Getting sick of new champions just being Defender or Counter to Defender

altavista

After seeing the previews of Maker and High Evolutionary, we get Onslaught counter #2 and Tough-Defender-Science-Edition.

And that comes on the heels of:
June (Arnim Zola counter #1 and Tough-Defender-Mystic-Edition)
May (Tough-Defender-Skill-Edition)
April (Enchantress counter #2)
March (Onslaught counter #1 and pre-Yelena counter #1)
Feb (Enchantress counter #1 and Bullseye counter #2)
Jan (Tough-Defender-Tech-Edition and Bullseye counter #1).

Yes, I am being reductive, but it does seem like there is a specific design philosophy for 2025 champions where there is a direct causal link to why a champion has a specific ability.
Even 2024 champions already showed somewhat of a pivot to this type of design philosophy.

Looking at the list of 2023 champions makes me nostalgic now for the previous era where there didn't seem to be a direct causal link to why a champion's kit is the way it is.

I want to emphasize that there isn't anything wrong with Kabam deciding to design champions this way. The argument of "well if they can handle (insert champion name like Serpent), that means they should be useful in a ton of ways" is true, as Spiderwoman being an Enchantress counter doesn't take away from how amazing she is overall. I just want to say that that this type of champion design to fit a specific formula is not really my cup of tea, and will likely decrease my interest in the game as it continues.

ahmynuts

Twitch chat was going insane. I doubt many are happy about marvel contest of defenders

EdisonLaw

Science class has been lacking defenders since Photon was introduced. Besides a few champs like Spiderwoman, Photon, Hulk, Leader and Void, it doesn't have as many compared to other classes

Buttehrs

Your acting like a tough character to fight and then a counter being released later on is some new thing. It's always been this way. It's only amplified because of bgs.

BringPopcorn

Kinda funny, only reason to follow this dumb process of making defender and counters would be for PvP. War has diversity to off set. BGs? I thought BGs was a niche mode...I'm confused.

EdisonLaw

Buttehrs said:

Your acting like a tough character to fight and then a counter being released later on is some new thing. It's always been this way. It's only amplified because of bgs.

Yeah it's always been like this.
For example, when Iceman was first released as a defender, there were very few counters, till later on. Same with Iron Man Infinity War, Peni Parker, Terrax, Gorr, especially Serpent, it's always like this

ItsClobberinTime

BringPopcorn said:

Kinda funny, only reason to follow this dumb process of making defender and counters would be for PvP. War has diversity to off set. BGs? I thought BGs was a niche mode...I'm confused.

Very confused too, he keeps calling BGs a niche mode few people play yet this champ release schedule they have is the way it is precisely and solely because of BGs. If they don't release counters as often as they do BGs would actually become a niche mode because every defender would be rage bait lol.

filledwithlove

I completely agree and share the sentiment. It's getting ridiculous at this point, I don't know many instances where you'd benefit from Negasonic's "evade counter-attack" mechanic or Spiral's dexterity replacement for example.

In the case of Spiral her dodge doesn't even work against science class btw so she can't dodge Photon in pure light form, that ability is obviously designed just for Serpent and nobody else. There are about 4-5 meta defenders she works "well" for, she can't even take most of the others cause her utility is so niche and gameplay loop is too strict. Her fervors are so hard to keep up unless the opponent has power gain, even without nodes its often a struggle. If Serpent didn't exist in the game nobody would use Spiral at all and you all know it, but because he does everyone has her in their deck which goes to show how ridiculous this design philosophy has become.

I'm all for generalists like Dazzler and Shathra but champions who are designed just around a single defender in the whole game disgust me. There's a major problem with champion design since 2024 starting with Bullseye, wonder what caused it after one of if not the most succesful year of champion release. Just tragic.

Buttehrs

EdisonLaw said:

Buttehrs said:

Your acting like a tough character to fight and then a counter being released later on is some new thing. It's always been this way. It's only amplified because of bgs.

Yeah it's always been like this.
For example, when Iceman was first released as a defender, there were very few counters, till later on. Same with Iron Man Infinity War, Peni Parker, Terrax, Gorr, especially Serpent, it's always like this

It reminds me when modok and ice phoenix first came out...the only viable counter to them was iceman himself.

EdisonLaw

Buttehrs said:

EdisonLaw said:

Buttehrs said:

Your acting like a tough character to fight and then a counter being released later on is some new thing. It's always been this way. It's only amplified because of bgs.

Yeah it's always been like this.
For example, when Iceman was first released as a defender, there were very few counters, till later on. Same with Iron Man Infinity War, Peni Parker, Terrax, Gorr, especially Serpent, it's always like this

It reminds me when modok and ice phoenix first came out...the only viable counter to them was iceman himself.

How did Iceman counter Modok? He countered Ice Phoenix sure, but not Modok. You probably meant Mephisto

EdisonLaw

filledwithlove said:

I completely agree and share the sentiment. It's getting ridiculous at this point, I don't know many instances where you'd benefit from Negasonic's "evade counter-attack" mechanic or Spiral's dexterity replacement for example.

In the case of Spiral her dodge doesn't even work against science class btw so she can't dodge Photon in pure light form, that ability is obviously designed just for Serpent and nobody else. There are about 4-5 meta defenders she works "well" for, she can't even take most of the others cause her utility is so niche and gameplay loop is too strict. Her fervors are so hard to keep up unless the opponent has power gain, even without nodes its often a struggle. If Serpent didn't exist in the game nobody would use Spiral at all and you all know it, but because he does everyone has her in their deck which goes to show how ridiculous this design philosophy has become.

I'm all for generalists like Dazzler and Shathra but champions who are designed just around a single defender in the whole game disgust me. There's a major problem with champion design since 2024 starting with Bullseye, wonder what caused it after one of if not the most succesful year of champion release. Just tragic.

Spiral is absolutely usable vs other buff heavy champions. You can keep up the fervors on any champions you can reliably stun

Buttehrs

EdisonLaw said:

Buttehrs said:

EdisonLaw said:

Buttehrs said:

Your acting like a tough character to fight and then a counter being released later on is some new thing. It's always been this way. It's only amplified because of bgs.

Yeah it's always been like this.
For example, when Iceman was first released as a defender, there were very few counters, till later on. Same with Iron Man Infinity War, Peni Parker, Terrax, Gorr, especially Serpent, it's always like this

It reminds me when modok and ice phoenix first came out...the only viable counter to them was iceman himself.

How did Iceman counter Modok? He countered Ice Phoenix sure, but not Modok. You probably meant Mephisto

Modok was not immune to coldsnap. As long as you managed some hits in, he was still gonna lose health over time and through bursts. Iceman ice armor prevented any major health loss and he's bleed immune if you messed up dexing that sp2. And if I remember right, during that initial event quest. Mdok had a node that using a heavy removed his shield. Iceman using his heavy repeatedly triggers the coldsnaps to burst causing burst damage.

Lokx

filledwithlove said:

I completely agree and share the sentiment. It's getting ridiculous at this point, I don't know many instances where you'd benefit from Negasonic's "evade counter-attack" mechanic or Spiral's dexterity replacement for example.

In the case of Spiral her dodge doesn't even work against science class btw so she can't dodge Photon in pure light form, that ability is obviously designed just for Serpent and nobody else.

They’ll release more champs to be used against, and those mechanics have more usage then just that

Negasonic evade can be used against kate bishop, mordo, bullseye and wasp. It’s not as if bullseye is the only champ with that. Her utility has a lot of versatility with the fact she places only passives. This makes her viable for a lot of the skill class as well as nodes where debuffs are denied. I don’t know why people keep lumping her as a character built to counter a specific champ, she counters a specific gameplay in game entirely.

Also for spiral, just because one mechanic isn’t relevant to other champs, doesn’t mean her entire is useless.

filledwithlove

Lokx said:

filledwithlove said:

I completely agree and share the sentiment. It's getting ridiculous at this point, I don't know many instances where you'd benefit from Negasonic's "evade counter-attack" mechanic or Spiral's dexterity replacement for example.

In the case of Spiral her dodge doesn't even work against science class btw so she can't dodge Photon in pure light form, that ability is obviously designed just for Serpent and nobody else.

They’ll release more champs to be used against, and those mechanics have more usage then just that

Negasonic evade can be used against kate bishop, mordo, bullseye and wasp. It’s not as if bullseye is the only champ with that. Her utility has a lot of versatility with the fact she places only passives. This makes her viable for a lot of the skill class as well as nodes where debuffs are denied. I don’t know why people keep lumping her as a character built to counter a specific champ, she counters a specific gameplay in game entirely.

Also for spiral, just because one mechanic isn’t relevant to other champs, doesn’t mean her entire is useless.

You don't see any of those champions other than Bullseye on defense, you can justify any ability by that logic with 250+ champions in the game. Also I didn't make the claim that Spiral's entire kit is useless did I? It's just not relevant for most cases. I also don't think Negasonic is similar to Spiral in that sense, she can indeed counter almost the whole skill class. Doesn't change the fact that her evade serves no purpose outside of a single champion.

NONYABIZZ

filledwithlove said:

Lokx said:

filledwithlove said:

I completely agree and share the sentiment. It's getting ridiculous at this point, I don't know many instances where you'd benefit from Negasonic's "evade counter-attack" mechanic or Spiral's dexterity replacement for example.

In the case of Spiral her dodge doesn't even work against science class btw so she can't dodge Photon in pure light form, that ability is obviously designed just for Serpent and nobody else.

They’ll release more champs to be used against, and those mechanics have more usage then just that

Negasonic evade can be used against kate bishop, mordo, bullseye and wasp. It’s not as if bullseye is the only champ with that. Her utility has a lot of versatility with the fact she places only passives. This makes her viable for a lot of the skill class as well as nodes where debuffs are denied. I don’t know why people keep lumping her as a character built to counter a specific champ, she counters a specific gameplay in game entirely.

Also for spiral, just because one mechanic isn’t relevant to other champs, doesn’t mean her entire is useless.

You don't see any of those champions other than Bullseye on defense, you can justify any ability by that logic with 250+ champions in the game. Also I didn't make the claim that Spiral's entire kit is useless did I? It's just not relevant for most cases. I also don't think Negasonic is similar to Spiral in that sense, she can indeed counter almost the whole skill class. Doesn't change the fact that her evade serves no purpose outside of a single champion.

Don't let them silence you, you're spitting

altavista

Buttehrs said:

Your acting like a tough character to fight and then a counter being released later on is some new thing. It's always been this way. It's only amplified because of bgs.

I don't disagree its always been this way, but like you said, it is amplified. In 2025 100% of champions so far are either a defender or response to a defender at their core design. Pre-2023 the Defender/Counter choice was infrequent (definitely less than 50%, if not <25%).

Even the way champions are buffed reflect this purposeful choice - 2023 Cap Britain is repurposed to be a 2025 defender. 2016 Cyclops is repurposed to be a 2025 Bullseye counter. Phoenix becomes an Arnim counter. Etc.

While there is merit to giving ignored/undervalued champions a purpose, this type of focus on BG designing champions is not my cup of tea.

NONYABIZZ

To be fair if attackers didn't directly counter defenders wouldn't y'all refer to them as mid?
If they aren't battlegrounds oriented then yall simply wouldn't want them as much or place them as highly as the BG champions.

EdisonLaw

NONYABIZZ said:

To be fair if attackers didn't directly counter defenders wouldn't y'all refer to them as mid?
If they aren't battlegrounds oriented then yall simply wouldn't want them as much or place them as highly as the BG champions.

Yeah most would call them mid because if they don't counter defenders, they simply don't have much usage. For example, Joaquin Torres doesn't counter Enchantress as well as Spiderwoman, so he's a benchwarmer for now

Polygon

altavista said:

Buttehrs said:

Your acting like a tough character to fight and then a counter being released later on is some new thing. It's always been this way. It's only amplified because of bgs.

I don't disagree its always been this way, but like you said, it is amplified. In 2025 100% of champions so far are either a defender or response to a defender at their core design. Pre-2023 the Defender/Counter choice was infrequent (definitely less than 50%, if not

Well said, anyone that says "its always been this way " is living under a rock.

Theres also Carolina for Zola, and Nico for Serpent and Dark Phoenix. And skill defenders like korg, KM, attuma are rarely used as much in decks

EdisonLaw

Polygon said:

altavista said:

Buttehrs said:

Your acting like a tough character to fight and then a counter being released later on is some new thing. It's always been this way. It's only amplified because of bgs.

I don't disagree its always been this way, but like you said, it is amplified. In 2025 100% of champions so far are either a defender or response to a defender at their core design. Pre-2023 the Defender/Counter choice was infrequent (definitely less than 50%, if not

Well said, anyone that says "its always been this way " is living under a rock.

Theres also Carolina for Zola, and Nico for Serpent and Dark Phoenix. And skill defenders like korg, KM, attuma are rarely used as much in decks

Plus Phoenix for Zola as well.

Terminatrix

NONYABIZZ said:

To be fair if attackers didn't directly counter defenders wouldn't y'all refer to them as mid?
If they aren't battlegrounds oriented then yall simply wouldn't want them as much or place them as highly as the BG champions.

Yup. My fav is considered "mid" and "too slow" for BGs. I hear it all the time lol. But somehow she still gets banned lol

EdisonLaw

Terminatrix said:

NONYABIZZ said:

To be fair if attackers didn't directly counter defenders wouldn't y'all refer to them as mid?
If they aren't battlegrounds oriented then yall simply wouldn't want them as much or place them as highly as the BG champions.

Yup. My fav is considered "mid" and "too slow" for BGs. I hear it all the time lol. But somehow she still gets banned lol

Cap Marvel? Well, if she's facing someone like Onslaught, she is not slow

Herbal_Taxman

altavista said:

Buttehrs said:

Your acting like a tough character to fight and then a counter being released later on is some new thing. It's always been this way. It's only amplified because of bgs.

I don't disagree its always been this way, but like you said, it is amplified. In 2025 100% of champions so far are either a defender or response to a defender at their core design. Pre-2023 the Defender/Counter choice was infrequent (definitely less than 50%, if not

Amplification is the underlying issue across the whole game. The new champ / new counter dynamic is very old, that’s true. It’s just faster and more of a dominant pattern now. Same with big event sales. They’ve always been around. But it used to be 2-3 per year, now it’s 7-9(?) per year.

PT_99

I rather have attackers that counter defenders than being useless mids like Green Falcon and Leader.

captain_rogers

And it is getting too much. Kits focus on countering only one defender for a lot of champs.

Maker is outright immune to neuroshock and. Abunch of other abilities that directly counter onslaught and cap britain, fine, but what else he has in his kit? Some tough complex playstyle. This kind of design will create a annoying loop over time.

Ragnaruk5178

That’s so true about ntw she’s only usable for like 10 champs in the game

Ragnaruk5178

I miss those champs that aren’t too targeted and are all rounders like gorr

Ragnaruk5178

@PT_99 i get what you mean there , but Kabam absolutely shafted leader for no good reason. Even worse, they limited his green door saying it was a bug, I like all rounder champs but he’s way too niche

Ragnaruk5178

This is the second time Kabam releases a champ that gets completely overshadowed by another

Leader NEFARIA
Torres. SPIDER WOMAN
Thankfully everybody respects Jack but it’s almost like he was used to promote bastion
This is becoming a serious problem that will never stop unless champs are designed to differ from others
And as leader didn’t get an upgrade I’m not sure Torres will, which is a shame because I think that he’s so cool

Sceptilemaniac2

filledwithlove said:

I completely agree and share the sentiment. It's getting ridiculous at this point, I don't know many instances where you'd benefit from Negasonic's "evade counter-attack" mechanic or Spiral's dexterity replacement for example.

In the case of Spiral her dodge doesn't even work against science class btw so she can't dodge Photon in pure light form, that ability is obviously designed just for Serpent and nobody else. There are about 4-5 meta defenders she works "well" for, she can't even take most of the others cause her utility is so niche and gameplay loop is too strict. Her fervors are so hard to keep up unless the opponent has power gain, even without nodes its often a struggle. If Serpent didn't exist in the game nobody would use Spiral at all and you all know it, but because he does everyone has her in their deck which goes to show how ridiculous this design philosophy has become.

I'm all for generalists like Dazzler and Shathra but champions who are designed just around a single defender in the whole game disgust me. There's a major problem with champion design since 2024 starting with Bullseye, wonder what caused it after one of if not the most succesful year of champion release. Just tragic.

Speak for yourself, sir. Spiral is awesome.

EdisonLaw

Ragnaruk5178 said:

This is the second time Kabam releases a champ that gets completely overshadowed by another

Leader NEFARIA
Torres. SPIDER WOMAN
Thankfully everybody respects Jack but it’s almost like he was used to promote bastion
This is becoming a serious problem that will never stop unless champs are designed to differ from others
And as leader didn’t get an upgrade I’m not sure Torres will, which is a shame because I think that he’s so cool

“We are happy with Falcon’s performance and so we won’t be making any changes”