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So what's the deal with dani's buff?

I'm not trying to have a conversation about how good she is before or after the buff, I like her a lot but I know others find her awkward, but considering that there weren't patch notes for this update I'm confused as to the status of her buff.

Her slow has been increased by 4 seconds and to my understanding that and applying arrows to skill champs is the only thing that's been changed, but I could have sworn there was mention of her marked working against nick fury unless I'm mistaken?

Are the changes just the slow duration and the arrows applying at the start of a special?
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    GalactikDonutGalactikDonut Posts: 350 ★★★
    i believe the arrows applying at the start of specials does fix her match up against fury. before you’d apply the marked passive after the special so if the special killed his first life it wouldn’t do anything
  • Options
    altavistaaltavista Posts: 1,357 ★★★★
    https://playcontestofchampions.com/news/v42-1-release-notes/

    It mentions that the changes are to the SP1 Slow, and debuffs at start of specials against Skill.
  • Options
    WednesdayLengthWednesdayLength Posts: 426 ★★

    i believe the arrows applying at the start of specials does fix her match up against fury. before you’d apply the marked passive after the special so if the special killed his first life it wouldn’t do anything

    That's not the problem against Nick Fury, well not the main one at least. The main one is he can't miss if he has 5 charges, he shuts down Dani Moonstar completely the second he gets to 5.
    you can deal with him you just have to parry and mlm, it's not perfect but it's nowhere near impossible
  • Options
    WednesdayLengthWednesdayLength Posts: 426 ★★

    No, they didn't change any of that, she still can't counter the champs she's supposed to counter. Disrespectful af imo 💀

    I mean they quite literally did change what I said, when I said about her being better against nick fury I meant that marked would stop his second life, but applying the arrows at the start does ease that
  • Options
    ItsClobberinTimeItsClobberinTime Posts: 4,476 ★★★★★

    No, they didn't change any of that, she still can't counter the champs she's supposed to counter. Disrespectful af imo 💀

    I mean they quite literally did change what I said, when I said about her being better against nick fury I meant that marked would stop his second life, but applying the arrows at the start does ease that
    That's my bad, I misread the post. Yeah the marked passive applies on first hit.
  • Options
    ItsClobberinTimeItsClobberinTime Posts: 4,476 ★★★★★

    i believe the arrows applying at the start of specials does fix her match up against fury. before you’d apply the marked passive after the special so if the special killed his first life it wouldn’t do anything

    That's not the problem against Nick Fury, well not the main one at least. The main one is he can't miss if he has 5 charges, he shuts down Dani Moonstar completely the second he gets to 5.
    you can deal with him you just have to parry and mlm, it's not perfect but it's nowhere near impossible
    It's not impossible but in BGs it's: ton of block damage + very slow fight = lost round unless your opponent is terrible.
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    BitterSteelBitterSteel Posts: 9,263 ★★★★★

    No, they didn't change any of that, she still can't counter the champs she's supposed to counter. Disrespectful af imo 💀

    I mean they quite literally did change what I said, when I said about her being better against nick fury I meant that marked would stop his second life, but applying the arrows at the start does ease that
    That's my bad, I misread the post. Yeah the marked passive applies on first hit.
    I’m afraid you’ve misunderstood, the marked passive isn’t what stops Nick’s second life, and that’s not what’s been changed to apply on the first hit.

    The neuroshocks are the things that are now applied on the first hit of the special. And this means that you no longer kill Nick mid special and he goes into second life.

    The marked passive is what stops immortality, indestructible and other cheat death abilities, but since it’s based on AAR, and Nick’s LMD is immune to AAR it’s like applying a bleed to a bleed immune. So that’s not what stops Nick’s second life
  • Options
    ItsClobberinTimeItsClobberinTime Posts: 4,476 ★★★★★

    No, they didn't change any of that, she still can't counter the champs she's supposed to counter. Disrespectful af imo 💀

    I mean they quite literally did change what I said, when I said about her being better against nick fury I meant that marked would stop his second life, but applying the arrows at the start does ease that
    That's my bad, I misread the post. Yeah the marked passive applies on first hit.
    I’m afraid you’ve misunderstood, the marked passive isn’t what stops Nick’s second life, and that’s not what’s been changed to apply on the first hit.

    The neuroshocks are the things that are now applied on the first hit of the special. And this means that you no longer kill Nick mid special and he goes into second life.

    The marked passive is what stops immortality, indestructible and other cheat death abilities, but since it’s based on AAR, and Nick’s LMD is immune to AAR it’s like applying a bleed to a bleed immune. So that’s not what stops Nick’s second life
    You know exactly what I meant with that last reply, but fine I'll give it to you, wrong wording. Care to explain how you get around Nick's charges and him not being able to miss? Would really love to hear that one.
  • Options
    ItsClobberinTimeItsClobberinTime Posts: 4,476 ★★★★★

    i believe the arrows applying at the start of specials does fix her match up against fury. before you’d apply the marked passive after the special so if the special killed his first life it wouldn’t do anything

    That's not the problem against Nick Fury, well not the main one at least. The main one is he can't miss if he has 5 charges, he shuts down Dani Moonstar completely the second he gets to 5.
    you can deal with him you just have to parry and mlm, it's not perfect but it's nowhere near impossible
    It's not impossible but in BGs it's: ton of block damage + very slow fight = lost round unless your opponent is terrible.
    I think you’re overstating it a bit. In my experience, you start the fight by doing MLM, parry. That has an expected tactical charge gain of -0.25 (each hit has a 25% chance, and the parry has -1 due to it being a well timed block). So if you MLM parry until Nick has just below a bar of power, you will very rarely have him on above 1 tactical charge. Of course it’s RNG, but it’s mitigated and swung in your favour. If he has extra, throw in an extra parry before you push him above. This stage of the fight is entirely in your control.

    In my experience, once you push him above a bar of power to get him to sp2, you only hit Nick fury around 15 times above a bar of power in order to get to your sp2. That’s an expected charge gain of 3-4 at 25% chance. And that’s assuming you don’t get any parries or re parries in, which are -1 per.

    So as long as you play it right, the odds are you control the fight. And if you play it right, it’s a 40 second fight

    Is she the best option? No, probably not. And that’s something I wish she hadn’t been marketed towards, the whole Nick fury counter dead means dead. To some people that means she won’t be useful, and that’s fine if you only want her for that.

    But tons of block damage? Not really, Nick doesn’t hit hard in first life, and you’re not taking that many hits on block with only a few parries, hits into phase, and the occasional reparry.

    Very slow fight? Only if you either play it wrong, and don’t control his charges, or if you get supremely unlucky, and I don’t mean a bit of bad luck, but if you do 15 hits and he gets 7+ charges from it (because if he gets 5-6 that’s easy enough to let drop off) then those are pretty gnarly odds. You’re looking at 40-60 second fights, which win a hell of a lot of BGs matches against a defender that usually has a dangerous second life that takes health from you.

    Dani also isn’t just a Nick counter. She’s a pretty strong nuke for general matches, I will preface with wanting a 5 or 6 star gambit relic, but over time those only become more and more common (literally, you can’t lose them). Needing a relic nowadays is not an excuse to write off how much damage a champ has. I definitely appreciate it can feel like needing two parts of a champ to use them, but relics are part of the game, and those who have both are happy, those who have one need the other piece. No different to a dupe.

    She’s the best Zemo counter in the game, who is a sneaky defender, she’s a fantastic skill option in general, and I think with 7*s we will see her become a little more useful than she is.

    Overall, I don’t think Dani is a top option, but there’s always a danger of saying “well she’s not top, so I’ll never use her”. It’s not either or, and you personally don’t have to use her for her to have value in the game.

    I’m a little disappointed she didn’t get more from the tune up, and it is an odd feeling to rely on miss for champs that counter it, but that doesn’t mean it has to swing all the way to the other end of the scale of “she’s terrible”. She has value to me, I have a 7* I’d love to dupe, and R2. For me, she’s fun, and that’s enough.
    So she's a Nick Fury counter but you still have to play differently and carefully so he doesn't get to 5 charges. That's exactly my problem, how are they going to market a champ as a counter for something and then for it to actually work you have to go out of your way to parry a lot and hope RNG doesn't screw you if you get very unlucky?

    I get that you can control the fight and 8 times out of 10 RNG will work in your favor but why would I do that when I can I just use other reliable mutants? I'm not arguing fun here cause fun is subjective, what I'm arguing is people who find her fun trying to sugarcoat something that most people consider bad design (because again they marketed her as this insane Nick Fury counter). There's a reason you're part of a minority and it's not because most people don't know how to use her, it simply shouldn't have been marketed that way.

    As for the block damage yes that's probably pre-buff since sometimes you couldn't cancel his second life and had to fight him on second, I guess after the buff the block damage will be minimal which is better than nothing but I still won't be ranking up my 6* or popping another Titan cause I really don't want the 7*.
  • Options
    ItsClobberinTimeItsClobberinTime Posts: 4,476 ★★★★★

    i believe the arrows applying at the start of specials does fix her match up against fury. before you’d apply the marked passive after the special so if the special killed his first life it wouldn’t do anything

    That's not the problem against Nick Fury, well not the main one at least. The main one is he can't miss if he has 5 charges, he shuts down Dani Moonstar completely the second he gets to 5.
    you can deal with him you just have to parry and mlm, it's not perfect but it's nowhere near impossible
    It's not impossible but in BGs it's: ton of block damage + very slow fight = lost round unless your opponent is terrible.
    I think you’re overstating it a bit. In my experience, you start the fight by doing MLM, parry. That has an expected tactical charge gain of -0.25 (each hit has a 25% chance, and the parry has -1 due to it being a well timed block). So if you MLM parry until Nick has just below a bar of power, you will very rarely have him on above 1 tactical charge. Of course it’s RNG, but it’s mitigated and swung in your favour. If he has extra, throw in an extra parry before you push him above. This stage of the fight is entirely in your control.

    In my experience, once you push him above a bar of power to get him to sp2, you only hit Nick fury around 15 times above a bar of power in order to get to your sp2. That’s an expected charge gain of 3-4 at 25% chance. And that’s assuming you don’t get any parries or re parries in, which are -1 per.

    So as long as you play it right, the odds are you control the fight. And if you play it right, it’s a 40 second fight

    Is she the best option? No, probably not. And that’s something I wish she hadn’t been marketed towards, the whole Nick fury counter dead means dead. To some people that means she won’t be useful, and that’s fine if you only want her for that.

    But tons of block damage? Not really, Nick doesn’t hit hard in first life, and you’re not taking that many hits on block with only a few parries, hits into phase, and the occasional reparry.

    Very slow fight? Only if you either play it wrong, and don’t control his charges, or if you get supremely unlucky, and I don’t mean a bit of bad luck, but if you do 15 hits and he gets 7+ charges from it (because if he gets 5-6 that’s easy enough to let drop off) then those are pretty gnarly odds. You’re looking at 40-60 second fights, which win a hell of a lot of BGs matches against a defender that usually has a dangerous second life that takes health from you.

    Dani also isn’t just a Nick counter. She’s a pretty strong nuke for general matches, I will preface with wanting a 5 or 6 star gambit relic, but over time those only become more and more common (literally, you can’t lose them). Needing a relic nowadays is not an excuse to write off how much damage a champ has. I definitely appreciate it can feel like needing two parts of a champ to use them, but relics are part of the game, and those who have both are happy, those who have one need the other piece. No different to a dupe.

    She’s the best Zemo counter in the game, who is a sneaky defender, she’s a fantastic skill option in general, and I think with 7*s we will see her become a little more useful than she is.

    Overall, I don’t think Dani is a top option, but there’s always a danger of saying “well she’s not top, so I’ll never use her”. It’s not either or, and you personally don’t have to use her for her to have value in the game.

    I’m a little disappointed she didn’t get more from the tune up, and it is an odd feeling to rely on miss for champs that counter it, but that doesn’t mean it has to swing all the way to the other end of the scale of “she’s terrible”. She has value to me, I have a 7* I’d love to dupe, and R2. For me, she’s fun, and that’s enough.
    So she's a Nick Fury counter but you still have to play differently and carefully so he doesn't get to 5 charges. That's exactly my problem, how are they going to market a champ as a counter for something and then for it to actually work you have to go out of your way to parry a lot and hope RNG doesn't screw you if you get very unlucky?
    Since when was playing differently and carefully the mark of a bad counter? Mantis has to be played carefully and differently to fight photon, she’s still the best counter in the game. It’s not automatic.

    RNG is always a part of the game, and 1) something very unlikely, and 2) something you have control over by parrying, is not (again) the mark of a bad counter. There are fringe cases, very rare cases where this happens but it’s not nearly as much of a problem as you think, I believe.


    “I get that you can control the fight and 8 times out of 10 RNG will work in your favor but why would I do that when I can I just use other reliable mutants?“
    That’s your question to answer, if you don’t want to use Dani you absolutely don’t have to. I get why you’re asking it, but I think you’re reducing Dani to a Nick counter and only a Nick counter. That’s not something I blame you for as we’ve both mentioned how we don’t like her being marketed towards Nick and only Nick. You can have her in the deck as more of a general champ, miss counters aren’t on every champ, and then if she comes up for Nick, you know how to use her.

    I think the issue here is how much people were expecting from re-balancing. This was not the redesigning program - and I’m not drawing a distinction between you and me here, I actively suggested changes for Dani to help with Nick - the neuros activating on the first hit of the special was an idea I had and suggested and I’m glad they implemented it. I also suggested things that would help further against Nick, like if a champ prevented her miss on a well timed block she retained the falter, or was able to re trigger it. So you could parry Nick’s charges away.

    But I was always suggesting the with the knowledge that that’s a big change to add to a champ, and does fundamentally change how they work. That’s not, and never was, what the balancing program was for. They’re almost exclusively for tune ups, not new abilities. I’d have chosen to add more, and tune up more to Dani, but it’s not up to me. And it doesn’t make her bad just because she’s not perfect.


    How? I've used Mantis against Photon and it's the same rotation you use for any other champ. If you use Dani against Nick on the other hand and the charges start to get out of control you have to parry til he's at 0 cause if he goes above 5 it will slow you down, the higher he goes the worse it gets. Sure it's not a big deal since you can just parry like crazy but I hate when stuff like this depends mostly on luck even if that luck is tuned in your favor most of the time.

    Yes I absolutely won't use her, what I'm saying is we shouldn't be pretending like they did a good job with her cause even after the buff she's mid at best and not because she has bad damage or bad utility, she simply doesn't have anything in her kit that would make her better than the other 10-15 top mutant options in the game. Is she fun? Maybe, I'm not here to judge that cause it's subjective. Do I gain any advantages by using her instead of the other top champs in the mutant class? I don't think so. That's my thought process.
    Also, she's easily the second worst champ released last year (the mutant class has been the worst for a bit now so it's not like we even needed this). On top of that, there's a possibility this will change depending on how good Gladiator's buff is, I wouldn't be surprised if she ends up being the worst after he gets buffed.
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    HarryatomixHarryatomix Posts: 134

    i believe the arrows applying at the start of specials does fix her match up against fury. before you’d apply the marked passive after the special so if the special killed his first life it wouldn’t do anything

    That's not the problem against Nick Fury, well not the main one at least. The main one is he can't miss if he has 5 charges, he shuts down Dani Moonstar completely the second he gets to 5.
    you can deal with him you just have to parry and mlm, it's not perfect but it's nowhere near impossible
    It's not impossible but in BGs it's: ton of block damage + very slow fight = lost round unless your opponent is terrible.
    I think you’re overstating it a bit. In my experience, you start the fight by doing MLM, parry. That has an expected tactical charge gain of -0.25 (each hit has a 25% chance, and the parry has -1 due to it being a well timed block). So if you MLM parry until Nick has just below a bar of power, you will very rarely have him on above 1 tactical charge. Of course it’s RNG, but it’s mitigated and swung in your favour. If he has extra, throw in an extra parry before you push him above. This stage of the fight is entirely in your control.

    In my experience, once you push him above a bar of power to get him to sp2, you only hit Nick fury around 15 times above a bar of power in order to get to your sp2. That’s an expected charge gain of 3-4 at 25% chance. And that’s assuming you don’t get any parries or re parries in, which are -1 per.

    So as long as you play it right, the odds are you control the fight. And if you play it right, it’s a 40 second fight

    Is she the best option? No, probably not. And that’s something I wish she hadn’t been marketed towards, the whole Nick fury counter dead means dead. To some people that means she won’t be useful, and that’s fine if you only want her for that.

    But tons of block damage? Not really, Nick doesn’t hit hard in first life, and you’re not taking that many hits on block with only a few parries, hits into phase, and the occasional reparry.

    Very slow fight? Only if you either play it wrong, and don’t control his charges, or if you get supremely unlucky, and I don’t mean a bit of bad luck, but if you do 15 hits and he gets 7+ charges from it (because if he gets 5-6 that’s easy enough to let drop off) then those are pretty gnarly odds. You’re looking at 40-60 second fights, which win a hell of a lot of BGs matches against a defender that usually has a dangerous second life that takes health from you.

    Dani also isn’t just a Nick counter. She’s a pretty strong nuke for general matches, I will preface with wanting a 5 or 6 star gambit relic, but over time those only become more and more common (literally, you can’t lose them). Needing a relic nowadays is not an excuse to write off how much damage a champ has. I definitely appreciate it can feel like needing two parts of a champ to use them, but relics are part of the game, and those who have both are happy, those who have one need the other piece. No different to a dupe.

    She’s the best Zemo counter in the game, who is a sneaky defender, she’s a fantastic skill option in general, and I think with 7*s we will see her become a little more useful than she is.

    Overall, I don’t think Dani is a top option, but there’s always a danger of saying “well she’s not top, so I’ll never use her”. It’s not either or, and you personally don’t have to use her for her to have value in the game.

    I’m a little disappointed she didn’t get more from the tune up, and it is an odd feeling to rely on miss for champs that counter it, but that doesn’t mean it has to swing all the way to the other end of the scale of “she’s terrible”. She has value to me, I have a 7* I’d love to dupe, and R2. For me, she’s fun, and that’s enough.
    First R2 her if you want to talk good about her, none is playing her in the game. She is just another native champ kabam wanted to mess up and they did it very well.
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    HarryatomixHarryatomix Posts: 134

    i believe the arrows applying at the start of specials does fix her match up against fury. before you’d apply the marked passive after the special so if the special killed his first life it wouldn’t do anything

    That's not the problem against Nick Fury, well not the main one at least. The main one is he can't miss if he has 5 charges, he shuts down Dani Moonstar completely the second he gets to 5.
    you can deal with him you just have to parry and mlm, it's not perfect but it's nowhere near impossible
    It's not impossible but in BGs it's: ton of block damage + very slow fight = lost round unless your opponent is terrible.
    I think you’re overstating it a bit. In my experience, you start the fight by doing MLM, parry. That has an expected tactical charge gain of -0.25 (each hit has a 25% chance, and the parry has -1 due to it being a well timed block). So if you MLM parry until Nick has just below a bar of power, you will very rarely have him on above 1 tactical charge. Of course it’s RNG, but it’s mitigated and swung in your favour. If he has extra, throw in an extra parry before you push him above. This stage of the fight is entirely in your control.

    In my experience, once you push him above a bar of power to get him to sp2, you only hit Nick fury around 15 times above a bar of power in order to get to your sp2. That’s an expected charge gain of 3-4 at 25% chance. And that’s assuming you don’t get any parries or re parries in, which are -1 per.

    So as long as you play it right, the odds are you control the fight. And if you play it right, it’s a 40 second fight

    Is she the best option? No, probably not. And that’s something I wish she hadn’t been marketed towards, the whole Nick fury counter dead means dead. To some people that means she won’t be useful, and that’s fine if you only want her for that.

    But tons of block damage? Not really, Nick doesn’t hit hard in first life, and you’re not taking that many hits on block with only a few parries, hits into phase, and the occasional reparry.

    Very slow fight? Only if you either play it wrong, and don’t control his charges, or if you get supremely unlucky, and I don’t mean a bit of bad luck, but if you do 15 hits and he gets 7+ charges from it (because if he gets 5-6 that’s easy enough to let drop off) then those are pretty gnarly odds. You’re looking at 40-60 second fights, which win a hell of a lot of BGs matches against a defender that usually has a dangerous second life that takes health from you.

    Dani also isn’t just a Nick counter. She’s a pretty strong nuke for general matches, I will preface with wanting a 5 or 6 star gambit relic, but over time those only become more and more common (literally, you can’t lose them). Needing a relic nowadays is not an excuse to write off how much damage a champ has. I definitely appreciate it can feel like needing two parts of a champ to use them, but relics are part of the game, and those who have both are happy, those who have one need the other piece. No different to a dupe.

    She’s the best Zemo counter in the game, who is a sneaky defender, she’s a fantastic skill option in general, and I think with 7*s we will see her become a little more useful than she is.

    Overall, I don’t think Dani is a top option, but there’s always a danger of saying “well she’s not top, so I’ll never use her”. It’s not either or, and you personally don’t have to use her for her to have value in the game.

    I’m a little disappointed she didn’t get more from the tune up, and it is an odd feeling to rely on miss for champs that counter it, but that doesn’t mean it has to swing all the way to the other end of the scale of “she’s terrible”. She has value to me, I have a 7* I’d love to dupe, and R2. For me, she’s fun, and that’s enough.
    So she's a Nick Fury counter but you still have to play differently and carefully so he doesn't get to 5 charges. That's exactly my problem, how are they going to market a champ as a counter for something and then for it to actually work you have to go out of your way to parry a lot and hope RNG doesn't screw you if you get very unlucky?
    Since when was playing differently and carefully the mark of a bad counter? Mantis has to be played carefully and differently to fight photon, she’s still the best counter in the game. It’s not automatic.

    RNG is always a part of the game, and 1) something very unlikely, and 2) something you have control over by parrying, is not (again) the mark of a bad counter. There are fringe cases, very rare cases where this happens but it’s not nearly as much of a problem as you think, I believe.


    “I get that you can control the fight and 8 times out of 10 RNG will work in your favor but why would I do that when I can I just use other reliable mutants?“
    That’s your question to answer, if you don’t want to use Dani you absolutely don’t have to. I get why you’re asking it, but I think you’re reducing Dani to a Nick counter and only a Nick counter. That’s not something I blame you for as we’ve both mentioned how we don’t like her being marketed towards Nick and only Nick. You can have her in the deck as more of a general champ, miss counters aren’t on every champ, and then if she comes up for Nick, you know how to use her.

    I think the issue here is how much people were expecting from re-balancing. This was not the redesigning program - and I’m not drawing a distinction between you and me here, I actively suggested changes for Dani to help with Nick - the neuros activating on the first hit of the special was an idea I had and suggested and I’m glad they implemented it. I also suggested things that would help further against Nick, like if a champ prevented her miss on a well timed block she retained the falter, or was able to re trigger it. So you could parry Nick’s charges away.

    But I was always suggesting the with the knowledge that that’s a big change to add to a champ, and does fundamentally change how they work. That’s not, and never was, what the balancing program was for. They’re almost exclusively for tune ups, not new abilities. I’d have chosen to add more, and tune up more to Dani, but it’s not up to me. And it doesn’t make her bad just because she’s not perfect.


    So Dani moonstar tune up when?
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    JAYIRIJAYIRI Posts: 173 ★★
    All it takes is one little node to mess Dani up in the slightest. Where it being unstoppable, evade, miss or even power gain. She's so impractical one wrong thing ruins it all. How can u design a champion like that. Who even designed her. I really looked forward to her and expected a whole rework but they did literally nothing. The person that designed her has absolutely no knowledge about this game I swear to God.
    Okay let's say things play out in your favor "SHE DOESN'T EVEN CRIT" so much wrong with this character.
    And I blame whoever designed her for messing her up
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    PT_99PT_99 Posts: 3,411 ★★★★★
    She got smooth animations, amazing sp-1,2 flow and unique playstyle but that's all.
    Show-off and nothing to back it up
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    Sunstar19Sunstar19 Posts: 136
    Why is Dani a great counter for Zemo, and how do you play her in such a fight? Zemo is one of the more annoying defenders for me and I still disliked facing Zemo
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    Heruzu369Heruzu369 Posts: 124 ★★
    Guys clearly Dani was designed to counter Hela! Idk what’s so hard to understand that! Clearly Kabam was just joking when they said she’s a Great Nick and Herc counter xD
    Who caresss that she NEEDS Her dupe, A specific high rarity relic, and to be at matching rarity of the champs she facing? Who caresss that her damage is inconsistent? I mean a top tier player like Bittersteel said a she’s TOP TEN in the worst class in the game. The same class didnt her get any champs for 1.5-2 years. So she must be underrated by the community right? If a top tier player who likes her still ranks her as top 10 in the worst most left back class in the game right?
    I mean it only makes sense that the mutant who was supposed to revive the mutant class and the summoner choice champ are the 2 worst champs of 2023, when Kabam themselves said “summoner choice champs aren’t special” , so why would dani be? It only took like 6 months to get the most minimal of changes, she’s awesome!
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    laserjohn26laserjohn26 Posts: 1,529 ★★★★★

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    altavistaaltavista Posts: 1,357 ★★★★

    i believe the arrows applying at the start of specials does fix her match up against fury. before you’d apply the marked passive after the special so if the special killed his first life it wouldn’t do anything

    That's not the problem against Nick Fury, well not the main one at least. The main one is he can't miss if he has 5 charges, he shuts down Dani Moonstar completely the second he gets to 5.
    you can deal with him you just have to parry and mlm, it's not perfect but it's nowhere near impossible
    It's not impossible but in BGs it's: ton of block damage + very slow fight = lost round unless your opponent is terrible.
    I think you’re overstating it a bit. In my experience, you start the fight by doing MLM, parry. That has an expected tactical charge gain of -0.25 (each hit has a 25% chance, and the parry has -1 due to it being a well timed block). So if you MLM parry until Nick has just below a bar of power, you will very rarely have him on above 1 tactical charge. Of course it’s RNG, but it’s mitigated and swung in your favour. If he has extra, throw in an extra parry before you push him above. This stage of the fight is entirely in your control.

    In my experience, once you push him above a bar of power to get him to sp2, you only hit Nick fury around 15 times above a bar of power in order to get to your sp2. That’s an expected charge gain of 3-4 at 25% chance. And that’s assuming you don’t get any parries or re parries in, which are -1 per.

    So as long as you play it right, the odds are you control the fight. And if you play it right, it’s a 40 second fight

    Is she the best option? No, probably not. And that’s something I wish she hadn’t been marketed towards, the whole Nick fury counter dead means dead. To some people that means she won’t be useful, and that’s fine if you only want her for that.

    But tons of block damage? Not really, Nick doesn’t hit hard in first life, and you’re not taking that many hits on block with only a few parries, hits into phase, and the occasional reparry.

    Very slow fight? Only if you either play it wrong, and don’t control his charges, or if you get supremely unlucky, and I don’t mean a bit of bad luck, but if you do 15 hits and he gets 7+ charges from it (because if he gets 5-6 that’s easy enough to let drop off) then those are pretty gnarly odds. You’re looking at 40-60 second fights, which win a hell of a lot of BGs matches against a defender that usually has a dangerous second life that takes health from you.

    Dani also isn’t just a Nick counter. She’s a pretty strong nuke for general matches, I will preface with wanting a 5 or 6 star gambit relic, but over time those only become more and more common (literally, you can’t lose them). Needing a relic nowadays is not an excuse to write off how much damage a champ has. I definitely appreciate it can feel like needing two parts of a champ to use them, but relics are part of the game, and those who have both are happy, those who have one need the other piece. No different to a dupe.

    She’s the best Zemo counter in the game, who is a sneaky defender, she’s a fantastic skill option in general, and I think with 7*s we will see her become a little more useful than she is.

    Overall, I don’t think Dani is a top option, but there’s always a danger of saying “well she’s not top, so I’ll never use her”. It’s not either or, and you personally don’t have to use her for her to have value in the game.

    I’m a little disappointed she didn’t get more from the tune up, and it is an odd feeling to rely on miss for champs that counter it, but that doesn’t mean it has to swing all the way to the other end of the scale of “she’s terrible”. She has value to me, I have a 7* I’d love to dupe, and R2. For me, she’s fun, and that’s enough.
    So she's a Nick Fury counter but you still have to play differently and carefully so he doesn't get to 5 charges. That's exactly my problem, how are they going to market a champ as a counter for something and then for it to actually work you have to go out of your way to parry a lot and hope RNG doesn't screw you if you get very unlucky?
    Since when was playing differently and carefully the mark of a bad counter? Mantis has to be played carefully and differently to fight photon, she’s still the best counter in the game. It’s not automatic.

    RNG is always a part of the game, and 1) something very unlikely, and 2) something you have control over by parrying, is not (again) the mark of a bad counter. There are fringe cases, very rare cases where this happens but it’s not nearly as much of a problem as you think, I believe.


    “I get that you can control the fight and 8 times out of 10 RNG will work in your favor but why would I do that when I can I just use other reliable mutants?“
    That’s your question to answer, if you don’t want to use Dani you absolutely don’t have to. I get why you’re asking it, but I think you’re reducing Dani to a Nick counter and only a Nick counter. That’s not something I blame you for as we’ve both mentioned how we don’t like her being marketed towards Nick and only Nick. You can have her in the deck as more of a general champ, miss counters aren’t on every champ, and then if she comes up for Nick, you know how to use her.

    I think the issue here is how much people were expecting from re-balancing. This was not the redesigning program - and I’m not drawing a distinction between you and me here, I actively suggested changes for Dani to help with Nick - the neuros activating on the first hit of the special was an idea I had and suggested and I’m glad they implemented it. I also suggested things that would help further against Nick, like if a champ prevented her miss on a well timed block she retained the falter, or was able to re trigger it. So you could parry Nick’s charges away.

    But I was always suggesting the with the knowledge that that’s a big change to add to a champ, and does fundamentally change how they work. That’s not, and never was, what the balancing program was for. They’re almost exclusively for tune ups, not new abilities. I’d have chosen to add more, and tune up more to Dani, but it’s not up to me. And it doesn’t make her bad just because she’s not perfect.


    How? I've used Mantis against Photon and it's the same rotation you use for any other champ. If you use Dani against Nick on the other hand and the charges start to get out of control you have to parry til he's at 0 cause if he goes above 5 it will slow you down, the higher he goes the worse it gets. Sure it's not a big deal since you can just parry like crazy but I hate when stuff like this depends mostly on luck even if that luck is tuned in your favor most of the time.

    Yes I absolutely won't use her, what I'm saying is we shouldn't be pretending like they did a good job with her cause even after the buff she's mid at best and not because she has bad damage or bad utility, she simply doesn't have anything in her kit that would make her better than the other 10-15 top mutant options in the game. Is she fun? Maybe, I'm not here to judge that cause it's subjective. Do I gain any advantages by using her instead of the other top champs in the mutant class? I don't think so. That's my thought process.
    Also, she's easily the second worst champ released last year (the mutant class has been the worst for a bit now so it's not like we even needed this). On top of that, there's a possibility this will change depending on how good Gladiator's buff is, I wouldn't be surprised if she ends up being the worst after he gets buffed.
    It seems like you've made up your mind about Dani and no amount of evidence that Bittersteel is providing will change your mind. If you don't like a champion, you can always play the "but what about" game with them.

    "Duped Valkyrie is the best Thing counter. But what about low sig? Then you have to change your playstyle until then. But that means she is not the best counter!"

    There is no problem with Kabam releasing a new mid champion (whether they are mid or not, is subjective). The fact that a new champion is Mutant class doesn't necessarily mean that they must be great. A buff doesn't have to move a champion form Mid to Great (again, subjective). Some people consider Dani a Top 10 Mutant, and some do not. It would be great if all 2023 champions were great, but even if they are all great, someone always has to be in the bottom 2..
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    BitterSteelBitterSteel Posts: 9,263 ★★★★★
    Heruzu369 said:


    I mean a top tier player like Bittersteel said a she’s TOP TEN in the worst class in the game!

    I’m pretty sure I never said that
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