Apple Now Requires Game Developers to disclose odds on "Loot Boxes" [MERGED THREADS]

CoatHang3r wrote: »

Mmx1991 wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

Except you have no take home on that wager. You can't withdrawal from your Account. You don't own it. You are renting the license to use their product. There is no payout. Ever. Your Account, everything in it, the game itself, is property of Kabam. It's right there in the TOS. Which is why it's not governed by an Age of Majority as Gambling is. It's not Gambling. No matter how people spin it.

You are RISKING something (units or shards that are on the table to be purchased) FOR something of VALUE.

It's gambling.

1. Read the tos, the contract you entered into when installing the game. There is zero redeemable value in in game items and all sales after final. You have in essence bought tokens at an arcade that are only redeemable for content within the game. Furthermore all content including your account is owned by Kabam.
2. Being that you own nothing it has zero tangible value.
3. In arguendo, if it did have value you are not at risk of losing as you do receive something in return guaranteed.

Though it's against the TOS, accounts have resale value. Therefore it's gambling. The market determines value, not Kabam's TOS.

Mmx1991 wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

Except you have no take home on that wager. You can't withdrawal from your Account. You don't own it. You are renting the license to use their product. There is no payout. Ever. Your Account, everything in it, the game itself, is property of Kabam. It's right there in the TOS. Which is why it's not governed by an Age of Majority as Gambling is. It's not Gambling. No matter how people spin it.

You are RISKING something (units or shards that are on the table to be purchased) FOR something of VALUE.

It's gambling.

You're not playing games of chance for money. You receive no money from the game.
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/gambling

Accounts have resale value even though it's against the TOS.

Snizzbar wrote: »

CoatHang3r wrote: »

Mmx1991 wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

Except you have no take home on that wager. You can't withdrawal from your Account. You don't own it. You are renting the license to use their product. There is no payout. Ever. Your Account, everything in it, the game itself, is property of Kabam. It's right there in the TOS. Which is why it's not governed by an Age of Majority as Gambling is. It's not Gambling. No matter how people spin it.

You are RISKING something (units or shards that are on the table to be purchased) FOR something of VALUE.

It's gambling.

1. Read the tos, the contract you entered into when installing the game. There is zero redeemable value in in game items and all sales after final. You have in essence bought tokens at an arcade that are only redeemable for content within the game. Furthermore all content including your account is owned by Kabam.
2. Being that you own nothing it has zero tangible value.
3. In arguendo, if it did have value you are not at risk of losing as you do receive something in return guaranteed.

The game ToS mean absolutely nothing to Apple, because Apple have all the power. Apple is the 500 pound gorilla that gets to sit wherever it wants to.

Yup, however Apple doesn’t define what gambling is, we have legislatures and dictionaries that do that sort of thing.

Snizzbar wrote: »

“Apps offering ‘loot boxes’ or other mechanisms that provide randomized virtual items for purchase must disclose the odds of receiving each type of item to customers prior to purchase.”
That's straight from the App Store guidelines. There is no mention of gambling, so why is everyone going on about it?
By the definition of loot boxes used in the official Apple guidelines, the in game crystals are loot boxes, and therefore Kabam must follow the rules set by Apple if they want MCoC to stay in the app store.

What comes of it is yet to be seen. Apple has no authority over in-game currency, for that matter.

Mmx1991 wrote: »

Accounts have resale value even though it's against the TOS.

Legally no they do not.

Mmx1991 wrote: »

CoatHang3r wrote: »

See simply put, every definition I have come across requires that for gambling to occur you need to put up something of value (hint units have zero value) for a chance at being awarded something of value (hint there is zero value in any item in game refer to the TOS).

I don't care what the TOS says.

Units and shards CAN be purchased. You spin them for a chance at something. You can win or lose. It's gambling straight up.

Under what definition? Oh wait you are not worried about what is established nor contracts as you’ve already chosen to ignore the contract you entered into.

P.s. you always wi.

CoatHang3r wrote: »

Mmx1991 wrote: »

CoatHang3r wrote: »

See simply put, every definition I have come across requires that for gambling to occur you need to put up something of value (hint units have zero value) for a chance at being awarded something of value (hint there is zero value in any item in game refer to the TOS).

I don't care what the TOS says.

Units and shards CAN be purchased. You spin them for a chance at something. You can win or lose. It's gambling straight up.

Under what definition? Oh wait you are not worried about what is established nor contracts as you’ve already chosen to ignore the contract you entered into.

P.s. you always wi.

Not all contracts are legal. You can't have a contract to sell you own kid or own a slave. You guys keep throwing the TOS around like it's airtight. It's just a bunch of words that may or may not hold it court.

Snizzbar wrote: »

“Apps offering ‘loot boxes’ or other mechanisms that provide randomized virtual items for purchase must disclose the odds of receiving each type of item to customers prior to purchase.”
That's straight from the App Store guidelines. There is no mention of gambling, so why is everyone going on about it?
By the definition of loot boxes used in the official Apple guidelines, the in game crystals are loot boxes, and therefore Kabam must follow the rules set by Apple if they want MCoC to stay in the app store.

Are you sure about that? It’s related to loot boxes you can purchase. Apple’s guidlines have included a no gifting of IAPs clause for 2 years now, yet we’re gifting today.

They may be able to set provisions on App Store Purchases, but they do not have the ability or the legal jurisdiction to mandate disclosing anything purchased in-game, using in-game currency.

Mmx1991 wrote: »

CoatHang3r wrote: »

Mmx1991 wrote: »

CoatHang3r wrote: »

See simply put, every definition I have come across requires that for gambling to occur you need to put up something of value (hint units have zero value) for a chance at being awarded something of value (hint there is zero value in any item in game refer to the TOS).

I don't care what the TOS says.

Units and shards CAN be purchased. You spin them for a chance at something. You can win or lose. It's gambling straight up.

Under what definition? Oh wait you are not worried about what is established nor contracts as you’ve already chosen to ignore the contract you entered into.

P.s. you always wi.

Not all contracts are legal. You can't have a contract to sell you own kid or own a slave. You guys keep throwing the TOS around like it's airtight. It's just a bunch of words that may or may not hold it court.

Untill a court determines it as invalid it stands. You taking Kabam to court to win an forum argument?

Btw look up the tos challenges that came from Second Life changing their TOS and how people who challenged it lost.

Snizzbar

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

They may be able to set provisions on App Store Purchases, but they do not have the ability or the legal jurisdiction to mandate disclosing anything purchased in-game, using in-game currency.

Nope, but they have the ability and the legal jurisdiction to exclude apps from their own app store for not following the guidelines. How long would Kabam hold out if that actually happened to MCoC? They'd fold in about thirty seconds. Lol.

Snizzbar wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

They may be able to set provisions on App Store Purchases, but they do not have the ability or the legal jurisdiction to mandate disclosing anything purchased in-game, using in-game currency.

Nope, but they have the ability and the legal jurisdiction to exclude apps from their own app store for not following the guidelines. How long would Kabam hold out if that actually happened to MCoC? They'd fold in about thirty seconds. Lol.

You're missing the point of what I'm saying. They're not going to manipulate the game into complying in all its in-app content. That's a stretch, even for my own views on Apple. They can make it a requirement for purchases made in the App Store. They can't force an App to list those things in the game. They do not have the authority, and they're not about to overstep legal bounds. This applies to the App Store.

It's funny how you're against Apple "cramming down it's policies" down Kabam's throats, but you're all for Kabam cramming down whatever it wants down our's.

ViperKingV

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

Except you have no take home on that wager. You can't withdrawal from your Account. You don't own it. You are renting the license to use their product. There is no payout. Ever. Your Account, everything in it, the game itself, is property of Kabam. It's right there in the TOS. Which is why it's not governed by an Age of Majority as Gambling is. It's not Gambling. No matter how people spin it.

If you’re trying to say that a digital reward is not an item of value, that is certainly untrue. Whatever you want to call it, Players pay money to buy chances at winning rare game items that help us compete in the game. Kabam shouldn’t need to be forced to provide us with the odds for the items they make available for us to purchase, they should do it on principal. If Kabam chooses not to comply with Apple’s new guidelines or changes aspects of the game to avoid posting odds, my conclusion will be, that The company & forum Mods have not been honest with us. There is no reason for them not to do it, unless the odds are not fixed percentages, and in game modifiers are being used to determine outcomes. Posting the odds will not result in lower game revenues.
While we are awaiting Kabam’s response, I ask the Mods to clear up one thing. The 5* Premium Hero Crystals Cost 5000 shards more than a basic 5* crystal. 5,000 shards whether you buy them or earn them, they have a real $ cost/value to most players. Im not sure how this number was calculated but there seems to be a player consensus that the probability of getting the featured champ Is between 20-25%. Can we get some response if not an actual number?
Does the additional 5,000 5* shards for a featured 5* crystal provide at least a 20% probability to pull the featured champ?

ViperKingV wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

Except you have no take home on that wager. You can't withdrawal from your Account. You don't own it. You are renting the license to use their product. There is no payout. Ever. Your Account, everything in it, the game itself, is property of Kabam. It's right there in the TOS. Which is why it's not governed by an Age of Majority as Gambling is. It's not Gambling. No matter how people spin it.

If you’re trying to say that a digital reward is not an item of value, that is certainly untrue. Whatever you want to call it, Players pay money to buy chances at winning rare game items that help us compete in the game. Kabam shouldn’t need to be forced to provide us with the odds for the items they make available for us to purchase, they should do it on principal. If Kabam chooses not to comply with Apple’s new guidelines or changes aspects of the game to avoid posting odds, my conclusion will be, that The company & forum Mods have not been honest with us. There is no reason for them not to do it, unless the odds are not fixed percentages, and in game modifiers are being used to determine outcomes. Posting the odds will not result in lower game revenues.
While we are awaiting Kabam’s response, I ask the Mods to clear up one thing. The 5* Premium Hero Crystals Cost 5000 shards more than a basic 5* crystal. 5,000 shards whether you buy them or earn them, they have a real $ cost/value to most players. Im not sure how this number was calculated but there seems to be a player consensus that the probability of getting the featured champ Is between 20-25%. Can we get some response if not an actual number?
Does the additional 5,000 5* shards for a featured 5* crystal provide at least a 20% probability to pull the featured champ?

You're not purchasing the Items. Any purchase made belongs to Kabam. You are in essence renting permission to use it. There is no return on purchases made. You don't own the Items, the Account, or any part thereof. As for the conjecture, I do not agree that they haven't been honest with us, so I will leave it as your view.

Mmx1991 wrote: »

It's funny how you're against Apple "cramming down it's policies" down Kabam's throats, but you're all for Kabam cramming down whatever it wants down our's.

My views on Apple extend much further than this game, which is why I've kept them to myself, save for a question answered. I do not purchase Apple. I do not support the company. There's a reason I play Android. However, we are on a Website provided by Kabam, who produce the game we are discussing. Lol. No one is cramming anything down anyone's throat or forcing us to do anything.

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

Mmx1991 wrote: »

It's funny how you're against Apple "cramming down it's policies" down Kabam's throats, but you're all for Kabam cramming down whatever it wants down our's.

My views on Apple extend much further than this game, which is why I've kept them to myself, save for a question answered. I do not purchase Apple. I do not support the company. There's a reason I play Android. However, we are on a Website provided by Kabam, who produce the game we are discussing. Lol. No one is cramming anything down anyone's throat or forcing us to do anything.

You're against Apple imposing it's might on Kabam with it's App Store policy, yet you're for Kabam imposing and enforcing their policies on us. You remind us all the time, "It's Kabam's game they can do what they want". So can Apple.

The negative views you have towards Apple are the same many of us have towards Kabam.

World Eater

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

BitterSteel wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

MikeHock wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

That's what it's all about. Not people saving Units. Unhappy people going after Kabam because they didn't like their drops. At least in this community it is.

Drop rates help to provide transparency; this is a fact. Your "conspiracy" and "witch hunt" nonsense is just your biased opinion.

It's not conspiracy. It's based on the reactions. The implications are conspiracy. Thread upon Thread implying that they alter drop rates, the rates are rigged, outside factors affect what you spin, spenders get better drops, the list goes on. Every single one of them begins with someone being dissatisfied with what they're getting. Even in this discussion, it never ends. Nor will it. Regardless of what numbers are potentially released, it will continue. Skepticism about honesty and transparency. The word is thrown around a great deal, but it's become a catch phrase whenever people feel entitled to know every aspect. Transparency also requires trust. Of which there is very little in a discussion such as this. The simple fact is, whether they release the numbers or not, we're going to have drops we don't like. That won't change. That's something we will have to accept.

What would your response be it turned out that kabam did manipulate drop rates based on spending or something like that? I’m interested in what you’d think about that.

I'm not commenting on conspiracy.

Omg, you're the one who first brought it up in this thread!

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

The whole reason people want to know, in my opinion, is to start a Witch Hunt. I've been a gamer more years than I care to admit. If people want something, they go for it. The TL:DR of this is, "We want to know because we never trusted the drop rates".

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

Precisely. Conspiracy.

Do you have selective memory?

MikeHock wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

BitterSteel wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

MikeHock wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

That's what it's all about. Not people saving Units. Unhappy people going after Kabam because they didn't like their drops. At least in this community it is.

Drop rates help to provide transparency; this is a fact. Your "conspiracy" and "witch hunt" nonsense is just your biased opinion.

It's not conspiracy. It's based on the reactions. The implications are conspiracy. Thread upon Thread implying that they alter drop rates, the rates are rigged, outside factors affect what you spin, spenders get better drops, the list goes on. Every single one of them begins with someone being dissatisfied with what they're getting. Even in this discussion, it never ends. Nor will it. Regardless of what numbers are potentially released, it will continue. Skepticism about honesty and transparency. The word is thrown around a great deal, but it's become a catch phrase whenever people feel entitled to know every aspect. Transparency also requires trust. Of which there is very little in a discussion such as this. The simple fact is, whether they release the numbers or not, we're going to have drops we don't like. That won't change. That's something we will have to accept.

What would your response be it turned out that kabam did manipulate drop rates based on spending or something like that? I’m interested in what you’d think about that.

I'm not commenting on conspiracy.

Omg, you're the one who first brought it up in this thread!

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

The whole reason people want to know, in my opinion, is to start a Witch Hunt. I've been a gamer more years than I care to admit. If people want something, they go for it. The TL:DR of this is, "We want to know because we never trusted the drop rates".

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

Precisely. Conspiracy.

Do you have selective memory?

I would suggest looking into the meaning of conspiracy because you've cited it several times and it still doesn't apply.

I'm quite aware of my own Posts. When I express an opinion, that's not conspiracy. Especially when I explicitly state that it's my opinion. That opinion is based on countless conspiracies posted, over the span of years. If I were to say, "The Players teamed up with Apple to expose Kabam for altering the drops!", that would be conspiracy. When I say my opinion is that the root of wanting to know drop rates is to continue an already-existing Witch Hunt, that's not an assertion. That's an opinion. An opinion that's supported by the reactions in this very Thread. So concludes this mental exercise.