15.0 Alliance Wars Update Discussion Thread

Summoners!

Our 15.0 Update is just about a week away, and with it, it's bringing a huge change to Alliance Wars! Check out everything you need to know about the Brand New Map, Scoring Changes, and new boosts in the Loyalty Store here: http://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/17902/15-0-alliance-wars-update/

Comments

vikky89

DNA3000 wrote: »

Snarf81 wrote: »

Hi...Please forgive me is someone already had this suggestion but I think there might be something that deals with most of the criticism of removing defender kills while still enabling the desire by the developers to encourage people to use all their healthy heroes.

What if each player gets 3 deaths or timeouts without any penalty, and deaths or timeouts after 3 give points to the opponents?

This would allow users to attack and die with their heroes and thus fulfill the developers' stated intent, while limiting people from infinitely healing their Iron men with timeouts or using 15 team revives per game.

Thoughts?

I suggested a similar, but not identical idea here: https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/104329#Comment_104329

The difference is mainly that instead of penalizing dying, the idea is to penalize reviving. So there's never a penalty for using any champs you have, which was the problem Kabam Miike stated was the problem being addressed by the change. But it is similar to the idea you're expressing here.

But penalizing revives doesnt stop from exploiting regen champs. regen-pause-timeout-repeat. They dont have to revive can just do unlimited tries. Even with regular champs can just timeout-heal. No revives needed so no defender kills. How do you address that. Current defender kill system works just fine with timeouts regarded as KO

DD2

UnsaferBinkie7 wrote: »

Defender kills being taken away? So..... our defense means nothing? What're you turning alliance war into alliance quest vs alliance quest?!?

Bidding Wars. Auction Wars. PIck one.

Armaganon00

I think AW could work and be better, if we got to use 5 attackers, and more defenders.

GroundedWisdom

MikeHock wrote: »

Acanthus wrote: »

Kabam Miike wrote: »

NemesisThantos wrote: »

I like how Kabam Miike is ignoring the main point of the posts he is quoting. Removing defender kills makes them more $$$, plain and simple. Just admit it

We have addressed that a few times. As we said, that was not the goal with the change. The goal with the removal of Defender kills wasn't to increase the use of Potions or Revives, but to relieve the feeling of defeat that comes with taking one shot at a defender, losing, and feeling that you're now helping the other Alliance, so you stop playing, even though you have 2 perfectly good attackers still there.

It doesn't matter what your "goal" was, we're telling you how it's gonna be. How am I supposed to beat an alliance with higher defender rating that will spend to 100% the map? It's impossible, even if we 100% aswell with 100 deaths while they do it in 300, they'll win purely by defender rating. You've removed all the skill involved in AWs

Perfectly said

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

Well, personally I'm excited for the idea. Less Energy wait times, new Map, more points for Attack Kills. Portals will be interesting. I'm open to change. It will take some getting used to, but anything new does.

Portals are far from interesting and really don't serve any purpose.

That's your opinion. I shared mine. Wasn't really a debate. I don't debate my feelings on subjects.

The_Savage_Ancient

Taking out defender kills is a bad move for the community. Many wars have been decided on defender kills and it was a crucial element in Alliance War strategy.

Now it appears that it's turning to 'who has the largest revs + pots' wins.

DD2

What happened to Kabam "listening to us"?

guess_who_09

So this update sounds like hot garbage, but regardless this is directed to the guy that doesn't understand the AW timer update. The 90 to 60 minute update is in fact equivalent to the 1.5x increase in map size (if that even actually ends up correlating to energy use, cuz you know, portals). Why don't you pull up your mobile calculator and punch in a few numbers. 90 / 1.5 = I'm guessing you know what I'm getting at.

You gave an example, so will I. Your lane currently covers 10 nodes, empty or not. Say you start from 0 energy. That would take you 15 hours to cover. Now we move to a map that's 1.5x the size. That means your lane will end up being 15 nodes, and if you start from 0 energy how long would that take with 60 min timer? You got it! 15 hours!

But again, portals. Tricky things.

Speeds80

The timeout issue needs to be addressed, with say a voodoo or iron man, people can. NOw just slow play if they are losing, timeout and heal the next fight, no penalty, this makes no sense and will be heavily exploited

unknown

This content has been removed.

vikky89

INTEGRAL wrote: »

Speeds80 wrote: »

The timeout issue needs to be addressed, with say a voodoo or iron man, people can. NOw just slow play if they are losing, timeout and heal the next fight, no penalty, this makes no sense and will be heavily exploited

Yeah people should be banned?

Just leave defender kills as it is. That should minimize exploiting this method.

waynegcore

Kabam Miike wrote: »

Crammer2020 wrote: »

Kabam Miike wrote: »

Crammer2020 wrote: »

GREAT! 5 minis with the same 3 attackers on a much bigger map, means more revives needed! No defender kill points! BIG SPENDERS WIN EVERY WAR!!! FUNNN!!!!!

Bigger map doesn't mean that you'll be having more fights. There will be just as many Defenders as there were before.

ok, just as many defenders. But defender kills, in combo with 5 mini bosses means $$ wins every war. No more skill. Good job killing wars.

The amount of items that any user can use remains the same, so every Alliance Member can still only Revive/Heal 15 times. This hasn't changed. Additionally, 5 Minibosses doesn't mean that any one person will be taking on more than 1.

The goal with the removal of Defender kills wasn't to increase the use of Potions or Revives, but to relieve the feeling of defeat that comes with taking one shot at a defender, losing, and feeling that you're now helping the other Alliance, so you stop playing, even though you have 2 perfectly good attackers still there.

I am not sure what some of you are complaining about, this completely makes sense to me.

The main goal of AW should be to kill the Boss and clear the group, not having to worry about giving the other team points for trying to achieve that goal is a good change I think. Also bringing down the points for exploration also makes sense to me, because again the main goal of AW should be to clear the group.

One question I do have @Kabam Miike is I saw earlier that you said the team was discussing about the Detect Masteries some of us invested a lot of resources into, which are somewhat useless now.

A suggestion that may make players happy is to refund us the loyalty equivalent spent getting those masteries, this gives us a good start to AW as we will have loyalty to test out the new AW Boosts.

Looking forward to the new AW, the changes sounds good so far.

Flush

We need Rank down tickets so can redo our defence and attack teams as currently ones usen now are based for this aw set up

Flush

We need Rank down tickets so can redo our defence and attack teams as currently ones usen now are based for this aw set up

Immortal

A suggestion that may make players happy is to refund us the loyalty equivalent spent getting those masteries, this gives us a good start to AW as we will have loyalty to test out the new AW Boosts.

Nice suggestion! I would accept that

Voluntaris

waynegcore wrote: »

Kabam Miike wrote: »

Crammer2020 wrote: »

Kabam Miike wrote: »

Crammer2020 wrote: »

GREAT! 5 minis with the same 3 attackers on a much bigger map, means more revives needed! No defender kill points! BIG SPENDERS WIN EVERY WAR!!! FUNNN!!!!!

Bigger map doesn't mean that you'll be having more fights. There will be just as many Defenders as there were before.

ok, just as many defenders. But defender kills, in combo with 5 mini bosses means $$ wins every war. No more skill. Good job killing wars.

The amount of items that any user can use remains the same, so every Alliance Member can still only Revive/Heal 15 times. This hasn't changed. Additionally, 5 Minibosses doesn't mean that any one person will be taking on more than 1.

The goal with the removal of Defender kills wasn't to increase the use of Potions or Revives, but to relieve the feeling of defeat that comes with taking one shot at a defender, losing, and feeling that you're now helping the other Alliance, so you stop playing, even though you have 2 perfectly good attackers still there.

I am not sure what some of you are complaining about, this completely makes sense to me.

The main goal of AW should be to kill the Boss and clear the group, not having to worry about giving the other team points for trying to achieve that goal is a good change I think. Also bringing down the points for exploration also makes sense to me, because again the main goal of AW should be to clear the group.

While the goal of clearing and killing bosses is the goal, in many Tier 1 AW wars I've been a part of, both alliances fully 100% clear the maps/kill the bosses. In those cases, whichever alliance is more SKILLFUL by not dying as much wins based on defender kills.

New system would remove this SKILL factor, instead leaving it up to "muh diversity" of defenders, while also allowing people to spend wild without any negative consequences.

Removing defender kill points is an awful change that's going to result in much more boring/much less competitive alliance war.

Mightylibra

waynegcore wrote: »

Kabam Miike wrote: »

Crammer2020 wrote: »

Kabam Miike wrote: »

Crammer2020 wrote: »

GREAT! 5 minis with the same 3 attackers on a much bigger map, means more revives needed! No defender kill points! BIG SPENDERS WIN EVERY WAR!!! FUNNN!!!!!

Bigger map doesn't mean that you'll be having more fights. There will be just as many Defenders as there were before.

ok, just as many defenders. But defender kills, in combo with 5 mini bosses means $$ wins every war. No more skill. Good job killing wars.

The amount of items that any user can use remains the same, so every Alliance Member can still only Revive/Heal 15 times. This hasn't changed. Additionally, 5 Minibosses doesn't mean that any one person will be taking on more than 1.

The goal with the removal of Defender kills wasn't to increase the use of Potions or Revives, but to relieve the feeling of defeat that comes with taking one shot at a defender, losing, and feeling that you're now helping the other Alliance, so you stop playing, even though you have 2 perfectly good attackers still there.

I am not sure what some of you are complaining about, this completely makes sense to me.

The main goal of AW should be to kill the Boss and clear the group, not having to worry about giving the other team points for trying to achieve that goal is a good change I think. Also bringing down the points for exploration also makes sense to me, because again the main goal of AW should be to clear the group.

One question I do have @Kabam Miike is I saw earlier that you said the team was discussing about the Detect Masteries some of us invested a lot of resources into, which are somewhat useless now.

A suggestion that may make players happy is to refund us the loyalty equivalent spent getting those masteries, this gives us a good start to AW as we will have loyalty to test out the new AW Boosts.

Looking forward to the new AW, the changes sounds good so far.

The main goal of Aw is to win the war. Plain and simple. Just like football, you win the match by scoring one goal while conceding none. On the contrary, even you score 10 goals but concede 11, you lose. The removal of defender killing points clearly undermines the defense, which is as big a part of Aw as the attack.

Ofc, everone is entitled to their opinions but you are obviously the minority here.

Jh_Dez

What about compensation for those that invested in scouter lens? @Kabam Miike

LCv2

How did you update wars and not build into it a selectable option for level of wars? Specifically... 3☆ and below wars?,
4☆ & below?,
5☆ & below?

Really? I thought you wanted the game to be fun and simultaneously have competitive levels not super-ultra-competitive at every single level.

Billgeta

Man you guys are bickering about moot points, we need more outrage on the playing inconsistency of the game. Playing in aw, aq, arenas, and story mode are so vastly diffrent i feel like im playing a diffrent game.

Amonthir

This thread is for the Alliance War change, not bugs and gameplay issues, that may be why we bicker about those 'moot points'. They are aware their game is... unreliable... at times, but it's not only a different team that would deal with that, but it's also a heckuva lot more difficult to figure out.

Snarf81

DNA3000 wrote: »

Snarf81 wrote: »

Hi...Please forgive me is someone already had this suggestion but I think there might be something that deals with most of the criticism of removing defender kills while still enabling the desire by the developers to encourage people to use all their healthy heroes.

What if each player gets 3 deaths or timeouts without any penalty, and deaths or timeouts after 3 give points to the opponents?

This would allow users to attack and die with their heroes and thus fulfill the developers' stated intent, while limiting people from infinitely healing their Iron men with timeouts or using 15 team revives per game.

Thoughts?

I suggested a similar, but not identical idea here: https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/104329#Comment_104329

The difference is mainly that instead of penalizing dying, the idea is to penalize reviving. So there's never a penalty for using any champs you have, which was the problem Kabam Miike stated was the problem being addressed by the change. But it is similar to the idea you're expressing here.

A good idea that I considered. I think this would probably be easier to implement than my idea, but since alliance revives are all team revives then you might be penalized for reviving two heroes you didn't need. It also doesn't address the timeout/infinite heal issue. That said, I would support this idea.

Vdh2008

Amonthir wrote: »

This thread is for the Alliance War change, not bugs and gameplay issues, that may be why we bicker about those 'moot points'. They are aware their game is... unreliable... at times, but it's not only a different team that would deal with that, but it's also a heckuva lot more difficult to figure out.

It seems to be the only 15.0 update thread, which means bugs that are still outstanding as of 15.0 should be raised here.

Amonthir

Vdh2008 wrote: »

Amonthir wrote: »

This thread is for the Alliance War change, not bugs and gameplay issues, that may be why we bicker about those 'moot points'. They are aware their game is... unreliable... at times, but it's not only a different team that would deal with that, but it's also a heckuva lot more difficult to figure out.

It seems to be the only 15.0 update thread, which means bugs that are still outstanding as of 15.0 should be raised here.

Really more of Kabam's deal with not making a generic thread for 15.0 =P But they could still argue that posts on bugs and glitches should be kept in the Bugs forum, so... But I still think we should try and stay on Topic, as it's a pain trying to read all of the suggestions and arguments while slogging through posts having nothing to do with it directly.

bigmull1

Mcord11758 wrote: »

SubTypical wrote: »

You guys have brought on more and more mods over the past few months. How come we don't see any increased interactions here? Always the same...respond to the first few select posts in unpopular threads, then crickets. Seems the only thing these mods were brought on for was to close out threads.

Because the mods do not play or know much about the game. Because there is nothing really to say. I mean picture miike sitting at a table where this is being discussed

Boss- how do we intend in growing revenues

Underlink- how about 6* champs and a new more expensive phc

Boss- good start need more

Underlink- we change war, add bosses, and remove any semblance of a penalty for spending to compete

Boss- I like where your head is at

Miike- but how am I supposed to explain this on the forum

Boss- tell them we removed the death points to remove the sting of defeat!!!

Room explodes in laughter, Miike looks down at his feet knowing what is to come

End scene

You forgot to open the scene with:
"It was a dark and stormy night"

Mightylibra

bigmull1 wrote: »

Mcord11758 wrote: »

SubTypical wrote: »

You guys have brought on more and more mods over the past few months. How come we don't see any increased interactions here? Always the same...respond to the first few select posts in unpopular threads, then crickets. Seems the only thing these mods were brought on for was to close out threads.

Because the mods do not play or know much about the game. Because there is nothing really to say. I mean picture miike sitting at a table where this is being discussed

Boss- how do we intend in growing revenues

Underlink- how about 6* champs and a new more expensive phc

Boss- good start need more

Underlink- we change war, add bosses, and remove any semblance of a penalty for spending to compete

Boss- I like where your head is at

Miike- but how am I supposed to explain this on the forum

Boss- tell them we removed the death points to remove the sting of defeat!!!

Room explodes in laughter, Miike looks down at his feet knowing what is to come

End scene

You forgot to open the scene with:
"It was a dark and stormy night"

It's fun, not necessarily far from the truth, lol.

vikky89

waynegcore wrote: »

Kabam Miike wrote: »

Crammer2020 wrote: »

Kabam Miike wrote: »

Crammer2020 wrote: »

GREAT! 5 minis with the same 3 attackers on a much bigger map, means more revives needed! No defender kill points! BIG SPENDERS WIN EVERY WAR!!! FUNNN!!!!!

Bigger map doesn't mean that you'll be having more fights. There will be just as many Defenders as there were before.

ok, just as many defenders. But defender kills, in combo with 5 mini bosses means $$ wins every war. No more skill. Good job killing wars.

The amount of items that any user can use remains the same, so every Alliance Member can still only Revive/Heal 15 times. This hasn't changed. Additionally, 5 Minibosses doesn't mean that any one person will be taking on more than 1.

The goal with the removal of Defender kills wasn't to increase the use of Potions or Revives, but to relieve the feeling of defeat that comes with taking one shot at a defender, losing, and feeling that you're now helping the other Alliance, so you stop playing, even though you have 2 perfectly good attackers still there.

I am not sure what some of you are complaining about, this completely makes sense to me.

The main goal of AW should be to kill the Boss and clear the group, not having to worry about giving the other team points for trying to achieve that goal is a good change I think. Also bringing down the points for exploration also makes sense to me, because again the main goal of AW should be to clear the group.

One question I do have @Kabam Miike is I saw earlier that you said the team was discussing about the Detect Masteries some of us invested a lot of resources into, which are somewhat useless now.

A suggestion that may make players happy is to refund us the loyalty equivalent spent getting those masteries, this gives us a good start to AW as we will have loyalty to test out the new AW Boosts.

Looking forward to the new AW, the changes sounds good so far.

You got everything backwards. Purpose of AW is to win wars. As you say if the objective is to just clear map then both sides should win and get equal rewards. And there is a already a name to that alliance quest. Dont give me the lame logic of everyone getting 15 item usage. spending 2 lvl3 single heals is not equal to spending 2 lvl3 team heals even though item count is same in both the cases. They just eliminated skill from the war. Now whoever can afford high level potions will win. We just won a war today in tier 2 based of defense kills. Both of us had almost equal exploration and 2 boss kills each. Deciding factor was skill here 88 kills vs 122 kills on defense.

UnsaferBinkie7

vikky89 wrote: »

waynegcore wrote: »

Kabam Miike wrote: »

Crammer2020 wrote: »

Kabam Miike wrote: »

Crammer2020 wrote: »

GREAT! 5 minis with the same 3 attackers on a much bigger map, means more revives needed! No defender kill points! BIG SPENDERS WIN EVERY WAR!!! FUNNN!!!!!

Bigger map doesn't mean that you'll be having more fights. There will be just as many Defenders as there were before.

ok, just as many defenders. But defender kills, in combo with 5 mini bosses means $$ wins every war. No more skill. Good job killing wars.

The amount of items that any user can use remains the same, so every Alliance Member can still only Revive/Heal 15 times. This hasn't changed. Additionally, 5 Minibosses doesn't mean that any one person will be taking on more than 1.

The goal with the removal of Defender kills wasn't to increase the use of Potions or Revives, but to relieve the feeling of defeat that comes with taking one shot at a defender, losing, and feeling that you're now helping the other Alliance, so you stop playing, even though you have 2 perfectly good attackers still there.

I am not sure what some of you are complaining about, this completely makes sense to me.

The main goal of AW should be to kill the Boss and clear the group, not having to worry about giving the other team points for trying to achieve that goal is a good change I think. Also bringing down the points for exploration also makes sense to me, because again the main goal of AW should be to clear the group.

One question I do have @Kabam Miike is I saw earlier that you said the team was discussing about the Detect Masteries some of us invested a lot of resources into, which are somewhat useless now.

A suggestion that may make players happy is to refund us the loyalty equivalent spent getting those masteries, this gives us a good start to AW as we will have loyalty to test out the new AW Boosts.

Looking forward to the new AW, the changes sounds good so far.

You got everything backwards. Purpose of AW is to win wars. As you say if the objective is to just clear map then both sides should win and get equal rewards. And there is a already a name to that alliance quest. Dont give me the lame logic of everyone getting 15 item usage. spending 2 lvl3 single heals is not equal to spending 2 lvl3 team heals even though item count is same in both the cases. They just eliminated skill from the war. Now whoever can afford high level potions will win. We just won a war today in tier 2 based of defense kills. Both of us had almost equal exploration and 2 boss kills each. Deciding factor was skill here 88 kills vs 122 kills on defense.

yes yes yes. It's now alliance quest vs alliance quest lol.

Hort4

guess_who_09 wrote: »

The 90 to 60 minute update is in fact equivalent to the 1.5x increase in map size (if that even actually ends up correlating to energy use, cuz you know, portals). Why don't you pull up your mobile calculator and punch in a few numbers. 90 / 1.5 = I'm guessing you know what I'm getting at.

You gave an example, so will I. Your lane currently covers 10 nodes, empty or not. Say you start from 0 energy. That would take you 15 hours to cover. Now we move to a map that's 1.5x the size. That means your lane will end up being 15 nodes, and if you start from 0 energy how long would that take with 60 min timer? You got it! 15 hours!

But again, portals. Tricky things.

You are correct in the logic on the timers. There is one other issue though. Currently, one can explore and use 5 energy and get half way on the 10 node path then go to sleep and do the last 5 nodes upon waking up. In the new scenario with 15 nodes, he can do 5 nodes and only get a third of the way and then wake up and do another 5 nodes (1/3) but will need to wait 5 hours for the last 5 nodes. We need to get an increase on the energy storage but that won't happen.

Quizarch

Great to see Kabam updating and trying to improve content. Overall looks like some good changes and AW needed to be freshened up. The major negative is the removal of defender kills.

Mike, you have talked about our "feelings" when we stop playing in fear of giving a kill, I just don't see this happening in our AWs where someone with 1 or 2 defenders left just stops playing out of fear. Could you perhaps provide some metrics on this? You would not have stated this or made the change without metrics right?

DNA3000

vikky89 wrote: »

DNA3000 wrote: »

Snarf81 wrote: »

Hi...Please forgive me is someone already had this suggestion but I think there might be something that deals with most of the criticism of removing defender kills while still enabling the desire by the developers to encourage people to use all their healthy heroes.

What if each player gets 3 deaths or timeouts without any penalty, and deaths or timeouts after 3 give points to the opponents?

This would allow users to attack and die with their heroes and thus fulfill the developers' stated intent, while limiting people from infinitely healing their Iron men with timeouts or using 15 team revives per game.

Thoughts?

I suggested a similar, but not identical idea here: https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/104329#Comment_104329

The difference is mainly that instead of penalizing dying, the idea is to penalize reviving. So there's never a penalty for using any champs you have, which was the problem Kabam Miike stated was the problem being addressed by the change. But it is similar to the idea you're expressing here.

But penalizing revives doesnt stop from exploiting regen champs. regen-pause-timeout-repeat. They dont have to revive can just do unlimited tries. Even with regular champs can just timeout-heal. No revives needed so no defender kills. How do you address that. Current defender kill system works just fine with timeouts regarded as KO

They could count those situations as a revive. Technically speaking in the current system the game just arbitrarily decides to count a reset as a kill even though nothing actually dies. So it is just as valid to count a reset as a revive for the purposes of score keeping as it is to count a reset as a kill. Either way you are basically giving the opposing alliance points when the attacker resets.