AI response to user inputs altered

SatsuiNoHadou · April 2019

Kabam Miike said:
I'm not sure, but I'll ask about it. From the sounds of this, it was a very obvious bug if you could freeze the AI in one spot. That would not have been an intentional mechanic.

Clearly another example of Kabam’s detachment from the community when their
community managers have no idea what the night crawler switch mechanic is about

Lormif · April 2019

Akumaccb said:

Kabam Miike said:
I'm not sure, but I'll ask about it. From the sounds of this, it was a very obvious bug if you could freeze the AI in one spot. That would not have been an intentional mechanic.
Clearly another example of Kabam’s detachment from the community when their
community managers have no idea what the night crawler switch mechanic is about

This was not unique to NC, it was just used to bypass NCs special abilities.

Brainimpacter · April 2019

quote from the thread you closed, if its not intentional why has it been that way for 3 years and never spoke about as a bug, but a way to make NC switch, its only going to bother guys in your office now because people worked out that it can be used on other champs to make them block in end game content on nodes like block penetration which Corvus destroys

Kabam Miike said:
No, I understand what you mean, but you are still able to make the AI stop in spot and block for no reason when they are in no danger of being hit. I am still not sure if this was an intentional fix or not, but I don't think that interaction was ever intentional.

Let's keep these conversations in one thread.

Brainimpacter · April 2019

Lormif said:

Akumaccb said:

Kabam Miike said:
I'm not sure, but I'll ask about it. From the sounds of this, it was a very obvious bug if you could freeze the AI in one spot. That would not have been an intentional mechanic.
Clearly another example of Kabam’s detachment from the community when their
community managers have no idea what the night crawler switch mechanic is about
This was not unique to NC, it was just used to bypass NCs special abilities.

nope its to get him out of his standard abilities into his special stance, you have it backwards.

Lormif · April 2019

Brainimpacter said:

Lormif said:

Akumaccb said:

Kabam Miike said:
I'm not sure, but I'll ask about it. From the sounds of this, it was a very obvious bug if you could freeze the AI in one spot. That would not have been an intentional mechanic.
Clearly another example of Kabam’s detachment from the community when their
community managers have no idea what the night crawler switch mechanic is about
This was not unique to NC, it was just used to bypass NCs special abilities.
nope its to get him out of his standard abilities into his special stance, you have it backwards.

You seem to not follow what people are saying very well. It is to bypass his abilities. You are supposed to attack into him to get him to block and change stances, instead you are exploiting a bug to bypass his abilities and get him to switch when he should not switch. I am not the one who has it backwards you are...

Brainimpacter said:
quote from the thread you closed, if its not intentional why has it been that way for 3 years and never spoke about as a bug, but a way to make NC switch, its only going to bother guys in your office now because people worked out that it can be used on other champs to make them block in end game content on nodes like block penetration which Corvus destroys
Kabam Miike said:
No, I understand what you mean, but you are still able to make the AI stop in spot and block for no reason when they are in no danger of being hit. I am still not sure if this was an intentional fix or not, but I don't think that interaction was ever intentional.

Let's keep these conversations in one thread.

Mikes original quote makes it seem like it was not known to be available at the time and he is checking to make sure this was supposed to be in or not.

Gamer · April 2019

Then ther also need to fix nc evade. He can I stand kil you when he evade with no time to rearet

Lormif · April 2019

Gamer said:
Then ther also need to fix nc evade. He can I stand kil you when he evade with no time to rearet

All evade works this way, the way you should work around his evade is to parry and then have a 3 or 4 hit combo. If he evades in the middle of a combo he, or anyone else, will generally not attack back or you will attack into a block. If he evades on hit 5 then they will generally attack you back and hit you.

Gamer · April 2019

Lormif said:

Gamer said:
Then ther also need to fix nc evade. He can I stand kil you when he evade with no time to rearet
All evade works this way, the way you should work around his evade is to parry and then have a 3 or 4 hit combo. If he evades in the middle of a combo he, or anyone else, will generally not attack back or you will attack into a block. If he evades on hit 5 then they will generally attack you back and hit you.

Oh pretty hard to do when it stun imun ikow hav to kil him ther offer way arund but no u can’t really do a think when nc dos it becasse he can hit you a the same time

Lormif · April 2019

Gamer said:

Lormif said:

Gamer said:
Then ther also need to fix nc evade. He can I stand kil you when he evade with no time to rearet
All evade works this way, the way you should work around his evade is to parry and then have a 3 or 4 hit combo. If he evades in the middle of a combo he, or anyone else, will generally not attack back or you will attack into a block. If he evades on hit 5 then they will generally attack you back and hit you.
Oh pretty hard to do when it stun imun ikow hav to kil him ther offer way arund but no u can’t really do a think when nc dos it becasse he can hit you a the same time

yes it is hard, and all evaders are hard in this case, domino, ultron. NC is harder because evade IS his special, that is why you can get him to change his stance by attacking into him for a prolong period of time. One of the easiest, but still inconsistent, is to do a combo into his block and then launch a special.

Gamer · April 2019

Lormif said:

Gamer said:

Lormif said:

Gamer said:
Then ther also need to fix nc evade. He can I stand kil you when he evade with no time to rearet
All evade works this way, the way you should work around his evade is to parry and then have a 3 or 4 hit combo. If he evades in the middle of a combo he, or anyone else, will generally not attack back or you will attack into a block. If he evades on hit 5 then they will generally attack you back and hit you.
Oh pretty hard to do when it stun imun ikow hav to kil him ther offer way arund but no u can’t really do a think when nc dos it becasse he can hit you a the same time
yes it is hard, and all evaders are hard in this case, domino, ultron. NC is harder because evade IS his special, that is why you can get him to change his stance by attacking into him for a prolong period of time. One of the easiest, but still inconsistent, is to do a combo into his block and then launch a special.

Yeah and then he evade that sp bum you done. Don’t think you get that at all I’m find with whatever ther do. Just wierd it has Ben ther so long.

Lormif · April 2019

Gamer said:

Lormif said:

Gamer said:

Lormif said:

Gamer said:
Then ther also need to fix nc evade. He can I stand kil you when he evade with no time to rearet
All evade works this way, the way you should work around his evade is to parry and then have a 3 or 4 hit combo. If he evades in the middle of a combo he, or anyone else, will generally not attack back or you will attack into a block. If he evades on hit 5 then they will generally attack you back and hit you.
Oh pretty hard to do when it stun imun ikow hav to kil him ther offer way arund but no u can’t really do a think when nc dos it becasse he can hit you a the same time
yes it is hard, and all evaders are hard in this case, domino, ultron. NC is harder because evade IS his special, that is why you can get him to change his stance by attacking into him for a prolong period of time. One of the easiest, but still inconsistent, is to do a combo into his block and then launch a special.
Yeah and then he evade that sp bum you done. Don’t think you get that at all I’m find with whatever ther do. Just wierd it has Ben ther so long.

I get it fine, I have only known about the trick for a short period or time, I made it through 99% of the content without it, so I understand perfectly.

Kabam Miike · April 2019

Brainimpacter said:
quote from the thread you closed, if its not intentional why has it been that way for 3 years and never spoke about as a bug, but a way to make NC switch, its only going to bother guys in your office now because people worked out that it can be used on other champs to make them block in end game content on nodes like block penetration which Corvus destroys
Kabam Miike said:
No, I understand what you mean, but you are still able to make the AI stop in spot and block for no reason when they are in no danger of being hit. I am still not sure if this was an intentional fix or not, but I don't think that interaction was ever intentional.

Let's keep these conversations in one thread.

Hey There!

it doesn't matter when a bug is discovered, or how long it's been in game. When a fix is available, it will be applied. Again, I'm still not sure if this was intentional or not, and it's pretty low on the list of priorities at this time, but I personally don't see how it could have been intentional, nor do I really think it should be changed back.

But again, that's me.

Mr_Platypus · April 2019

Regardless of all that, it’s method to trigger an AI response, just like how doing a 4 hit combo and dashing back triggers the AI to almost certainly follow you, allowing the dash back intercept to work.
Dashing back and leaving yourself open to attack triggers the AI to make an attack, if they have a special then they’ll try that.
Blocking attacks makes them trigger a heavy.

AI responds to certain stimuli in certain ways, if you’ve made changes to AI then whatever, we learn to deal with it. However if this change is being made then there should be a new way to trigger the AI to use their ‘dash back and hold block’ abilities.

@Kabam Miike that’s the way I see this - just an AI reaction to a stimulus, it’s a weird one for sure, but no different to the others that are widely used to make the AI more cooperative

Lormif · April 2019

Mr_Platypus said:
Regardless of all that, it’s method to trigger an AI response, just like how doing a 4 hit combo and dashing back triggers the AI to almost certainly follow you, allowing the dash back intercept to work.
Dashing back and leaving yourself open to attack triggers the AI to make an attack, if they have a special then they’ll try that.
Blocking attacks makes them trigger a heavy.

AI responds to certain stimuli in certain ways, if you’ve made changes to AI then whatever, we learn to deal with it. However if this change is being made then there should be a new way to trigger the AI to use their ‘dash back and hold block’ abilities

In this case the AI is not responding to specific stimuli, it is locking the AI. Why would they introduce a way to easymode a champs primary character for everyone? There is already a way to get him to dashback and hold block, when he dashes back charge in and hit him while he is blocking. It is not consistent but it is vastly better than exploiting a bug.

Mr_Platypus · April 2019

Lormif said:

Mr_Platypus said:
Regardless of all that, it’s method to trigger an AI response, just like how doing a 4 hit combo and dashing back triggers the AI to almost certainly follow you, allowing the dash back intercept to work.
Dashing back and leaving yourself open to attack triggers the AI to make an attack, if they have a special then they’ll try that.
Blocking attacks makes them trigger a heavy.

AI responds to certain stimuli in certain ways, if you’ve made changes to AI then whatever, we learn to deal with it. However if this change is being made then there should be a new way to trigger the AI to use their ‘dash back and hold block’ abilities
In this case the AI is not responding to specific stimuli, it is locking the AI. Why would they introduce a way to easymode a champs primary character for everyone? There is already a way to get him to dashback and hold block, when he dashes back charge in and hit him while he is blocking. It is not consistent but it is vastly better than exploiting a bug.

Well it is, it’s responding by holding block, and ‘locking’ implies that it’ll never respond again, which is false, more often than not they’ll trigger their ability (NC stance switch, hyperion cosmic healing) then jump straight back to attacking. If they don’t have an abilityike that, they still don’t ‘lock up’.
Regardless this isn’t confirmed as a bug so let’s try and avoid throwing out “exploiting a bug” yeah? This thread is to report the AI change, so that kabam May investigate, not for others to jump in and attack use for using what has always been presumed to be a legitimate method of play.

Lormif · April 2019

Mr_Platypus said:

Lormif said:

Mr_Platypus said:
Regardless of all that, it’s method to trigger an AI response, just like how doing a 4 hit combo and dashing back triggers the AI to almost certainly follow you, allowing the dash back intercept to work.
Dashing back and leaving yourself open to attack triggers the AI to make an attack, if they have a special then they’ll try that.
Blocking attacks makes them trigger a heavy.

AI responds to certain stimuli in certain ways, if you’ve made changes to AI then whatever, we learn to deal with it. However if this change is being made then there should be a new way to trigger the AI to use their ‘dash back and hold block’ abilities
In this case the AI is not responding to specific stimuli, it is locking the AI. Why would they introduce a way to easymode a champs primary character for everyone? There is already a way to get him to dashback and hold block, when he dashes back charge in and hit him while he is blocking. It is not consistent but it is vastly better than exploiting a bug.
Well it is, it’s responding by holding block, and ‘locking’ implies that it’ll never respond again, which is false, more often than not they’ll trigger their ability (NC stance switch, hyperion cosmic healing) then jump straight back to attacking. If they don’t have an abilityike that, they still don’t ‘lock up’.
Regardless this isn’t confirmed as a bug so let’s try and avoid throwing out “exploiting a bug” yeah? This thread is to report the AI change, so that kabam May investigate, not for others to jump in and attack use for using what has always been presumed to be a legitimate method of play.

it does not respond again typically until you charge in and attack, that is locking. You can sit there a long period and it will just sit there. I am sorry but most people I knew figured it was an exploit when I first saw it happened on mordock I was like yea, what is going on, because he would just sit there until I attacked him.

Also I did not attack anyone for using this, I just said it was an exploit.

MSRDLD · April 2019

Hey There!

it doesn't matter when a bug is discovered, or how long it's been in game. When a fix is available, it will be applied. Again, I'm still not sure if this was intentional or not, and it's pretty low on the list of priorities at this time, but I personally don't see how it could have been intentional, nor do I really think it should be changed back.

But again, that's me.

A change to AI behavior, like the one mentioned here, may have unintentional consequences. Anytime a pattern is recognized in the AI, the player base is going to recognize it and exploit it. If this behavior is changed to something else, then the player base will recognize it and exploit it too. It may then be exploitable on ALL characters. Do you see where I am going with this?

MSRDLD · April 2019

Hey There!

it doesn't matter when a bug is discovered, or how long it's been in game. When a fix is available, it will be applied. Again, I'm still not sure if this was intentional or not, and it's pretty low on the list of priorities at this time, but I personally don't see how it could have been intentional, nor do I really think it should be changed back.

But again, that's me.

The player base has a way of identifying behaviors in the AI and exploiting them for their benefit. A change to the AI behavior, like the one mentioned here, may have unintended consequences. If this behavior is changed, it would likely affect ALL champions. A new behavior will then emerge, the player base will figure it out, and then exploit it also in a way that may benefit the player base more greatly than before.

Mr_Platypus · April 2019

Lormif said:

Mr_Platypus said:

Lormif said:

Mr_Platypus said:
Regardless of all that, it’s method to trigger an AI response, just like how doing a 4 hit combo and dashing back triggers the AI to almost certainly follow you, allowing the dash back intercept to work.
Dashing back and leaving yourself open to attack triggers the AI to make an attack, if they have a special then they’ll try that.
Blocking attacks makes them trigger a heavy.

AI responds to certain stimuli in certain ways, if you’ve made changes to AI then whatever, we learn to deal with it. However if this change is being made then there should be a new way to trigger the AI to use their ‘dash back and hold block’ abilities
In this case the AI is not responding to specific stimuli, it is locking the AI. Why would they introduce a way to easymode a champs primary character for everyone? There is already a way to get him to dashback and hold block, when he dashes back charge in and hit him while he is blocking. It is not consistent but it is vastly better than exploiting a bug.
Well it is, it’s responding by holding block, and ‘locking’ implies that it’ll never respond again, which is false, more often than not they’ll trigger their ability (NC stance switch, hyperion cosmic healing) then jump straight back to attacking. If they don’t have an abilityike that, they still don’t ‘lock up’.
Regardless this isn’t confirmed as a bug so let’s try and avoid throwing out “exploiting a bug” yeah? This thread is to report the AI change, so that kabam May investigate, not for others to jump in and attack use for using what has always been presumed to be a legitimate method of play.
it does not respond again typically until you charge in and attack, that is locking. You can sit there a long period and it will just sit there. I am sorry but most people I knew figured it was an exploit when I first saw it happened on mordock I was like yea, what is going on, because he would just sit there until I attacked him.

Also I did not attack anyone for using this, I just said it was an exploit.

Well in my experience over the past couple years, and I’ve used it a lot since learning it (though never against modok because why bother) they trigger their ability and begin attacking pretty much immediately afterwards, so I repeat, one final time, it doesn’t lock the AI up.

Lormif · April 2019

Mr_Platypus said:

Lormif said:

Mr_Platypus said:

Lormif said:

Mr_Platypus said:
Regardless of all that, it’s method to trigger an AI response, just like how doing a 4 hit combo and dashing back triggers the AI to almost certainly follow you, allowing the dash back intercept to work.
Dashing back and leaving yourself open to attack triggers the AI to make an attack, if they have a special then they’ll try that.
Blocking attacks makes them trigger a heavy.

AI responds to certain stimuli in certain ways, if you’ve made changes to AI then whatever, we learn to deal with it. However if this change is being made then there should be a new way to trigger the AI to use their ‘dash back and hold block’ abilities
In this case the AI is not responding to specific stimuli, it is locking the AI. Why would they introduce a way to easymode a champs primary character for everyone? There is already a way to get him to dashback and hold block, when he dashes back charge in and hit him while he is blocking. It is not consistent but it is vastly better than exploiting a bug.
Well it is, it’s responding by holding block, and ‘locking’ implies that it’ll never respond again, which is false, more often than not they’ll trigger their ability (NC stance switch, hyperion cosmic healing) then jump straight back to attacking. If they don’t have an abilityike that, they still don’t ‘lock up’.
Regardless this isn’t confirmed as a bug so let’s try and avoid throwing out “exploiting a bug” yeah? This thread is to report the AI change, so that kabam May investigate, not for others to jump in and attack use for using what has always been presumed to be a legitimate method of play.
it does not respond again typically until you charge in and attack, that is locking. You can sit there a long period and it will just sit there. I am sorry but most people I knew figured it was an exploit when I first saw it happened on mordock I was like yea, what is going on, because he would just sit there until I attacked him.

Also I did not attack anyone for using this, I just said it was an exploit.
Well in my experience over the past couple years, and I’ve used it a lot since learning it (though never against modok because why bother) they trigger their ability and begin attacking pretty much immediately afterwards, so I repeat, one final time, it doesn’t lock the AI up.

If you use it intentionally or not does not matter, it locks up the AI when the "trick" is performed. The AI sits there and does nothing but block unless you do something else. You have to move or attack or do something, or any AI at all. It is used when playing massacre on mordok and others to get them to block, the same when attacking with sentinel.

Hulksmasshh · April 2019

Kabam Miike said:

Brainimpacter said:
quote from the thread you closed, if its not intentional why has it been that way for 3 years and never spoke about as a bug, but a way to make NC switch, its only going to bother guys in your office now because people worked out that it can be used on other champs to make them block in end game content on nodes like block penetration which Corvus destroys
Kabam Miike said:
No, I understand what you mean, but you are still able to make the AI stop in spot and block for no reason when they are in no danger of being hit. I am still not sure if this was an intentional fix or not, but I don't think that interaction was ever intentional.

Let's keep these conversations in one thread.

Hey There!

it doesn't matter when a bug is discovered, or how long it's been in game. When a fix is available, it will be applied. Again, I'm still not sure if this was intentional or not, and it's pretty low on the list of priorities at this time, but I personally don't see how it could have been intentional, nor do I really think it should be changed back.

But again, that's me.

Kabam Miike this AI behavior was not a bug in the same sense that baiting heavies, intercepts, backdraft attacks are not bugs. It was a simply a behavior of the AI. It was useful for situations like the NC swap and times when you want to stall time and have the AI play more defensively. It was hardly overpowered but a neat skill to know. When big changes like this happen without documentation or mention, how are we supposed to know what is a bug and what isn’t a bug when it comes to AI. Is baiting heavies a bug that will be fixed soon?

This may be “low-priority” compared to the many bugs released this patch but any other patch it should be top priority at least to figure out what caused the change.

From the sounds of it, it seems like this was not an intentional change and probably the result of the new nodes, interactions, or the Deadpool April fools event. In that case, the AI should be reverted to what it was before.

Lormif · April 2019

Hulksmasshh said:

Kabam Miike said:

Brainimpacter said:
quote from the thread you closed, if its not intentional why has it been that way for 3 years and never spoke about as a bug, but a way to make NC switch, its only going to bother guys in your office now because people worked out that it can be used on other champs to make them block in end game content on nodes like block penetration which Corvus destroys
Kabam Miike said:
No, I understand what you mean, but you are still able to make the AI stop in spot and block for no reason when they are in no danger of being hit. I am still not sure if this was an intentional fix or not, but I don't think that interaction was ever intentional.

Let's keep these conversations in one thread.

Hey There!

it doesn't matter when a bug is discovered, or how long it's been in game. When a fix is available, it will be applied. Again, I'm still not sure if this was intentional or not, and it's pretty low on the list of priorities at this time, but I personally don't see how it could have been intentional, nor do I really think it should be changed back.

But again, that's me.
Kabam Miike this AI behavior was not a bug in the same sense that baiting heavies, intercepts, backdraft attacks are not bugs. It was a simply a behavior of the AI. It was useful for situations like the NC swap and times when you want to stall time and have the AI play more defensively. It was hardly overpowered but a neat skill to know. When big changes like this happen without documentation or mention, how are we supposed to know what is a bug and what isn’t a bug when it comes to AI. Is baiting heavies a bug that will be fixed soon?

This may be “low-priority” compared to the many bugs released this patch but any other patch it should be top priority at least to figure out what caused the change.

From the sounds of it, it seems like this was not an intentional change and probably the result of the new nodes, interactions, or the Deadpool April fools event. In that case, the AI should be reverted to what it was before.

That depends. If it was an unintentional fix to a bug they did not know about then no it should not be reverted. If it is an unintentional thing to something they have no issue being in then yes it should be reverted. It seems they have an issue with it being there though, which makes perfect sense due to the abusive nature of it, but that is up to them.

Gamer · April 2019

Lormif said:

Gamer said:

Lormif said:

Gamer said:
Then ther also need to fix nc evade. He can I stand kil you when he evade with no time to rearet
All evade works this way, the way you should work around his evade is to parry and then have a 3 or 4 hit combo. If he evades in the middle of a combo he, or anyone else, will generally not attack back or you will attack into a block. If he evades on hit 5 then they will generally attack you back and hit you.
Oh pretty hard to do when it stun imun ikow hav to kil him ther offer way arund but no u can’t really do a think when nc dos it becasse he can hit you a the same time
yes it is hard, and all evaders are hard in this case, domino, ultron. NC is harder because evade IS his special, that is why you can get him to change his stance by attacking into him for a prolong period of time. One of the easiest, but still inconsistent, is to do a combo into his block and then launch a special.

Yeah and then he evade that sp bum you done. Don’t think you get that at all I’m find with whatever ther do. Just wierd it has Ben ther so long.

Lormif said:

Mr_Platypus said:

Lormif said:

Mr_Platypus said:
Regardless of all that, it’s method to trigger an AI response, just like how doing a 4 hit combo and dashing back triggers the AI to almost certainly follow you, allowing the dash back intercept to work.
Dashing back and leaving yourself open to attack triggers the AI to make an attack, if they have a special then they’ll try that.
Blocking attacks makes them trigger a heavy.

AI responds to certain stimuli in certain ways, if you’ve made changes to AI then whatever, we learn to deal with it. However if this change is being made then there should be a new way to trigger the AI to use their ‘dash back and hold block’ abilities
In this case the AI is not responding to specific stimuli, it is locking the AI. Why would they introduce a way to easymode a champs primary character for everyone? There is already a way to get him to dashback and hold block, when he dashes back charge in and hit him while he is blocking. It is not consistent but it is vastly better than exploiting a bug.
Well it is, it’s responding by holding block, and ‘locking’ implies that it’ll never respond again, which is false, more often than not they’ll trigger their ability (NC stance switch, hyperion cosmic healing) then jump straight back to attacking. If they don’t have an abilityike that, they still don’t ‘lock up’.
Regardless this isn’t confirmed as a bug so let’s try and avoid throwing out “exploiting a bug” yeah? This thread is to report the AI change, so that kabam May investigate, not for others to jump in and attack use for using what has always been presumed to be a legitimate method of play.
it does not respond again typically until you charge in and attack, that is locking. You can sit there a long period and it will just sit there. I am sorry but most people I knew figured it was an exploit when I first saw it happened on mordock I was like yea, what is going on, because he would just sit there until I attacked him.

Also I did not attack anyone for using this, I just said it was an exploit.

Can said you can not just sit ther he wild go at you so aging you is talk abudt the free

mydnight · April 2019

3 years. It was like this for 3 years, and it's suddenly changed. The detractors don't see anything wrong with this?

Drax, AA.

What happens when your favorite character has a "bug" discovered and it gets "fixed?"

Exploit or not, no notification in the patch notes makes this wrong.

Lormif · April 2019

mydnight said:
3 years. It was like this for 3 years, and it's suddenly changed. The detractors don't see anything wrong with this?

Drax, AA.

What happens when your favorite character has a "bug" discovered and it gets "fixed?"

Exploit or not, no notification in the patch notes makes this wrong.

If my favorite character has a bug and it gets fixed ill get over it, however this was not a character with a bug, this is a bug in how the AI reacts when certain things happen, that it gets stuck in a specific position, regardless of the character you are playing, or playing against. And no notification is because they didnt know about this and therefore didnt know it changed.

AI response to user inputs altered

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