Respect Due on WoW response on community feedback...

Bugmat78

Ironman3000 said:

Bugmat78 said:

Ironman3000 said:

They're changing nothing and haven't agreed to make changes in the future to energy. 1 point is not the gift you seem to think it is.

It isn't the best response but I personally had resigned myself to not seeing any response given Jax's earlier post. If they actually tune this fight down for the Gauntlet segment of this end of the year, and use current feedback to gauge how (over)tuned the upcoming fights are, I can do with missing this specific objective.

This is fight 1 in a year year-long event. You're putting way too much faith in Miike's ability to judge the future difficulty of fights.

Fair - it's the game team and their judgement I'm hoping to see sensible fights from here on in. The energy cost is still a big mistake but it's seems to be one of these if-i-go-back-on-this-I'll-lose-face situations

FunnyDude

Kabam Crashed said:

FunnyDude said:

There is no agreement within your team? The announcement says energy consumption issue will be fixed in upcoming tasks, but you are still saying this is reasonable.

You need to read the post again. Nowhere does the post say we will "fix" energy requirements. It says we will use Winter of Woe to assess the situation. It is impossible to determine the impact from a change like this to the energy economy in one day.

My bad, I saw the word “energy” then skip the rest, though it’s the first time to see terminology “energy economy “, just can’t imagine what kind of disaster can happen if this map consumes 1 energy instead of 5, hurting revenue? making players angry? Making war unsustainable? Crashing the game?

phillgreen

@DrZola is 100% on point.

Syndicated

Kabam Miike said:

DrZola said:

Kabam Miike said:

Musikmen said:

It doesn't address the fact they acknowledge the regeneration is too much. Add a heal block? Something? Doesn't seem like enough to me

That eliminates the Healing completely,. which is still a part of the challenge. Yes, it's harder than we might like, but it's not impossible, and the point of this content is to be hard and to make you explore the depths of your roster for the right counters. That is a part of Absorbing Man, and for the most part, what we're more worried about is how he'll be in the Gauntlet when you can't bring a counter for just him and have to worry about the whole quest.

Easier to explore the depths of my roster if it doesn’t cost me 10 energy each time.

Dr. Zola

It would, but we're not trying to make things easy in what is meant to be end-game content. You can get 7 runs in every time you're energy is full, and if you do that just once per day, that is up to 98 attempts, if you so choose to do it.

You are the Kabam soul without doubt dear Miike ☺️

Wozzle007

So I know I know I’m gonna have to use revives. That’s a cost to my account. I’ve taken my 6* Sandman to R1 to R3, another cost to my account. That’s fine, this is supposed to be hard content.

But this energy cost really is ridiculous. How many different ways do you want my accounts resources to be drained completing this?

It shouldn’t be easy? Ok it’s not easy. It’s really really hard. You’ve already nerfed revive farming, that’s gone. Restricting the number of times we can attempt is supposed to trivialise the it now as well. What will the energy cost for 8.4 be? 15 energy a tile?

startropics

Kabam Miike said:

Musikmen said:

It doesn't address the fact they acknowledge the regeneration is too much. Add a heal block? Something? Doesn't seem like enough to me

That eliminates the Healing completely,. which is still a part of the challenge. Yes, it's harder than we might like, but it's not impossible, and the point of this content is to be hard and to make you explore the depths of your roster for the right counters. That is a part of Absorbing Man, and for the most part, what we're more worried about is how he'll be in the Gauntlet when you can't bring a counter for just him and have to worry about the whole quest.

this fight was the hardest since OG 6.2 champion where we have to play perfect or can't finish at all. this is good for the top handful of players who enjoy extremely difficult content for the flex, but not for everyone else.

i have an established roster so counters weren't the problem but the fight itself was. devs doesn't like overpowered champions because they eat up too much "design space" and i feel this challenge is that way for players where there is no breathing room to be able to show skill.

Kabam Miike said:

DrZola said:

Kabam Miike said:

Musikmen said:

It doesn't address the fact they acknowledge the regeneration is too much. Add a heal block? Something? Doesn't seem like enough to me

That eliminates the Healing completely,. which is still a part of the challenge. Yes, it's harder than we might like, but it's not impossible, and the point of this content is to be hard and to make you explore the depths of your roster for the right counters. That is a part of Absorbing Man, and for the most part, what we're more worried about is how he'll be in the Gauntlet when you can't bring a counter for just him and have to worry about the whole quest.

Easier to explore the depths of my roster if it doesn’t cost me 10 energy each time.

Dr. Zola

It would, but we're not trying to make things easy in what is meant to be end-game content. You can get 7 runs in every time you're energy is full, and if you do that just once per day, that is up to 98 attempts, if you so choose to do it.

has the definition of end game content changed? because this is far and above what endgamers are typically used to. abs was designed for speedrunner and perfectionist types where there is zero room for mistakes. not everyone is MSD.

Mackey

MrSakuragi said:

Mackey said:

What is their logic behind the energy increase? I saw Jax said they explained why in the livestream but I can't find any write up of it and I won't be watching any of the livestreams. I can't wrap my.head around the energy cost. That alone is going to stop me.playing it

It was around the concept that to earn something in the game, there needs to be a cost to the player

Thanks. Flawed logic, they've probably just put off a large number of people playing it altogether 😂😂

leftykiller8

Kabam Miike said:

It would, but we're not trying to make things easy in what is meant to be end-game content. You can get 7 runs in every time you're energy is full, and if you do that just once per day, that is up to 98 attempts, if you so choose to do it.

@Kabam Miike I personally love this type of content. I’m not very skilled. It’s super frustrating, but also the most engaging content that MCOC has. Now I could be wrong, but I’m pretty confident that Summer of Pain had no energy requirement, and that is part of what made it so great. You could go in over and over again, exploring different options, pushing your abilities and champs to their limits. I honestly kept going back in after I already completed the objectives to try out different champs, and to grow my skill. The high energy cost alone makes this content unenjoyable, especially with the Brute Force node making the AI ridiculously passive. (I seriously lost 80% of my health and died of degen one time because Abs-man would only walk forward, dash back, then hold block until I died. Talk about a waste of an hour’s worth of energy.)

I can understand that this content should cost resources in some way. But how is time not a resource? Instead of this, I could spend hours mindlessly grinding arena, or auto-fighting through low end EQ for units. I would much rather spend it on Winter of Woe, but it’s honestly not worth it with the energy cost as is. And the fact that the most difficult, fun, and engaging content has such a high energy gate, kills my motivation to play entirely. Summer of Pain had no or little energy cost, and that was when revive farming was very active. Revive farming is now gone, and this content is arguably more difficult, so why the high energy cost? I would’ve spent more time playing your game, trying to get that perfect She-Hulk run, but instead just regular Hulk-smashed it in 5 revives, because the energy cost is ridiculous. I’ve been typing up this post on my phone for the last 30 minutes instead of playing your game, for the same reason. The high energy cost on it alone is causing disengagement from the game, which as y’all have said before, is not something you want. You want player engagement. So please make the best decision for the game and get rid of the high energy requirement. 2 energy to get to the boss isn’t bad. I’d prefer none, but that’s because I think this content is great for the players, precisely because it’s so difficult.

Vegeta9001

Siliyo said:

Kabam Miike said:

DrZola said:

Kabam Miike said:

Musikmen said:

It doesn't address the fact they acknowledge the regeneration is too much. Add a heal block? Something? Doesn't seem like enough to me

That eliminates the Healing completely,. which is still a part of the challenge. Yes, it's harder than we might like, but it's not impossible, and the point of this content is to be hard and to make you explore the depths of your roster for the right counters. That is a part of Absorbing Man, and for the most part, what we're more worried about is how he'll be in the Gauntlet when you can't bring a counter for just him and have to worry about the whole quest.

Easier to explore the depths of my roster if it doesn’t cost me 10 energy each time.

Dr. Zola

It would, but we're not trying to make things easy in what is meant to be end-game content. You can get 7 runs in every time you're energy is full, and if you do that just once per day, that is up to 98 attempts, if you so choose to do it.

L response. Shows how out of touch you guys are, especially with how the community’s responding. You’re acting like this is the only thing to do this month.

I mean with how abysmal the rift rewards are, besides EQ it is.

Vegeta9001

Axew said:

klobberintyme said:

Unsolicited advice:





Start easier next time.

I’d prefer it if the community didn’t act as testers for new content. There is no way someone at Kabam actually tried soloing this fight with a robot champ and thought, “Yea, this seems reasonable for the average player”

It's what happens when a chunk of your creator program are top 0.001% of players. I've played in masters wars, done every piece of content on release, even I find the robot objective way too excessive. Brute force, unstoppable, obnoxious amounts of block damage,regen and passive AI. When you're allowing input and testing from guys that could likely do the objective with 4*s thats what turns the content from endgame content to content aimed at maybe sub 50 players.

Like i said in the original thread, I did get them down, with a 6* boosted with 7 revives but with options that limited and no option that counters the fight properly, it's just silly. Did anyone solo the fight with a 6*, and how much did the stars have to align for that to happen?

On a tangent though, I solo'd with a 6* r3 sandman and one revive with a 7* Hulk.

Tony_5tank

leftykiller8 said:

Kabam Miike said:

It would, but we're not trying to make things easy in what is meant to be end-game content. You can get 7 runs in every time you're energy is full, and if you do that just once per day, that is up to 98 attempts, if you so choose to do it.

@Kabam Miike I personally love this type of content. I’m not very skilled. It’s super frustrating, but also the most engaging content that MCOC has. Now I could be wrong, but I’m pretty confident that Summer of Pain had no energy requirement, and that is part of what made it so great. You could go in over and over again, exploring different options, pushing your abilities and champs to their limits. I honestly kept going back in after I already completed the objectives to try out different champs, and to grow my skill. The high energy cost alone makes this content unenjoyable, especially with the Brute Force node making the AI ridiculously passive. (I seriously lost 80% of my health and died of degen one time because Abs-man would only walk forward, dash back, then hold block until I died. Talk about a waste of an hour’s worth of energy.)

I can understand that this content should cost resources in some way. But how is time not a resource? Instead of this, I could spend hours mindlessly grinding arena, or auto-fighting through low end EQ for units. I would much rather spend it on Winter of Woe, but it’s honestly not worth it with the energy cost as is. And the fact that the most difficult, fun, and engaging content has such a high energy gate, kills my motivation to play entirely. Summer of Pain had no or little energy cost, and that was when revive farming was very active. Revive farming is now gone, and this content is arguably more difficult, so why the high energy cost? I would’ve spent more time playing your game, trying to get that perfect She-Hulk run, but instead just regular Hulk-smashed it in 5 revives, because the energy cost is ridiculous. I’ve been typing up this post on my phone for the last 30 minutes instead of playing your game, for the same reason. The high energy cost on it alone is causing disengagement from the game, which as y’all have said before, is not something you want. You want player engagement. So please make the best decision for the game and get rid of the high energy requirement. 2 energy to get to the boss isn’t bad. I’d prefer none, but that’s because I think this content is great for the players, precisely because it’s so difficult.

If you’re explaining you’ve lost

Jazz_Messenger

Vegeta9001 said:

Axew said:

klobberintyme said:

Unsolicited advice:





Start easier next time.

I’d prefer it if the community didn’t act as testers for new content. There is no way someone at Kabam actually tried soloing this fight with a robot champ and thought, “Yea, this seems reasonable for the average player”

It's what happens when a chunk of your creator program are top 0.001% of players. I've played in masters wars, done every piece of content on release, even I find the robot objective way too excessive. Brute force, unstoppable, obnoxious amounts of block damage,regen and passive AI. When you're allowing input and testing from guys that could likely do the objective with 4*s thats what turns the content from endgame content to content aimed at maybe sub 50 players.

Like i said in the original thread, I did get them down, with a 6* boosted with 7 revives but with options that limited and no option that counters the fight properly, it's just silly. Did anyone solo the fight with a 6*, and how much did the stars have to align for that to happen?

On a tangent though, I solo'd with a 6* r3 sandman and one revive with a 7* Hulk.

What is a Valiant player to do if their highest Sandman is 4*? I don’t care about solo or mind using revives. I don’t know other viable options.

Maratox

What respect is due here? Kabam put out a fight that in and of itself is far too difficult to be fun, and tacked on an objective that they themselves clearly did not try. It’s not even the bare minimum that’s due that they essentially null and void the objective. This entire fight is reminiscent of variant 8 venompool boss. They didn’t even take the time to do the simple math to see that the fight was way overtuned for its best counters let alone with suboptimal objectives. I feel like Kabam are too focused on the whales of the game. Yes they complain that things are too easy, but like all games they’re not the average player. Everything is going to be too easy for them because if it’s not then it’s too hard for the majority of the player base, including some of the higher tier summoners. And on top of that, if the whales and best of the best are saying it’s not fun, you’ve really missed the mark.

ahmynuts

I think what Seatin said in his video was on the mark. This is way too sweaty for average paragon and valiant players and it is not fun. Separate stuff like this into its own thing and have the rewards be badges, titles or exclusive things that are for the hardest of tryhards and let everyone else have fun events that will help us progress

Omega6

This is a business after all. IMO players that are end game users wanted harder content got it, players wanted more rewards got it. I get where Kabam is coming from, they could have made all rewards behind a paywall easily. That will be somewhat bad for business they will lose players at the same time but they need to have a way to upkeep the game as well (I get it). their rewards do compensate for the harder content it’s not made to be easy for the rewards and that’s where a lot of players are missing that point. Now I’m not saying I agree w/and see eye to eye w/kabam on things but I get it. The job is to use up the resources they provide us. Look at this month EQ nodes (holy ****). And we can argue about the energy (do I agree w/5 bars no) but Kabam has to have a way to get something in return back for the rewards they dished out. I’m not a great player by any means but I can hold my own. I just want the player base to see this is a business after all. @Kabam Miike ✊🏽

Maratox

Omega6 said:

This is a business after all. IMO players that are end game users wanted harder content got it, players wanted more rewards got it. I get where Kabam is coming from, they could have made all rewards behind a paywall easily. That will be somewhat bad for business they will lose players at the same time but they need to have a way to upkeep the game as well (I get it). their rewards do compensate for the harder content it’s not made to be easy for the rewards and that’s where a lot of players are missing that point. Now I’m not saying I agree w/and see eye to eye w/kabam on things but I get it. The job is to use up the resources they provide us. Look at this month EQ nodes (holy ****). And we can argue about the energy (do I agree w/5 bars no) but Kabam has to have a way to get something in return back for the rewards they dished out. I’m not a great player by any means but I can hold my own. I just want the player base to see this is a business after all. @Kabam Miike ✊🏽

This response totally missed the point of everything.

1. Yes it’s a business. A business that does not exist solely on the backs of the best players. You have brand new paragons coming in who have access to this and struggle to use any champ to complete it with items.
2. Yes you should use items to do it. You shouldn’t always be able to solo. But you shouldn’t be using 12 revives because the defender has near unavoidable regeneration that heals 10% of his max health before you can stop it. If you think EQ is too hard you really shouldn’t be commenting on this imo.
3. You think we owe Kabam for the rewards they give us? No. Again, this game does not exist without us. If the entire player base does not find something fun then it’s bad, it doesn’t matter if you think Kabam needs to “get something in return for the rewards they dished out.”

I mean this respectfully but this response completely missed the mark

Bugmat78

Maratox said:

What respect is due here? Kabam put out a fight that in and of itself is far too difficult to be fun, and tacked on an objective that they themselves clearly did not try. It’s not even the bare minimum that’s due that they essentially null and void the objective. This entire fight is reminiscent of variant 8 venompool boss. They didn’t even take the time to do the simple math to see that the fight was way overtuned for its best counters let alone with suboptimal objectives. I feel like Kabam are too focused on the whales of the game. Yes they complain that things are too easy, but like all games they’re not the average player. Everything is going to be too easy for them because if it’s not then it’s too hard for the majority of the player base, including some of the higher tier summoners. And on top of that, if the whales and best of the best are saying it’s not fun, you’ve really missed the mark.

Some respect was due simply because they responded quickly within 2 days) and actually gave a partial solution.. Most cases this would have gone on like this for another week or until the timer was up.

Clearly they do want engagement in not just this fight but the entire year event so they are trying to get us to continue playing after this particular road block of a fight and objective.

I do and have agreed that since respect is still not given for the energy cost debacle, and putting what they admitted was probably one of the hardest fights first rather than much later in the event.

Viper198787

Omega6 said:

This is a business after all. IMO players that are end game users wanted harder content got it, players wanted more rewards got it. I get where Kabam is coming from, they could have made all rewards behind a paywall easily. That will be somewhat bad for business they will lose players at the same time but they need to have a way to upkeep the game as well (I get it). their rewards do compensate for the harder content it’s not made to be easy for the rewards and that’s where a lot of players are missing that point. Now I’m not saying I agree w/and see eye to eye w/kabam on things but I get it. The job is to use up the resources they provide us. Look at this month EQ nodes (holy ****). And we can argue about the energy (do I agree w/5 bars no) but Kabam has to have a way to get something in return back for the rewards they dished out. I’m not a great player by any means but I can hold my own. I just want the player base to see this is a business after all. @Kabam Miike ✊🏽

I don’t really think you understand how business works. A business is supposed to provide a good or service that the customer wants. A business cannot sustain itself, it relies on the consumer to keep it going. Do you think a business can survive by grossly overcharging customers? What if it provides poor quality goods or services? Not a chance. This is a poor quality service that is overcharging with energy. With all due respect, your idea of business ain’t worth a velvet picture of a whale and a dolphin getting it on.

Omega6

Maratox said:

Omega6 said:

This is a business after all. IMO players that are end game users wanted harder content got it, players wanted more rewards got it. I get where Kabam is coming from, they could have made all rewards behind a paywall easily. That will be somewhat bad for business they will lose players at the same time but they need to have a way to upkeep the game as well (I get it). their rewards do compensate for the harder content it’s not made to be easy for the rewards and that’s where a lot of players are missing that point. Now I’m not saying I agree w/and see eye to eye w/kabam on things but I get it. The job is to use up the resources they provide us. Look at this month EQ nodes (holy ****). And we can argue about the energy (do I agree w/5 bars no) but Kabam has to have a way to get something in return back for the rewards they dished out. I’m not a great player by any means but I can hold my own. I just want the player base to see this is a business after all. @Kabam Miike ✊🏽

This response totally missed the point of everything.

1. Yes it’s a business. A business that does not exist solely on the backs of the best players. You have brand new paragons coming in who have access to this and struggle to use any champ to complete it with items. (That’s alway been a consistent since the beginning of the game)
2. Yes you should use items to do it. You shouldn’t always be able to solo. But you shouldn’t be using 12 revives because the defender has near unavoidable regeneration that heals 10% of his max health before you can stop it. If you think EQ is too hard you really shouldn’t be commenting on this imo.( I get that, that’s I said I don’t always see eye to eye w/kabam, I never said EQ being hard I’m already done w/TB I was making a statement about the nodes itself)
3. You think we owe Kabam for the rewards they give us? No. Again, this game does not exist without us. If the entire player base does not find something fun then it’s bad, it doesn’t matter if you think Kabam needs to “get something in return for the rewards they dished out.”(never said nothing about owing Kabam, when we use items/resources that’s what they want at the end)

I mean this respectfully but this response completely missed the mark

World Eater

Kabam Miike said:

DrZola said:

Kabam Miike said:

Musikmen said:

It doesn't address the fact they acknowledge the regeneration is too much. Add a heal block? Something? Doesn't seem like enough to me

That eliminates the Healing completely,. which is still a part of the challenge. Yes, it's harder than we might like, but it's not impossible, and the point of this content is to be hard and to make you explore the depths of your roster for the right counters. That is a part of Absorbing Man, and for the most part, what we're more worried about is how he'll be in the Gauntlet when you can't bring a counter for just him and have to worry about the whole quest.

Easier to explore the depths of my roster if it doesn’t cost me 10 energy each time.

Dr. Zola

It would, but we're not trying to make things easy in what is meant to be end-game content. You can get 7 runs in every time you're energy is full, and if you do that just once per day, that is up to 98 attempts, if you so choose to do it.

I’d love to know if you or any other Kabam employee has tried this fight and if so, has it been fun to waste energy refills on practice fights ?

Cuz it hadn’t been fun to me to use up resources and get no where or get nothing accomplished. It’s frustrating and the opposite of fun.

altavista

If feels like the fight is designed to showcase how good Sandman is after the slander he received during the Banquet.
I had a good time with a 6R4 Sandman (and a few revives and health potions)

But the combination of nodes means the fight is too overtuned in limiting other viable options.

Letting Paragons skip the Robot objective and still have a chance at max rewards, is a good gesture, but it potentially shows flaws in how Kabam is designing their fights. Their fights and objective definitely needs to be tested more prior to release.

I didn't expect Kabam to be able to change the fight mid-release without making it too easy, but hopefully they are able to adapt for the second fight at least.

Mr_Nandan

The final word- i think Kabam isn't user friendly anymore. Making it more difficult than before.

klobberintyme

Axew said:

klobberintyme said:

Unsolicited advice:





Start easier next time.

I’d prefer it if the community didn’t act as testers for new content. There is no way someone at Kabam actually tried soloing this fight with a robot champ and thought, “Yea, this seems reasonable for the average player”

Kabam:

Ming_Mow129

Well the fact is that not only is the energy cost way too much but then you have to deal with the most insane node combination then the lack there of options for the objectives and then we have to deal with input drops that you've neglected what seems like forever. So what you guys at kabam are doing is silly and just plain out wrong. A happy community is good for business I'm just saying. #getittogether (capiche)

Musikmen

Kabam Miike said:

Musikmen said:

It doesn't address the fact they acknowledge the regeneration is too much. Add a heal block? Something? Doesn't seem like enough to me

That eliminates the Healing completely,. which is still a part of the challenge. Yes, it's harder than we might like, but it's not impossible, and the point of this content is to be hard and to make you explore the depths of your roster for the right counters. That is a part of Absorbing Man, and for the most part, what we're more worried about is how he'll be in the Gauntlet when you can't bring a counter for just him and have to worry about the whole quest.

Thank you for the reply - I understand completely the expectation for endgame content. One concern is that it appears there are only a handful or so of viable counters (understandably part of the challenge) and with the node interactions and regen seems to make it over the top. I'm a reasonably skilled player and have a fairly good roster though not expansive. I enjoyed Necropolis and in particular thought it was challenging but also fun. I primarily play MCOC because it is fun. To me this feels completely skewed away from that. I hope that the team will consider something else to help mitigate this beyond waiting until the Gauntlet.