A few of you have been discussing if you were to hand your phone to a person sitting next to you, could kabaam tell if someone else was playing. Some of you are vastly underestimating technology. Could they? Absolutely. Have they spent the money to implement the technology? Most likely not.
However chess.com has millions of users. They can accurately tell if someone is cheating, just one move in a game even among the highest rated players in the world. More than one grandmaster in the top 100 in the world have been banned. There is more to it, but a top 100 player in the world filled a 300 million dollar lawsuit and chess.com didn't back down their algorithms are so accurate. This is just cheating on 1 move in one game.
So yes it would be extremely easy, if Kabam wanted to spend the money, to detect if anyone other than the account owner was playing.
Guyz my main point for dis post is merc r exploring and still those accounts r running fine how could i be banned not even sharing to anyone or mercing my friend played my game through my device he didnt cheat at all
Yes, i do think they can’t. Banning people off of probability and no evidence is completely unjustified and will harm more innocent players than not.
They put you in prison for less than that.
There's no such thing as absolute certainty anywhere. The standard in the United States for criminal trials is proof beyond reasonable doubt. They explicitly instruct jurors that beyond reasonable doubt does not mean no doubt at all, or absolute proof. It means you have no reasonable reason to doubt the guilt of the defendant. Which means there is a probability, however small, you might be wrong.
That in the context you were replying to was probability and no evidence.
If they put people in prison for less than that then they shouldn't, and it should be overturned if re-tried.
You went on to explain beyond reasonable doubt.
Beyond reasonable doubt doesn't seem congruent to probability and no evidence.
Having said that, I think the point you were making was the lack of conflicting geolocation data doesn't mean that there is no evidence. It's whether or not a wealth of behavioral data is considered sufficient on its own. It's the equivalent of not being able to place someone at the scene of the crime but having all this other evidence. e.g. cyber criminals getting busted by digital fingerprints.
Besides that, Kabam do not operate within the judicial system and don't require reasonable doubt let alone beyond it.
If he played on your own device that you just handed to him, it is (no matter how friggin absurd it sounds) still a bannable offense. You may not share your account with others. In theory, your gf/bro opening crystals is still cheating.
However, I see no way of detecting this. Afaik, mcoc has no facial recognition, so unless your friend has god skills and you are a scrub, there won't be much ways to tell.
Still, if you get banned, it's based on violation of TOS and you know it's deserved.
Whether or not it is against the TOS I don't see how you can get in trouble if your friend played on your device. There would be no way to prove it. Even with your forum post, you could be trolling.
He literally just told us.
And how do you know it is actually OP and not someone who has access to this forum account?
Did your friend actually physically play the game for you in your account on your device or you shared your log in so he could play it for you on a different device? Or... Did the two of you just chat about Necropolis and he explained to you the paths and the defenders and made suggestions on which paths you should explore with which champs in which order and then you did the game play yourself?
The first is 100% a ban. The latter shouldn't be
Genuine question cause I’m confused. Is it against TOS to play for someone on their device with their own account logged in? For example, if one of my irl friends is having trouble with a fight and they hand me their phone with their own account logged in and I finish the fight for them, is this a ban able offense?
To those saying it's undetectable if you just hand your device to someone and let them play (and you do not then announce you did it on the forums), Kabam has said they can detect people playing poorly on purpose in BGs. You really think they can't detect some random mid player suddenly playing with much greater skill in some of the hardest content in the game? Especially content they are looking at very closely to find cheaters?
Yes, i do think they can’t. Banning people off of probability and no evidence is completely unjustified and will harm more innocent players than not.
The evidence is in the data. Plus I'm pretty sure a confessional is not unjustified probability. lol
Im responding to something else entirely, OP mentioned they can detect a shift from when a player is performing poorly to doing well and act on that. Concluding that the player cant improve in that short a time and are using some sort of cheat or merc on their device would indefinitely get many innocent players screwed over.
And then after "they" complete necro exploration and suddenly return to their average to below average play?
Guyz my main point for dis post is merc r exploring and still those accounts r running fine how could i be banned not even sharing to anyone or mercing my friend played my game through my device he didnt cheat at all
OK you have convinced me. People have gotten away with murder, therefore no one should ever be convicted of murder ever again.
To those saying it's undetectable if you just hand your device to someone and let them play (and you do not then announce you did it on the forums), Kabam has said they can detect people playing poorly on purpose in BGs. You really think they can't detect some random mid player suddenly playing with much greater skill in some of the hardest content in the game? Especially content they are looking at very closely to find cheaters?
Yes, i do think they can’t. Banning people off of probability and no evidence is completely unjustified and will harm more innocent players than not.
The evidence is in the data. Plus I'm pretty sure a confessional is not unjustified probability. lol
Im responding to something else entirely, OP mentioned they can detect a shift from when a player is performing poorly to doing well and act on that. Concluding that the player cant improve in that short a time and are using some sort of cheat or merc on their device would indefinitely get many innocent players screwed over.
And then after "they" complete necro exploration and suddenly return to their average to below average play?
Thats called jumping to conclusions. Put this into perspective: You are an exceptional who plays often and are patient but have an overwhelming amount of resources and could care less how you spend them, which now from kabams data can be assumed that you are below average. Then when necropolis released, you notice the rewards are game changing, and are now encouraged to play the game for real this time, which could be intended by kabam in releasing a new exciting abyss level piece of content, you suddenly regain interest and play exceptional from start to finish. This is due to the major difference in resource demand the content has to offer, where you can't just blow 100 revives like its nothing, because you wont get far if you dont try.
This sudden shift in how they play could be assumed to be many things, but imagine being a genuine player and being struck with an invalid TOS violation due to a performance difference.
I myself often play like a scrub in any content that isnt alliance war or something that isn’t abyss level, because the content typically doesn’t require much skill, have much to offer, or may just be tedious to get through and i might hercules my way using l1 revives just to blast through the content which im confident many people do.
The point is, going based on just performance fluctuation just isn’t sufficient evidence. This is a clever way to crack down on cheaters that are trying to be sneaky, but it isn’t ethical or reliable as too many innocent players will be involved and be issued punishments. Personally if the violation is account piloting due to someone else taking control of someones device in person, it’s impossible for any game to take action without violating ones privacy.
As much as i want cheaters to go down, my view is that innocent players shouldn’t be taken down with them, especially if the only evidence is based off assumptions which is very unethical. They are doing the right thing as is banning mercs and cheaters in waves with the solid concrete evidence they have, and will likely have to be more patient with the more sneaky ones.
I will say though, the reason this can be a clever way of tracking cheaters is through fast progression especially in newer accounts. Just a dramatic example, lets say a player started tomorrow and within a week they have obtained paragon, explored necropolis and have 6* r5s and a 7* r3. In cases like that it would be logical to investigate the account as that is a very improbable event for anyone to do legitimately. This is probably what you guys viewed initially and alluded to which i agree with being worthy of investigation.
Anywho thats all i wanted to add, kabam has honestly been doing a great job and get better and better at handling these things, so i trust they will take the best course of action even if its not 100% consistent as thats very tough to make every right call.
To those saying it's undetectable if you just hand your device to someone and let them play (and you do not then announce you did it on the forums), Kabam has said they can detect people playing poorly on purpose in BGs. You really think they can't detect some random mid player suddenly playing with much greater skill in some of the hardest content in the game? Especially content they are looking at very closely to find cheaters?
Yes, i do think they can’t. Banning people off of probability and no evidence is completely unjustified and will harm more innocent players than not.
The evidence is in the data. Plus I'm pretty sure a confessional is not unjustified probability. lol
Im responding to something else entirely, OP mentioned they can detect a shift from when a player is performing poorly to doing well and act on that. Concluding that the player cant improve in that short a time and are using some sort of cheat or merc on their device would indefinitely get many innocent players screwed over.
And then after "they" complete necro exploration and suddenly return to their average to below average play?
Thats called jumping to conclusions. Put this into perspective: You are an exceptional who plays often and are patient but have an overwhelming amount of resources and could care less how you spend them, which now from kabams data can be assumed that you are below average. Then when necropolis released, you notice the rewards are game changing, and are now encouraged to play the game for real this time, which could be intended by kabam in releasing a new exciting abyss level piece of content, you suddenly regain interest and play exceptional from start to finish. This is due to the major difference in resource demand the content has to offer, where you can't just blow 100 revives like its nothing, because you wont get far if you dont try.
This sudden shift in how they play could be assumed to be many things, but imagine being a genuine player and being struck with an invalid TOS violation due to a performance difference.
I myself often play like a scrub in any content that isnt alliance war or something that isn’t abyss level, because the content typically doesn’t require much skill, have much to offer, or may just be tedious to get through and i might hercules my way using l1 revives just to blast through the content which im confident many people do.
The point is, going based on just performance fluctuation just isn’t sufficient evidence. This is a clever way to crack down on cheaters that are trying to be sneaky, but it isn’t ethical or reliable as too many innocent players will be involved and be issued punishments. Personally if the violation is account piloting due to someone else taking control of someones device in person, it’s impossible for any game to take action without violating ones privacy.
As much as i want cheaters to go down, my view is that innocent players shouldn’t be taken down with them, especially if the only evidence is based off assumptions which is very unethical. They are doing the right thing as is banning mercs and cheaters in waves with the solid concrete evidence they have, and will likely have to be more patient with the more sneaky ones.
I will say though, the reason this can be a clever way of tracking cheaters is through fast progression especially in newer accounts. Just a dramatic example, lets say a player started tomorrow and within a week they have obtained paragon, explored necropolis and have 6* r5s and a 7* r3. In cases like that it would be logical to investigate the account as that is a very improbable event for anyone to do legitimately. This is probably what you guys viewed initially and alluded to which i agree with being worthy of investigation.
Anywho thats all i wanted to add, kabam has honestly been doing a great job and get better and better at handling these things, so i trust they will take the best course of action even if its not 100% consistent as thats very tough to make every right call.
What a ludicrous rebuttal. If you honestly think your scenario is more likely than mine in the vast majority of cases, I don't even know what to say.
To those saying it's undetectable if you just hand your device to someone and let them play (and you do not then announce you did it on the forums), Kabam has said they can detect people playing poorly on purpose in BGs. You really think they can't detect some random mid player suddenly playing with much greater skill in some of the hardest content in the game? Especially content they are looking at very closely to find cheaters?
Yes, i do think they can’t. Banning people off of probability and no evidence is completely unjustified and will harm more innocent players than not.
The evidence is in the data. Plus I'm pretty sure a confessional is not unjustified probability. lol
Im responding to something else entirely, OP mentioned they can detect a shift from when a player is performing poorly to doing well and act on that. Concluding that the player cant improve in that short a time and are using some sort of cheat or merc on their device would indefinitely get many innocent players screwed over.
And then after "they" complete necro exploration and suddenly return to their average to below average play?
Thats called jumping to conclusions. Put this into perspective: You are an exceptional who plays often and are patient but have an overwhelming amount of resources and could care less how you spend them, which now from kabams data can be assumed that you are below average. Then when necropolis released, you notice the rewards are game changing, and are now encouraged to play the game for real this time, which could be intended by kabam in releasing a new exciting abyss level piece of content, you suddenly regain interest and play exceptional from start to finish. This is due to the major difference in resource demand the content has to offer, where you can't just blow 100 revives like its nothing, because you wont get far if you dont try.
This sudden shift in how they play could be assumed to be many things, but imagine being a genuine player and being struck with an invalid TOS violation due to a performance difference.
I myself often play like a scrub in any content that isnt alliance war or something that isn’t abyss level, because the content typically doesn’t require much skill, have much to offer, or may just be tedious to get through and i might hercules my way using l1 revives just to blast through the content which im confident many people do.
The point is, going based on just performance fluctuation just isn’t sufficient evidence. This is a clever way to crack down on cheaters that are trying to be sneaky, but it isn’t ethical or reliable as too many innocent players will be involved and be issued punishments. Personally if the violation is account piloting due to someone else taking control of someones device in person, it’s impossible for any game to take action without violating ones privacy.
As much as i want cheaters to go down, my view is that innocent players shouldn’t be taken down with them, especially if the only evidence is based off assumptions which is very unethical. They are doing the right thing as is banning mercs and cheaters in waves with the solid concrete evidence they have, and will likely have to be more patient with the more sneaky ones.
I will say though, the reason this can be a clever way of tracking cheaters is through fast progression especially in newer accounts. Just a dramatic example, lets say a player started tomorrow and within a week they have obtained paragon, explored necropolis and have 6* r5s and a 7* r3. In cases like that it would be logical to investigate the account as that is a very improbable event for anyone to do legitimately. This is probably what you guys viewed initially and alluded to which i agree with being worthy of investigation.
Anywho thats all i wanted to add, kabam has honestly been doing a great job and get better and better at handling these things, so i trust they will take the best course of action even if its not 100% consistent as thats very tough to make every right call.
What a ludicrous rebuttal. If you honestly think your scenario is more likely than mine in the vast majority of cases, I don't even know what to say.
You dont know what to say because i already addressed what you had to say and answered it. My example was used to show what the data doesn’t see. A player’s motivation has a major factor towards their play. A players amount of resources could impact their play. Their roster has an impact. Whether they are retired and getting back in the game. Then if you punish all of these players solely to target the players that pass their phone to a buddy, thats the issue. Now this isn’t something kabam is actually doing as far as i am aware, but thats all im saying in response to what you suggested, and why it isn’t ethical or reasonable for that matter. Now if we bring it to the extreme like i mentioned in my last example, thats where i can see the concern. This is most likely what you were thinking of, you can correct me if I’m wrong.
If you need further clarity, you say after necro 100% they return to playing below average. I honestly believe this to be a very common thing people really do, because after such an accomplishment of spending strenuous hours into beating the most rewarding and longest content in the game, people are gonna take it easy on other areas in the game and enjoy everything.
Sorry if i dragged this on but maybe you can see my point now, this is as best as i can word it.
1) struggles to make it through stuff like TB EQ every month 2) rips through Necro exploration like an expert player 3) returns to struggling through monthly content again right after that
the most likely explanation is that they're just lacking the motivation to put full effort and attention into their play outside of Necropolis?
Ridiculous.
I definitely agree that the rewards are a motivator. But what it's motivating them to do is cheat.
There are hundreds of mercs (some of them being top players in top clans), who play for hundreds of people... and nothing. Just stay quiet from now on and you'll be safe. Sad but true.
1) struggles to make it through stuff like TB EQ every month 2) rips through Necro exploration like an expert player 3) returns to struggling through monthly content again right after that
the most likely explanation is that they're just lacking the motivation to put full effort and attention into their play outside of Necropolis?
Ridiculous.
I definitely agree that the rewards are a motivator. But what it's motivating them to do is cheat.
It’s ridiculous to assume there’s no other possibility aside from them cheating, and penalize them for it. Someone that appears to be “struggling” could just not care about how they perform and want to get things over with. Going by your logic, people could get banned in war, as one war they could have a terrible performance, dropping 20 deaths, but then the next have a flawless war. Judging off of that data anyone could assume they had someone take over their account that war, but there is no actual way to tell.
You also keep mentioning the most likely scenario. The most likely scenario is irrelevant solely because there’s endless possibilities as to what could stimulate the change in someones playstyle. Whether they play consistent or inconsistently, ultimately falls on how the player feels, which is not something data can detect.
Let me ask you this. If you were a developer and noticed that a player was playing below average in areas of content like arena, alliance quest, incursions, and monthly event quests, but notice they play exceptionally well when they were in areas like abyss, necropolis, and story mode, and has never cheated before.
Additionally there is another player that is a cheater, but you don’t know that yet. This player plays identical to the other player i mentioned, but the only difference is they passed their phone to a friend to do their necropolis.
Tell me how the cheater would get caught without the other player receiving the same punishment
This is why I keep mentioning "most likely scenario". Because if 90%-95% of the time it is piloting or mercing, that matters.
Also, I think I am talking about a more significant difference in play quality than you appear to be talking about. There is a huge difference between quality, but sloppy play by someone who is just not paying as much attention and someone who is simply unable to make it through EQ/SQ or needs to spend massively to do so, but magically is able to get through necro like a pro.
I mean how many times do ppl talk about a nerf in revive rates and get angry when people respond with "git gud" or "skill issue". If as many people as you seem to be implying just play well below their true skill level in most content, the entire argument seems to be made moot. These people should actually just play better so they won't need to spend as much on revives since you're saying they should actually be able to do so.
No, I'm back to my point that it is much more likely that these people are just not good and relying on others to help them through Necropolis and the scenario you are describing are outliers.
Comments
However chess.com has millions of users. They can accurately tell if someone is cheating, just one move in a game even among the highest rated players in the world. More than one grandmaster in the top 100 in the world have been banned. There is more to it, but a top 100 player in the world filled a 300 million dollar lawsuit and chess.com didn't back down their algorithms are so accurate. This is just cheating on 1 move in one game.
So yes it would be extremely easy, if Kabam wanted to spend the money, to detect if anyone other than the account owner was playing.
If they put people in prison for less than that then they shouldn't, and it should be overturned if re-tried.
You went on to explain beyond reasonable doubt.
Beyond reasonable doubt doesn't seem congruent to probability and no evidence.
Having said that, I think the point you were making was the lack of conflicting geolocation data doesn't mean that there is no evidence. It's whether or not a wealth of behavioral data is considered sufficient on its own. It's the equivalent of not being able to place someone at the scene of the crime but having all this other evidence. e.g. cyber criminals getting busted by digital fingerprints.
Besides that, Kabam do not operate within the judicial system and don't require reasonable doubt let alone beyond it.
However, I see no way of detecting this. Afaik, mcoc has no facial recognition, so unless your friend has god skills and you are a scrub, there won't be much ways to tell.
Still, if you get banned, it's based on violation of TOS and you know it's deserved.
FOREVER PURGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Put this into perspective: You are an exceptional who plays often and are patient but have an overwhelming amount of resources and could care less how you spend them, which now from kabams data can be assumed that you are below average. Then when necropolis released, you notice the rewards are game changing, and are now encouraged to play the game for real this time, which could be intended by kabam in releasing a new exciting abyss level piece of content, you suddenly regain interest and play exceptional from start to finish. This is due to the major difference in resource demand the content has to offer, where you can't just blow 100 revives like its nothing, because you wont get far if you dont try.
This sudden shift in how they play could be assumed to be many things, but imagine being a genuine player and being struck with an invalid TOS violation due to a performance difference.
I myself often play like a scrub in any content that isnt alliance war or something that isn’t abyss level, because the content typically doesn’t require much skill, have much to offer, or may just be tedious to get through and i might hercules my way using l1 revives just to blast through the content which im confident many people do.
The point is, going based on just performance fluctuation just isn’t sufficient evidence. This is a clever way to crack down on cheaters that are trying to be sneaky, but it isn’t ethical or reliable as too many innocent players will be involved and be issued punishments. Personally if the violation is account piloting due to someone else taking control of someones device in person, it’s impossible for any game to take action without violating ones privacy.
As much as i want cheaters to go down, my view is that innocent players shouldn’t be taken down with them, especially if the only evidence is based off assumptions which is very unethical. They are doing the right thing as is banning mercs and cheaters in waves with the solid concrete evidence they have, and will likely have to be more patient with the more sneaky ones.
I will say though, the reason this can be a clever way of tracking cheaters is through fast progression especially in newer accounts. Just a dramatic example, lets say a player started tomorrow and within a week they have obtained paragon, explored necropolis and have 6* r5s and a 7* r3. In cases like that it would be logical to investigate the account as that is a very improbable event for anyone to do legitimately. This is probably what you guys viewed initially and alluded to which i agree with being worthy of investigation.
Anywho thats all i wanted to add, kabam has honestly been doing a great job and get better and better at handling these things, so i trust they will take the best course of action even if its not 100% consistent as thats very tough to make every right call.
Now this isn’t something kabam is actually doing as far as i am aware, but thats all im saying in response to what you suggested, and why it isn’t ethical or reasonable for that matter. Now if we bring it to the extreme like i mentioned in my last example, thats where i can see the concern. This is most likely what you were thinking of, you can correct me if I’m wrong.
If you need further clarity, you say after necro 100% they return to playing below average. I honestly believe this to be a very common thing people really do, because after such an accomplishment of spending strenuous hours into beating the most rewarding and longest content in the game, people are gonna take it easy on other areas in the game and enjoy everything.
Sorry if i dragged this on but maybe you can see my point now, this is as best as i can word it.
1) struggles to make it through stuff like TB EQ every month
2) rips through Necro exploration like an expert player
3) returns to struggling through monthly content again right after that
the most likely explanation is that they're just lacking the motivation to put full effort and attention into their play outside of Necropolis?
Ridiculous.
I definitely agree that the rewards are a motivator. But what it's motivating them to do is cheat.
But if you shared your account
So....
You also keep mentioning the most likely scenario. The most likely scenario is irrelevant solely because there’s endless possibilities as to what could stimulate the change in someones playstyle. Whether they play consistent or inconsistently, ultimately falls on how the player feels, which is not something data can detect.
Let me ask you this. If you were a developer and noticed that a player was playing below average in areas of content like arena, alliance quest, incursions, and monthly event quests, but notice they play exceptionally well when they were in areas like abyss, necropolis, and story mode, and has never cheated before.
Additionally there is another player that is a cheater, but you don’t know that yet. This player plays identical to the other player i mentioned, but the only difference is they passed their phone to a friend to do their necropolis.
Tell me how the cheater would get caught without the other player receiving the same punishment
Also, I think I am talking about a more significant difference in play quality than you appear to be talking about. There is a huge difference between quality, but sloppy play by someone who is just not paying as much attention and someone who is simply unable to make it through EQ/SQ or needs to spend massively to do so, but magically is able to get through necro like a pro.
I mean how many times do ppl talk about a nerf in revive rates and get angry when people respond with "git gud" or "skill issue". If as many people as you seem to be implying just play well below their true skill level in most content, the entire argument seems to be made moot. These people should actually just play better so they won't need to spend as much on revives since you're saying they should actually be able to do so.
No, I'm back to my point that it is much more likely that these people are just not good and relying on others to help them through Necropolis and the scenario you are describing are outliers.