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So what's the deal with dani's buff?

2

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    Heruzu369Heruzu369 Posts: 78 ★
    BitterSteel said:

    Heruzu369 said:


    I mean a top tier player like Bittersteel said a she’s TOP TEN in the worst class in the game!

    I’m pretty sure I never said that
    Excuse me I stand corrected, it was Wednesday Length who said that. Apologies for false claims, all these long answers and replies to those gets convoluted at times. But since we’re on the topic, where would YOU(BitterSteel) place Dani in her class and compared to all last years champs. You have enough acknowledgment of skill in the community that I’m sure people would be interested and value your opinion.
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    Drago_von_DragoDrago_von_Drago Posts: 768 ★★★★
    WednesdayLength said:


    No, she's not mid at best, at best she's very easily top 10 mutants in the game and when you actually get the hang of her rotation her damage is absurd and she has a super reliable evade and unstoppable counter that isn't common in mutants.

    Who would you list as the top 10 mutants? I know there’s some contention once you get past the top 5ish and I don’t know Dani well but I have a hard time seeing her in the top 10.

    Not that she needs to be, that’s just a big claim so I’m curious.

    I always hope new champs are either solidly in the top 10 of their class or do something new and unique. I don’t think Dani is solidly in the top 10 and what she does that’s new and unique is a bit flawed with the whole relying on miss when marketed towards champs that can avoid missing situation. I think the kit is a bit of a miss and I appreciate they fixed it a bit with the rebalance but I don’t know that it’s enough.
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    WednesdayLengthWednesdayLength Posts: 201 ★★
    Hector_1475 said:

    WednesdayLength said:

    Lpoo said:

    She was so close to being an effective design, but it kind of feels like she’ll fade away deep into the mutant bench

    She's still easily top 10 mutants and will undoubtedly have value moving forward because of her unique utility within the class


    I stand by it. what's your top 10?
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    WednesdayLengthWednesdayLength Posts: 201 ★★
    JAYIRI said:

    All it takes is one little node to mess Dani up in the slightest. Where it being unstoppable, evade, miss or even power gain. She's so impractical one wrong thing ruins it all. How can u design a champion like that. Who even designed her. I really looked forward to her and expected a whole rework but they did literally nothing. The person that designed her has absolutely no knowledge about this game I swear to God.
    Okay let's say things play out in your favor "SHE DOESN'T EVEN CRIT" so much wrong with this character.
    And I blame whoever designed her for messing her up

    archangel is ruined by bleed immunity, hercules is ruined in any fate seal or nullify match, quake is ruined by true strike. that doesn't make someone a bad champ
  • Options
    WednesdayLengthWednesdayLength Posts: 201 ★★
    Sunstar19 said:

    Why is Dani a great counter for Zemo, and how do you play her in such a fight? Zemo is one of the more annoying defenders for me and I still disliked facing Zemo

    everytime he throws an sp1 you gain a disorient which gives her an illusion without needing to build to 10 combo. you can literally just intercept and bait sp1 and you'll be untouchable for the entire fight. plus when he shrugs off her neuroshocks they get reapplied
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    WednesdayLengthWednesdayLength Posts: 201 ★★
    Hector_1475 said:

    WednesdayLength said:

    Lpoo said:

    She was so close to being an effective design, but it kind of feels like she’ll fade away deep into the mutant bench

    She's still easily top 10 mutants and will undoubtedly have value moving forward because of her unique utility within the class


    I stand by it. what's your top 10?
    Heruzu369 said:

    BitterSteel said:

    Heruzu369 said:


    I mean a top tier player like Bittersteel said a she’s TOP TEN in the worst class in the game!

    I’m pretty sure I never said that
    Excuse me I stand corrected, it was Wednesday Length who said that. Apologies for false claims, all these long answers and replies to those gets convoluted at times. But since we’re on the topic, where would YOU(BitterSteel) place Dani in her class and compared to all last years champs. You have enough acknowledgment of skill in the community that I’m sure people would be interested and value your opinion.
    what's your top 10 mutants then?
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    WednesdayLengthWednesdayLength Posts: 201 ★★
    Drago_von_Drago said:

    WednesdayLength said:


    No, she's not mid at best, at best she's very easily top 10 mutants in the game and when you actually get the hang of her rotation her damage is absurd and she has a super reliable evade and unstoppable counter that isn't common in mutants.

    Who would you list as the top 10 mutants? I know there’s some contention once you get past the top 5ish and I don’t know Dani well but I have a hard time seeing her in the top 10.

    Not that she needs to be, that’s just a big claim so I’m curious.

    I always hope new champs are either solidly in the top 10 of their class or do something new and unique. I don’t think Dani is solidly in the top 10 and what she does that’s new and unique is a bit flawed with the whole relying on miss when marketed towards champs that can avoid missing situation. I think the kit is a bit of a miss and I appreciate they fixed it a bit with the rebalance but I don’t know that it’s enough.
    I think in terms of her entire kit in the context of the current game she's top 10. most of the big mutants are either outdated or the game has moved past them
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    Wicket329Wicket329 Posts: 3,029 ★★★★★
    edited January 12
    Drago_von_Drago said:

    Seems odd to claim she’s top 10, then ask for my list and not give your own to back it up but here’s an attempt.

    I think the easy ones in no particular order are

    Kitty
    Onslaught
    Archangel
    Apoc
    Red Mags
    Prof X
    Omega Red

    That’s 7

    I could also see any these rounding out the top 10 based on preferences.

    Colossus
    Sunspot
    Bishop
    Domino
    Toad
    Iceman
    Emma
    Storm
    White mags

    And that’s ignoring horseman gambit with his relic and horseman Wolverine to make it simpler.

    I can see some people putting Dani above some of them but I don’t think she’s solidly above the first 4 on this second list for me and that puts her at 12 at best for me and maybe not even there. I do admit I don’t have much experience with her so maybe I’m missing something.


    Not disagreeing with your list, but I’d just add playstyle/mastery considerations. For example, I recognize that Omega Red is a phenomenal champ, but also I do not like to play him. So he wouldn’t be in my personal top ten, but I’d never disagree with anybody else rating him that highly.

    Similarly, a thing I keep seeing brought up that people like about Dani is her having a smooth playstyle. So it could be that part of what they like about her is the flow of combat that she provides.
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    ItsClobberinTimeItsClobberinTime Posts: 3,295 ★★★★★
    altavista said:

    ItsClobberinTime said:

    BitterSteel said:

    ItsClobberinTime said:

    BitterSteel said:

    ItsClobberinTime said:

    WednesdayLength said:

    ItsClobberinTime said:

    GalactikDonut said:

    i believe the arrows applying at the start of specials does fix her match up against fury. before you’d apply the marked passive after the special so if the special killed his first life it wouldn’t do anything

    That's not the problem against Nick Fury, well not the main one at least. The main one is he can't miss if he has 5 charges, he shuts down Dani Moonstar completely the second he gets to 5.
    you can deal with him you just have to parry and mlm, it's not perfect but it's nowhere near impossible
    It's not impossible but in BGs it's: ton of block damage + very slow fight = lost round unless your opponent is terrible.
    I think you’re overstating it a bit. In my experience, you start the fight by doing MLM, parry. That has an expected tactical charge gain of -0.25 (each hit has a 25% chance, and the parry has -1 due to it being a well timed block). So if you MLM parry until Nick has just below a bar of power, you will very rarely have him on above 1 tactical charge. Of course it’s RNG, but it’s mitigated and swung in your favour. If he has extra, throw in an extra parry before you push him above. This stage of the fight is entirely in your control.

    In my experience, once you push him above a bar of power to get him to sp2, you only hit Nick fury around 15 times above a bar of power in order to get to your sp2. That’s an expected charge gain of 3-4 at 25% chance. And that’s assuming you don’t get any parries or re parries in, which are -1 per.

    So as long as you play it right, the odds are you control the fight. And if you play it right, it’s a 40 second fight

    Is she the best option? No, probably not. And that’s something I wish she hadn’t been marketed towards, the whole Nick fury counter dead means dead. To some people that means she won’t be useful, and that’s fine if you only want her for that.

    But tons of block damage? Not really, Nick doesn’t hit hard in first life, and you’re not taking that many hits on block with only a few parries, hits into phase, and the occasional reparry.

    Very slow fight? Only if you either play it wrong, and don’t control his charges, or if you get supremely unlucky, and I don’t mean a bit of bad luck, but if you do 15 hits and he gets 7+ charges from it (because if he gets 5-6 that’s easy enough to let drop off) then those are pretty gnarly odds. You’re looking at 40-60 second fights, which win a hell of a lot of BGs matches against a defender that usually has a dangerous second life that takes health from you.

    Dani also isn’t just a Nick counter. She’s a pretty strong nuke for general matches, I will preface with wanting a 5 or 6 star gambit relic, but over time those only become more and more common (literally, you can’t lose them). Needing a relic nowadays is not an excuse to write off how much damage a champ has. I definitely appreciate it can feel like needing two parts of a champ to use them, but relics are part of the game, and those who have both are happy, those who have one need the other piece. No different to a dupe.

    She’s the best Zemo counter in the game, who is a sneaky defender, she’s a fantastic skill option in general, and I think with 7*s we will see her become a little more useful than she is.

    Overall, I don’t think Dani is a top option, but there’s always a danger of saying “well she’s not top, so I’ll never use her”. It’s not either or, and you personally don’t have to use her for her to have value in the game.

    I’m a little disappointed she didn’t get more from the tune up, and it is an odd feeling to rely on miss for champs that counter it, but that doesn’t mean it has to swing all the way to the other end of the scale of “she’s terrible”. She has value to me, I have a 7* I’d love to dupe, and R2. For me, she’s fun, and that’s enough.
    So she's a Nick Fury counter but you still have to play differently and carefully so he doesn't get to 5 charges. That's exactly my problem, how are they going to market a champ as a counter for something and then for it to actually work you have to go out of your way to parry a lot and hope RNG doesn't screw you if you get very unlucky?
    Since when was playing differently and carefully the mark of a bad counter? Mantis has to be played carefully and differently to fight photon, she’s still the best counter in the game. It’s not automatic.

    RNG is always a part of the game, and 1) something very unlikely, and 2) something you have control over by parrying, is not (again) the mark of a bad counter. There are fringe cases, very rare cases where this happens but it’s not nearly as much of a problem as you think, I believe.


    “I get that you can control the fight and 8 times out of 10 RNG will work in your favor but why would I do that when I can I just use other reliable mutants?“
    That’s your question to answer, if you don’t want to use Dani you absolutely don’t have to. I get why you’re asking it, but I think you’re reducing Dani to a Nick counter and only a Nick counter. That’s not something I blame you for as we’ve both mentioned how we don’t like her being marketed towards Nick and only Nick. You can have her in the deck as more of a general champ, miss counters aren’t on every champ, and then if she comes up for Nick, you know how to use her.

    I think the issue here is how much people were expecting from re-balancing. This was not the redesigning program - and I’m not drawing a distinction between you and me here, I actively suggested changes for Dani to help with Nick - the neuros activating on the first hit of the special was an idea I had and suggested and I’m glad they implemented it. I also suggested things that would help further against Nick, like if a champ prevented her miss on a well timed block she retained the falter, or was able to re trigger it. So you could parry Nick’s charges away.

    But I was always suggesting the with the knowledge that that’s a big change to add to a champ, and does fundamentally change how they work. That’s not, and never was, what the balancing program was for. They’re almost exclusively for tune ups, not new abilities. I’d have chosen to add more, and tune up more to Dani, but it’s not up to me. And it doesn’t make her bad just because she’s not perfect.


    How? I've used Mantis against Photon and it's the same rotation you use for any other champ. If you use Dani against Nick on the other hand and the charges start to get out of control you have to parry til he's at 0 cause if he goes above 5 it will slow you down, the higher he goes the worse it gets. Sure it's not a big deal since you can just parry like crazy but I hate when stuff like this depends mostly on luck even if that luck is tuned in your favor most of the time.

    Yes I absolutely won't use her, what I'm saying is we shouldn't be pretending like they did a good job with her cause even after the buff she's mid at best and not because she has bad damage or bad utility, she simply doesn't have anything in her kit that would make her better than the other 10-15 top mutant options in the game. Is she fun? Maybe, I'm not here to judge that cause it's subjective. Do I gain any advantages by using her instead of the other top champs in the mutant class? I don't think so. That's my thought process.
    Also, she's easily the second worst champ released last year (the mutant class has been the worst for a bit now so it's not like we even needed this). On top of that, there's a possibility this will change depending on how good Gladiator's buff is, I wouldn't be surprised if she ends up being the worst after he gets buffed.
    It seems like you've made up your mind about Dani and no amount of evidence that Bittersteel is providing will change your mind. If you don't like a champion, you can always play the "but what about" game with them.

    "Duped Valkyrie is the best Thing counter. But what about low sig? Then you have to change your playstyle until then. But that means she is not the best counter!"

    There is no problem with Kabam releasing a new mid champion (whether they are mid or not, is subjective). The fact that a new champion is Mutant class doesn't necessarily mean that they must be great. A buff doesn't have to move a champion form Mid to Great (again, subjective). Some people consider Dani a Top 10 Mutant, and some do not. It would be great if all 2023 champions were great, but even if they are all great, someone always has to be in the bottom 2..
    It's not that there isn't any evidence, it's just common sense. Why would I want to use her over the other top 10 mutants? Just because BitterSteel likes her doesn't mean she's objectively good, when you compare her to the top mutants she falls short and most of the playerbase agrees. Why do you think that is? Lol
  • Options
    JAYIRIJAYIRI Posts: 123 ★
    WednesdayLength said:

    JAYIRI said:

    All it takes is one little node to mess Dani up in the slightest. Where it being unstoppable, evade, miss or even power gain. She's so impractical one wrong thing ruins it all. How can u design a champion like that. Who even designed her. I really looked forward to her and expected a whole rework but they did literally nothing. The person that designed her has absolutely no knowledge about this game I swear to God.
    Okay let's say things play out in your favor "SHE DOESN'T EVEN CRIT" so much wrong with this character.
    And I blame whoever designed her for messing her up

    archangel is ruined by bleed immunity, hercules is ruined in any fate seal or nullify match, quake is ruined by true strike. that doesn't make someone a bad champ
    You would sound smart if you knew what you were saying.
    Dani moonstar is ruined by literally any node in the entire game
    She has so many things that need to fall into place and a slight change of plans like a node altering your playstyle ruins literally her entire rotation and you will have no way to fix it. Whether it be she's gaining power or ur trying to even bait out a special. The champs you mentioned have weaknesses and unideal matchups Dani moonstar is simply a bad champion with too many things that can go wrong. She can literally be ruined by ANY NODE in the game.
    It hurts me to say this as I have her as a r4 and never play her.
  • Options
    JAYIRIJAYIRI Posts: 123 ★
    JAYIRI said:

    WednesdayLength said:

    JAYIRI said:

    All it takes is one little node to mess Dani up in the slightest. Where it being unstoppable, evade, miss or even power gain. She's so impractical one wrong thing ruins it all. How can u design a champion like that. Who even designed her. I really looked forward to her and expected a whole rework but they did literally nothing. The person that designed her has absolutely no knowledge about this game I swear to God.
    Okay let's say things play out in your favor "SHE DOESN'T EVEN CRIT" so much wrong with this character.
    And I blame whoever designed her for messing her up

    archangel is ruined by bleed immunity, hercules is ruined in any fate seal or nullify match, quake is ruined by true strike. that doesn't make someone a bad champ
    You would sound smart if you knew what you were saying.
    Dani moonstar is ruined by literally any node in the entire game
    She has so many things that need to fall into place and a slight change of plans like a node altering your playstyle ruins literally her entire rotation and you will have no way to fix it. Whether it be she's gaining power or ur trying to even bait out a special. The champs you mentioned have weaknesses and unideal matchups Dani moonstar is simply a bad champion with too many things that can go wrong. She can literally be ruined by ANY NODE in the game.
    It hurts me to say this as I have her as a r4 and never play her.
    And it pisses me off so much more because kabam can literally fix her if they paid attention and devoted time to work on her but they choose to ignore the community
  • Options
    WednesdayLengthWednesdayLength Posts: 201 ★★
    Drago_von_Drago said:

    Seems odd to claim she’s top 10, then ask for my list and not give your own to back it up but here’s an attempt.

    I think the easy ones in no particular order are

    Kitty
    Onslaught
    Archangel
    Apoc
    Red Mags
    Prof X
    Omega Red

    That’s 7

    I could also see any these rounding out the top 10 based on preferences.

    Colossus
    Sunspot
    Bishop
    Domino
    Toad
    Iceman
    Emma
    Storm
    White mags

    And that’s ignoring horseman gambit with his relic and horseman Wolverine to make it simpler.

    I can see some people putting Dani above some of them but I don’t think she’s solidly above the first 4 on this second list for me and that puts her at 12 at best for me and maybe not even there. I do admit I don’t have much experience with her so maybe I’m missing something.


    apocalypse absolutely doesn't deserve top 10, and omega red is great but i don't think he's an easy choice. i'd say she's on par with professor x at the very least and if we're going on the rest of your list she's easily better than domino, storm, emma, iceman and colossus
  • Options
    WednesdayLengthWednesdayLength Posts: 201 ★★
    JAYIRI said:

    WednesdayLength said:

    JAYIRI said:

    All it takes is one little node to mess Dani up in the slightest. Where it being unstoppable, evade, miss or even power gain. She's so impractical one wrong thing ruins it all. How can u design a champion like that. Who even designed her. I really looked forward to her and expected a whole rework but they did literally nothing. The person that designed her has absolutely no knowledge about this game I swear to God.
    Okay let's say things play out in your favor "SHE DOESN'T EVEN CRIT" so much wrong with this character.
    And I blame whoever designed her for messing her up

    archangel is ruined by bleed immunity, hercules is ruined in any fate seal or nullify match, quake is ruined by true strike. that doesn't make someone a bad champ
    You would sound smart if you knew what you were saying.
    Dani moonstar is ruined by literally any node in the entire game
    She has so many things that need to fall into place and a slight change of plans like a node altering your playstyle ruins literally her entire rotation and you will have no way to fix it. Whether it be she's gaining power or ur trying to even bait out a special. The champs you mentioned have weaknesses and unideal matchups Dani moonstar is simply a bad champion with too many things that can go wrong. She can literally be ruined by ANY NODE in the game.
    It hurts me to say this as I have her as a r4 and never play her.
    she has no more things that ruin her than any other champ of her level
  • Options
    WednesdayLengthWednesdayLength Posts: 201 ★★
    JAYIRI said:

    JAYIRI said:

    WednesdayLength said:

    JAYIRI said:

    All it takes is one little node to mess Dani up in the slightest. Where it being unstoppable, evade, miss or even power gain. She's so impractical one wrong thing ruins it all. How can u design a champion like that. Who even designed her. I really looked forward to her and expected a whole rework but they did literally nothing. The person that designed her has absolutely no knowledge about this game I swear to God.
    Okay let's say things play out in your favor "SHE DOESN'T EVEN CRIT" so much wrong with this character.
    And I blame whoever designed her for messing her up

    archangel is ruined by bleed immunity, hercules is ruined in any fate seal or nullify match, quake is ruined by true strike. that doesn't make someone a bad champ
    You would sound smart if you knew what you were saying.
    Dani moonstar is ruined by literally any node in the entire game
    She has so many things that need to fall into place and a slight change of plans like a node altering your playstyle ruins literally her entire rotation and you will have no way to fix it. Whether it be she's gaining power or ur trying to even bait out a special. The champs you mentioned have weaknesses and unideal matchups Dani moonstar is simply a bad champion with too many things that can go wrong. She can literally be ruined by ANY NODE in the game.
    It hurts me to say this as I have her as a r4 and never play her.
    And it pisses me off so much more because kabam can literally fix her if they paid attention and devoted time to work on her but they choose to ignore the community
    almost like the rebalancing was specifically about how kabam viewed where she should be and not the playerbase wanting her to fit their playstyle? they fixed her big issues
  • Options
    WednesdayLengthWednesdayLength Posts: 201 ★★
    JAYIRI said:

    WednesdayLength said:

    JAYIRI said:

    All it takes is one little node to mess Dani up in the slightest. Where it being unstoppable, evade, miss or even power gain. She's so impractical one wrong thing ruins it all. How can u design a champion like that. Who even designed her. I really looked forward to her and expected a whole rework but they did literally nothing. The person that designed her has absolutely no knowledge about this game I swear to God.
    Okay let's say things play out in your favor "SHE DOESN'T EVEN CRIT" so much wrong with this character.
    And I blame whoever designed her for messing her up

    archangel is ruined by bleed immunity, hercules is ruined in any fate seal or nullify match, quake is ruined by true strike. that doesn't make someone a bad champ
    You would sound smart if you knew what you were saying.
    Dani moonstar is ruined by literally any node in the entire game
    She has so many things that need to fall into place and a slight change of plans like a node altering your playstyle ruins literally her entire rotation and you will have no way to fix it. Whether it be she's gaining power or ur trying to even bait out a special. The champs you mentioned have weaknesses and unideal matchups Dani moonstar is simply a bad champion with too many things that can go wrong. She can literally be ruined by ANY NODE in the game.
    It hurts me to say this as I have her as a r4 and never play her.
    you're severely overestimating what can ruin her it's wild. her playstyle is literally only affected by miss counter or prowess removal
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    HarryatomixHarryatomix Posts: 104 ★
    BitterSteel said:

    altavista said:

    ItsClobberinTime said:

    BitterSteel said:

    ItsClobberinTime said:

    BitterSteel said:

    ItsClobberinTime said:

    WednesdayLength said:

    ItsClobberinTime said:

    GalactikDonut said:

    i believe the arrows applying at the start of specials does fix her match up against fury. before you’d apply the marked passive after the special so if the special killed his first life it wouldn’t do anything

    That's not the problem against Nick Fury, well not the main one at least. The main one is he can't miss if he has 5 charges, he shuts down Dani Moonstar completely the second he gets to 5.
    you can deal with him you just have to parry and mlm, it's not perfect but it's nowhere near impossible
    It's not impossible but in BGs it's: ton of block damage + very slow fight = lost round unless your opponent is terrible.
    I think you’re overstating it a bit. In my experience, you start the fight by doing MLM, parry. That has an expected tactical charge gain of -0.25 (each hit has a 25% chance, and the parry has -1 due to it being a well timed block). So if you MLM parry until Nick has just below a bar of power, you will very rarely have him on above 1 tactical charge. Of course it’s RNG, but it’s mitigated and swung in your favour. If he has extra, throw in an extra parry before you push him above. This stage of the fight is entirely in your control.

    In my experience, once you push him above a bar of power to get him to sp2, you only hit Nick fury around 15 times above a bar of power in order to get to your sp2. That’s an expected charge gain of 3-4 at 25% chance. And that’s assuming you don’t get any parries or re parries in, which are -1 per.

    So as long as you play it right, the odds are you control the fight. And if you play it right, it’s a 40 second fight

    Is she the best option? No, probably not. And that’s something I wish she hadn’t been marketed towards, the whole Nick fury counter dead means dead. To some people that means she won’t be useful, and that’s fine if you only want her for that.

    But tons of block damage? Not really, Nick doesn’t hit hard in first life, and you’re not taking that many hits on block with only a few parries, hits into phase, and the occasional reparry.

    Very slow fight? Only if you either play it wrong, and don’t control his charges, or if you get supremely unlucky, and I don’t mean a bit of bad luck, but if you do 15 hits and he gets 7+ charges from it (because if he gets 5-6 that’s easy enough to let drop off) then those are pretty gnarly odds. You’re looking at 40-60 second fights, which win a hell of a lot of BGs matches against a defender that usually has a dangerous second life that takes health from you.

    Dani also isn’t just a Nick counter. She’s a pretty strong nuke for general matches, I will preface with wanting a 5 or 6 star gambit relic, but over time those only become more and more common (literally, you can’t lose them). Needing a relic nowadays is not an excuse to write off how much damage a champ has. I definitely appreciate it can feel like needing two parts of a champ to use them, but relics are part of the game, and those who have both are happy, those who have one need the other piece. No different to a dupe.

    She’s the best Zemo counter in the game, who is a sneaky defender, she’s a fantastic skill option in general, and I think with 7*s we will see her become a little more useful than she is.

    Overall, I don’t think Dani is a top option, but there’s always a danger of saying “well she’s not top, so I’ll never use her”. It’s not either or, and you personally don’t have to use her for her to have value in the game.

    I’m a little disappointed she didn’t get more from the tune up, and it is an odd feeling to rely on miss for champs that counter it, but that doesn’t mean it has to swing all the way to the other end of the scale of “she’s terrible”. She has value to me, I have a 7* I’d love to dupe, and R2. For me, she’s fun, and that’s enough.
    So she's a Nick Fury counter but you still have to play differently and carefully so he doesn't get to 5 charges. That's exactly my problem, how are they going to market a champ as a counter for something and then for it to actually work you have to go out of your way to parry a lot and hope RNG doesn't screw you if you get very unlucky?
    Since when was playing differently and carefully the mark of a bad counter? Mantis has to be played carefully and differently to fight photon, she’s still the best counter in the game. It’s not automatic.

    RNG is always a part of the game, and 1) something very unlikely, and 2) something you have control over by parrying, is not (again) the mark of a bad counter. There are fringe cases, very rare cases where this happens but it’s not nearly as much of a problem as you think, I believe.


    “I get that you can control the fight and 8 times out of 10 RNG will work in your favor but why would I do that when I can I just use other reliable mutants?“
    That’s your question to answer, if you don’t want to use Dani you absolutely don’t have to. I get why you’re asking it, but I think you’re reducing Dani to a Nick counter and only a Nick counter. That’s not something I blame you for as we’ve both mentioned how we don’t like her being marketed towards Nick and only Nick. You can have her in the deck as more of a general champ, miss counters aren’t on every champ, and then if she comes up for Nick, you know how to use her.

    I think the issue here is how much people were expecting from re-balancing. This was not the redesigning program - and I’m not drawing a distinction between you and me here, I actively suggested changes for Dani to help with Nick - the neuros activating on the first hit of the special was an idea I had and suggested and I’m glad they implemented it. I also suggested things that would help further against Nick, like if a champ prevented her miss on a well timed block she retained the falter, or was able to re trigger it. So you could parry Nick’s charges away.

    But I was always suggesting the with the knowledge that that’s a big change to add to a champ, and does fundamentally change how they work. That’s not, and never was, what the balancing program was for. They’re almost exclusively for tune ups, not new abilities. I’d have chosen to add more, and tune up more to Dani, but it’s not up to me. And it doesn’t make her bad just because she’s not perfect.


    How? I've used Mantis against Photon and it's the same rotation you use for any other champ. If you use Dani against Nick on the other hand and the charges start to get out of control you have to parry til he's at 0 cause if he goes above 5 it will slow you down, the higher he goes the worse it gets. Sure it's not a big deal since you can just parry like crazy but I hate when stuff like this depends mostly on luck even if that luck is tuned in your favor most of the time.

    Yes I absolutely won't use her, what I'm saying is we shouldn't be pretending like they did a good job with her cause even after the buff she's mid at best and not because she has bad damage or bad utility, she simply doesn't have anything in her kit that would make her better than the other 10-15 top mutant options in the game. Is she fun? Maybe, I'm not here to judge that cause it's subjective. Do I gain any advantages by using her instead of the other top champs in the mutant class? I don't think so. That's my thought process.
    Also, she's easily the second worst champ released last year (the mutant class has been the worst for a bit now so it's not like we even needed this). On top of that, there's a possibility this will change depending on how good Gladiator's buff is, I wouldn't be surprised if she ends up being the worst after he gets buffed.
    It would be great if all 2023 champions were great, but even if they are all great, someone always has to be in the bottom 2..
    This is the big point people are forgetting, the quality of 2023 is crazy. Look through them, every single one is meta relevant and a good pull for pretty much anyone. People leaving scathing comments saying “ugh, Dani is the WORST 2023 champ” is kinda funny, because even if I personally agreed, it means nothing. They’re all so good, that a champ who is the worst in 2023 could be in the top half in other years.

    Designers aren’t designing champs to be specifically anywhere in the top X of a year, that sounds like an awful design process. If Dani is the “worst” of 2023, ok? That still means she’s good enough to have value.
    Can you please tell me where you use Dani moonstar in the game. You told you were making showcase video for Dani.

    Is it still in queue or have you lost interest in Dani?
  • Options
    BitterSteelBitterSteel Posts: 9,254 ★★★★★
    Harryatomix said:

    BitterSteel said:

    altavista said:

    ItsClobberinTime said:

    BitterSteel said:

    ItsClobberinTime said:

    BitterSteel said:

    ItsClobberinTime said:

    WednesdayLength said:

    ItsClobberinTime said:

    GalactikDonut said:

    i believe the arrows applying at the start of specials does fix her match up against fury. before you’d apply the marked passive after the special so if the special killed his first life it wouldn’t do anything

    That's not the problem against Nick Fury, well not the main one at least. The main one is he can't miss if he has 5 charges, he shuts down Dani Moonstar completely the second he gets to 5.
    you can deal with him you just have to parry and mlm, it's not perfect but it's nowhere near impossible
    It's not impossible but in BGs it's: ton of block damage + very slow fight = lost round unless your opponent is terrible.
    I think you’re overstating it a bit. In my experience, you start the fight by doing MLM, parry. That has an expected tactical charge gain of -0.25 (each hit has a 25% chance, and the parry has -1 due to it being a well timed block). So if you MLM parry until Nick has just below a bar of power, you will very rarely have him on above 1 tactical charge. Of course it’s RNG, but it’s mitigated and swung in your favour. If he has extra, throw in an extra parry before you push him above. This stage of the fight is entirely in your control.

    In my experience, once you push him above a bar of power to get him to sp2, you only hit Nick fury around 15 times above a bar of power in order to get to your sp2. That’s an expected charge gain of 3-4 at 25% chance. And that’s assuming you don’t get any parries or re parries in, which are -1 per.

    So as long as you play it right, the odds are you control the fight. And if you play it right, it’s a 40 second fight

    Is she the best option? No, probably not. And that’s something I wish she hadn’t been marketed towards, the whole Nick fury counter dead means dead. To some people that means she won’t be useful, and that’s fine if you only want her for that.

    But tons of block damage? Not really, Nick doesn’t hit hard in first life, and you’re not taking that many hits on block with only a few parries, hits into phase, and the occasional reparry.

    Very slow fight? Only if you either play it wrong, and don’t control his charges, or if you get supremely unlucky, and I don’t mean a bit of bad luck, but if you do 15 hits and he gets 7+ charges from it (because if he gets 5-6 that’s easy enough to let drop off) then those are pretty gnarly odds. You’re looking at 40-60 second fights, which win a hell of a lot of BGs matches against a defender that usually has a dangerous second life that takes health from you.

    Dani also isn’t just a Nick counter. She’s a pretty strong nuke for general matches, I will preface with wanting a 5 or 6 star gambit relic, but over time those only become more and more common (literally, you can’t lose them). Needing a relic nowadays is not an excuse to write off how much damage a champ has. I definitely appreciate it can feel like needing two parts of a champ to use them, but relics are part of the game, and those who have both are happy, those who have one need the other piece. No different to a dupe.

    She’s the best Zemo counter in the game, who is a sneaky defender, she’s a fantastic skill option in general, and I think with 7*s we will see her become a little more useful than she is.

    Overall, I don’t think Dani is a top option, but there’s always a danger of saying “well she’s not top, so I’ll never use her”. It’s not either or, and you personally don’t have to use her for her to have value in the game.

    I’m a little disappointed she didn’t get more from the tune up, and it is an odd feeling to rely on miss for champs that counter it, but that doesn’t mean it has to swing all the way to the other end of the scale of “she’s terrible”. She has value to me, I have a 7* I’d love to dupe, and R2. For me, she’s fun, and that’s enough.
    So she's a Nick Fury counter but you still have to play differently and carefully so he doesn't get to 5 charges. That's exactly my problem, how are they going to market a champ as a counter for something and then for it to actually work you have to go out of your way to parry a lot and hope RNG doesn't screw you if you get very unlucky?
    Since when was playing differently and carefully the mark of a bad counter? Mantis has to be played carefully and differently to fight photon, she’s still the best counter in the game. It’s not automatic.

    RNG is always a part of the game, and 1) something very unlikely, and 2) something you have control over by parrying, is not (again) the mark of a bad counter. There are fringe cases, very rare cases where this happens but it’s not nearly as much of a problem as you think, I believe.


    “I get that you can control the fight and 8 times out of 10 RNG will work in your favor but why would I do that when I can I just use other reliable mutants?“
    That’s your question to answer, if you don’t want to use Dani you absolutely don’t have to. I get why you’re asking it, but I think you’re reducing Dani to a Nick counter and only a Nick counter. That’s not something I blame you for as we’ve both mentioned how we don’t like her being marketed towards Nick and only Nick. You can have her in the deck as more of a general champ, miss counters aren’t on every champ, and then if she comes up for Nick, you know how to use her.

    I think the issue here is how much people were expecting from re-balancing. This was not the redesigning program - and I’m not drawing a distinction between you and me here, I actively suggested changes for Dani to help with Nick - the neuros activating on the first hit of the special was an idea I had and suggested and I’m glad they implemented it. I also suggested things that would help further against Nick, like if a champ prevented her miss on a well timed block she retained the falter, or was able to re trigger it. So you could parry Nick’s charges away.

    But I was always suggesting the with the knowledge that that’s a big change to add to a champ, and does fundamentally change how they work. That’s not, and never was, what the balancing program was for. They’re almost exclusively for tune ups, not new abilities. I’d have chosen to add more, and tune up more to Dani, but it’s not up to me. And it doesn’t make her bad just because she’s not perfect.


    How? I've used Mantis against Photon and it's the same rotation you use for any other champ. If you use Dani against Nick on the other hand and the charges start to get out of control you have to parry til he's at 0 cause if he goes above 5 it will slow you down, the higher he goes the worse it gets. Sure it's not a big deal since you can just parry like crazy but I hate when stuff like this depends mostly on luck even if that luck is tuned in your favor most of the time.

    Yes I absolutely won't use her, what I'm saying is we shouldn't be pretending like they did a good job with her cause even after the buff she's mid at best and not because she has bad damage or bad utility, she simply doesn't have anything in her kit that would make her better than the other 10-15 top mutant options in the game. Is she fun? Maybe, I'm not here to judge that cause it's subjective. Do I gain any advantages by using her instead of the other top champs in the mutant class? I don't think so. That's my thought process.
    Also, she's easily the second worst champ released last year (the mutant class has been the worst for a bit now so it's not like we even needed this). On top of that, there's a possibility this will change depending on how good Gladiator's buff is, I wouldn't be surprised if she ends up being the worst after he gets buffed.
    It would be great if all 2023 champions were great, but even if they are all great, someone always has to be in the bottom 2..
    This is the big point people are forgetting, the quality of 2023 is crazy. Look through them, every single one is meta relevant and a good pull for pretty much anyone. People leaving scathing comments saying “ugh, Dani is the WORST 2023 champ” is kinda funny, because even if I personally agreed, it means nothing. They’re all so good, that a champ who is the worst in 2023 could be in the top half in other years.

    Designers aren’t designing champs to be specifically anywhere in the top X of a year, that sounds like an awful design process. If Dani is the “worst” of 2023, ok? That still means she’s good enough to have value.
    Can you please tell me where you use Dani moonstar in the game. You told you were making showcase video for Dani.

    Is it still in queue or have you lost interest in Dani?
    I use her in battlegrounds depending on Metas.

    Also was that you commenting this sort of comment on my YT lol, this is starting to feel like a slight obsession with my opinion on Dani. Jumping on every comment I make in any thread about her, and now searching up old videos just to leave comments there too?
  • Options
    SirGamesBondSirGamesBond Posts: 4,220 ★★★★★
    Don't be hating on bittersteel. Disagree when you disagree.

    Im never gonna bring Midstar over other champs.
    The fluidity and smoothness she shows while playing does not output the results you want for a genric fight.
    Middest of mid...
    MIDDD.
    Sup bitter, hope you are fine.
  • Options
    HarryatomixHarryatomix Posts: 104 ★
    BitterSteel said:

    Harryatomix said:

    BitterSteel said:

    altavista said:

    ItsClobberinTime said:

    BitterSteel said:

    ItsClobberinTime said:

    BitterSteel said:

    ItsClobberinTime said:

    WednesdayLength said:

    ItsClobberinTime said:

    GalactikDonut said:

    i believe the arrows applying at the start of specials does fix her match up against fury. before you’d apply the marked passive after the special so if the special killed his first life it wouldn’t do anything

    That's not the problem against Nick Fury, well not the main one at least. The main one is he can't miss if he has 5 charges, he shuts down Dani Moonstar completely the second he gets to 5.
    you can deal with him you just have to parry and mlm, it's not perfect but it's nowhere near impossible
    It's not impossible but in BGs it's: ton of block damage + very slow fight = lost round unless your opponent is terrible.
    I think you’re overstating it a bit. In my experience, you start the fight by doing MLM, parry. That has an expected tactical charge gain of -0.25 (each hit has a 25% chance, and the parry has -1 due to it being a well timed block). So if you MLM parry until Nick has just below a bar of power, you will very rarely have him on above 1 tactical charge. Of course it’s RNG, but it’s mitigated and swung in your favour. If he has extra, throw in an extra parry before you push him above. This stage of the fight is entirely in your control.

    In my experience, once you push him above a bar of power to get him to sp2, you only hit Nick fury around 15 times above a bar of power in order to get to your sp2. That’s an expected charge gain of 3-4 at 25% chance. And that’s assuming you don’t get any parries or re parries in, which are -1 per.

    So as long as you play it right, the odds are you control the fight. And if you play it right, it’s a 40 second fight

    Is she the best option? No, probably not. And that’s something I wish she hadn’t been marketed towards, the whole Nick fury counter dead means dead. To some people that means she won’t be useful, and that’s fine if you only want her for that.

    But tons of block damage? Not really, Nick doesn’t hit hard in first life, and you’re not taking that many hits on block with only a few parries, hits into phase, and the occasional reparry.

    Very slow fight? Only if you either play it wrong, and don’t control his charges, or if you get supremely unlucky, and I don’t mean a bit of bad luck, but if you do 15 hits and he gets 7+ charges from it (because if he gets 5-6 that’s easy enough to let drop off) then those are pretty gnarly odds. You’re looking at 40-60 second fights, which win a hell of a lot of BGs matches against a defender that usually has a dangerous second life that takes health from you.

    Dani also isn’t just a Nick counter. She’s a pretty strong nuke for general matches, I will preface with wanting a 5 or 6 star gambit relic, but over time those only become more and more common (literally, you can’t lose them). Needing a relic nowadays is not an excuse to write off how much damage a champ has. I definitely appreciate it can feel like needing two parts of a champ to use them, but relics are part of the game, and those who have both are happy, those who have one need the other piece. No different to a dupe.

    She’s the best Zemo counter in the game, who is a sneaky defender, she’s a fantastic skill option in general, and I think with 7*s we will see her become a little more useful than she is.

    Overall, I don’t think Dani is a top option, but there’s always a danger of saying “well she’s not top, so I’ll never use her”. It’s not either or, and you personally don’t have to use her for her to have value in the game.

    I’m a little disappointed she didn’t get more from the tune up, and it is an odd feeling to rely on miss for champs that counter it, but that doesn’t mean it has to swing all the way to the other end of the scale of “she’s terrible”. She has value to me, I have a 7* I’d love to dupe, and R2. For me, she’s fun, and that’s enough.
    So she's a Nick Fury counter but you still have to play differently and carefully so he doesn't get to 5 charges. That's exactly my problem, how are they going to market a champ as a counter for something and then for it to actually work you have to go out of your way to parry a lot and hope RNG doesn't screw you if you get very unlucky?
    Since when was playing differently and carefully the mark of a bad counter? Mantis has to be played carefully and differently to fight photon, she’s still the best counter in the game. It’s not automatic.

    RNG is always a part of the game, and 1) something very unlikely, and 2) something you have control over by parrying, is not (again) the mark of a bad counter. There are fringe cases, very rare cases where this happens but it’s not nearly as much of a problem as you think, I believe.


    “I get that you can control the fight and 8 times out of 10 RNG will work in your favor but why would I do that when I can I just use other reliable mutants?“
    That’s your question to answer, if you don’t want to use Dani you absolutely don’t have to. I get why you’re asking it, but I think you’re reducing Dani to a Nick counter and only a Nick counter. That’s not something I blame you for as we’ve both mentioned how we don’t like her being marketed towards Nick and only Nick. You can have her in the deck as more of a general champ, miss counters aren’t on every champ, and then if she comes up for Nick, you know how to use her.

    I think the issue here is how much people were expecting from re-balancing. This was not the redesigning program - and I’m not drawing a distinction between you and me here, I actively suggested changes for Dani to help with Nick - the neuros activating on the first hit of the special was an idea I had and suggested and I’m glad they implemented it. I also suggested things that would help further against Nick, like if a champ prevented her miss on a well timed block she retained the falter, or was able to re trigger it. So you could parry Nick’s charges away.

    But I was always suggesting the with the knowledge that that’s a big change to add to a champ, and does fundamentally change how they work. That’s not, and never was, what the balancing program was for. They’re almost exclusively for tune ups, not new abilities. I’d have chosen to add more, and tune up more to Dani, but it’s not up to me. And it doesn’t make her bad just because she’s not perfect.


    How? I've used Mantis against Photon and it's the same rotation you use for any other champ. If you use Dani against Nick on the other hand and the charges start to get out of control you have to parry til he's at 0 cause if he goes above 5 it will slow you down, the higher he goes the worse it gets. Sure it's not a big deal since you can just parry like crazy but I hate when stuff like this depends mostly on luck even if that luck is tuned in your favor most of the time.

    Yes I absolutely won't use her, what I'm saying is we shouldn't be pretending like they did a good job with her cause even after the buff she's mid at best and not because she has bad damage or bad utility, she simply doesn't have anything in her kit that would make her better than the other 10-15 top mutant options in the game. Is she fun? Maybe, I'm not here to judge that cause it's subjective. Do I gain any advantages by using her instead of the other top champs in the mutant class? I don't think so. That's my thought process.
    Also, she's easily the second worst champ released last year (the mutant class has been the worst for a bit now so it's not like we even needed this). On top of that, there's a possibility this will change depending on how good Gladiator's buff is, I wouldn't be surprised if she ends up being the worst after he gets buffed.
    It would be great if all 2023 champions were great, but even if they are all great, someone always has to be in the bottom 2..
    This is the big point people are forgetting, the quality of 2023 is crazy. Look through them, every single one is meta relevant and a good pull for pretty much anyone. People leaving scathing comments saying “ugh, Dani is the WORST 2023 champ” is kinda funny, because even if I personally agreed, it means nothing. They’re all so good, that a champ who is the worst in 2023 could be in the top half in other years.

    Designers aren’t designing champs to be specifically anywhere in the top X of a year, that sounds like an awful design process. If Dani is the “worst” of 2023, ok? That still means she’s good enough to have value.
    Can you please tell me where you use Dani moonstar in the game. You told you were making showcase video for Dani.

    Is it still in queue or have you lost interest in Dani?
    I use her in battlegrounds depending on Metas.

    Also was that you commenting this sort of comment on my YT lol, this is starting to feel like a slight obsession with my opinion on Dani. Jumping on every comment I make in any thread about her, and now searching up old videos just to leave comments there too?
    Not obsession, I am looking for some guide on her but none makes one. Your video comes first when I search Dani moonstar mcoc in YT lol.

    You praise Dani moonstar but don't even use her. You said you would make a showcase of her but didn't.

    So if you don't mind what is your opinion about Dani, do you suggest people to rank her as this game is getting more and more complex, damage is not every thing. I saw your video on Spiderman og, he did some great things in your hands, can we expect such kind of experience with Dani.

    Thanks.
  • Options
    BitterSteelBitterSteel Posts: 9,254 ★★★★★
    Harryatomix said:

    BitterSteel said:

    Harryatomix said:

    BitterSteel said:

    altavista said:

    ItsClobberinTime said:

    BitterSteel said:

    ItsClobberinTime said:

    BitterSteel said:

    ItsClobberinTime said:

    WednesdayLength said:

    ItsClobberinTime said:

    GalactikDonut said:

    i believe the arrows applying at the start of specials does fix her match up against fury. before you’d apply the marked passive after the special so if the special killed his first life it wouldn’t do anything

    That's not the problem against Nick Fury, well not the main one at least. The main one is he can't miss if he has 5 charges, he shuts down Dani Moonstar completely the second he gets to 5.
    you can deal with him you just have to parry and mlm, it's not perfect but it's nowhere near impossible
    It's not impossible but in BGs it's: ton of block damage + very slow fight = lost round unless your opponent is terrible.
    I think you’re overstating it a bit. In my experience, you start the fight by doing MLM, parry. That has an expected tactical charge gain of -0.25 (each hit has a 25% chance, and the parry has -1 due to it being a well timed block). So if you MLM parry until Nick has just below a bar of power, you will very rarely have him on above 1 tactical charge. Of course it’s RNG, but it’s mitigated and swung in your favour. If he has extra, throw in an extra parry before you push him above. This stage of the fight is entirely in your control.

    In my experience, once you push him above a bar of power to get him to sp2, you only hit Nick fury around 15 times above a bar of power in order to get to your sp2. That’s an expected charge gain of 3-4 at 25% chance. And that’s assuming you don’t get any parries or re parries in, which are -1 per.

    So as long as you play it right, the odds are you control the fight. And if you play it right, it’s a 40 second fight

    Is she the best option? No, probably not. And that’s something I wish she hadn’t been marketed towards, the whole Nick fury counter dead means dead. To some people that means she won’t be useful, and that’s fine if you only want her for that.

    But tons of block damage? Not really, Nick doesn’t hit hard in first life, and you’re not taking that many hits on block with only a few parries, hits into phase, and the occasional reparry.

    Very slow fight? Only if you either play it wrong, and don’t control his charges, or if you get supremely unlucky, and I don’t mean a bit of bad luck, but if you do 15 hits and he gets 7+ charges from it (because if he gets 5-6 that’s easy enough to let drop off) then those are pretty gnarly odds. You’re looking at 40-60 second fights, which win a hell of a lot of BGs matches against a defender that usually has a dangerous second life that takes health from you.

    Dani also isn’t just a Nick counter. She’s a pretty strong nuke for general matches, I will preface with wanting a 5 or 6 star gambit relic, but over time those only become more and more common (literally, you can’t lose them). Needing a relic nowadays is not an excuse to write off how much damage a champ has. I definitely appreciate it can feel like needing two parts of a champ to use them, but relics are part of the game, and those who have both are happy, those who have one need the other piece. No different to a dupe.

    She’s the best Zemo counter in the game, who is a sneaky defender, she’s a fantastic skill option in general, and I think with 7*s we will see her become a little more useful than she is.

    Overall, I don’t think Dani is a top option, but there’s always a danger of saying “well she’s not top, so I’ll never use her”. It’s not either or, and you personally don’t have to use her for her to have value in the game.

    I’m a little disappointed she didn’t get more from the tune up, and it is an odd feeling to rely on miss for champs that counter it, but that doesn’t mean it has to swing all the way to the other end of the scale of “she’s terrible”. She has value to me, I have a 7* I’d love to dupe, and R2. For me, she’s fun, and that’s enough.
    So she's a Nick Fury counter but you still have to play differently and carefully so he doesn't get to 5 charges. That's exactly my problem, how are they going to market a champ as a counter for something and then for it to actually work you have to go out of your way to parry a lot and hope RNG doesn't screw you if you get very unlucky?
    Since when was playing differently and carefully the mark of a bad counter? Mantis has to be played carefully and differently to fight photon, she’s still the best counter in the game. It’s not automatic.

    RNG is always a part of the game, and 1) something very unlikely, and 2) something you have control over by parrying, is not (again) the mark of a bad counter. There are fringe cases, very rare cases where this happens but it’s not nearly as much of a problem as you think, I believe.


    “I get that you can control the fight and 8 times out of 10 RNG will work in your favor but why would I do that when I can I just use other reliable mutants?“
    That’s your question to answer, if you don’t want to use Dani you absolutely don’t have to. I get why you’re asking it, but I think you’re reducing Dani to a Nick counter and only a Nick counter. That’s not something I blame you for as we’ve both mentioned how we don’t like her being marketed towards Nick and only Nick. You can have her in the deck as more of a general champ, miss counters aren’t on every champ, and then if she comes up for Nick, you know how to use her.

    I think the issue here is how much people were expecting from re-balancing. This was not the redesigning program - and I’m not drawing a distinction between you and me here, I actively suggested changes for Dani to help with Nick - the neuros activating on the first hit of the special was an idea I had and suggested and I’m glad they implemented it. I also suggested things that would help further against Nick, like if a champ prevented her miss on a well timed block she retained the falter, or was able to re trigger it. So you could parry Nick’s charges away.

    But I was always suggesting the with the knowledge that that’s a big change to add to a champ, and does fundamentally change how they work. That’s not, and never was, what the balancing program was for. They’re almost exclusively for tune ups, not new abilities. I’d have chosen to add more, and tune up more to Dani, but it’s not up to me. And it doesn’t make her bad just because she’s not perfect.


    How? I've used Mantis against Photon and it's the same rotation you use for any other champ. If you use Dani against Nick on the other hand and the charges start to get out of control you have to parry til he's at 0 cause if he goes above 5 it will slow you down, the higher he goes the worse it gets. Sure it's not a big deal since you can just parry like crazy but I hate when stuff like this depends mostly on luck even if that luck is tuned in your favor most of the time.

    Yes I absolutely won't use her, what I'm saying is we shouldn't be pretending like they did a good job with her cause even after the buff she's mid at best and not because she has bad damage or bad utility, she simply doesn't have anything in her kit that would make her better than the other 10-15 top mutant options in the game. Is she fun? Maybe, I'm not here to judge that cause it's subjective. Do I gain any advantages by using her instead of the other top champs in the mutant class? I don't think so. That's my thought process.
    Also, she's easily the second worst champ released last year (the mutant class has been the worst for a bit now so it's not like we even needed this). On top of that, there's a possibility this will change depending on how good Gladiator's buff is, I wouldn't be surprised if she ends up being the worst after he gets buffed.
    It would be great if all 2023 champions were great, but even if they are all great, someone always has to be in the bottom 2..
    This is the big point people are forgetting, the quality of 2023 is crazy. Look through them, every single one is meta relevant and a good pull for pretty much anyone. People leaving scathing comments saying “ugh, Dani is the WORST 2023 champ” is kinda funny, because even if I personally agreed, it means nothing. They’re all so good, that a champ who is the worst in 2023 could be in the top half in other years.

    Designers aren’t designing champs to be specifically anywhere in the top X of a year, that sounds like an awful design process. If Dani is the “worst” of 2023, ok? That still means she’s good enough to have value.
    Can you please tell me where you use Dani moonstar in the game. You told you were making showcase video for Dani.

    Is it still in queue or have you lost interest in Dani?
    I use her in battlegrounds depending on Metas.

    Also was that you commenting this sort of comment on my YT lol, this is starting to feel like a slight obsession with my opinion on Dani. Jumping on every comment I make in any thread about her, and now searching up old videos just to leave comments there too?
    So if you don't mind what is your opinion about Dani.

    You've seen and read and listened to my opinion multiple times, if you aren't sure, check my previous comments. I'm checking out of this conversation, because you're looking for a gotcha I don't want to engage in and I've said my piece.
  • Options
    BitterSteelBitterSteel Posts: 9,254 ★★★★★
    SirGamesBond said:


    Sup bitter, hope you are fine.

    I'll pass over all the mid comments there lol :D

    I'm good thanks though! Took a bit of a break from forum but poking my nose back in
  • Options
    ArmageddønArmageddøn Posts: 634 ★★★
    edited January 17
    SirGamesBond said:


    Midstar strikes again with her midness

    ☠️☠️
  • Options
    BeastDadBeastDad Posts: 1,419 ★★★★★
    WednesdayLength said:

    Drago_von_Drago said:

    Seems odd to claim she’s top 10, then ask for my list and not give your own to back it up but here’s an attempt.

    I think the easy ones in no particular order are

    Kitty
    Onslaught
    Archangel
    Apoc
    Red Mags
    Prof X
    Omega Red

    That’s 7

    I could also see any these rounding out the top 10 based on preferences.

    Colossus
    Sunspot
    Bishop
    Domino
    Toad
    Iceman
    Emma
    Storm
    White mags

    And that’s ignoring horseman gambit with his relic and horseman Wolverine to make it simpler.

    I can see some people putting Dani above some of them but I don’t think she’s solidly above the first 4 on this second list for me and that puts her at 12 at best for me and maybe not even there. I do admit I don’t have much experience with her so maybe I’m missing something.


    apocalypse absolutely doesn't deserve top 10
    This right here is next level blasphemy.
  • Options
    WednesdayLengthWednesdayLength Posts: 201 ★★
    SirGamesBond said:

    Don't be hating on bittersteel. Disagree when you disagree.

    Im never gonna bring Midstar over other champs.
    The fluidity and smoothness she shows while playing does not output the results you want for a genric fight.
    Middest of mid...
    MIDDD.
    Sup bitter, hope you are fine.

    You not wanting to use her doesn't make her mid lmao
  • Options
    WednesdayLengthWednesdayLength Posts: 201 ★★
    BeastDad said:

    WednesdayLength said:

    Drago_von_Drago said:

    Seems odd to claim she’s top 10, then ask for my list and not give your own to back it up but here’s an attempt.

    I think the easy ones in no particular order are

    Kitty
    Onslaught
    Archangel
    Apoc
    Red Mags
    Prof X
    Omega Red

    That’s 7

    I could also see any these rounding out the top 10 based on preferences.

    Colossus
    Sunspot
    Bishop
    Domino
    Toad
    Iceman
    Emma
    Storm
    White mags

    And that’s ignoring horseman gambit with his relic and horseman Wolverine to make it simpler.

    I can see some people putting Dani above some of them but I don’t think she’s solidly above the first 4 on this second list for me and that puts her at 12 at best for me and maybe not even there. I do admit I don’t have much experience with her so maybe I’m missing something.


    apocalypse absolutely doesn't deserve top 10
    This right here is next level blasphemy.
    It really isn't lmao. He's not useless but it requires a lot to actually get him working really well and there's so much that completely neuters his damage. I'm saying he's not an easy top 10 choice btw, not that he's not top 10 at all
  • Options
    007Bishop007Bishop Posts: 354 ★★★
    Harryatomix said:

    BitterSteel said:

    ItsClobberinTime said:

    WednesdayLength said:

    ItsClobberinTime said:

    GalactikDonut said:

    i believe the arrows applying at the start of specials does fix her match up against fury. before you’d apply the marked passive after the special so if the special killed his first life it wouldn’t do anything

    That's not the problem against Nick Fury, well not the main one at least. The main one is he can't miss if he has 5 charges, he shuts down Dani Moonstar completely the second he gets to 5.
    you can deal with him you just have to parry and mlm, it's not perfect but it's nowhere near impossible
    It's not impossible but in BGs it's: ton of block damage + very slow fight = lost round unless your opponent is terrible.
    I think you’re overstating it a bit. In my experience, you start the fight by doing MLM, parry. That has an expected tactical charge gain of -0.25 (each hit has a 25% chance, and the parry has -1 due to it being a well timed block). So if you MLM parry until Nick has just below a bar of power, you will very rarely have him on above 1 tactical charge. Of course it’s RNG, but it’s mitigated and swung in your favour. If he has extra, throw in an extra parry before you push him above. This stage of the fight is entirely in your control.

    In my experience, once you push him above a bar of power to get him to sp2, you only hit Nick fury around 15 times above a bar of power in order to get to your sp2. That’s an expected charge gain of 3-4 at 25% chance. And that’s assuming you don’t get any parries or re parries in, which are -1 per.

    So as long as you play it right, the odds are you control the fight. And if you play it right, it’s a 40 second fight

    Is she the best option? No, probably not. And that’s something I wish she hadn’t been marketed towards, the whole Nick fury counter dead means dead. To some people that means she won’t be useful, and that’s fine if you only want her for that.

    But tons of block damage? Not really, Nick doesn’t hit hard in first life, and you’re not taking that many hits on block with only a few parries, hits into phase, and the occasional reparry.

    Very slow fight? Only if you either play it wrong, and don’t control his charges, or if you get supremely unlucky, and I don’t mean a bit of bad luck, but if you do 15 hits and he gets 7+ charges from it (because if he gets 5-6 that’s easy enough to let drop off) then those are pretty gnarly odds. You’re looking at 40-60 second fights, which win a hell of a lot of BGs matches against a defender that usually has a dangerous second life that takes health from you.

    Dani also isn’t just a Nick counter. She’s a pretty strong nuke for general matches, I will preface with wanting a 5 or 6 star gambit relic, but over time those only become more and more common (literally, you can’t lose them). Needing a relic nowadays is not an excuse to write off how much damage a champ has. I definitely appreciate it can feel like needing two parts of a champ to use them, but relics are part of the game, and those who have both are happy, those who have one need the other piece. No different to a dupe.

    She’s the best Zemo counter in the game, who is a sneaky defender, she’s a fantastic skill option in general, and I think with 7*s we will see her become a little more useful than she is.

    Overall, I don’t think Dani is a top option, but there’s always a danger of saying “well she’s not top, so I’ll never use her”. It’s not either or, and you personally don’t have to use her for her to have value in the game.

    I’m a little disappointed she didn’t get more from the tune up, and it is an odd feeling to rely on miss for champs that counter it, but that doesn’t mean it has to swing all the way to the other end of the scale of “she’s terrible”. She has value to me, I have a 7* I’d love to dupe, and R2. For me, she’s fun, and that’s enough.
    First R2 her if you want to talk good about her, none is playing her in the game. She is just another native champ kabam wanted to mess up and they did it very well.
    Harryatomix said:

    BitterSteel said:

    ItsClobberinTime said:

    WednesdayLength said:

    ItsClobberinTime said:

    GalactikDonut said:

    i believe the arrows applying at the start of specials does fix her match up against fury. before you’d apply the marked passive after the special so if the special killed his first life it wouldn’t do anything

    That's not the problem against Nick Fury, well not the main one at least. The main one is he can't miss if he has 5 charges, he shuts down Dani Moonstar completely the second he gets to 5.
    you can deal with him you just have to parry and mlm, it's not perfect but it's nowhere near impossible
    It's not impossible but in BGs it's: ton of block damage + very slow fight = lost round unless your opponent is terrible.
    I think you’re overstating it a bit. In my experience, you start the fight by doing MLM, parry. That has an expected tactical charge gain of -0.25 (each hit has a 25% chance, and the parry has -1 due to it being a well timed block). So if you MLM parry until Nick has just below a bar of power, you will very rarely have him on above 1 tactical charge. Of course it’s RNG, but it’s mitigated and swung in your favour. If he has extra, throw in an extra parry before you push him above. This stage of the fight is entirely in your control.

    In my experience, once you push him above a bar of power to get him to sp2, you only hit Nick fury around 15 times above a bar of power in order to get to your sp2. That’s an expected charge gain of 3-4 at 25% chance. And that’s assuming you don’t get any parries or re parries in, which are -1 per.

    So as long as you play it right, the odds are you control the fight. And if you play it right, it’s a 40 second fight

    Is she the best option? No, probably not. And that’s something I wish she hadn’t been marketed towards, the whole Nick fury counter dead means dead. To some people that means she won’t be useful, and that’s fine if you only want her for that.

    But tons of block damage? Not really, Nick doesn’t hit hard in first life, and you’re not taking that many hits on block with only a few parries, hits into phase, and the occasional reparry.

    Very slow fight? Only if you either play it wrong, and don’t control his charges, or if you get supremely unlucky, and I don’t mean a bit of bad luck, but if you do 15 hits and he gets 7+ charges from it (because if he gets 5-6 that’s easy enough to let drop off) then those are pretty gnarly odds. You’re looking at 40-60 second fights, which win a hell of a lot of BGs matches against a defender that usually has a dangerous second life that takes health from you.

    Dani also isn’t just a Nick counter. She’s a pretty strong nuke for general matches, I will preface with wanting a 5 or 6 star gambit relic, but over time those only become more and more common (literally, you can’t lose them). Needing a relic nowadays is not an excuse to write off how much damage a champ has. I definitely appreciate it can feel like needing two parts of a champ to use them, but relics are part of the game, and those who have both are happy, those who have one need the other piece. No different to a dupe.

    She’s the best Zemo counter in the game, who is a sneaky defender, she’s a fantastic skill option in general, and I think with 7*s we will see her become a little more useful than she is.

    Overall, I don’t think Dani is a top option, but there’s always a danger of saying “well she’s not top, so I’ll never use her”. It’s not either or, and you personally don’t have to use her for her to have value in the game.

    I’m a little disappointed she didn’t get more from the tune up, and it is an odd feeling to rely on miss for champs that counter it, but that doesn’t mean it has to swing all the way to the other end of the scale of “she’s terrible”. She has value to me, I have a 7* I’d love to dupe, and R2. For me, she’s fun, and that’s enough.
    First R2 her if you want to talk good about her, none is playing her in the game. She is just another native champ kabam wanted to mess up and they did it very well.
    I have her at 6* r4 sig 200 and will also take up my 7* to r2 and maybe r3 once I finish exploring necro. She's great. Not being able to get the hang of a champ doesn't make them bad
  • Options
    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,249 ★★★★★
    007Bishop said:

    Harryatomix said:

    BitterSteel said:

    ItsClobberinTime said:

    WednesdayLength said:

    ItsClobberinTime said:

    GalactikDonut said:

    i believe the arrows applying at the start of specials does fix her match up against fury. before you’d apply the marked passive after the special so if the special killed his first life it wouldn’t do anything

    That's not the problem against Nick Fury, well not the main one at least. The main one is he can't miss if he has 5 charges, he shuts down Dani Moonstar completely the second he gets to 5.
    you can deal with him you just have to parry and mlm, it's not perfect but it's nowhere near impossible
    It's not impossible but in BGs it's: ton of block damage + very slow fight = lost round unless your opponent is terrible.
    I think you’re overstating it a bit. In my experience, you start the fight by doing MLM, parry. That has an expected tactical charge gain of -0.25 (each hit has a 25% chance, and the parry has -1 due to it being a well timed block). So if you MLM parry until Nick has just below a bar of power, you will very rarely have him on above 1 tactical charge. Of course it’s RNG, but it’s mitigated and swung in your favour. If he has extra, throw in an extra parry before you push him above. This stage of the fight is entirely in your control.

    In my experience, once you push him above a bar of power to get him to sp2, you only hit Nick fury around 15 times above a bar of power in order to get to your sp2. That’s an expected charge gain of 3-4 at 25% chance. And that’s assuming you don’t get any parries or re parries in, which are -1 per.

    So as long as you play it right, the odds are you control the fight. And if you play it right, it’s a 40 second fight

    Is she the best option? No, probably not. And that’s something I wish she hadn’t been marketed towards, the whole Nick fury counter dead means dead. To some people that means she won’t be useful, and that’s fine if you only want her for that.

    But tons of block damage? Not really, Nick doesn’t hit hard in first life, and you’re not taking that many hits on block with only a few parries, hits into phase, and the occasional reparry.

    Very slow fight? Only if you either play it wrong, and don’t control his charges, or if you get supremely unlucky, and I don’t mean a bit of bad luck, but if you do 15 hits and he gets 7+ charges from it (because if he gets 5-6 that’s easy enough to let drop off) then those are pretty gnarly odds. You’re looking at 40-60 second fights, which win a hell of a lot of BGs matches against a defender that usually has a dangerous second life that takes health from you.

    Dani also isn’t just a Nick counter. She’s a pretty strong nuke for general matches, I will preface with wanting a 5 or 6 star gambit relic, but over time those only become more and more common (literally, you can’t lose them). Needing a relic nowadays is not an excuse to write off how much damage a champ has. I definitely appreciate it can feel like needing two parts of a champ to use them, but relics are part of the game, and those who have both are happy, those who have one need the other piece. No different to a dupe.

    She’s the best Zemo counter in the game, who is a sneaky defender, she’s a fantastic skill option in general, and I think with 7*s we will see her become a little more useful than she is.

    Overall, I don’t think Dani is a top option, but there’s always a danger of saying “well she’s not top, so I’ll never use her”. It’s not either or, and you personally don’t have to use her for her to have value in the game.

    I’m a little disappointed she didn’t get more from the tune up, and it is an odd feeling to rely on miss for champs that counter it, but that doesn’t mean it has to swing all the way to the other end of the scale of “she’s terrible”. She has value to me, I have a 7* I’d love to dupe, and R2. For me, she’s fun, and that’s enough.
    First R2 her if you want to talk good about her, none is playing her in the game. She is just another native champ kabam wanted to mess up and they did it very well.
    Harryatomix said:

    BitterSteel said:

    ItsClobberinTime said:

    WednesdayLength said:

    ItsClobberinTime said:

    GalactikDonut said:

    i believe the arrows applying at the start of specials does fix her match up against fury. before you’d apply the marked passive after the special so if the special killed his first life it wouldn’t do anything

    That's not the problem against Nick Fury, well not the main one at least. The main one is he can't miss if he has 5 charges, he shuts down Dani Moonstar completely the second he gets to 5.
    you can deal with him you just have to parry and mlm, it's not perfect but it's nowhere near impossible
    It's not impossible but in BGs it's: ton of block damage + very slow fight = lost round unless your opponent is terrible.
    I think you’re overstating it a bit. In my experience, you start the fight by doing MLM, parry. That has an expected tactical charge gain of -0.25 (each hit has a 25% chance, and the parry has -1 due to it being a well timed block). So if you MLM parry until Nick has just below a bar of power, you will very rarely have him on above 1 tactical charge. Of course it’s RNG, but it’s mitigated and swung in your favour. If he has extra, throw in an extra parry before you push him above. This stage of the fight is entirely in your control.

    In my experience, once you push him above a bar of power to get him to sp2, you only hit Nick fury around 15 times above a bar of power in order to get to your sp2. That’s an expected charge gain of 3-4 at 25% chance. And that’s assuming you don’t get any parries or re parries in, which are -1 per.

    So as long as you play it right, the odds are you control the fight. And if you play it right, it’s a 40 second fight

    Is she the best option? No, probably not. And that’s something I wish she hadn’t been marketed towards, the whole Nick fury counter dead means dead. To some people that means she won’t be useful, and that’s fine if you only want her for that.

    But tons of block damage? Not really, Nick doesn’t hit hard in first life, and you’re not taking that many hits on block with only a few parries, hits into phase, and the occasional reparry.

    Very slow fight? Only if you either play it wrong, and don’t control his charges, or if you get supremely unlucky, and I don’t mean a bit of bad luck, but if you do 15 hits and he gets 7+ charges from it (because if he gets 5-6 that’s easy enough to let drop off) then those are pretty gnarly odds. You’re looking at 40-60 second fights, which win a hell of a lot of BGs matches against a defender that usually has a dangerous second life that takes health from you.

    Dani also isn’t just a Nick counter. She’s a pretty strong nuke for general matches, I will preface with wanting a 5 or 6 star gambit relic, but over time those only become more and more common (literally, you can’t lose them). Needing a relic nowadays is not an excuse to write off how much damage a champ has. I definitely appreciate it can feel like needing two parts of a champ to use them, but relics are part of the game, and those who have both are happy, those who have one need the other piece. No different to a dupe.

    She’s the best Zemo counter in the game, who is a sneaky defender, she’s a fantastic skill option in general, and I think with 7*s we will see her become a little more useful than she is.

    Overall, I don’t think Dani is a top option, but there’s always a danger of saying “well she’s not top, so I’ll never use her”. It’s not either or, and you personally don’t have to use her for her to have value in the game.

    I’m a little disappointed she didn’t get more from the tune up, and it is an odd feeling to rely on miss for champs that counter it, but that doesn’t mean it has to swing all the way to the other end of the scale of “she’s terrible”. She has value to me, I have a 7* I’d love to dupe, and R2. For me, she’s fun, and that’s enough.
    First R2 her if you want to talk good about her, none is playing her in the game. She is just another native champ kabam wanted to mess up and they did it very well.
    I have her at 6* r4 sig 200 and will also take up my 7* to r2 and maybe r3 once I finish exploring necro. She's great. Not being able to get the hang of a champ doesn't make them bad
    I used an Ascension on her. She's at R5. I agree. Once you get the flow, she's great.
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