“Enhanced power gain” node bug?

Squidopus

I was doing the AW Showcase and brought in Leader to deal with Chavez (and Mojo). However, when I was using him against Chavez I found that she was gaining power from MD despite having 5+ withers which should shut it down, and only once I hit the max of 10 did she gain no power instead of having her power gain reversed. The only explanation I could come up with was the “enhanced power gain” node, but the description states it grants +100% power gain potency, not +100% ability power rate, so it shouldn’t cancel out wither like that. Is this a bug? I don’t recall it always working like that, and even if it did that would make the description misleading.

Magrailothos

This is fine.

Enhanced Power Gain increases Power Gain Potency by +100%

Let's see what Wither does...


This seems completely fine. This is how abilities that affect Potencies work: they stack, they don't multiply.

Chavez starts the fight with 100% Ability Power Potency, which increases to 200% Ability Power Potency thanks to the node.

With five Withers, Leader inflicts -100% Ability Power Potency
- At this point, Chavez has 200-100 = 100% Ability Power

With ten Withers, Leader inflicts -200% Ability Power Potency
- At this point, Chavez has 200-200 = 0% Ability Power, and is finally shut down.

Squidopus

Magrailothos said:

This is fine.

Enhanced Power Gain increases Power Gain Potency by +100%

Let's see what Wither does...


This seems completely fine. This is how abilities that affect Potencies work: they stack, they don't multiply.

Chavez starts the fight with 100% Ability Power Potency, which increases to 200% Ability Power Potency thanks to the node.

With five Withers, Leader inflicts -100% Ability Power Potency
- At this point, Chavez has 200-100 = 100% Ability Power

With ten Withers, Leader inflicts -200% Ability Power Potency
- At this point, Chavez has 200-200 = 0% Ability Power, and is finally shut down.

I disagree. “Power gain potency” and “ability power rate” are two different things, two different multipliers. The “enhanced power gain” node, based on its description, modifies the former. Withers modify the latter. If Hyperion had an intensify or some other modifier that increased the potency of his power gain buffs, he’d gain more power but I wouldn’t need more withers to shut his power gain down, because withers (and any other form of ability power rate modification) are using a separate multiplier.

Bendy

Its due to aspect of evolutions after a while 100% reducing power gain with 100% already u cant reduce quick enough u basically dont want chavez to heavy

Squidopus

Bendy said:

Its due to aspect of evolutions after a while 100% reducing power gain with 100% already u cant reduce quick enough u basically dont want chavez to heavy

This is also incorrect. Nothing in aspect of evolution modifies either power gain potency or ability power rate. It increases combat power rate, but that’s a blatantly different thing. Chavez getting more power when struck doesn’t affect the burst of power she gets when a buff expires via mystic dispersion.

Magrailothos

Squidopus said:

Magrailothos said:

This is fine.

Enhanced Power Gain increases Power Gain Potency by +100%

Let's see what Wither does...


This seems completely fine. This is how abilities that affect Potencies work: they stack, they don't multiply.

Chavez starts the fight with 100% Ability Power Potency, which increases to 200% Ability Power Potency thanks to the node.

With five Withers, Leader inflicts -100% Ability Power Potency
- At this point, Chavez has 200-100 = 100% Ability Power

With ten Withers, Leader inflicts -200% Ability Power Potency
- At this point, Chavez has 200-200 = 0% Ability Power, and is finally shut down.

I disagree. “Power gain potency” and “ability power rate” are two different things, two different multipliers. The “enhanced power gain” node, based on its description, modifies the former. Withers modify the latter. If Hyperion had an intensify or some other modifier that increased the potency of his power gain buffs, he’d gain more power but I wouldn’t need more withers to shut his power gain down, because withers (and any other form of ability power rate modification) are using a separate multiplier.

I've literally written out exactly how the maths works, and it correlates perfectly with what you're seeing.

Disagree all you like, mate. Wanting it to be different doesn't make you right.

Go ahead and repost it the Bugs forum if you want; but I really don't think it'll get a lot of traction.

Squidopus

Magrailothos said:

Squidopus said:

Magrailothos said:

This is fine.

Enhanced Power Gain increases Power Gain Potency by +100%

Let's see what Wither does...


This seems completely fine. This is how abilities that affect Potencies work: they stack, they don't multiply.

Chavez starts the fight with 100% Ability Power Potency, which increases to 200% Ability Power Potency thanks to the node.

With five Withers, Leader inflicts -100% Ability Power Potency
- At this point, Chavez has 200-100 = 100% Ability Power

With ten Withers, Leader inflicts -200% Ability Power Potency
- At this point, Chavez has 200-200 = 0% Ability Power, and is finally shut down.

I disagree. “Power gain potency” and “ability power rate” are two different things, two different multipliers. The “enhanced power gain” node, based on its description, modifies the former. Withers modify the latter. If Hyperion had an intensify or some other modifier that increased the potency of his power gain buffs, he’d gain more power but I wouldn’t need more withers to shut his power gain down, because withers (and any other form of ability power rate modification) are using a separate multiplier.

I've literally written out exactly how the maths works, and it correlates perfectly with what you're seeing.

Disagree all you like, mate. Wanting it to be different doesn't make you right.

Go ahead and repost it the Bugs forum if you want; but I really don't think it'll get a lot of traction.

It really isn’t though, and your screenshot is actively going against what you’re suggesting. You just highlighted the word “potency” like that means wither’s ability power rate reduction and power gain potency are the same thing. They aren’t.




Look I can do that too. Leader inflicts the opponent with a vitality passive, which increases regen potency. Spectre’s description states that it reduces the potency of the opponent’s regen rate. They both have the word “potency” in their description, so they work off the same multiplier. Easy as pie, right? Except that’s not how that works, and why would it? That would mean the vitality actively goes against Leader’s ability to reverse regen. With your assumption, the math would go something like 100% (base) - 300% (maxed spectres and despair mastery) + 25% (vitality), so the vitality is completely detrimental. In practice, it makes the regen reversal damage stronger because they’re different effects. Vitality makes the regen stronger, and then the spectres reverse the regen such that the stronger regen is now stronger damage. There’s nothing to suggest the enhanced power gain node shouldn’t work like this.

Graves_3

Squidopus said:

Magrailothos said:

Squidopus said:

Magrailothos said:

This is fine.

Enhanced Power Gain increases Power Gain Potency by +100%

Let's see what Wither does...


This seems completely fine. This is how abilities that affect Potencies work: they stack, they don't multiply.

Chavez starts the fight with 100% Ability Power Potency, which increases to 200% Ability Power Potency thanks to the node.

With five Withers, Leader inflicts -100% Ability Power Potency
- At this point, Chavez has 200-100 = 100% Ability Power

With ten Withers, Leader inflicts -200% Ability Power Potency
- At this point, Chavez has 200-200 = 0% Ability Power, and is finally shut down.

I disagree. “Power gain potency” and “ability power rate” are two different things, two different multipliers. The “enhanced power gain” node, based on its description, modifies the former. Withers modify the latter. If Hyperion had an intensify or some other modifier that increased the potency of his power gain buffs, he’d gain more power but I wouldn’t need more withers to shut his power gain down, because withers (and any other form of ability power rate modification) are using a separate multiplier.

I've literally written out exactly how the maths works, and it correlates perfectly with what you're seeing.

Disagree all you like, mate. Wanting it to be different doesn't make you right.

Go ahead and repost it the Bugs forum if you want; but I really don't think it'll get a lot of traction.

It really isn’t though, and your screenshot is actively going against what you’re suggesting. You just highlighted the word “potency” like that means wither’s ability power rate reduction and power gain potency are the same thing. They aren’t.




Look I can do that too. Leader inflicts the opponent with a vitality passive, which increases regen potency. Spectre’s description states that it reduces the potency of the opponent’s regen rate. They both have the word “potency” in their description, so they work off the same multiplier. Easy as pie, right? Except that’s not how that works, and why would it? That would mean the vitality actively goes against Leader’s ability to reverse regen. With your assumption, the math would go something like 100% (base) - 300% (maxed spectres and despair mastery) + 25% (vitality), so the vitality is completely detrimental. In practice, it makes the regen reversal damage stronger because they’re different effects. Vitality makes the regen stronger, and then the spectres reverse the regen such that the stronger regen is now stronger damage. There’s nothing to suggest the enhanced power gain node shouldn’t work like this.

Not saying if it’s right or wrong but nodes have always worked differently to how champ abilities work. You can see that in nodes that have enhanced evade change, enhance ability accuracy or enhanced power rate. Currently that’s how most things work. You can argue if you think it’s supposed to be that way or not but not argue about how it’s currently working. It can be filed under the same section as why spidey 99 takes damage from Wiccan/rintrahs neutralize when he dexes

Squidopus

Graves_3 said:

Squidopus said:

Magrailothos said:

Squidopus said:

Magrailothos said:

This is fine.

Enhanced Power Gain increases Power Gain Potency by +100%

Let's see what Wither does...


This seems completely fine. This is how abilities that affect Potencies work: they stack, they don't multiply.

Chavez starts the fight with 100% Ability Power Potency, which increases to 200% Ability Power Potency thanks to the node.

With five Withers, Leader inflicts -100% Ability Power Potency
- At this point, Chavez has 200-100 = 100% Ability Power

With ten Withers, Leader inflicts -200% Ability Power Potency
- At this point, Chavez has 200-200 = 0% Ability Power, and is finally shut down.

I disagree. “Power gain potency” and “ability power rate” are two different things, two different multipliers. The “enhanced power gain” node, based on its description, modifies the former. Withers modify the latter. If Hyperion had an intensify or some other modifier that increased the potency of his power gain buffs, he’d gain more power but I wouldn’t need more withers to shut his power gain down, because withers (and any other form of ability power rate modification) are using a separate multiplier.

I've literally written out exactly how the maths works, and it correlates perfectly with what you're seeing.

Disagree all you like, mate. Wanting it to be different doesn't make you right.

Go ahead and repost it the Bugs forum if you want; but I really don't think it'll get a lot of traction.

It really isn’t though, and your screenshot is actively going against what you’re suggesting. You just highlighted the word “potency” like that means wither’s ability power rate reduction and power gain potency are the same thing. They aren’t.




Look I can do that too. Leader inflicts the opponent with a vitality passive, which increases regen potency. Spectre’s description states that it reduces the potency of the opponent’s regen rate. They both have the word “potency” in their description, so they work off the same multiplier. Easy as pie, right? Except that’s not how that works, and why would it? That would mean the vitality actively goes against Leader’s ability to reverse regen. With your assumption, the math would go something like 100% (base) - 300% (maxed spectres and despair mastery) + 25% (vitality), so the vitality is completely detrimental. In practice, it makes the regen reversal damage stronger because they’re different effects. Vitality makes the regen stronger, and then the spectres reverse the regen such that the stronger regen is now stronger damage. There’s nothing to suggest the enhanced power gain node shouldn’t work like this.

Not saying if it’s right or wrong but nodes have always worked differently to how champ abilities work. You can see that in nodes that have enhanced evade change, enhance ability accuracy or enhanced power rate. Currently that’s how most things work. You can argue if you think it’s supposed to be that way or not but not argue about how it’s currently working. It can be filed under the same section as why spidey 99 takes damage from Wiccan/rintrahs neutralize when he dexes

I’m not sure what exactly you’re referring to because in my experience nodes tend to work exactly like champ abilities, they aren’t special. A node that grants increased AA works just like Longshot’s base 300% AA. Node evades are no different from champion evades, with the exception of LOL evade which is just weird bs from the old days.

As for neutralizes, yeah you can argue that it shouldn’t be like that but it is at least a completely consistent thing: AA checks occur before immunities. As a result, buff immunes are susceptible to abilities triggered when neutralize prevents a buff. This is true for non-neutralize scenarios as well. For example, Sunspot gains power and a solar charge when incinerate is prevented via AAR but not via immunity. This power gain triggers against Maestro while he has his glancing buff active, because the glancing AAR is checked before Maestro’s immunity to incinerate. The incinerate fails to trigger against Maestro so Sunspot gets his beneficial effects regardless of the fact that Maestro was immune to the incinerate anyways. I’d argue this interaction with withers and enhanced power gain is, by comparison, not at all consistent with Leader’s spectres and vitality. They use essentially identical wording but behave differently.