based on who will agree with them by the idea that the Crystal doesn't directly affect other Players.

Thats so easy: you dont put it on twitter. You use the exact same mechanism they did for the summoners choice and send it out to the people who are at X progression level by Y date.

I completely agree that when titan shards become more available the vote should be less restricted- because everyone becomes affected then. Why would I care if they get to vote if they are also opening the crystal? They have the exact same consequences as me.

The titan crystal belongs to everyone is a misleading statement. The titan crystal that exists right now today with the voted in champions will only exist for a limited time. By the time everyone else is opening it the crystal will have changed hence that crystal “belonging to them” is a farcry from being true. Thats why its so important for people who are actually end game to make this decision while it doesnt matter for those who cant open it. The only people who benefit or are harmed are those who can actually amass the resources within the time frame and thus THEY are the ones who should make the decision.

Again, the issue of the outcome of the vote is a different one and I am completely able to resign myself to the fact that if the stakeholders voted and came to a decision I disagree with so be it. My issue is that this vote was opened to people who WONT open it in time. That belittles the fact that late stage players bear the consequences of decisions from players who wont ever actually be affected by the vote they cast. That belittles the time and effort it takes to find yourself in the place where those rewards actually affect you if a conqueror whose account is literally years behind yours is reaching into your bowl to tell you what you get for dinner

SirGamesBond

Im endgame player.
I love Colossus, Shang chi and spot.

Suros_moon

SirGamesBond said:

Im endgame player.
I love Colossus, Shang chi and spot.

Thats awesome! My point doesn’t hinge on what endgame players like. It only points out that people who are not opening a crystal dont have a good reason to decide what is going inside it. You dont get to access 99% of the game by virtue of existing- you earn access to it by achieving certain milestones. Heck, today we saw a unit event that kabam only allowed paragons to complete even though incursions are something you can access extremely early on (this is something I disagree with personally because obviously every player with access to incursions should be a stakeholder in events tied to it in my opinion). Whats odd to me, is that everywhere in the game progression demarks what you do and dont have access to. Why did we suddenly decide that, for the single rarest crystal in game built quite literally for end game pursuit would the time sensitive options within it be equally dictated by people who (because it was a twitter poll of all things) have booted up the game for the first time that week. Heck, you could vote on it if you HAD NEVER PLAYED THE GAME. That is ridiculous to subject the progression of the those late stage players to people who will not be opening it in time to matter if they even play the game at all

SirGamesBond

We can't gate everything everywhere, It was one of thiers one time marketting thing.
Its unfortunate but nothing can be done now.
I don't even use twitter.

Suros_moon

SirGamesBond said:

We can't gate everything everywhere, It was one of thiers one time marketting thing.
Its unfortunate but nothing can be done now.
I don't even use twitter.

I think the larger point is for future polls which will dictate end game rewards we should probably restrict the voting pool- at least in special cases where the rewards change based on how soon you access the reward. It just baffles me that we would want fresh accounts voting on the rarest items in game when the vote they cast literally will not change anything for them at all. It would be like players in a Stone tier alliance voting on the nodes that ONLY masters tier alliances would have to clear in AW. Why would you relegate that decision equally to those players whose alliance’s literally cannot progress fast enough to reach that tier by the time the nodes have come and gone

altavista

Emilia90 said:

captain_rogers said:

Shang chi is definitely a insane champ and better attacker than kate in bgs
Kate is definitely the most valued champ currently because she is the best option for the most rewarding game mode currently. But none of the players are aware about necropolis when titan poll was launched, that's the reason shang chi got voted.
I believe in tech, omega sentinel and in science, obviously quicksilver over spot should've been voted
But for mutant who do you want to see instead of colossus?

Kate > Shang for BGs. Don’t see Shang on any deck anymore lmao. He’s still great though, but Kate also hard counters maestro now so her value is more apparent. Don’t know why people are trying to insinuate that Kate wasn’t an excellent champ before Necro, she was just new to the game and people didn’t realize how good she was

There’s the problem/answer right there.

If you want to limit it to TB+ or Paragon+, why not limit it even further?
By that logic, since lower progressions should be excluded since they aren’t opening Titan crystals, since higher ranked Paragon+ players will be opening a lot more Titan crystals, shouldn’t the top 100 players in the world be the only ones voting on it?

We get people arguing that Kate should have been chosen because of BGs and Necropolis. But there is a huge swath of players (Paragons even) who will never touch either of those modes. Why not exclude those players too, if you just want champions who excel in BGs in the Titan pool?

Once you start making exclusions, then it is a slippery slope to start making more and more exclusions.

At the end of the day, voting is supposed to be a fun community event. The only flaw was having it on Twitter where a decent amount of the community was unaware it was happening (so it is possible that lower progression players actually didn’t vote as much as the Paragon bloc, who would be generally more plugged into the game).

Suros_moon

altavista said:

Emilia90 said:

captain_rogers said:

Shang chi is definitely a insane champ and better attacker than kate in bgs
Kate is definitely the most valued champ currently because she is the best option for the most rewarding game mode currently. But none of the players are aware about necropolis when titan poll was launched, that's the reason shang chi got voted.
I believe in tech, omega sentinel and in science, obviously quicksilver over spot should've been voted
But for mutant who do you want to see instead of colossus?

Kate > Shang for BGs. Don’t see Shang on any deck anymore lmao. He’s still great though, but Kate also hard counters maestro now so her value is more apparent. Don’t know why people are trying to insinuate that Kate wasn’t an excellent champ before Necro, she was just new to the game and people didn’t realize how good she was

There’s the problem/answer right there.

If you want to limit it to TB+ or Paragon+, why not limit it even further?
By that logic, since lower progressions should be excluded since they aren’t opening Titan crystals, since higher ranked Paragon+ players will be opening a lot more Titan crystals, shouldn’t the top 100 players in the world be the only ones voting on it?

We get people arguing that Kate should have been chosen because of BGs and Necropolis. But there is a huge swath of players (Paragons even) who will never touch either of those modes. Why not exclude those players too, if you just want champions who excel in BGs in the Titan pool?

Once you start making exclusions, then it is a slippery slope to start making more and more exclusions.

At the end of the day, voting is supposed to be a fun community event. The only flaw was having it on Twitter where a decent amount of the community was unaware it was happening (so it is possible that lower progression players actually didn’t vote as much as the Paragon bloc, who would be generally more plugged into the game).

Its a slippery slope if you make it one, but there is no reason why you cant just say: Anyone with a reasonable means of obtaining a titan crystal in X amount of time will be allowed to vote. Obviously conquerors dont fit the bill. Neither do proven. Neither do uncollected. Id argue Cav players dont but Im open to being proven wrong. TBs have the most interesting case but Id say we’d need to look at the proportion of TBs who actually managed to open one to get an answer there. Paragons are uniquely situated in that a lot of their events naturally grant them acquisition means of those shards. Obviously, because its a crystal you’re only really meant to to start obtaining after reaching the highest progression tiers. Again, if it turns out TBs actually have comparable avenues to obtaining them in that timeframe then sure. Vote it up. But if the only TBs who ever touch the crystal are ones brute forcing it by opening ungodly numbers of crystals then I reject on its face that they needed to be considered in the vote

Voting is not fun because you hit the button and nothing happens to you or the game. Voting is fun because youre effecting an outcome with direct consequences on your own gameplay experience. For summoners choice the champion is something everyone will get to play therefore it makes sense everyone should vote. The titan crystal is time gated hence the vote ONLY effects those far enough along in progression to open one before the pool rotates out, hence it makes no sense for everyone to be involved.

Ill flip the question back to you: what do proven players lose by not being able to vote on what goes into the titan crystal exactly? Hitting the button?

Hector_1475

Someone doesn't have Kate (or Aegon) for Necropolis and woke up salty AF. LoL!
Yep, democracy has it's issues, what can you do...?

Suros_moon

altavista said:

Emilia90 said:

captain_rogers said:

Shang chi is definitely a insane champ and better attacker than kate in bgs
Kate is definitely the most valued champ currently because she is the best option for the most rewarding game mode currently. But none of the players are aware about necropolis when titan poll was launched, that's the reason shang chi got voted.
I believe in tech, omega sentinel and in science, obviously quicksilver over spot should've been voted
But for mutant who do you want to see instead of colossus?

Kate > Shang for BGs. Don’t see Shang on any deck anymore lmao. He’s still great though, but Kate also hard counters maestro now so her value is more apparent. Don’t know why people are trying to insinuate that Kate wasn’t an excellent champ before Necro, she was just new to the game and people didn’t realize how good she was

There’s the problem/answer right there.

If you want to limit it to TB+ or Paragon+, why not limit it even further?
By that logic, since lower progressions should be excluded since they aren’t opening Titan crystals, since higher ranked Paragon+ players will be opening a lot more Titan crystals, shouldn’t the top 100 players in the world be the only ones voting on it?

We get people arguing that Kate should have been chosen because of BGs and Necropolis. But there is a huge swath of players (Paragons even) who will never touch either of those modes. Why not exclude those players too, if you just want champions who excel in BGs in the Titan pool?

Once you start making exclusions, then it is a slippery slope to start making more and more exclusions.

At the end of the day, voting is supposed to be a fun community event. The only flaw was having it on Twitter where a decent amount of the community was unaware it was happening (so it is possible that lower progression players actually didn’t vote as much as the Paragon bloc, who would be generally more plugged into the game).

I dont know the answer to this but Ill ask you what you think because Im curious. If we polled all the paragons do you think they would rather have a smaller subset of paragons (even if it means only whales) at equal or higher levels of progression to themselves deciding what went into the titan, or literally every player who has touched the game with absolutely no regard for where they stood in the game. Personally Id choose the paragons in a heartbeat, but thats just because I dont trust leaving a vote in the hands of a community where the vast majority literally have no incentive to place good options into the pool. Moreover, Ive read global chat. Ive seen the questions asked there, and to think the people asking those questions, displaying the lack of understanding of the game they do, would be able to then participate in selecting the hardest to acquire item in the game is outrageous to me

altavista

Suros_moon said:

Voting is not fun because you hit the button and nothing happens to you or the game. Voting is fun because youre effecting an outcome with direct consequences on your own gameplay experience. For summoners choice the champion is something everyone will get to play therefore it makes sense everyone should vote. The titan crystal is time gated hence the vote ONLY effects those far enough along in progression to open one before the pool rotates out, hence it makes no sense for everyone to be involved.

Ill flip the question back to you: what do proven players lose by not being able to vote on what goes into the titan crystal exactly? Hitting the button?

1. They lose out on feeling like they aren't just second class citizens and are being thought of by Kabam. They already can't do very much since they have to focus on progressing through story content and building their roster. They can't do BGs, they can't do Abyss, they can't do other things as well. This would be one more thing that excludes them.
2. They lose out on being a part of the Community vote. They would have less reason to post on the forums and start dialogues, if they can't even vote. "Vote for Antman!" posts during the champion buff votes started some fun debates that all could participate in.

Aside from that, the feeling of 'fun' is highly subjective. Fun could be the whole experience - researching different candidates, arguing in support of your favorite, actually voting/clicking a button, and then seeing the outcome. Many people have fun regardless of whether or not their favorite wins.

If my work place has a vote each day on where to go for lunch, even if my choice doesn't get picked, the whole experience is still fun. Imagine if we excluded the interns from voting, just because they aren't paying for it. That kind of ruins the community aspect of the voting.

obsidiman

startropics said:

i don't like to exclude...

Goes on to explain who to exclude...
Simply beautiful.

Shiroihara

Suros_moon said:

altavista said:

Emilia90 said:

captain_rogers said:

Shang chi is definitely a insane champ and better attacker than kate in bgs
Kate is definitely the most valued champ currently because she is the best option for the most rewarding game mode currently. But none of the players are aware about necropolis when titan poll was launched, that's the reason shang chi got voted.
I believe in tech, omega sentinel and in science, obviously quicksilver over spot should've been voted
But for mutant who do you want to see instead of colossus?

Kate > Shang for BGs. Don’t see Shang on any deck anymore lmao. He’s still great though, but Kate also hard counters maestro now so her value is more apparent. Don’t know why people are trying to insinuate that Kate wasn’t an excellent champ before Necro, she was just new to the game and people didn’t realize how good she was

There’s the problem/answer right there.

If you want to limit it to TB+ or Paragon+, why not limit it even further?
By that logic, since lower progressions should be excluded since they aren’t opening Titan crystals, since higher ranked Paragon+ players will be opening a lot more Titan crystals, shouldn’t the top 100 players in the world be the only ones voting on it?

We get people arguing that Kate should have been chosen because of BGs and Necropolis. But there is a huge swath of players (Paragons even) who will never touch either of those modes. Why not exclude those players too, if you just want champions who excel in BGs in the Titan pool?

Once you start making exclusions, then it is a slippery slope to start making more and more exclusions.

At the end of the day, voting is supposed to be a fun community event. The only flaw was having it on Twitter where a decent amount of the community was unaware it was happening (so it is possible that lower progression players actually didn’t vote as much as the Paragon bloc, who would be generally more plugged into the game).

I dont know the answer to this but Ill ask you what you think because Im curious. If we polled all the paragons do you think they would rather have a smaller subset of paragons (even if it means only whales) at equal or higher levels of progression to themselves deciding what went into the titan, or literally every player who has touched the game with absolutely no regard for where they stood in the game. Personally Id choose the paragons in a heartbeat, but thats just because I dont trust leaving a vote in the hands of a community where the vast majority literally have no incentive to place good options into the pool. Moreover, Ive read global chat. Ive seen the questions asked there, and to think the people asking those questions, displaying the lack of understanding of the game they do, would be able to then participate in selecting the hardest to acquire item in the game is outrageous to me

What exactly is so catastrophic about that vote? People are using 6* Kate just fine from what I see. Sure, you'd be disappointed to pull Colossus, but what else is new?
Many are already amassing 7* champions (I have 24 and nowhere near the top dogs) so I don't think this is a hill to die on.

Vanitelia

Some people played the long game with their vote, ensuring that their champ was included in the game sooner. I am one of those Colossus owners. I voted Toad. I don't mind the pull to be honest. He'll be duped eventually. Are there better champs? Absolutely. It's a bummer to see some of those duped Silks or Photons or the flashier champs on other accounts. Pull-envy at it's finest.

There will always be a risk of pulling someone you don't want. Thankfully, as 7 stars, the increased power levels allows you to throw them into content and test them yourself. Formulate your own opinion on a champ instead of relying so heavily on videos. There are champs who benefit the most from high sigs, but that doesn't mean they aren't effective without them. Same for the dupe. Personally, I like seeing some of those old-school champs being r3'd. Brings variety to the game.

Suros_moon

altavista said:

Suros_moon said:

Voting is not fun because you hit the button and nothing happens to you or the game. Voting is fun because youre effecting an outcome with direct consequences on your own gameplay experience. For summoners choice the champion is something everyone will get to play therefore it makes sense everyone should vote. The titan crystal is time gated hence the vote ONLY effects those far enough along in progression to open one before the pool rotates out, hence it makes no sense for everyone to be involved.

Ill flip the question back to you: what do proven players lose by not being able to vote on what goes into the titan crystal exactly? Hitting the button?

1. They lose out on feeling like they aren't just second class citizens and are being thought of by Kabam. They already can't do very much since they have to focus on progressing through story content and building their roster. They can't do BGs, they can't do Abyss, they can't do other things as well. This would be one more thing that excludes them.
2. They lose out on being a part of the Community vote. They would have less reason to post on the forums and start dialogues, if they can't even vote. "Vote for Antman!" posts during the champion buff votes started some fun debates that all could participate in.

Aside from that, the feeling of 'fun' is highly subjective. Fun could be the whole experience - researching different candidates, arguing in support of your favorite, actually voting/clicking a button, and then seeing the outcome. Many people have fun regardless of whether or not their favorite wins.

If my work place has a vote each day on where to go for lunch, even if my choice doesn't get picked, the whole experience is still fun. Imagine if we excluded the interns from voting, just because they aren't paying for it. That kind of ruins the community aspect of the voting.

Again you are conflating things where the outcome actually affects you to ones where it does not.

1) Are they second class citizens because my daily crystal is a valiant one while theirs is proven? Or are they further behind in progression and hence privy to receive different access to different things. You arent allowed to access act 8 before act 7- are people in act 7 second class citizens all of a sudden? You’re inserting a conflict where there is none. Heck, even if I grant you it, the “feeling” of being slighted because they didnt vote on something they literally cannot open and will have been changed 10 times over by the time they can is a pretty silly complaint in the face of the actual concerns that end game players might have different priorities and increased experience which may cause their decisions to be vastly different from the community at large. Given that the community at large IS NOT THE ONE OPENING IT, why on earth would you defer to their opinion on what goes inside of it?

2) A champion buff affects EVERYONE, because EVERYONE can pull a champ in a basic crystal. Thats why everybody should get to vote on what happens in that scenario. In the titan crystals, the people who enter the pool are there for a limited amount of time, so, as of right now, only a small handful of players will actually be affected by the outcome of the vote. A conqueror is NOT affected in any way by the outcome while every single paragon is. To use your own analogy against you, if you weren’t yet hired at a company do you think you should be voting on where its employees eat? The answer is obviously no. Once you DO become part of the group that os affected by the outcome of the vote you THEN get to vote

And finally, I have said three times over now, the outcome isnt the big problem. The problem is that the vote should be held by people who are actually affected by the outcome not by randoms tuning in for literally no reason. Do i think the outcomes will be better if thats the case? I dont know, but I have a strong suspicion that end game players will vote within their best interests because they are the ones who actually have to open the crystals while someone who is proven has NO incentive to vote in any logical way whatsoever, because they will never see that pool by the time they have gotten around to forming one