Apple Now Requires Game Developers to disclose odds on "Loot Boxes" [MERGED THREADS]

Vdh2008 · 2017-12-21T16:58:46+00:00

Any comments on this?<br/><br/><a href="https://www.theverge.com/2017/12/21/16805674/apple-loot-box-app-store-games-odds-probability-disclosure" rel="nofollow">https://www.theverge.com/2017/12/21/16805674/apple-loot-box-app-store-games-odds-probability-disclosure</a><br/><br/>

Vdh2008

Any comments on this?

https://www.theverge.com/2017/12/21/16805674/apple-loot-box-app-store-games-odds-probability-disclosure

Comments

GroundedWisdom

New_Noob168 wrote: »

Honestly, the odds aren't right. The new champs that were recently added aren't the same odds as if someone were to get 1 antman or 1 falcon... I now people can get a voodoo or hyperion from those basic 5*, but the odds on gettting ronin, antman, falcon are far higher.

Actually, the more you narrow your focus, the more chance you have to be disappointed. If you're trying for say, 3 Champs, and there are 44 in the Crystal, that means there are 41 Champs you could roll that you don't want. This gets worse the more you narrow what you're going for, and the more rare the pull is. It's just a perception thing. We don't pull what we want, and we think it's a higher chance. Some people are happy with a Dup. Others take it as a sign that the odds are higher for some. Repeats are possible for RNG.

mespada

This isn't anything new. Most, if not all electronics are "designed for the dump." they work for 12-18 months then slow down when a new device comes out

X_Scott

I think it would be a really cool, stand up thing, if Kabam did it anyway, ahead of possibly being forced to. Good PR and all. Besides, casinos do it and they still make bank.

GroundedWisdom

Huge difference between a Casino and the game.

OnlyOneAboveAll

80% OF THE TOP 100 IN THE SUMMONER LEADERBOARD HAVE A 5 STAR AWAKENED BLADE IN THEIR PROLFILES. JUST SAYING..... I MANUALLY CHECKED AND LOOKED AT EVERY PROFILE.

BitterSteel

OnlyOneAboveAll wrote: »

80% OF THE TOP 100 IN THE SUMMONER LEADERBOARD HAVE A 5 STAR AWAKENED BLADE IN THEIR PROLFILES. JUST SAYING..... I MANUALLY CHECKED AND LOOKED AT EVERY PROFILE.

Ok what’s your point Mr. Capslock

loader187

The guy in our alliance that has the best champions is the guy that spends the most money. I have been getting better characters now that I spend more money. Coincidence. Hmmmmmm

Acanthus

loader187 wrote: »

The guy in our alliance that has the best champions is the guy that spends the most money. I have been getting better characters now that I spend more money. Coincidence. Hmmmmmm

It's almost like buying more crystals gets you more chance of getting better characters. Difficult to grasp, I know

Kpatrix

OnlyOneAboveAll wrote: »

80% OF THE TOP 100 IN THE SUMMONER LEADERBOARD HAVE A 5 STAR AWAKENED BLADE IN THEIR PROLFILES. JUST SAYING..... I MANUALLY CHECKED AND LOOKED AT EVERY PROFILE.

I can assure you those didn't come cheaply. Blade was one of the first 5*s available as a featured GMC, easily obtainable relatively speaking to other featured 5* before that. All it takes is money.

BCdiscman

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

The implications are that it is a form of Gambling, and it is not. Both legally and literally. What they're doing is creating a precedence by forcing the Apps they provide into a corner, before any legal standing has been found, and essentially saving their own behinds. However, the reality is they're using their power to set an example and no doubt appease their affiliates in certain areas of the world, for better terminology. I find it a diversion and quite hypocritical, given the fact that their own practices are in question at the moment, which I won't get into here. Not that they have been upstanding in my books to begin with. What it amounts to is using power to force the hand on smaller companies by way of obligation. It's an abusive move in my books. That's all I'm going to elaborate on because I have much stronger opinions on Apple, with validity, but I am afraid it will veer the discussion off. I'm just going to leave it at, I don't approve.

I understand that you like to argue just for the sake of arguing but you are deliberately missing the point. Apple is trying to get out in front on an issue that governments are increasing looking at to be able to say, hey no need to pass laws & or ban loot boxes. We are policing them ourself. You may not FEEL it is gambling but many governments do. Apple is simply trying to convince those governments not to outlaw loot boxes so that Apple does not lose the revenue they receive from them and companies like KABAM are not put out of business by the same loss (not that Apple cares about those companies further than the monies they get from them).

https://www.polygon.com/2017/11/22/16690182/battlefront-2-loot-crates-hawaii-belgium-banned-regulation-investigate

http://www.pcgamer.com/petition-forces-the-uk-government-to-weigh-in-on-loot-boxes-and-gambling-laws/

https://venturebeat.com/2017/11/27/game-industry-pros-take-first-step-toward-self-regulating-loot-boxes/

BCdiscman

Also in regards to KABAM just falsifying the numbers....

1st) I don't believe they would do so

But more importantly

2nd) I am sure Apple or China or any other government that makes laws requiring companies to provide the odds for loot boxes will also require those companies to provide them with proof (the raw coding or other means of verifying those numbers).

GroundedWisdom

OnlyOneAboveAll wrote: »

80% OF THE TOP 100 IN THE SUMMONER LEADERBOARD HAVE A 5 STAR AWAKENED BLADE IN THEIR PROLFILES. JUST SAYING..... I MANUALLY CHECKED AND LOOKED AT EVERY PROFILE.

You do realize those Allies have enough Shards to keep trying, right?

GroundedWisdom

BCdiscman wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

The implications are that it is a form of Gambling, and it is not. Both legally and literally. What they're doing is creating a precedence by forcing the Apps they provide into a corner, before any legal standing has been found, and essentially saving their own behinds. However, the reality is they're using their power to set an example and no doubt appease their affiliates in certain areas of the world, for better terminology. I find it a diversion and quite hypocritical, given the fact that their own practices are in question at the moment, which I won't get into here. Not that they have been upstanding in my books to begin with. What it amounts to is using power to force the hand on smaller companies by way of obligation. It's an abusive move in my books. That's all I'm going to elaborate on because I have much stronger opinions on Apple, with validity, but I am afraid it will veer the discussion off. I'm just going to leave it at, I don't approve.

I understand that you like to argue just for the sake of arguing but you are deliberately missing the point. Apple is trying to get out in front on an issue that governments are increasing looking at to be able to say, hey no need to pass laws & or ban loot boxes. We are policing them ourself. You may not FEEL it is gambling but many governments do. Apple is simply trying to convince those governments not to outlaw loot boxes so that Apple does not lose the revenue they receive from them and companies like KABAM are not put out of business by the same loss (not that Apple cares about those companies further than the monies they get from them).

https://www.polygon.com/2017/11/22/16690182/battlefront-2-loot-crates-hawaii-belgium-banned-regulation-investigate

http://www.pcgamer.com/petition-forces-the-uk-government-to-weigh-in-on-loot-boxes-and-gambling-laws/

https://venturebeat.com/2017/11/27/game-industry-pros-take-first-step-toward-self-regulating-loot-boxes/

I'm not talking about feelings, or opinions. I'm talking about literal and legal fact. It is not Gambling. As for Apple, I'm not discussing them. You would have a better chance at pulling a 5* Kang back-to-back than convincing me of their altruism. See what I did there?

DarkestDestroyer

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

Huge difference between a Casino and the game.

Well... that's just stating the obvious.

But if your putting money into a game to get crystals, your still gambling on getting a good champ.

Instead of hoping for number 15 on roulette, your hoping for a feature from a crystal.

GroundedWisdom

DarkestDestroyer wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

Huge difference between a Casino and the game.

Well... that's just stating the obvious.

But if your putting money into a game to get crystals, your still gambling on getting a good champ.

Instead of hoping for number 15 on roulette, your hoping for a feature from a crystal.

There's a difference between taking a "gamble" and actual Gambling. Gambling entails spending money for the possibility of money being payed out. There is no possibility of money being payed out with the game, or anything that belongs to us for that matter. Now, the grey area being discussed is with the literal definition "for money". However, that doesn't only apply to paying money into it. There has to be a return of some sort. Otherwise you're just paying to play a game of chance. It's an important distinction because no one owns or takes anything away from their Account. For all intensive purposes, the money is gone when we spend it, meaning it's not a returning investment. We're paying for permission to use their service.

Bahamut

They’ll lie. Lying seems to always work out for them IMO

Feeney234

Sooooooo then what's happening with this??

unknown

This content has been removed.

ThatGuy214

Only going to say this once you don’t buy most crystals with money you use units. This is a loophole for kabam so they will not have to disclose drop rates. Only offers you buy directly with cash like the daily deal these are the only odds the need to disclose

RagamugginGunner

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

DarkestDestroyer wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

Huge difference between a Casino and the game.

Well... that's just stating the obvious.

But if your putting money into a game to get crystals, your still gambling on getting a good champ.

Instead of hoping for number 15 on roulette, your hoping for a feature from a crystal.

There's a difference between taking a "gamble" and actual Gambling. Gambling entails spending money for the possibility of money being payed out. There is no possibility of money being payed out with the game, or anything that belongs to us for that matter. Now, the grey area being discussed is with the literal definition "for money". However, that doesn't only apply to paying money into it. There has to be a return of some sort. Otherwise you're just paying to play a game of chance. It's an important distinction because no one owns or takes anything away from their Account. For all intensive purposes, the money is gone when we spend it, meaning it's not a returning investment. We're paying for permission to use their service.

Wrong.

GroundedWisdom

CoquiFongo wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

DarkestDestroyer wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

Huge difference between a Casino and the game.

Well... that's just stating the obvious.

But if your putting money into a game to get crystals, your still gambling on getting a good champ.

Instead of hoping for number 15 on roulette, your hoping for a feature from a crystal.

There's a difference between taking a "gamble" and actual Gambling. Gambling entails spending money for the possibility of money being payed out. There is no possibility of money being payed out with the game, or anything that belongs to us for that matter. Now, the grey area being discussed is with the literal definition "for money". However, that doesn't only apply to paying money into it. There has to be a return of some sort. Otherwise you're just paying to play a game of chance. It's an important distinction because no one owns or takes anything away from their Account. For all intensive purposes, the money is gone when we spend it, meaning it's not a returning investment. We're paying for permission to use their service.

So you're debating your own perceived or interpreted definition of gambling, or to gamble; instead of the actual literal definition. How I mean how can you actually stand here and justify that ideal. It makes no sense.

To gamble is to play a game of chance for money or other stakes. The "other stakes" are what people are talking about. And you keep adding money as a payout or anything as a payout saying we do not own anything in the game since the all mighty Kabam does. None of that means anything when its boiled down to rolling the dice on a game of chance for an item.
I don't know what definition you are thinking of but a 2 minute Google search came up with 6 different sites stating about the same definition on each. So literally stop nit picking the definitions or words used and look at the meaning behind all of this.

Units to buy crystals what are the odds, shards to buy crystals what are the odds, champions to pop up in different crystals what are the odds. This is what people are talking about; your "war" on Apple is your own and you're the only one that keeps bringing it up.

The legal definition states that there must be monetary prospects. That's really the only definition that matters. Now, you can take the literal definition and twist and fit it to meet your opinion, but it is not Gambling. It is not legally, nor literally because you are literally receiving nothing back. You don't own your Account. You're rolling a Crystal that has a chance to award in-game Items that belong to Kabam. Not us. There is no payout or entitlement when the TOS clearly states that the game belongs to them. You can take a "gamble" for something in the Crystals, but it is not Gambling. Otherwise the Age of Majority would regulate who can play based on local legislation, and you would have some personal stake in what is awarded. Which it is not, and we don't.

DL864

This guy ^ right here will argue with a wall about the color of the sky. It doesn’t matter what anybody thinks weather it’s gambling or not if apple says you have to disclose odds guess what you want your game on there platform they will have to disclose odds. So we shall see in a few days

LeDee

The discussion in here is funny and interesting. I have my own theory.

First of all, they will never disclose anything to anyone that wasn't purchased with real dollars. The point about in game units vs actual dollars is relevant because Kabam isn't being required to tell you anything if you don't purchase anything. They need to sort thru the workaround, but I don't see this as difficult at all 0 they already have their solution with shards.

IMO all they do is give all game-won items as shards and not whole crystals. Purchased items will be crystals and not shards. And they may or may not admit that the two will have different drop rates. But they will have different drop rates.

Problem solved. And now to get more SA points, it will cost you real money.

GroundedWisdom

DL864 wrote: »

This guy ^ right here will argue with a wall about the color of the sky. It doesn’t matter what anybody thinks weather it’s gambling or not if apple says you have to disclose odds guess what you want your game on there platform they will have to disclose odds. So we shall see in a few days

Considering the fact that they cannot regulate listing the odds for in-game purchases, if they wanted to keep those odds private, there is a great deal they can do.

DL864

Oh I’m sorry I didn’t know you were an expert on what they could and could not regulate.

Riegel

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

BCdiscman wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

The implications are that it is a form of Gambling, and it is not. Both legally and literally. What they're doing is creating a precedence by forcing the Apps they provide into a corner, before any legal standing has been found, and essentially saving their own behinds. However, the reality is they're using their power to set an example and no doubt appease their affiliates in certain areas of the world, for better terminology. I find it a diversion and quite hypocritical, given the fact that their own practices are in question at the moment, which I won't get into here. Not that they have been upstanding in my books to begin with. What it amounts to is using power to force the hand on smaller companies by way of obligation. It's an abusive move in my books. That's all I'm going to elaborate on because I have much stronger opinions on Apple, with validity, but I am afraid it will veer the discussion off. I'm just going to leave it at, I don't approve.

I understand that you like to argue just for the sake of arguing but you are deliberately missing the point. Apple is trying to get out in front on an issue that governments are increasing looking at to be able to say, hey no need to pass laws & or ban loot boxes. We are policing them ourself. You may not FEEL it is gambling but many governments do. Apple is simply trying to convince those governments not to outlaw loot boxes so that Apple does not lose the revenue they receive from them and companies like KABAM are not put out of business by the same loss (not that Apple cares about those companies further than the monies they get from them).

https://www.polygon.com/2017/11/22/16690182/battlefront-2-loot-crates-hawaii-belgium-banned-regulation-investigate

http://www.pcgamer.com/petition-forces-the-uk-government-to-weigh-in-on-loot-boxes-and-gambling-laws/

https://venturebeat.com/2017/11/27/game-industry-pros-take-first-step-toward-self-regulating-loot-boxes/

I'm not talking about feelings, or opinions. I'm talking about literal and legal fact. It is not Gambling. As for Apple, I'm not discussing them. You would have a better chance at pulling a 5* Kang back-to-back than convincing me of their altruism. See what I did there? XD

Wrong

Riegel

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

DarkestDestroyer wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

Huge difference between a Casino and the game.

Well... that's just stating the obvious.

But if your putting money into a game to get crystals, your still gambling on getting a good champ.

Instead of hoping for number 15 on roulette, your hoping for a feature from a crystal.

There's a difference between taking a "gamble" and actual Gambling. Gambling entails spending money for the possibility of money being payed out. There is no possibility of money being payed out with the game, or anything that belongs to us for that matter. Now, the grey area being discussed is with the literal definition "for money". However, that doesn't only apply to paying money into it. There has to be a return of some sort. Otherwise you're just paying to play a game of chance. It's an important distinction because no one owns or takes anything away from their Account. For all intensive purposes, the money is gone when we spend it, meaning it's not a returning investment. We're paying for permission to use their service.

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

CoquiFongo wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

DarkestDestroyer wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

Huge difference between a Casino and the game.

Well... that's just stating the obvious.

But if your putting money into a game to get crystals, your still gambling on getting a good champ.

Instead of hoping for number 15 on roulette, your hoping for a feature from a crystal.

There's a difference between taking a "gamble" and actual Gambling. Gambling entails spending money for the possibility of money being payed out. There is no possibility of money being payed out with the game, or anything that belongs to us for that matter. Now, the grey area being discussed is with the literal definition "for money". However, that doesn't only apply to paying money into it. There has to be a return of some sort. Otherwise you're just paying to play a game of chance. It's an important distinction because no one owns or takes anything away from their Account. For all intensive purposes, the money is gone when we spend it, meaning it's not a returning investment. We're paying for permission to use their service.

So you're debating your own perceived or interpreted definition of gambling, or to gamble; instead of the actual literal definition. How I mean how can you actually stand here and justify that ideal. It makes no sense.

To gamble is to play a game of chance for money or other stakes. The "other stakes" are what people are talking about. And you keep adding money as a payout or anything as a payout saying we do not own anything in the game since the all mighty Kabam does. None of that means anything when its boiled down to rolling the dice on a game of chance for an item.
I don't know what definition you are thinking of but a 2 minute Google search came up with 6 different sites stating about the same definition on each. So literally stop nit picking the definitions or words used and look at the meaning behind all of this.

Units to buy crystals what are the odds, shards to buy crystals what are the odds, champions to pop up in different crystals what are the odds. This is what people are talking about; your "war" on Apple is your own and you're the only one that keeps bringing it up.

The legal definition states that there must be monetary prospects. That's really the only definition that matters. Now, you can take the literal definition and twist and fit it to meet your opinion, but it is not Gambling. It is not legally, nor literally because you are literally receiving nothing back. You don't own your Account. You're rolling a Crystal that has a chance to award in-game Items that belong to Kabam. Not us. There is no payout or entitlement when the TOS clearly states that the game belongs to them. You can take a "gamble" for something in the Crystals, but it is not Gambling. Otherwise the Age of Majority would regulate who can play based on local legislation, and you would have some personal stake in what is awarded. Which it is not, and we don't.

Wrong

Riegel

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

DarkestDestroyer wrote: »

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

Huge difference between a Casino and the game.

Well... that's just stating the obvious.

But if your putting money into a game to get crystals, your still gambling on getting a good champ.

Instead of hoping for number 15 on roulette, your hoping for a feature from a crystal.

There's a difference between taking a "gamble" and actual Gambling. Gambling entails spending money for the possibility of money being payed out. There is no possibility of money being payed out with the game, or anything that belongs to us for that matter. Now, the grey area being discussed is with the literal definition "for money". However, that doesn't only apply to paying money into it. There has to be a return of some sort. Otherwise you're just paying to play a game of chance. It's an important distinction because no one owns or takes anything away from their Account. For all intensive purposes, the money is gone when we spend it, meaning it's not a returning investment. We're paying for permission to use their service.

Wrong

Riegel

So much misinformation in one thread. Trust that Apple and Kabam know the real legal definitions. Soon we will know percentage drop rates, and it wont change anything in game so calm down.

Riegel

GroundedWisdom wrote: »

DL864 wrote: »

This guy ^ right here will argue with a wall about the color of the sky. It doesn’t matter what anybody thinks weather it’s gambling or not if apple says you have to disclose odds guess what you want your game on there platform they will have to disclose odds. So we shall see in a few days

Considering the fact that they cannot regulate listing the odds for in-game purchases, if they wanted to keep those odds private, there is a great deal they can do.

Wrong.

They could, Why do you think they couldn't?