Please Fix War Tanking!

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Comments

  • DNA3000DNA3000 Member, Guardian Posts: 19,427 Guardian
    John757 wrote: »
    Also “Article 33 in the fourth Convention says "no protected person may be punished for an offense he or she has not personally committed."”

    "Protected persons" in the context of Article 33 refer to people not directly a party to a conflict being held by one of the parties by virtue of controlling territory they happen to find themselves in. Article 33 would only apply to punishments Kabam tried to inflict on Clash of Clans players.
  • MaatManMaatMan Member Posts: 958 ★★★
    Siliyo wrote: »
    Drooped2 wrote: »
    Siliyo wrote: »
    Drooped2 wrote: »
    Siliyo wrote: »
    All freezing war ratings will do is punish alliances trying to move up during offseason

    I think the reward of punishing many alliances tanking is more helpful than “punishing” the few alliances trying to move up

    Theres way less tanking then allainces trying to move up.

    Tanking applies to what master and plat 1 2 3? All of.gold 1 and 2 is trying to move up. That alone is hundreds more allainces

    According to your logic, why bother preventing tanking if it affects a small percentage compared to the entire MCOC community?

    You still solve problems that effect a minority you just dont do it by punishing the majority.

    And how do you propose Kabam does that?

    its not so easy for anyone of us to sit here and find the solution as it is very complex.
    but kabam have teams of people who know the code behind the game who are supposed to do this.
    we can try and give suggestions but something like this requires a lot more than one persons shower thought to fix.
    it is much more complex.
    if it was easy we would already see the solution.

    TL:DR, just because we can see fault in a situation does not mean we know how to fix it. just because we dont know how to fix it does not mean we cans suggest it needs to be fixed
  • MaatManMaatMan Member Posts: 958 ★★★
    John757 wrote: »
    Drooped2 wrote: »
    Siliyo wrote: »
    Drooped2 wrote: »
    Siliyo wrote: »
    All freezing war ratings will do is punish alliances trying to move up during offseason

    I think the reward of punishing many alliances tanking is more helpful than “punishing” the few alliances trying to move up

    Theres way less tanking then allainces trying to move up.

    Tanking applies to what master and plat 1 2 3? All of.gold 1 and 2 is trying to move up. That alone is hundreds more allainces

    According to your logic, why bother preventing tanking if it affects a small percentage compared to the entire MCOC community?

    You still solve problems that effect a minority you just dont do it by punishing the majority.

    Punishing the majority for what the minority group does is collective punishment and is considered a war crime according to Article 87 in the third Geneva Convention.

    are we at war with kabam?
    are they a tyrant oppressing our basic human rights?

    I think not.
    you have total control over the situation.
    play or dont play.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Member Posts: 36,512 ★★★★★
    How did we get into The Geneva Convention? First of all, it's a game, one that people elect to play within the agreement of the Terms of Service. Secondly, when it comes to unfair treatment, if in some bizarre and absurd way you could apply it, it actually speaks to the opposite of the "right to screw people over".
    Anyhow, there are a few ideas I've had that could be implemented, but mainly they center around separating Seasons from Off-Season. As long as one can be used to manipulate the other, people will try to gain whatever advantage they can, whether fair or not. It's because of the very nature of competitiveness of it, that is the case. Now, we could debate the right to make advancements on the Off-Season, but I think the right to have a fair competition comes before that. The Allies who are encountering these people who tank literally have no control over it. They want to compete, so they enter Matchmaking, and are met with overpowered Matches because others have chosen to try and get easy Wins for momentum. It's the fact that one side has no control and the other elects to take advantage of the system that makes it something that needs drastic action. For the Allies trying to get ahead organically, this is incredibly unfair. It makes the whole point of fair competition moot.
    It really boils down to keeping Seasons progress separate. Now, this could be done cumulatively, as in picking up in the Rank you left off last Season and progress being saved at the end, or it could be done with a qualifying interim at the beginning of Seasons, where about a week or two before the Season starts you have Ranking Matches. It could also have another mechanism that Matches within Seasons, as opposed to War Rating carrying over from Off-Seasons. The bottom line on my side is, it needs to be separate. Otherwise, people will inevitably try to use any advantage they can.
  • John757John757 Member Posts: 1,086 ★★★
    MaatMan wrote: »
    John757 wrote: »
    Drooped2 wrote: »
    Siliyo wrote: »
    Drooped2 wrote: »
    Siliyo wrote: »
    All freezing war ratings will do is punish alliances trying to move up during offseason

    I think the reward of punishing many alliances tanking is more helpful than “punishing” the few alliances trying to move up

    Theres way less tanking then allainces trying to move up.

    Tanking applies to what master and plat 1 2 3? All of.gold 1 and 2 is trying to move up. That alone is hundreds more allainces

    According to your logic, why bother preventing tanking if it affects a small percentage compared to the entire MCOC community?

    You still solve problems that effect a minority you just dont do it by punishing the majority.

    Punishing the majority for what the minority group does is collective punishment and is considered a war crime according to Article 87 in the third Geneva Convention.

    are we at war with kabam?
    are they a tyrant oppressing our basic human rights?

    I think not.
    you have total control over the situation.
    play or dont play.

    Like I said before, we are prisoners in the contest trying to win our way out. Pay attention to the story.
  • StolenNameGuyStolenNameGuy Member Posts: 36
    Cranmer00 wrote: »
    The fix is Freezing AW ratings in Offseason. Tanking offseason FIXED.

    Agreed. An alliance's competitive ranking shouldn't be changing outside of competitive 'seasons'.
  • SiliyoSiliyo Member Posts: 1,459 ★★★★★

    MaatMan wrote: »
    John757 wrote: »
    Drooped2 wrote: »
    Siliyo wrote: »
    Drooped2 wrote: »
    Siliyo wrote: »
    All freezing war ratings will do is punish alliances trying to move up during offseason

    I think the reward of punishing many alliances tanking is more helpful than “punishing” the few alliances trying to move up

    Theres way less tanking then allainces trying to move up.

    Tanking applies to what master and plat 1 2 3? All of.gold 1 and 2 is trying to move up. That alone is hundreds more allainces

    According to your logic, why bother preventing tanking if it affects a small percentage compared to the entire MCOC community?

    You still solve problems that effect a minority you just dont do it by punishing the majority.

    Punishing the majority for what the minority group does is collective punishment and is considered a war crime according to Article 87 in the third Geneva Convention.

    are we at war with kabam?
    are they a tyrant oppressing our basic human rights?

    I think not.
    you have total control over the situation.
    play or dont play.

    I understand that, however, in a business meeting if you tell your executives “hey, we need to increase revenue this quarter” your executives would say “ok, how?” If you say “oh... I don’t know, we just need to...” that doesn’t help the situation at all. Kabam doesn’t have an answer yet, we don’t have an answer (or at least a consensus toward an answer) so it does not do anything productive on Kabam’s side. They want attainable actions and results
  • MaatManMaatMan Member Posts: 958 ★★★
    Siliyo wrote: »
    MaatMan wrote: »
    John757 wrote: »
    Drooped2 wrote: »
    Siliyo wrote: »
    Drooped2 wrote: »
    Siliyo wrote: »
    All freezing war ratings will do is punish alliances trying to move up during offseason

    I think the reward of punishing many alliances tanking is more helpful than “punishing” the few alliances trying to move up

    Theres way less tanking then allainces trying to move up.

    Tanking applies to what master and plat 1 2 3? All of.gold 1 and 2 is trying to move up. That alone is hundreds more allainces

    According to your logic, why bother preventing tanking if it affects a small percentage compared to the entire MCOC community?

    You still solve problems that effect a minority you just dont do it by punishing the majority.

    Punishing the majority for what the minority group does is collective punishment and is considered a war crime according to Article 87 in the third Geneva Convention.

    are we at war with kabam?
    are they a tyrant oppressing our basic human rights?

    I think not.
    you have total control over the situation.
    play or dont play.

    I understand that, however, in a business meeting if you tell your executives “hey, we need to increase revenue this quarter” your executives would say “ok, how?” If you say “oh... I don’t know, we just need to...” that doesn’t help the situation at all. Kabam doesn’t have an answer yet, we don’t have an answer (or at least a consensus toward an answer) so it does not do anything productive on Kabam’s side. They want attainable actions and results

    yes but your analagy is wrong.
    we are not in a buisness meeting with kabam. we do not work for or with kabam.

    we are the consumer.
    we are the ones that offer our opinions on their product / service.
    we can offer suggestions.
    and if we have a solution we can offer it.
    however it is up to kabam to be the ones to hear our feedback
    and make any adjustments to offer us the product that they feel best meets our needs and demands whilst sutill making sense from the company standpoint.
  • NeotwismNeotwism Member Posts: 1,803 ★★★★★
    I would like to have a sign up period for seasons. Alliances not wanting to take part in seasons can casually play other alliances and increase their war rating for new alliances. The team's taking part in seasons would have their rating froze Only if they have played the previous season and sign up for the next season.
  • SiliyoSiliyo Member Posts: 1,459 ★★★★★
    MaatMan wrote: »
    Siliyo wrote: »
    MaatMan wrote: »
    John757 wrote: »
    Drooped2 wrote: »
    Siliyo wrote: »
    Drooped2 wrote: »
    Siliyo wrote: »
    All freezing war ratings will do is punish alliances trying to move up during offseason

    I think the reward of punishing many alliances tanking is more helpful than “punishing” the few alliances trying to move up

    Theres way less tanking then allainces trying to move up.

    Tanking applies to what master and plat 1 2 3? All of.gold 1 and 2 is trying to move up. That alone is hundreds more allainces

    According to your logic, why bother preventing tanking if it affects a small percentage compared to the entire MCOC community?

    You still solve problems that effect a minority you just dont do it by punishing the majority.

    Punishing the majority for what the minority group does is collective punishment and is considered a war crime according to Article 87 in the third Geneva Convention.

    are we at war with kabam?
    are they a tyrant oppressing our basic human rights?

    I think not.
    you have total control over the situation.
    play or dont play.

    I understand that, however, in a business meeting if you tell your executives “hey, we need to increase revenue this quarter” your executives would say “ok, how?” If you say “oh... I don’t know, we just need to...” that doesn’t help the situation at all. Kabam doesn’t have an answer yet, we don’t have an answer (or at least a consensus toward an answer) so it does not do anything productive on Kabam’s side. They want attainable actions and results

    yes but your analagy is wrong.
    we are not in a buisness meeting with kabam. we do not work for or with kabam.

    we are the consumer.
    we are the ones that offer our opinions on their product / service.
    we can offer suggestions.
    and if we have a solution we can offer it.
    however it is up to kabam to be the ones to hear our feedback
    and make any adjustments to offer us the product that they feel best meets our needs and demands whilst sutill making sense from the company standpoint.

    Your understanding of my analogy is wrong. I did not imply we were at a business meeting with Kabam. I made the analogy to simply state what's the point of telling Kabam to fix something yet you yourself do not have an idea on how to fix it. The problem with Kabam is communication. There are companies that provide daily/weekly/biweekly updates on what has been on their mind, what they plan on doing, etc. Kabam does not do that, and the implied impression is that they do not care.

    If Kabam really wanted to do things right, they would include the player base in big decisions. I am not talking about inviting us to the BETA, although that is a step towards what I had mentioned, but what I am saying is them taking the approach of "Hey guys, we want to do something different with Alliance Wars, we have a couple of ideas, but we want to know what YOU want in the game" instead of deciding on their own accord what's best for us (because quite frankly, Kabam has been on a hit or miss streak with stuff lately)
  • belli300belli300 Member Posts: 704 ★★★
    If tanking is that big of an issue to you just stop playing in top tier aw it’s really that simple. Been at the top and the grind to stay current is literally a full time job. The only one who really benefit from high tier war are the youtubers using mcoc as a revenue source.
  • RagamugginGunnerRagamugginGunner Member Posts: 2,210 ★★★★★
    As long as there is an off season there's going to be tanking. There is no "fix" that will actually work to stop it so there's no point trying.

    Kabam's best move would be to cut seasons in half again to two weeks and eliminate the off season. That would allow allys to choose to sacrifice a season's worth of rewards if they want to tank or a break from AW. This would be great for people because the rewards wouldn't be soo huge that missing a season wouldn't be game changing and if you run into a tanking ally you get free season points along with the shards. Win win.
  • HulksmasshhHulksmasshh Member Posts: 742 ★★★
    Siliyo wrote: »
    MaatMan wrote: »
    Siliyo wrote: »
    MaatMan wrote: »
    John757 wrote: »
    Drooped2 wrote: »
    Siliyo wrote: »
    Drooped2 wrote: »
    Siliyo wrote: »
    All freezing war ratings will do is punish alliances trying to move up during offseason

    I think the reward of punishing many alliances tanking is more helpful than “punishing” the few alliances trying to move up

    Theres way less tanking then allainces trying to move up.

    Tanking applies to what master and plat 1 2 3? All of.gold 1 and 2 is trying to move up. That alone is hundreds more allainces

    According to your logic, why bother preventing tanking if it affects a small percentage compared to the entire MCOC community?

    You still solve problems that effect a minority you just dont do it by punishing the majority.

    Punishing the majority for what the minority group does is collective punishment and is considered a war crime according to Article 87 in the third Geneva Convention.

    are we at war with kabam?
    are they a tyrant oppressing our basic human rights?

    I think not.
    you have total control over the situation.
    play or dont play.

    I understand that, however, in a business meeting if you tell your executives “hey, we need to increase revenue this quarter” your executives would say “ok, how?” If you say “oh... I don’t know, we just need to...” that doesn’t help the situation at all. Kabam doesn’t have an answer yet, we don’t have an answer (or at least a consensus toward an answer) so it does not do anything productive on Kabam’s side. They want attainable actions and results

    yes but your analagy is wrong.
    we are not in a buisness meeting with kabam. we do not work for or with kabam.

    we are the consumer.
    we are the ones that offer our opinions on their product / service.
    we can offer suggestions.
    and if we have a solution we can offer it.
    however it is up to kabam to be the ones to hear our feedback
    and make any adjustments to offer us the product that they feel best meets our needs and demands whilst sutill making sense from the company standpoint.

    Your understanding of my analogy is wrong. I did not imply we were at a business meeting with Kabam. I made the analogy to simply state what's the point of telling Kabam to fix something yet you yourself do not have an idea on how to fix it. The problem with Kabam is communication. There are companies that provide daily/weekly/biweekly updates on what has been on their mind, what they plan on doing, etc. Kabam does not do that, and the implied impression is that they do not care.

    If Kabam really wanted to do things right, they would include the player base in big decisions. I am not talking about inviting us to the BETA, although that is a step towards what I had mentioned, but what I am saying is them taking the approach of "Hey guys, we want to do something different with Alliance Wars, we have a couple of ideas, but we want to know what YOU want in the game" instead of deciding on their own accord what's best for us (because quite frankly, Kabam has been on a hit or miss streak with stuff lately)

    We the players are not responsible for coming up with solutions. Sure many people can offer suggestions and feedback, but all the purpose of those suggestions are is to spark the devs into crafting their own solution they see best fit for the problem. Our feedback can identify and notify devs of problems which is very helpful but usually ends there.

    There’s a reason the most common complaints amongst ALL games is “devs need to listen to their players more”, it’s because the devs generally know a lot better than the players do. Sure sometimes they could listen MORE, but this game would’ve been dead long ago if they took and ran with every ‘popular’ idea the community comes up with.
  • SiliyoSiliyo Member Posts: 1,459 ★★★★★
    Siliyo wrote: »
    MaatMan wrote: »
    Siliyo wrote: »
    MaatMan wrote: »
    John757 wrote: »
    Drooped2 wrote: »
    Siliyo wrote: »
    Drooped2 wrote: »
    Siliyo wrote: »
    All freezing war ratings will do is punish alliances trying to move up during offseason

    I think the reward of punishing many alliances tanking is more helpful than “punishing” the few alliances trying to move up

    Theres way less tanking then allainces trying to move up.

    Tanking applies to what master and plat 1 2 3? All of.gold 1 and 2 is trying to move up. That alone is hundreds more allainces

    According to your logic, why bother preventing tanking if it affects a small percentage compared to the entire MCOC community?

    You still solve problems that effect a minority you just dont do it by punishing the majority.

    Punishing the majority for what the minority group does is collective punishment and is considered a war crime according to Article 87 in the third Geneva Convention.

    are we at war with kabam?
    are they a tyrant oppressing our basic human rights?

    I think not.
    you have total control over the situation.
    play or dont play.

    I understand that, however, in a business meeting if you tell your executives “hey, we need to increase revenue this quarter” your executives would say “ok, how?” If you say “oh... I don’t know, we just need to...” that doesn’t help the situation at all. Kabam doesn’t have an answer yet, we don’t have an answer (or at least a consensus toward an answer) so it does not do anything productive on Kabam’s side. They want attainable actions and results

    yes but your analagy is wrong.
    we are not in a buisness meeting with kabam. we do not work for or with kabam.

    we are the consumer.
    we are the ones that offer our opinions on their product / service.
    we can offer suggestions.
    and if we have a solution we can offer it.
    however it is up to kabam to be the ones to hear our feedback
    and make any adjustments to offer us the product that they feel best meets our needs and demands whilst sutill making sense from the company standpoint.

    Your understanding of my analogy is wrong. I did not imply we were at a business meeting with Kabam. I made the analogy to simply state what's the point of telling Kabam to fix something yet you yourself do not have an idea on how to fix it. The problem with Kabam is communication. There are companies that provide daily/weekly/biweekly updates on what has been on their mind, what they plan on doing, etc. Kabam does not do that, and the implied impression is that they do not care.

    If Kabam really wanted to do things right, they would include the player base in big decisions. I am not talking about inviting us to the BETA, although that is a step towards what I had mentioned, but what I am saying is them taking the approach of "Hey guys, we want to do something different with Alliance Wars, we have a couple of ideas, but we want to know what YOU want in the game" instead of deciding on their own accord what's best for us (because quite frankly, Kabam has been on a hit or miss streak with stuff lately)

    We the players are not responsible for coming up with solutions. Sure many people can offer suggestions and feedback, but all the purpose of those suggestions are is to spark the devs into crafting their own solution they see best fit for the problem. Our feedback can identify and notify devs of problems which is very helpful but usually ends there.

    There’s a reason the most common complaints amongst ALL games is “devs need to listen to their players more”, it’s because the devs generally know a lot better than the players do. Sure sometimes they could listen MORE, but this game would’ve been dead long ago if they took and ran with every ‘popular’ idea the community comes up with.

    So you're saying the players who play MCOC many times more than the devs, do NOT know a lot better than the devs do? Oh please. And what "popular idea" from the community would kill the game? (aside from RDT)
  • IsItthoughIsItthough Member Posts: 254 ★★
    I stand by splitting season rewards up into wins and losses based on tiers and removal of seasons. Every war has a good chance to produce for anyone on any giving day. 7 Pages of good suggestions, and some random robotic talk and I still think the old system was way more fun and interactive.

    As a side note, is tanking during a season frowned on. If the last three wars of a season you are locked in a plat regardless if you win or lose, and just skip paths and get the boss kill to maintain current spot while saving items and units. Is that unethical or just smart game play?
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Member Posts: 36,512 ★★★★★
    As long as there is an off season there's going to be tanking. There is no "fix" that will actually work to stop it so there's no point trying.

    Kabam's best move would be to cut seasons in half again to two weeks and eliminate the off season. That would allow allys to choose to sacrifice a season's worth of rewards if they want to tank or a break from AW. This would be great for people because the rewards wouldn't be soo huge that missing a season wouldn't be game changing and if you run into a tanking ally you get free season points along with the shards. Win win.

    I would agree with eliminating Off-Season and having a break, but I don't think 2 weeks is long enough for a Season. The trouble with that is the Rewards would have to be cut as well. Seasons have already been reduced quite a bit, and there's really only so much you can water it down before it's no longer the competition it is.
  • themikithemiki Member Posts: 60
    Well if everyone tanks, they’ll get matched with the team that also tanked during season. They won’t always get better matchups.
  • DTMelodicMetalDTMelodicMetal Member Posts: 2,785 ★★★★★
    There’s a reason the most common complaints amongst ALL games is “devs need to listen to their players more”, it’s because the devs generally know a lot better than the players do. Sure sometimes they could listen MORE, but this game would’ve been dead long ago if they took and ran with every ‘popular’ idea the community comes up with.

    Dilly dilly!
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Member, Guardian Posts: 19,427 Guardian
    Cranmer00 wrote: »
    The fix is Freezing AW ratings in Offseason. Tanking offseason FIXED.

    Agreed. An alliance's competitive ranking shouldn't be changing outside of competitive 'seasons'.

    All wars are competitions. Whether both sides choose to fight as hard in every war is completely separate.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Member, Guardian Posts: 19,427 Guardian
    There’s a reason the most common complaints amongst ALL games is “devs need to listen to their players more”, it’s because the devs generally know a lot better than the players do. Sure sometimes they could listen MORE, but this game would’ve been dead long ago if they took and ran with every ‘popular’ idea the community comes up with.

    That's true to an extent, but it is not even the most important factor. The most important factor is that all players seem to think there's far wider consensus than there actually is. I've had first hand experience with this, where I see the feedback from the developers' perspective and not the players' perspective. Most consensus is illusory. Sometimes this is because players live in an echo chamber of like minded people. But sometimes this is because players see superficial consensus and deliberately don't want to explore or emphasize the points of disagreement.

    Players often see the situation as the players vs the developers, and if any sort of agreement arises they want to emphasize that agreement to promote a unified front "against" the developers. But just under the surface that unity breaks down. Consider the "unified" protests against 12.0 where a lot of players agreed there were problems but once you got past that, there wasn't *any* agreement on what the specific problems were or what the best way to resolve them is. Same thing was true when the developers began mucking with Alliance War in 14.0. It is easy for a group of people to agree that someone else is wrong, but it isn't easy for all of them to agree on what would be right.

    The problem isn't that developers don't listen to the players. It is that the players generally don't listen to the players, and when they ask the developers to listen to the players they have absolutely no idea what that actually means. When they ask the developers to listen to "the players" they actually have one very specific player in mind.

    Completely separately, where knowledge and experience comes into play is that players with no actual game development experience think they can just guess at it. Actually, on the internet that's generally true about everything. But most times those guesses are so awful, so ridiculously off base, so incredibly naive, that the only reasonable thing to do is to ignore them completely. In every game I've played where I've participated on the forums, there have always been people who think or imply the content of the game is "programmed." That's an eye-roller right there. Anyone who says "why can't the developers just reprogram this champion to behave in this completely different way from all other champions" for example. Because that's impossible? Good luck trying to explain that to some people. Same thing goes for people who think Kabam can just spend more money on "servers" and everything will be magically faster and better. These people will obstinately stick to their guns, or waffle a "that's not the point" excuse, but again: the only reasonable thing to do is to simply ignore such feedback.

    The proper thing to do, when you don't actually know, is not to guess. It is to provide feedback at the level appropriate to your knowledge level. A lot of players, and especially the most vocal, hate doing that. They hate simply expressing their subjective feedback without trying to inject a lot of extra made-up knowledge, and it turns their feedback into gibberish the devs are compelled to ignore. The sad part is: you can try to tell people not to do it, but the people most likely to do it are also most likely to ignore that feedback, which locks them into perpetually being ignored.
  • CoatHang3rCoatHang3r Member Posts: 4,965 ★★★★★
    Adjusting the off season (no WR change, elimination of War change during) does not stop WR manipulation, it makes shell swaping a requirement of manipulation giving additional advantage to those who use that method and have thiers alliwnces set up to do that.

    It does however mean you’ll get a real war in during the off season. If a real war is the goal without WR adjustments maybe it would be possible to have off season wars with two options.

    One option would be ranked and the other called something like skirmish. The skirmish would award everything current off season wars do excluding a change in WR for the match. This would leave ranked matches to those who wish to improve their ranking but good luck finding a match where someone isn’t manipulating thier rating.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Member, Guardian Posts: 19,427 Guardian
    IsItthough wrote: »
    As a side note, is tanking during a season frowned on. If the last three wars of a season you are locked in a plat regardless if you win or lose, and just skip paths and get the boss kill to maintain current spot while saving items and units. Is that unethical or just smart game play?

    It isn't tanking. "Tanking" usually refers to the practice of deliberately losing, because losing somehow provides some long term strategic advantage. For example, losing during the offseason to lower rating so that future opponents are weaker, hoping the increased points scored against those opponents makes up for any deficit due to ratings loss.

    Deciding not to fight at full speed because you're at a point in the bracket where wins can no longer help and losses can no longer hurt isn't tanking, because you aren't deliberately trying to lose. You're simply playing at less than maximum effort because you no longer care if you win or lose.

    Of course, it can be very difficult to tell the difference from the outside, because this is primarily a difference of intent rather than action. But strictly speaking, choosing to stop spending on the last war or two because you don't need to win to preserve bracket isn't generally considered tanking. You'd still probably place the best possible defense, and you'd probably still try to play as best you could within reason. But you might also choose to use it as a practice opportunity, letting players who normally don't attack certain nodes have a shot at it to get better. That could cause your attack bonus to plummet, but that's entirely reasonable and entirely not anti-competitive on its own.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Member, Guardian Posts: 19,427 Guardian
    CoatHang3r wrote: »
    One option would be ranked and the other called something like skirmish. The skirmish would award everything current off season wars do excluding a change in WR for the match. This would leave ranked matches to those who wish to improve their ranking but good luck finding a match where someone isn’t manipulating thier rating.

    I'm not sure that addresses the problem in question, because any alliance that wanted to manipulate rating would deliberately choose rated wars, because the intent is to lose and drop rating.

    I still think using win/loss record to select opponents does a lot more to mitigate the effects of war rating manipulation. Record matching seems to wipe out the advantages of ratings manipulation fairly quickly, and at the very top where manipulation has the greatest effect it seems to reduce the advantage to almost nothing.
  • IsItthoughIsItthough Member Posts: 254 ★★
    @DNA3000 By choosing to skip paths in War you are in better terms throwing in the towel. The point system makes sure of that. While there is a chance to still win, it is not the intention, therefor you are tanking during the season. You know you can't progress do to the reward structure so you can set yourself up for a better start next season by not going for wins.
  • JayZeusJayZeus Member Posts: 1
    How about anyone ranked plat 3 or gold 1 and above has their war rating locked during the offseason. This way new alliances don’t get impacted by war rating locked, up and coming alliances have a chance to get their rating up. Also someone said they only like to war during the offseason for fun so this way I believe they can still have their fun without taking a heavy L.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Member, Guardian Posts: 19,427 Guardian
    IsItthough wrote: »
    @DNA3000 By choosing to skip paths in War you are in better terms throwing in the towel. The point system makes sure of that. While there is a chance to still win, it is not the intention, therefor you are tanking during the season. You know you can't progress do to the reward structure so you can set yourself up for a better start next season by not going for wins.

    That's your opinion. But you can't force an alliance to fight at any particular strength, so if they choose to not spend, and then they choose because they don't spend to divert a player to a mandatory path and off an optional one, you can't accuse them of deliberately trying to lose, especially when in the literal sense they aren't trying to lose. They are just not trying as hard to win. There's a fundamental difference between deliberately trying to lose and just not trying hard to win. You can call not trying hard enough "tanking" but then everyone tanks. I'd bet real money your alliance doesn't try as hard as humanly possible to win every war.
  • SiliyoSiliyo Member Posts: 1,459 ★★★★★
    Siliyo wrote: »
    MaatMan wrote: »
    Siliyo wrote: »
    MaatMan wrote: »
    John757 wrote: »
    Drooped2 wrote: »
    Siliyo wrote: »
    Drooped2 wrote: »
    Siliyo wrote: »
    All freezing war ratings will do is punish alliances trying to move up during offseason

    I think the reward of punishing many alliances tanking is more helpful than “punishing” the few alliances trying to move up

    Theres way less tanking then allainces trying to move up.

    Tanking applies to what master and plat 1 2 3? All of.gold 1 and 2 is trying to move up. That alone is hundreds more allainces

    According to your logic, why bother preventing tanking if it affects a small percentage compared to the entire MCOC community?

    You still solve problems that effect a minority you just dont do it by punishing the majority.

    Punishing the majority for what the minority group does is collective punishment and is considered a war crime according to Article 87 in the third Geneva Convention.

    are we at war with kabam?
    are they a tyrant oppressing our basic human rights?

    I think not.
    you have total control over the situation.
    play or dont play.

    I understand that, however, in a business meeting if you tell your executives “hey, we need to increase revenue this quarter” your executives would say “ok, how?” If you say “oh... I don’t know, we just need to...” that doesn’t help the situation at all. Kabam doesn’t have an answer yet, we don’t have an answer (or at least a consensus toward an answer) so it does not do anything productive on Kabam’s side. They want attainable actions and results

    yes but your analagy is wrong.
    we are not in a buisness meeting with kabam. we do not work for or with kabam.

    we are the consumer.
    we are the ones that offer our opinions on their product / service.
    we can offer suggestions.
    and if we have a solution we can offer it.
    however it is up to kabam to be the ones to hear our feedback
    and make any adjustments to offer us the product that they feel best meets our needs and demands whilst sutill making sense from the company standpoint.

    Your understanding of my analogy is wrong. I did not imply we were at a business meeting with Kabam. I made the analogy to simply state what's the point of telling Kabam to fix something yet you yourself do not have an idea on how to fix it. The problem with Kabam is communication. There are companies that provide daily/weekly/biweekly updates on what has been on their mind, what they plan on doing, etc. Kabam does not do that, and the implied impression is that they do not care.

    If Kabam really wanted to do things right, they would include the player base in big decisions. I am not talking about inviting us to the BETA, although that is a step towards what I had mentioned, but what I am saying is them taking the approach of "Hey guys, we want to do something different with Alliance Wars, we have a couple of ideas, but we want to know what YOU want in the game" instead of deciding on their own accord what's best for us (because quite frankly, Kabam has been on a hit or miss streak with stuff lately)

    We the players are not responsible for coming up with solutions. Sure many people can offer suggestions and feedback, but all the purpose of those suggestions are is to spark the devs into crafting their own solution they see best fit for the problem. Our feedback can identify and notify devs of problems which is very helpful but usually ends there.

    There’s a reason the most common complaints amongst ALL games is “devs need to listen to their players more”, it’s because the devs generally know a lot better than the players do. Sure sometimes they could listen MORE, but this game would’ve been dead long ago if they took and ran with every ‘popular’ idea the community comes up with.

    I do not agree that devs generally know a lot better than the players do, since the Summoners play MCOC a lot more. I am curious to know what "popular" idea from the community would kill the game aside from RDTs?
  • WorknprogressWorknprogress Member Posts: 7,233 ★★★★★
    Siliyo wrote: »
    Siliyo wrote: »
    MaatMan wrote: »
    Siliyo wrote: »
    MaatMan wrote: »
    John757 wrote: »
    Drooped2 wrote: »
    Siliyo wrote: »
    Drooped2 wrote: »
    Siliyo wrote: »
    All freezing war ratings will do is punish alliances trying to move up during offseason

    I think the reward of punishing many alliances tanking is more helpful than “punishing” the few alliances trying to move up

    Theres way less tanking then allainces trying to move up.

    Tanking applies to what master and plat 1 2 3? All of.gold 1 and 2 is trying to move up. That alone is hundreds more allainces

    According to your logic, why bother preventing tanking if it affects a small percentage compared to the entire MCOC community?

    You still solve problems that effect a minority you just dont do it by punishing the majority.

    Punishing the majority for what the minority group does is collective punishment and is considered a war crime according to Article 87 in the third Geneva Convention.

    are we at war with kabam?
    are they a tyrant oppressing our basic human rights?

    I think not.
    you have total control over the situation.
    play or dont play.

    I understand that, however, in a business meeting if you tell your executives “hey, we need to increase revenue this quarter” your executives would say “ok, how?” If you say “oh... I don’t know, we just need to...” that doesn’t help the situation at all. Kabam doesn’t have an answer yet, we don’t have an answer (or at least a consensus toward an answer) so it does not do anything productive on Kabam’s side. They want attainable actions and results

    yes but your analagy is wrong.
    we are not in a buisness meeting with kabam. we do not work for or with kabam.

    we are the consumer.
    we are the ones that offer our opinions on their product / service.
    we can offer suggestions.
    and if we have a solution we can offer it.
    however it is up to kabam to be the ones to hear our feedback
    and make any adjustments to offer us the product that they feel best meets our needs and demands whilst sutill making sense from the company standpoint.

    Your understanding of my analogy is wrong. I did not imply we were at a business meeting with Kabam. I made the analogy to simply state what's the point of telling Kabam to fix something yet you yourself do not have an idea on how to fix it. The problem with Kabam is communication. There are companies that provide daily/weekly/biweekly updates on what has been on their mind, what they plan on doing, etc. Kabam does not do that, and the implied impression is that they do not care.

    If Kabam really wanted to do things right, they would include the player base in big decisions. I am not talking about inviting us to the BETA, although that is a step towards what I had mentioned, but what I am saying is them taking the approach of "Hey guys, we want to do something different with Alliance Wars, we have a couple of ideas, but we want to know what YOU want in the game" instead of deciding on their own accord what's best for us (because quite frankly, Kabam has been on a hit or miss streak with stuff lately)

    We the players are not responsible for coming up with solutions. Sure many people can offer suggestions and feedback, but all the purpose of those suggestions are is to spark the devs into crafting their own solution they see best fit for the problem. Our feedback can identify and notify devs of problems which is very helpful but usually ends there.

    There’s a reason the most common complaints amongst ALL games is “devs need to listen to their players more”, it’s because the devs generally know a lot better than the players do. Sure sometimes they could listen MORE, but this game would’ve been dead long ago if they took and ran with every ‘popular’ idea the community comes up with.

    I do not agree that devs generally know a lot better than the players do, since the Summoners play MCOC a lot more. I am curious to know what "popular" idea from the community would kill the game aside from RDTs?

    Trading champs/cats, class specific crystals, God tier crystals, 1 million shards for completing a daily quest for zero energy, multiplying eq/war rewards by 10, AQ energy timers reduced/capacity raised to a million, etc...

    Granted a lot of that is hyperbole but you get the gist. This place is littered with terrible short sighted ideas
  • MaatManMaatMan Member Posts: 958 ★★★
    IsItthough wrote: »
    @DNA3000 By choosing to skip paths in War you are in better terms throwing in the towel. The point system makes sure of that. While there is a chance to still win, it is not the intention, therefor you are tanking during the season. You know you can't progress do to the reward structure so you can set yourself up for a better start next season by not going for wins.

    this is exactly like a top tier sporting team benching it star players and giving the rookies a go.
    as there is no concern over a win or loss.
    still give it all a red hot go but just not as much pressure.

    its like why spend units and use resources when a win or loss makes no difference to season standing?
    at t6 it is harder to do that as 3 Win or Losses are all the flex in the bracket. we cant lose to many otherwise we may drop to t7.
  • MaatManMaatMan Member Posts: 958 ★★★
    Siliyo wrote: »
    Siliyo wrote: »
    MaatMan wrote: »
    Siliyo wrote: »
    MaatMan wrote: »
    John757 wrote: »
    Drooped2 wrote: »
    Siliyo wrote: »
    Drooped2 wrote: »
    Siliyo wrote: »
    All freezing war ratings will do is punish alliances trying to move up during offseason

    I think the reward of punishing many alliances tanking is more helpful than “punishing” the few alliances trying to move up

    Theres way less tanking then allainces trying to move up.

    Tanking applies to what master and plat 1 2 3? All of.gold 1 and 2 is trying to move up. That alone is hundreds more allainces

    According to your logic, why bother preventing tanking if it affects a small percentage compared to the entire MCOC community?

    You still solve problems that effect a minority you just dont do it by punishing the majority.

    Punishing the majority for what the minority group does is collective punishment and is considered a war crime according to Article 87 in the third Geneva Convention.

    are we at war with kabam?
    are they a tyrant oppressing our basic human rights?

    I think not.
    you have total control over the situation.
    play or dont play.

    I understand that, however, in a business meeting if you tell your executives “hey, we need to increase revenue this quarter” your executives would say “ok, how?” If you say “oh... I don’t know, we just need to...” that doesn’t help the situation at all. Kabam doesn’t have an answer yet, we don’t have an answer (or at least a consensus toward an answer) so it does not do anything productive on Kabam’s side. They want attainable actions and results

    yes but your analagy is wrong.
    we are not in a buisness meeting with kabam. we do not work for or with kabam.

    we are the consumer.
    we are the ones that offer our opinions on their product / service.
    we can offer suggestions.
    and if we have a solution we can offer it.
    however it is up to kabam to be the ones to hear our feedback
    and make any adjustments to offer us the product that they feel best meets our needs and demands whilst sutill making sense from the company standpoint.

    Your understanding of my analogy is wrong. I did not imply we were at a business meeting with Kabam. I made the analogy to simply state what's the point of telling Kabam to fix something yet you yourself do not have an idea on how to fix it. The problem with Kabam is communication. There are companies that provide daily/weekly/biweekly updates on what has been on their mind, what they plan on doing, etc. Kabam does not do that, and the implied impression is that they do not care.

    If Kabam really wanted to do things right, they would include the player base in big decisions. I am not talking about inviting us to the BETA, although that is a step towards what I had mentioned, but what I am saying is them taking the approach of "Hey guys, we want to do something different with Alliance Wars, we have a couple of ideas, but we want to know what YOU want in the game" instead of deciding on their own accord what's best for us (because quite frankly, Kabam has been on a hit or miss streak with stuff lately)

    We the players are not responsible for coming up with solutions. Sure many people can offer suggestions and feedback, but all the purpose of those suggestions are is to spark the devs into crafting their own solution they see best fit for the problem. Our feedback can identify and notify devs of problems which is very helpful but usually ends there.

    There’s a reason the most common complaints amongst ALL games is “devs need to listen to their players more”, it’s because the devs generally know a lot better than the players do. Sure sometimes they could listen MORE, but this game would’ve been dead long ago if they took and ran with every ‘popular’ idea the community comes up with.

    I do not agree that devs generally know a lot better than the players do, since the Summoners play MCOC a lot more. I am curious to know what "popular" idea from the community would kill the game aside from RDTs?

    as far as coding and game balance goes they do.as they actually know the code behind the game. they know the code that runs the game.

    and whilst there are some player that know alot.
    just look around at the all the stupid questions and suggestions you see from players who know nothing bout anything and would destroy game balance if they had their suggestions made reality.
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