you continue to regurgitate the same response without reading or addressing what people have stated in the thread. Honestly anyone who posted in this thread and is trying to discuss this topic is fully aware of what the mods have said in this post.
Since you like to keep commenting, maybe you can explain how a "enhanced bleed" means a reduction in resistance ?
The node doesn't say " A Players resistance to bleed is reduced by 40%"
Care to explain what a base bleed is, seeing as enhanced attack nodes are also increasing the bleed damage. Also why is this this the only resistance that applies to base bleed only ?
we have enhanced armor, Enhanced Crit, Enhanced Crit damage. You telling me mechanics like crit resistence, armor, block proficiency, block penetration, armor penetration all are applied to the base values of each ?
if your response is going to be "because the mods have said that how it is working" then please refrain from responding unless you are going to add any value to the discussion.
I am regurgitating the same answers because you are regurgitating the same questions. Base bleed has been described multiple times, but you keep asking for it to be repeated without any new questions, doign this adds nothing of value to the discussion
Here it is again, plus more...
Base bleed (champion bleed damage (+/*) champion buffs) Since bleed damage is based on attack power then enhanced attack nodes apply to that, because it is applied to the champion, not the bleed directly....(note in your quoted post you did not ask about that.
enhanced bleed is base bleed * node percentage
Now that we know the 2 phrases we can look at how the damage is applied,
I get that the wording is poor, but the wording matters less than the intent of the developers. Enhanced bleed existed before OR but was harder see how it interacted because champs were either completely immune or had small resistances that meant you could not get to 0 and they probably didnt want to go through to rename and re describe the node. Should they, most assuredly, but they have already described the interaction as it is intended.
actually i have responded to the post with arguments on what i believe should be happening etc as well as my reasons why and then bumped the post for someone at kabam to address the points raised by everyone in the thread since their post. If you actually read the post I made originally in response to the mods you would of seen this.
You talk about intent, so why is it that this node affects bleed resistence of champions but the other nodes i mentioned don't affect things like crit resistence, physical resistence etc? Seems to be a lack of consistency in game design. The enhanced bleed, (and other enhanced nodes) are there to inflate a certain mechanic which is dependent on another. So in this case Bleed damage is usually affected by attack, if they wanted a stronger bleed then increasing attack would be only way to achieve this without the enhanced bleed node which would result in extremely strong hitting champions.
Also there is only 1 other champ i can think of (correct me if i'm wrong) that reduces bleed damage (All others reduce duration of bleeds), which is beast. According to someone in the thread earlier on his bleed damage reduction is working fine. So one champions reduction in bleed damage is working as described and the other isn't ?
I don't run coagulate but some who do have said it reduces all the bleed damage by the % mentioned and not just base bleed. Someone who does have this mastery if they can test and confirm 100% on this would be great .
actually i have responded to the post with arguments on what i believe should be happening etc as well as my reasons why and then bumped the post for someone at kabam to address the points raised by everyone in the thread since their post. If you actually read the post I made originally in response to the mods you would of seen this.
You talk about intent, so why is it that this node affects bleed resistence of champions but the other nodes i mentioned don't affect things like crit resistence, physical resistence etc? Seems to be a lack of consistency in game design. The enhanced bleed, (and other enhanced nodes) are there to inflate a certain mechanic which is dependent on another. So in this case Bleed damage is usually affected by attack, if they wanted a stronger bleed then increasing attack would be only way to achieve this without the enhanced bleed node which would result in extremely strong hitting champions.
Also there is only 1 other champ i can think of (correct me if i'm wrong) that reduces bleed damage (All others reduce duration of bleeds), which is beast. According to someone in the thread earlier on his bleed damage reduction is working fine. So one champions reduction in bleed damage is working as described and the other isn't ?
I don't run coagulate but some who do have said it reduces all the bleed damage by the % mentioned and not just base bleed. Someone who does have this mastery if they can test and confirm 100% on this would be great .
1) I replied to a comment, not all your comments, I create a reply based on every comment you ever made. That is not how a normal conversation works. 2) You need to clarify this
"You talk about intent, so why is it that this node affects bleed resistence of champions but the other nodes i mentioned don't affect things like crit resistence, physical resistence etc?"
it is not clear. my best guess you are just repeating the same question I answered in the first part with the attack node buff where the attack node affects the character, not the activated abilities of a character.
3) Yes enhanced nodes inflate certain abilities, but the way they do it depends on the node. Some go node -> character -> ability (enhanced attack) some go character -> node -> ability, some go character -> ability -> node
4) I think you are correct with the 1 other champ part, but any champ can also get coagulate.
5) this entire thread is about it reducing only base, it is an old thread coming out the month OR was released so it is probable that those people are wrong, seeing how people are still pointing out this does not work like that.
1) you seem to pick and choose what you wish to address and skate over the other things. Point in case I mentioned Beast bleed damage reduction is unaffected as one user reported, which is not addressed in your response why Beast is not affected in the same way as OR.
2) enhanced crit rate enhanced crit damage enhanced armor up
these do not ignore the relevant resistances. e.g. enhanced crit damage node the total crit damage is affected by physical resistance and armor. So in this case the resistances are not being applied to the base damage but the whole damage (as one would expect) so I will repeat this is inconsistent with how this enhanced bleed node is working for OR when compared to other resistances in the game.
3)Its the mechanic which denotes how it is applied . Any node which affects stats like attack or health are applied straight away so basically static . Any thing which affects things that are dynamic are calculated at the point they trigger. As i have stated before ,they went and looked at it and found that the order in which the things happens for this node in the programming code means OR reduction applies before the full bleed damage is calculated and have come back and said that his reduction only applies to base bleed. Which i will say again is a cop out
4) So how would you say coagulate interacts with this node ? 30% reduction on the total bleed or just the base bleed ?
5) This entire thread is regarding OR 90% resistance to bleed affects not applying on enhanced bleed nodes. His ability clearly says he reduces bleed damage by 90% which in this interaction is not true. The reason why people are mentioning this more is because he is now in the basic pool so more people have him when compared to release.
I will say again the node enhances the bleed damage not reduces a champions resistance, OR ability is to reduce bleed damage. By it not applying to the enhanced bleed and only the base bleed means its not working as described.
1) you seem to pick and choose what you wish to address and skate over the other things. Point in case I mentioned Beast bleed damage reduction is unaffected as one user reported, which is not addressed in your response why Beast is not affected in the same way as OR.
2) enhanced crit rate enhanced crit damage enhanced armor up
these do not ignore the relevant resistances. e.g. enhanced crit damage node the total crit damage is affected by physical resistance and armor. So in this case the resistances are not being applied to the base damage but the whole damage (as one would expect) so I will repeat this is inconsistent with how this enhanced bleed node is working for OR when compared to other resistances in the game.
3)Its the mechanic which denotes how it is applied . Any node which affects stats like attack or health are applied straight away so basically static . Any thing which affects things that are dynamic are calculated at the point they trigger. As i have stated before ,they went and looked at it and found that the order in which the things happens for this node in the programming code means OR reduction applies before the full bleed damage is calculated and have come back and said that his reduction only applies to base bleed. Which i will say again is a cop out
4) So how would you say coagulate interacts with this node ? 30% reduction on the total bleed or just the base bleed ?
5) This entire thread is regarding OR 90% resistance to bleed affects not applying on enhanced bleed nodes. His ability clearly says he reduces bleed damage by 90% which in this interaction is not true. The reason why people are mentioning this more is because he is now in the basic pool so more people have him when compared to release.
I will say again the node enhances the bleed damage not reduces a champions resistance, OR ability is to reduce bleed damage. By it not applying to the enhanced bleed and only the base bleed means its not working as described.
1) yes, I skipped beast because I could not speak to them, but I looked it up. Beast cannot get 100% resistance. It is hard to see where it would be accurate to say that he does or does not.
2) consistancy is not a requirement, and your next item points out why that is the case.
3) being a cop out is an opinion, and you have a right to your opinions, but not your own facts.
4)/5) I have never said how you think it should work is illogical based on the descriptions, I stated that they should go back and rename/redescribe the node. You do not like this for some reason. You seem determined to change the mechanic from how they claim they want it to work, to how you want it to work.
1) well his ability is to reduce bleed potency (damage) and duration by 65%. So its pretty easy to see if the damage reduction is being applied by looking at the tick damage and working it out.
2) it pretty dam important when it comes to mechanics of the game. things should work as described.
3) it is but its perfectly justifiable based on their response and then coming back with this "base bleed" response as the reasoning. Which has never been mentioned prior to this or is mentioned in the spotlight info, which is pretty critical information considering how common this node is in things like AQ and AW and end game content.
4)You seem to not consider the long term implications of things like this. This node isn't and has never been a resistance reducing node. It enhances bleed damage. We have mechanics in the game which perfectly describe when resistances/mechanics are reduced e.g. node which reduce block proficiency until you can no longer block. I said before coagulate doesn't appear to be affected nor does beasts ability therefore its not a case of its working the same across the board and it seems to only affect OR bleed reduction. So what would you change the node description to? because its not exactly working in a consistent way with all the mechanics that deal with bleed damage reduction.
Also his whole design was to take very little bleed damage and bleeding him would actually benefit him more then the damage you would get from the bleed. Also using him in scenarios where there was a bleed such as biohazard or 100% bleed nodes would maximize his damage and burst potential. If they made him 100% resistant to the damage it would be OP which is why i guess they went with 90% reduction. He was essentially designed as an option for bleed paths/nodes etc. Chances are in future content they may add enhanced bleed and poison nodes to biohazard nodes, which will with the current workings make OR a terrible choice for these nodes/paths. Even now people run OR for those bleed paths/nodes in AW which if it stays as is makes him a terrible choice for all those enhanced bleed nodes as you will need pots to heal back up every time.
You seem content with their response on the issue, well I'm not and as i have said so many times this is not working as described. There has never been any concept of base attribute reducing only mechanics. Its not specified anywhere in his champion spotlight under developer notes etc
Passive
Omega Red’s mutant physiology renders him immune to the effects of Poisons and reduces the damage of Bleeds by 90%. Tentacles Hits reduce 100% of damage inflicted by enemy abilities that deal passive damage when they are struck. Developer Note: The Tentacles reduce damage received from On-Struck defensive abilities and will put a stop to the damage from Killmonger’s Reverberation and Korg’s Rock Hard Thorns"
Death Field
While Omega Red is Bleeding, he emits the Death Field. The Death Field causes Death Spores on nearby opponents to Passively Degenerate them, dealing 43 damage per second for each Death Spore on them. The Death Field is not affected by Ability Accuracy reduction. While the Death Field is active, the limit for Death Spores on the opponent increases to 30. Developer Note: Omega Red will brutally punish any Champion brave enough to inflict Bleed, what runs through Omega’s veins should stay in there.
taken from the champion info page. No mention of this "only applies to base bleed" anywhere or of the interaction with enhanced bleed nodes if that was the intention.
So if this stays as it is I would say this a nerf to the champion.
1) well his ability is to reduce bleed potency (damage) and duration by 65%. So its pretty easy to see if the damage reduction is being applied by looking at the tick damage and working it out.
2) it pretty dam important when it comes to mechanics of the game. things should work as described.
3) it is but its perfectly justifiable based on their response and then coming back with this "base bleed" response as the reasoning. Which has never been mentioned prior to this or is mentioned in the spotlight info, which is pretty critical information considering how common this node is in things like AQ and AW and end game content.
4)You seem to not consider the long term implications of things like this. This node isn't and has never been a resistance reducing node. It enhances bleed damage. We have mechanics in the game which perfectly describe when resistances/mechanics are reduced e.g. node which reduce block proficiency until you can no longer block. I said before coagulate doesn't appear to be affected nor does beasts ability therefore its not a case of its working the same across the board and it seems to only affect OR bleed reduction. So what would you change the node description to? because its not exactly working in a consistent way with all the mechanics that deal with bleed damage reduction.
Also his whole design was to take very little bleed damage and bleeding him would actually benefit him more then the damage you would get from the bleed. Also using him in scenarios where there was a bleed such as biohazard or 100% bleed nodes would maximize his damage and burst potential. If they made him 100% resistant to the damage it would be OP which is why i guess they went with 90% reduction. He was essentially designed as an option for bleed paths/nodes etc. Chances are in future content they may add enhanced bleed and poison nodes to biohazard nodes, which will with the current workings make OR a terrible choice for these nodes/paths. Even now people run OR for those bleed paths/nodes in AW which if it stays as is makes him a terrible choice for all those enhanced bleed nodes as you will need pots to heal back up every time.
You seem content with their response on the issue, well I'm not and as i have said so many times this is not working as described. There has never been any concept of base attribute reducing only mechanics. Its not specified anywhere in his champion spotlight under developer notes etc
Passive
Omega Red’s mutant physiology renders him immune to the effects of Poisons and reduces the damage of Bleeds by 90%. Tentacles Hits reduce 100% of damage inflicted by enemy abilities that deal passive damage when they are struck. Developer Note: The Tentacles reduce damage received from On-Struck defensive abilities and will put a stop to the damage from Killmonger’s Reverberation and Korg’s Rock Hard Thorns"
Death Field
While Omega Red is Bleeding, he emits the Death Field. The Death Field causes Death Spores on nearby opponents to Passively Degenerate them, dealing 43 damage per second for each Death Spore on them. The Death Field is not affected by Ability Accuracy reduction. While the Death Field is active, the limit for Death Spores on the opponent increases to 30. Developer Note: Omega Red will brutally punish any Champion brave enough to inflict Bleed, what runs through Omega’s veins should stay in there.
taken from the champion info page. No mention of this "only applies to base bleed" anywhere or of the interaction with enhanced bleed nodes if that was the intention.
So if this stays as it is I would say this a nerf to the champion.
Agreed my friend. So next time whenever a new champ with similar description "reducing X% from bleed/poison/degen" we need to ask them "is that only applies to base damage?".
Why does OR's 90% bleed reduction ability doesn't work as Hulk Ragnarok's Face Me ability? Pretty sure Hulknarok's Face Me ability works in total. By that I mean, even when the defender has its attack boosted, Face Me will reduce the damage of the modified passive damage. For example, when he is against an awaken Dormammu that has an increased attack due to a node, Face Me ability will regenerate 70% of damage taken from Dormammu's boosted passive degen damage.
Hey there, as we mentioned before, we looked into this topic when it was first reported and the interaction between Bleed resistance and nodes was working correctly and the way it had always worked, both with Omega Red and other Champions like Beast. For those who would like to see it work a different way, we will pass along everyone's feedback from here to the rest of the team. As a reminder to everyone, make sure to keep your comments focused on the topic of discussion, not on your fellow Summoners.
Comments
Here it is again, plus more...
Base bleed (champion bleed damage (+/*) champion buffs) Since bleed damage is based on attack power then enhanced attack nodes apply to that, because it is applied to the champion, not the bleed directly....(note in your quoted post you did not ask about that.
enhanced bleed is base bleed * node percentage
Now that we know the 2 phrases we can look at how the damage is applied,
(Base bleed - (base bleed *reduction%)) + enhanced bleed damage
I get that the wording is poor, but the wording matters less than the intent of the developers. Enhanced bleed existed before OR but was harder see how it interacted because champs were either completely immune or had small resistances that meant you could not get to 0 and they probably didnt want to go through to rename and re describe the node. Should they, most assuredly, but they have already described the interaction as it is intended.
You talk about intent, so why is it that this node affects bleed resistence of champions but the other nodes i mentioned don't affect things like crit resistence, physical resistence etc?
Seems to be a lack of consistency in game design.
The enhanced bleed, (and other enhanced nodes) are there to inflate a certain mechanic which is dependent on another. So in this case Bleed damage is usually affected by attack, if they wanted a stronger bleed then increasing attack would be only way to achieve this without the enhanced bleed node which would result in extremely strong hitting champions.
Also there is only 1 other champ i can think of (correct me if i'm wrong) that reduces bleed damage (All others reduce duration of bleeds), which is beast. According to someone in the thread earlier on his bleed damage reduction is working fine. So one champions reduction in bleed damage is working as described and the other isn't ?
I don't run coagulate but some who do have said it reduces all the bleed damage by the % mentioned and not just base bleed. Someone who does have this mastery if they can test and confirm 100% on this would be great .
2) You need to clarify this
"You talk about intent, so why is it that this node affects bleed resistence of champions but the other nodes i mentioned don't affect things like crit resistence, physical resistence etc?"
it is not clear. my best guess you are just repeating the same question I answered in the first part with the attack node buff where the attack node affects the character, not the activated abilities of a character.
3) Yes enhanced nodes inflate certain abilities, but the way they do it depends on the node. Some go node -> character -> ability (enhanced attack) some go character -> node -> ability, some go character -> ability -> node
4) I think you are correct with the 1 other champ part, but any champ can also get coagulate.
5) this entire thread is about it reducing only base, it is an old thread coming out the month OR was released so it is probable that those people are wrong, seeing how people are still pointing out this does not work like that.
2) enhanced crit rate
enhanced crit damage
enhanced armor up
these do not ignore the relevant resistances. e.g. enhanced crit damage node the total crit damage is affected by physical resistance and armor. So in this case the resistances are not being applied to the base damage but the whole damage (as one would expect) so I will repeat this is inconsistent with how this enhanced bleed node is working for OR when compared to other resistances in the game.
3)Its the mechanic which denotes how it is applied . Any node which affects stats like attack or health are applied straight away so basically static . Any thing which affects things that are dynamic are calculated at the point they trigger. As i have stated before ,they went and looked at it and found that the order in which the things happens for this node in the programming code means OR reduction applies before the full bleed damage is calculated and have come back and said that his reduction only applies to base bleed. Which i will say again is a cop out
4) So how would you say coagulate interacts with this node ? 30% reduction on the total bleed or just the base bleed ?
5) This entire thread is regarding OR 90% resistance to bleed affects not applying on enhanced bleed nodes. His ability clearly says he reduces bleed damage by 90% which in this interaction is not true. The reason why people are mentioning this more is because he is now in the basic pool so more people have him when compared to release.
I will say again the node enhances the bleed damage not reduces a champions resistance, OR ability is to reduce bleed damage. By it not applying to the enhanced bleed and only the base bleed means its not working as described.
2) consistancy is not a requirement, and your next item points out why that is the case.
3) being a cop out is an opinion, and you have a right to your opinions, but not your own facts.
4)/5) I have never said how you think it should work is illogical based on the descriptions, I stated that they should go back and rename/redescribe the node. You do not like this for some reason. You seem determined to change the mechanic from how they claim they want it to work, to how you want it to work.
2) it pretty dam important when it comes to mechanics of the game. things should work as described.
3) it is but its perfectly justifiable based on their response and then coming back with this "base bleed" response as the reasoning. Which has never been mentioned prior to this or is mentioned in the spotlight info, which is pretty critical information considering how common this node is in things like AQ and AW and end game content.
4)You seem to not consider the long term implications of things like this. This node isn't and has never been a resistance reducing node. It enhances bleed damage. We have mechanics in the game which perfectly describe when resistances/mechanics are reduced e.g. node which reduce block proficiency until you can no longer block.
I said before coagulate doesn't appear to be affected nor does beasts ability therefore its not a case of its working the same across the board and it seems to only affect OR bleed reduction. So what would you change the node description to? because its not exactly working in a consistent way with all the mechanics that deal with bleed damage reduction.
Also his whole design was to take very little bleed damage and bleeding him would actually benefit him more then the damage you would get from the bleed. Also using him in scenarios where there was a bleed such as biohazard or 100% bleed nodes would maximize his damage and burst potential. If they made him 100% resistant to the damage it would be OP which is why i guess they went with 90% reduction. He was essentially designed as an option for bleed paths/nodes etc.
Chances are in future content they may add enhanced bleed and poison nodes to biohazard nodes, which will with the current workings make OR a terrible choice for these nodes/paths.
Even now people run OR for those bleed paths/nodes in AW which if it stays as is makes him a terrible choice for all those enhanced bleed nodes as you will need pots to heal back up every time.
You seem content with their response on the issue, well I'm not and as i have said so many times this is not working as described. There has never been any concept of base attribute reducing only mechanics. Its not specified anywhere in his champion spotlight under developer notes etc taken from the champion info page. No mention of this "only applies to base bleed" anywhere or of the interaction with enhanced bleed nodes if that was the intention.
So if this stays as it is I would say this a nerf to the champion.
So if this stays as it is I would say this a nerf to the champion.
Agreed my friend. So next time whenever a new champ with similar description "reducing X% from bleed/poison/degen" we need to ask them "is that only applies to base damage?".
Why does OR's 90% bleed reduction ability doesn't work as Hulk Ragnarok's Face Me ability?
Pretty sure Hulknarok's Face Me ability works in total. By that I mean, even when the defender has its attack boosted, Face Me will reduce the damage of the modified passive damage.
For example, when he is against an awaken Dormammu that has an increased attack due to a node, Face Me ability will regenerate 70% of damage taken from Dormammu's boosted passive degen damage.