How does True Damage work with negative armor rating?

It is a bit of a technical question, but I hope I'll receive an answer.

The new Captain Marvel can regularly Armor Break, reducing armor rating. As people know, this can go into the negative, which means you deal increased damage.

The energy beams of Captain Marvel deal True Damage. True Damage ignores armor and resistances or in other words, treats as if armor rating and resistances are zero.

So if True Damage ignores armor, will you lose the benefit of the negative armor rating from the Armor Breaks e.g. thanks to the True Damage you would deal less damage? Or does True Damage only ignores positive armor ratings?

I hope a fellow summoner or a mod could answer this question, or forward this question to the game team.
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Comments

  • EvisceratorEviscerator Posts: 60
    Corvus can do extra damage with enough armor breaks. He has true damage as well. I'm sure captain marvel works the same way
  • Colonaut123Colonaut123 Posts: 723

    Corvus can do extra damage with enough armor breaks. He has true damage as well. I'm sure captain marvel works the same way

    If that's true, Kabam should clarify that somewhere. True Damage and Direct Damage are used interchangeably and sometimes not fully explained.
  • will-o-wispwill-o-wisp Posts: 5,661
    I don't think it can go to the negative values. This was changed after 12.0
  • Colonaut123Colonaut123 Posts: 723

    I don't think it can go to the negative values. This was changed after 12.0

    I'm fairly certain armor rating can go in the negative. That wasn't changed.
  • EvisceratorEviscerator Posts: 60

    I don't think it can go to the negative values. This was changed after 12.0

    Yes it can go negative, 12.0 added diminishing returns
  • Colonaut123Colonaut123 Posts: 723

    I don't think it can go to the negative values. This was changed after 12.0

    Yes it can go negative, 12.0 added diminishing returns
    Indeed. Currently, negative armor rating gives a damage boost that is equal to the damage reduction if it would have been positive.

    The formula is:

    Damage Modifier = AR / (AR + 1500 + 5 * CR) * 100%

    With AR being armor rating and CR the challenge rating of the opponent.


    Against a 4* 5/50 with CR = 100 and AR = 2000 this is:

    Damage Modifier = 2000 / (2000 + 1500 + 5 *100) * 100% = 50%

    If the armor rating is positive, the damage would be reduced by 50%. If the armor rating is negative, the damage is increased by 50%.

    But if you would double the amount of armor rating, the modifier does not become 100%:

    Damage Modifier = 4000 / (4000 + 1500 + 5 * 100) * 100% = 66.67%

    I think players underestimate the potency of armor break, as it can provide almost as much increased damage as a fury.
  • MagrailothosMagrailothos Posts: 1,586
    edited March 16
    I agree with @Colonaut123 and @Eviscerator. There's a common held belief that negative armour doesn't exist any more, post-12.0; and the evidence shows that actually it does.

    All it takes is a fight against one of the zero-armour champions (BPCW, IF) with an armour break champion to prove it: https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/99365/i-think-that-negative-armour-is-real

  • zeezee57zeezee57 Posts: 1,084
    That's an interesting question. When I use Corvus while his crits are up my damage remains the same whether they have multiple armor ups or multiple armor breaks. I would think if true damage was affected by negative armor that an opponent with say 5 armor breaks would take more damage than one with 5 armor ups active. I've never payed close attention to the difference on his first light attack (non crit) but I've not noticed any difference in the crits themselves.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 13,917
    Perhaps @DNA3000 could expand on the subject.
  • Frivolousz21Frivolousz21 Posts: 227
    zeezee57 said:

    That's an interesting question. When I use Corvus while his crits are up my damage remains the same whether they have multiple armor ups or multiple armor breaks. I would think if true damage was affected by negative armor that an opponent with say 5 armor breaks would take more damage than one with 5 armor ups active. I've never payed close attention to the difference on his first light attack (non crit) but I've not noticed any difference in the crits themselves.

    It probably has no effect until it goes negative.

    No matter how positive it is. It should have no effect.


    I'm assuming physical resistance does affect CGs damage.


  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 13,917
    Ignoring negative Armor is a double-negative to begin with. You can't Ignore -10 Armor. That would mean you would add Armor. What the issue is from my understanding is there is now less Armor to Ignore, hence decreased effectiveness. It won't surpass 0.
  • DaphboyDaphboy Posts: 95
    Use Corvus against a champ like Howard the duck, red skull, or war machine and you’ll see his damage increase significantly when they are broken. Typically I’ll do MLM combos to conserve charges and do most dmg. Against skull and duck I always parry then hit for the full 5 because the damage is insane.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 13,917
    It's also why Level 4 of PS only works with HB sometimes. He has more Armor to Ignore.
  • King_GarfKing_Garf Posts: 25
    On a similar note, there’s a very interesting interaction between True Strike and the breakthrough node. When I use my km and activate true strike, the breakthrough node takes no effect for both into the negative and when positive. Say for example I have 50 armor breaks with the breakthrough node on the opponent and my km is hitting like a truck. If I have true strike, all of that damage is gone and it’s back to normal damage.
  • zeezee57zeezee57 Posts: 1,084
    Daphboy said:

    Use Corvus against a champ like Howard the duck, red skull, or war machine and you’ll see his damage increase significantly when they are broken. Typically I’ll do MLM combos to conserve charges and do most dmg. Against skull and duck I always parry then hit for the full 5 because the damage is insane.

    I've used him against both quite a few times and never saw a significant jump in damage output. Any chance you'd be able to grab a couple screenshots of the difference? Quite curious to see for myself
  • HaminHamin Posts: 1,598
    edited March 17
    12.0 removed negative armor.

    Edit: nevermind... It was DR.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 13,917
    Yepper. Flat Rate.
  • MagrailothosMagrailothos Posts: 1,586

    It can't go into the negative. That's what caused the issues with IF and Pure Skill. You can't ignore negative X Armor.

    Grounded, please:
    (1)Take Daredevil Netflix into a fight against Iron Fist
    (2) Break his armour (which, as you know, starts at zero)
    (3) Observe what happens to the damage DDNF causes.
    (4) Come up with an explanation other than "it seems that armour can still go below zero".
  • MagrailothosMagrailothos Posts: 1,586
    edited March 17
    Also, @Colonaut123, @GroundedWisdom, @will-o-wisp:

    Found this in Heimdall's spotlight:

    Heimdall enters The Contest August 16th at 10AM PDT...


    Special 1: Hofund - Heimdall wields his uru sword Hofund with powerful sweeping blows, combining his natural strength with enchantments woven into the blade by Odin himself.

    • 100% chance to Armor Break the Opponent once for each Fury Buff more than Armor Up Buff currently active on Heimdall. These Armor Breaks reduce Armor by 105 and last for 10 seconds.

    *** Developer Note: Heimdall’s Armor Breaks won’t grant him additional Damage while his True Strike is active, as it’s ignoring his Opponent’s Armor (positive or negative), however they’re still very useful in certain matchups clearing Armor effects from the Opponent.


    It seems the developers still think armour can go negative. It also seems that (they think that) True Strike ignores all armour, so doesn't benefit from Armour Break.

    But hey, what does the game design team know? Probably let's just go on a half-remembered, article-of-faith-announcement by a forum moderator that they were planning to remove negative armour back in 12.0. Plans never change, and as we all know, the mods are never wrong. Let's just keep saying there's no such thing as negative armour...
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 13,917
    You think this is the first time we've had the conversation about how you can't go past 0 value in this system? Ok then.
  • MagrailothosMagrailothos Posts: 1,586

    You think this is the first time we've had the conversation about how you can't go past 0 value in this system? Ok then.

    No, we've had it before. It's just you're continuing to ignore the evidence that doesn't fit with your pre-conceived ideas.

    I remember the 12.0 announcement. I just think that they announced something that wasn't then put into practice.

    The evidence for that, and the OP's question are right there in Heimdall's spotlight. But hey, you just go on denying it.

    Here's a suggestion (again): don't refute negative armour again before you've taken an armour Break champion against Iron Fist. Just once, to see what happens.

    I'll just be over here, holding my breath...
  • Frivolousz21Frivolousz21 Posts: 227
    So if I take Medusa versus IF and armor shatter her damage wont increase?
  • Frivolousz21Frivolousz21 Posts: 227
    Where is an easily accessible iron fist
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 13,917

    You think this is the first time we've had the conversation about how you can't go past 0 value in this system? Ok then.

    No, we've had it before. It's just you're continuing to ignore the evidence that doesn't fit with your pre-conceived ideas.

    I remember the 12.0 announcement. I just think that they announced something that wasn't then put into practice.

    The evidence for that, and the OP's question are right there in Heimdall's spotlight. But hey, you just go on denying it.

    Here's a suggestion (again): don't refute negative armour again before you've taken an armour Break champion against Iron Fist. Just once, to see what happens.

    I'll just be over here, holding my breath...
    So.....conspiracy then? K.
  • MagrailothosMagrailothos Posts: 1,586
    @GroundedWisdom

    Please try to be less patronising. No-one suggested any conspiracy except you. Simple incompetence is a far better explanation.

    I don't know if you remember this, but a long time ago, I answered somebody's question about Guillotine's (poorly worded) signature ability. You disagreed, and explained that it worked differently from the way that I understood it to.

    I had sufficient humility to accept the possibility I was wrong. So - rather than just arguing based on my own ego - I went away and tried out your suggestion by taking Guilly against Winter Soldier. You were proved to be right, and so I came back and posted to that effect; accepting that I had been under a misconception.

    I had enough respect for someone else's perspective to look into the possibility I might be wrong. Please do me the same courtesy.
  • Frivolousz21Frivolousz21 Posts: 227
    Just fought Iron fist in chapter 2.1 if the master level EQ.

    No nodes.

    I used Netflix Daredevil.

    No teammates. Only brought DD.

    My five star Netflix Dardevil is 1/25.

    Anyways.

    Daredevil did the following medium crit damage:


    No armor breaks: 797
    One armor break: 970
    Two armor breaks: 1170-1190
    Three armor breaks: 1410

    So if there isn't negative armor how is that possible?

  • Duke_SilverDuke_Silver Posts: 847
    Wait why are people fighting against IF? I thought the issues was that his constant armor breaks he placed with his sig were messed up.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 13,917
    That WAS the issue I was talking about. Not sure why people are fighting against him. Lol. The issue was about Ignore Armor going into the negative. It can't. I used the example of IF because he doesn't hit as hard as he used to because there's less Armor to Ignore. Same example I gave with PS. You can't Ignore negative Armor, so it Maxes out at Level 3/4. Obviously, if you have a Champ with Attack Rating and other mechanics besides Ignore Armor, they're going to inflict Damage. In the case of IF, he no longer does what he used to. No idea how we got into fighting against him. Lol.
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