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Should Champions who heal AFTER their SP still be able to heal if they kill the opponent?

Dirty_DozzDirty_Dozz Posts: 308 ★★★
in General Discussion
I don't think it affects many champions, only Morbius and Warlock come to mind actually (Diablo too, but his is harder because it's reliant on you letting him drink the potion), but if Warlock SP3 or Morbius SP2/3 kills the enemy, any healing they would've received just doesn't take place.

Has there ever been a reason given for this? I assume it because the enemy is dead so the fight is over, but especially in quests, sometimes that healing can be huge.

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    captain_rogerscaptain_rogers Posts: 3,987 ★★★★★
    edited January 17
    If the sp3 kills the opponent, the effects that trigger afterwards have no effect.

    So warlock won't heal i guess.

    Above rule is an exception for persistent effects like bishop's.
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    altavistaaltavista Posts: 1,291 ★★★★
    Also, the Adrenaline mechanic - if the first few hits of the special KO the opponent, the remaining hits do not regain any more health despite there appearing still be adrenaline left.

    But overall, it makes sense that once the fight is over it is over. Because otherwise, there will be a lot of weird interactions.
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    captain_rogerscaptain_rogers Posts: 3,987 ★★★★★
    SummonerNR said:

    Also Omega Red SP1 ?
    Each hit does its own regen. So if opponent killed very early in the SP1, I don’t believe the rest of his hits continue to increased Omega Reds health.

    At point of KO, rest of any animation is just show, but fight is already over.

    But interestingly, adrenaline heals even after the opponent dies, so if omega red kills the opponent on first hit of sp1, his other hits will still get adrenaline, like for every other champ.
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    captain_rogerscaptain_rogers Posts: 3,987 ★★★★★
    BitterSteel said:

    captain_rogers said:

    SummonerNR said:

    Also Omega Red SP1 ?
    Each hit does its own regen. So if opponent killed very early in the SP1, I don’t believe the rest of his hits continue to increased Omega Reds health.

    At point of KO, rest of any animation is just show, but fight is already over.

    But interestingly, adrenaline heals even after the opponent dies, so if omega red kills the opponent on first hit of sp1, his other hits will still get adrenaline, like for every other champ.
    Check the fight after, the adrenaline that you gained after the KO doesn’t get added. Same as the other regen mechanics
    You mean for bg calculations I suppose?
    For questing I believe the adrenaline health is added to the champ.
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    BitterSteelBitterSteel Posts: 9,254 ★★★★★
    captain_rogers said:

    BitterSteel said:

    captain_rogers said:

    SummonerNR said:

    Also Omega Red SP1 ?
    Each hit does its own regen. So if opponent killed very early in the SP1, I don’t believe the rest of his hits continue to increased Omega Reds health.

    At point of KO, rest of any animation is just show, but fight is already over.

    But interestingly, adrenaline heals even after the opponent dies, so if omega red kills the opponent on first hit of sp1, his other hits will still get adrenaline, like for every other champ.
    Check the fight after, the adrenaline that you gained after the KO doesn’t get added. Same as the other regen mechanics
    You mean for bg calculations I suppose?
    For questing I believe the adrenaline health is added to the champ.
    Last time I tested it, it didn’t. But happy to be proven wrong on that one
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    phillgreenphillgreen Posts: 3,689 ★★★★★
    It's a big deal for BWCV too.



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    AverageDesiAverageDesi Posts: 5,260 ★★★★★
    BitterSteel said:

    captain_rogers said:

    BitterSteel said:

    captain_rogers said:

    SummonerNR said:

    Also Omega Red SP1 ?
    Each hit does its own regen. So if opponent killed very early in the SP1, I don’t believe the rest of his hits continue to increased Omega Reds health.

    At point of KO, rest of any animation is just show, but fight is already over.

    But interestingly, adrenaline heals even after the opponent dies, so if omega red kills the opponent on first hit of sp1, his other hits will still get adrenaline, like for every other champ.
    Check the fight after, the adrenaline that you gained after the KO doesn’t get added. Same as the other regen mechanics
    You mean for bg calculations I suppose?
    For questing I believe the adrenaline health is added to the champ.
    Last time I tested it, it didn’t. But happy to be proven wrong on that one
    Visual bug. Doesn't actually heal
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    Josh2507Josh2507 Posts: 556 ★★★
    It would be nice, but this kind of thing would likely require a lot of work behind the scenes
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    DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 18,687 Guardian
    Dirty_Dozz said:

    I don't think it affects many champions, only Morbius and Warlock come to mind actually (Diablo too, but his is harder because it's reliant on you letting him drink the potion), but if Warlock SP3 or Morbius SP2/3 kills the enemy, any healing they would've received just doesn't take place.

    Has there ever been a reason given for this? I assume it because the enemy is dead so the fight is over, but especially in quests, sometimes that healing can be huge.

    The instant the defender dies, everything stops mechanically although the game might appear to still be doing things visually. This was actually a change made to the game long ago specifically to protect the player. Originally effects continued after the instant the defender died until the fight was completely over visually. The problem was that say you had a bleed on you and you were at low health, and so you tried to quickly kill the defender to end the fight. It was actually possible to kill the defender, then have another tick of bleed finish you off, and you could die *after* you killed the defender.

    To prevent that, the game was changed so that nothing happens after defender death, period (at least not in this context, there are some technical exceptions). This has some good and bad side effects, but I think overall it works to the players favor. It’s why if you kill the defender with a special (one or two) you don’t take recoil damage, for example. But it also means you can’t heal after the defender is dead, even if the effect is part of an action that has already been initiated.

    The OG example of heals not taking place if you kill the defender during the special was, I believe, Rogue SP1.
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    SquirrelguySquirrelguy Posts: 2,638 ★★★★★
    Another thing to consider along this line is things like Corvus and Herc's charges. If you kill the defender but fulfill one of the persistent charge cases a split second later (eg. Corvus knocking down a defender with a heavy/sp after getting evaded then KOing them on the first or even last hit of a heavy/sp before they fall down.

    I never thought about calculating this for Aegon, but if you KO the opponent with a sp 1, do you actually benefit from the added hits that you would get after they are out, but still taking some of the sp1's 5 hits?
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    AverageDesiAverageDesi Posts: 5,260 ★★★★★
    Squirrelguy said:

    Another thing to consider along this line is things like Corvus and Herc's charges. If you kill the defender but fulfill one of the persistent charge cases a split second later (eg. Corvus knocking down a defender with a heavy/sp after getting evaded then KOing them on the first or even last hit of a heavy/sp before they fall down.

    I never thought about calculating this for Aegon, but if you KO the opponent with a sp 1, do you actually benefit from the added hits that you would get after they are out, but still taking some of the sp1's 5 hits?

    Nope
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    SirGamesBondSirGamesBond Posts: 4,221 ★★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    Dirty_Dozz said:

    I don't think it affects many champions, only Morbius and Warlock come to mind actually (Diablo too, but his is harder because it's reliant on you letting him drink the potion), but if Warlock SP3 or Morbius SP2/3 kills the enemy, any healing they would've received just doesn't take place.

    Has there ever been a reason given for this? I assume it because the enemy is dead so the fight is over, but especially in quests, sometimes that healing can be huge.

    The instant the defender dies, everything stops mechanically although the game might appear to still be doing things visually. This was actually a change made to the game long ago specifically to protect the player. Originally effects continued after the instant the defender died until the fight was completely over visually. The problem was that say you had a bleed on you and you were at low health, and so you tried to quickly kill the defender to end the fight. It was actually possible to kill the defender, then have another tick of bleed finish you off, and you could die *after* you killed the defender.

    To prevent that, the game was changed so that nothing happens after defender death, period (at least not in this context, there are some technical exceptions). This has some good and bad side effects, but I think overall it works to the players favor. It’s why if you kill the defender with a special (one or two) you don’t take recoil damage, for example. But it also means you can’t heal after the defender is dead, even if the effect is part of an action that has already been initiated.

    The OG example of heals not taking place if you kill the defender during the special was, I believe, Rogue SP1.
    Double KO 😂
    It's fun on some other PvP games.
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    horrendous_toohorrendous_too Posts: 228 ★★
    DNA3000 said:

    Dirty_Dozz said:

    I don't think it affects many champions, only Morbius and Warlock come to mind actually (Diablo too, but his is harder because it's reliant on you letting him drink the potion), but if Warlock SP3 or Morbius SP2/3 kills the enemy, any healing they would've received just doesn't take place.

    Has there ever been a reason given for this? I assume it because the enemy is dead so the fight is over, but especially in quests, sometimes that healing can be huge.

    The instant the defender dies, everything stops mechanically although the game might appear to still be doing things visually. This was actually a change made to the game long ago specifically to protect the player. Originally effects continued after the instant the defender died until the fight was completely over visually. The problem was that say you had a bleed on you and you were at low health, and so you tried to quickly kill the defender to end the fight. It was actually possible to kill the defender, then have another tick of bleed finish you off, and you could die *after* you killed the defender.

    To prevent that, the game was changed so that nothing happens after defender death, period (at least not in this context, there are some technical exceptions). This has some good and bad side effects, but I think overall it works to the players favor. It’s why if you kill the defender with a special (one or two) you don’t take recoil damage, for example. But it also means you can’t heal after the defender is dead, even if the effect is part of an action that has already been initiated.

    The OG example of heals not taking place if you kill the defender during the special was, I believe, Rogue SP1.
    So is the Thor Rags heal synergy with Hela some different kind of thing then? Its been a while since I used it but as I recall you get a 10% heal when knocking out the defender. Which at least logically can't happen until after the knockout. I want to say there is another synergy somewhere that also works on knockout but I could be making that up.
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    DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 18,687 Guardian
    horrendous_too said:

    DNA3000 said:

    Dirty_Dozz said:

    I don't think it affects many champions, only Morbius and Warlock come to mind actually (Diablo too, but his is harder because it's reliant on you letting him drink the potion), but if Warlock SP3 or Morbius SP2/3 kills the enemy, any healing they would've received just doesn't take place.

    Has there ever been a reason given for this? I assume it because the enemy is dead so the fight is over, but especially in quests, sometimes that healing can be huge.

    The instant the defender dies, everything stops mechanically although the game might appear to still be doing things visually. This was actually a change made to the game long ago specifically to protect the player. Originally effects continued after the instant the defender died until the fight was completely over visually. The problem was that say you had a bleed on you and you were at low health, and so you tried to quickly kill the defender to end the fight. It was actually possible to kill the defender, then have another tick of bleed finish you off, and you could die *after* you killed the defender.

    To prevent that, the game was changed so that nothing happens after defender death, period (at least not in this context, there are some technical exceptions). This has some good and bad side effects, but I think overall it works to the players favor. It’s why if you kill the defender with a special (one or two) you don’t take recoil damage, for example. But it also means you can’t heal after the defender is dead, even if the effect is part of an action that has already been initiated.

    The OG example of heals not taking place if you kill the defender during the special was, I believe, Rogue SP1.
    So is the Thor Rags heal synergy with Hela some different kind of thing then? Its been a while since I used it but as I recall you get a 10% heal when knocking out the defender. Which at least logically can't happen until after the knockout. I want to say there is another synergy somewhere that also works on knockout but I could be making that up.
    Basically.

    Effects explicitly described as happening when you knock out the opponent are obvious exceptions to the rule. Sometimes these effects happen "in between" fights, and sometimes as in the case of the Thor Rag synergy with Hela they are programmed to happen after the game stops all other effects from happening at the end of combat.

    When I say that at the end of a fight when the defender is defeated "nothing happens" what I mean is that I believe on a technical level all active effects are removed and no ability can be triggered by either champion. This allows the fight to "wind down" normally without any thing happening to the player due to side effects of what was happening during the fight. However, this doesn't prevent the game itself from waving magic wands and making stuff happen that it is programmed to make happen. The Thor Ragnarok synergy with Hela would be one of those things.
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