If you keep that description, PLEASE explain to me how Flare at the very least does not trigger Face Me. It's a cowardly passive effect which causes damage over time. It shouldn't matter whether you 'intended' it to trigger Face Me or not (as was officially started by Miike as the reasoning behind Bane not doing it). The description clearly indicates the parameters for Face Me.
Is it Passive? Yes. --- If your reply is that it's not Passive, please then explain to me how it can be avoided/canceled.
Buffs can be nullifed by effects that are explicitly stated to nullify buffs. Passive effects are effects that do not obey those rules: they are exceptions, which is why the developers are trying (and not always consistently succeeding) to make a text distinction between "Buffs" and "Passive effects."
However that doesn't mean all effects in the game must either be Buffs or Passives. There are other kinds of effects that are not buffs, not debuffs, and not passives. Something that is not tagged a buff, not tagged a debuff, and not tagged a passive would not trigger Face Me, because Face Me explicitly triggers on passive effects. Without the passive tag, nothing would happen. Things like Flare are probably not tagged as passive effects.
Flare's description states:
The Opponent gains +300% Attack, but Degenerates 100% of their Max Health over 60 seconds. The strength of the Degeneration is affected by Class Relationships.
It does not state that Flare applies a passive degeneration effect. It simply states the opponent degenerates 100% of their health over time. You cannot assume that an effect that is not a buff or debuff must be a passive.
Well if you want to get technical, Gulk’s Face me triggers against Starburst and it doesn’t state it’s a passive effect either.
Even if I don't want to get technical, that probably means that Starburst is a passive effect, even though the text description doesn't state that it is. All I said was that you cannot assume that an effect must be passive just because it doesn't state it is a buff or debuff. This doesn't contradict the fact that you still can't make that assumption.
I was simply pointing out a fact that Starburst doesn’t list itself as a passive effect, just like actual degen, or life transfer, flare, or bane. Kabam forces people to make assumptions. If you know Starburst (a degen triggered by a node and cannot he shrugged off) triggers Face Me, what reasonable person wouldn’t make the same conclusion about flare, degen, life transfer, or bane? The fact that they all cause degen, are triggered by nodes, as well as cannot be shrugged off, should make any person think the same interaction will happen with Face Me. Especially since Kabam (to my knowledge) has ever directly addressed it. They all have the same characteristics as passive DoT effects.
I don’t really have a dog in this race one way or another, but Kabam has a very poor structure in that the player has to spend energy and time testing something out that seems like it should work but doesn’t.
If you keep that description, PLEASE explain to me how Flare at the very least does not trigger Face Me. It's a cowardly passive effect which causes damage over time. It shouldn't matter whether you 'intended' it to trigger Face Me or not (as was officially started by Miike as the reasoning behind Bane not doing it). The description clearly indicates the parameters for Face Me.
Is it Passive? Yes. --- If your reply is that it's not Passive, please then explain to me how it can be avoided/canceled.
Buffs can be nullifed by effects that are explicitly stated to nullify buffs. Passive effects are effects that do not obey those rules: they are exceptions, which is why the developers are trying (and not always consistently succeeding) to make a text distinction between "Buffs" and "Passive effects."
However that doesn't mean all effects in the game must either be Buffs or Passives. There are other kinds of effects that are not buffs, not debuffs, and not passives. Something that is not tagged a buff, not tagged a debuff, and not tagged a passive would not trigger Face Me, because Face Me explicitly triggers on passive effects. Without the passive tag, nothing would happen. Things like Flare are probably not tagged as passive effects.
Flare's description states:
The Opponent gains +300% Attack, but Degenerates 100% of their Max Health over 60 seconds. The strength of the Degeneration is affected by Class Relationships.
It does not state that Flare applies a passive degeneration effect. It simply states the opponent degenerates 100% of their health over time. You cannot assume that an effect that is not a buff or debuff must be a passive.
It's not an assumption, it's actual definition. Something is active or passive
If you were playing a dictionary, perhaps. But in fact "active" is a word used to colloquially describe non-passive effects. The game itself has no notion of an active effect. The game types effects as buffs, debuffs, passives, or "none" (and a few others).
Buff, Debuff, and Passive are terminology; you can't just say that because Buffs and Debuffs aren't passive effects they must be active effects. The game defines terminology, not a dictionary. Unless you want to find a dictionary that says "passive" means "cannot be nullified."
If you keep that description, PLEASE explain to me how Flare at the very least does not trigger Face Me. It's a cowardly passive effect which causes damage over time. It shouldn't matter whether you 'intended' it to trigger Face Me or not (as was officially started by Miike as the reasoning behind Bane not doing it). The description clearly indicates the parameters for Face Me.
Is it Passive? Yes. --- If your reply is that it's not Passive, please then explain to me how it can be avoided/canceled.
Buffs can be nullifed by effects that are explicitly stated to nullify buffs. Passive effects are effects that do not obey those rules: they are exceptions, which is why the developers are trying (and not always consistently succeeding) to make a text distinction between "Buffs" and "Passive effects."
However that doesn't mean all effects in the game must either be Buffs or Passives. There are other kinds of effects that are not buffs, not debuffs, and not passives. Something that is not tagged a buff, not tagged a debuff, and not tagged a passive would not trigger Face Me, because Face Me explicitly triggers on passive effects. Without the passive tag, nothing would happen. Things like Flare are probably not tagged as passive effects.
Flare's description states:
The Opponent gains +300% Attack, but Degenerates 100% of their Max Health over 60 seconds. The strength of the Degeneration is affected by Class Relationships.
It does not state that Flare applies a passive degeneration effect. It simply states the opponent degenerates 100% of their health over time. You cannot assume that an effect that is not a buff or debuff must be a passive.
Well if you want to get technical, Gulk’s Face me triggers against Starburst and it doesn’t state it’s a passive effect either.
Even if I don't want to get technical, that probably means that Starburst is a passive effect, even though the text description doesn't state that it is. All I said was that you cannot assume that an effect must be passive just because it doesn't state it is a buff or debuff. This doesn't contradict the fact that you still can't make that assumption.
I was simply pointing out a fact that Starburst doesn’t list itself as a passive effect, just like actual degen, or life transfer, flare, or bane. Kabam forces people to make assumptions. If you know Starburst (a degen triggered by a node and cannot he shrugged off) triggers Face Me, what reasonable person wouldn’t make the same conclusion about flare, degen, life transfer, or bane?
A reasonable person might guess, but a reasonable person shouldn't conclude in that situation.
No sure if it’s been said already or not because in all honesty I didn’t ready every comment but I used my R4 Gulk and his face me activated with the new node is act 6 not sure the nodes exact name ( where if you double dash back you get seven)
If you keep that description, PLEASE explain to me how Flare at the very least does not trigger Face Me. It's a cowardly passive effect which causes damage over time. It shouldn't matter whether you 'intended' it to trigger Face Me or not (as was officially started by Miike as the reasoning behind Bane not doing it). The description clearly indicates the parameters for Face Me.
Is it Passive? Yes. --- If your reply is that it's not Passive, please then explain to me how it can be avoided/canceled.
Buffs can be nullifed by effects that are explicitly stated to nullify buffs. Passive effects are effects that do not obey those rules: they are exceptions, which is why the developers are trying (and not always consistently succeeding) to make a text distinction between "Buffs" and "Passive effects."
However that doesn't mean all effects in the game must either be Buffs or Passives. There are other kinds of effects that are not buffs, not debuffs, and not passives. Something that is not tagged a buff, not tagged a debuff, and not tagged a passive would not trigger Face Me, because Face Me explicitly triggers on passive effects. Without the passive tag, nothing would happen. Things like Flare are probably not tagged as passive effects.
Flare's description states:
The Opponent gains +300% Attack, but Degenerates 100% of their Max Health over 60 seconds. The strength of the Degeneration is affected by Class Relationships.
It does not state that Flare applies a passive degeneration effect. It simply states the opponent degenerates 100% of their health over time. You cannot assume that an effect that is not a buff or debuff must be a passive.
Well if you want to get technical, Gulk’s Face me triggers against Starburst and it doesn’t state it’s a passive effect either.
Even if I don't want to get technical, that probably means that Starburst is a passive effect, even though the text description doesn't state that it is. All I said was that you cannot assume that an effect must be passive just because it doesn't state it is a buff or debuff. This doesn't contradict the fact that you still can't make that assumption.
I was simply pointing out a fact that Starburst doesn’t list itself as a passive effect, just like actual degen, or life transfer, flare, or bane. Kabam forces people to make assumptions. If you know Starburst (a degen triggered by a node and cannot he shrugged off) triggers Face Me, what reasonable person wouldn’t make the same conclusion about flare, degen, life transfer, or bane?
A reasonable person might guess, but a reasonable person shouldn't conclude in that situation.
If you keep that description, PLEASE explain to me how Flare at the very least does not trigger Face Me. It's a cowardly passive effect which causes damage over time. It shouldn't matter whether you 'intended' it to trigger Face Me or not (as was officially started by Miike as the reasoning behind Bane not doing it). The description clearly indicates the parameters for Face Me.
Is it Passive? Yes. --- If your reply is that it's not Passive, please then explain to me how it can be avoided/canceled.
Buffs can be nullifed by effects that are explicitly stated to nullify buffs. Passive effects are effects that do not obey those rules: they are exceptions, which is why the developers are trying (and not always consistently succeeding) to make a text distinction between "Buffs" and "Passive effects."
However that doesn't mean all effects in the game must either be Buffs or Passives. There are other kinds of effects that are not buffs, not debuffs, and not passives. Something that is not tagged a buff, not tagged a debuff, and not tagged a passive would not trigger Face Me, because Face Me explicitly triggers on passive effects. Without the passive tag, nothing would happen. Things like Flare are probably not tagged as passive effects.
Flare's description states:
The Opponent gains +300% Attack, but Degenerates 100% of their Max Health over 60 seconds. The strength of the Degeneration is affected by Class Relationships.
It does not state that Flare applies a passive degeneration effect. It simply states the opponent degenerates 100% of their health over time. You cannot assume that an effect that is not a buff or debuff must be a passive.
Well if you want to get technical, Gulk’s Face me triggers against Starburst and it doesn’t state it’s a passive effect either.
Even if I don't want to get technical, that probably means that Starburst is a passive effect, even though the text description doesn't state that it is. All I said was that you cannot assume that an effect must be passive just because it doesn't state it is a buff or debuff. This doesn't contradict the fact that you still can't make that assumption.
I was simply pointing out a fact that Starburst doesn’t list itself as a passive effect, just like actual degen, or life transfer, flare, or bane. Kabam forces people to make assumptions. If you know Starburst (a degen triggered by a node and cannot he shrugged off) triggers Face Me, what reasonable person wouldn’t make the same conclusion about flare, degen, life transfer, or bane?
A reasonable person might guess, but a reasonable person shouldn't conclude in that situation.
A reasonable person *has* to guess.
If you want to argue that the text descriptions and documentation in the game need a lot of work, you'll have to find someone else to argue with. I've been on that particular soap box since basically forever. But that's completely independent from the fact that when the game actually states something in an internally consistent fashion, such as when they specify something to not be buff, debuff, or passive, and it does in fact not follow the buff, debuff, or passive rules, that shouldn't be Webstered to be somehow incorrect.
No sure if it’s been said already or not because in all honesty I didn’t ready every comment but I used my R4 Gulk and his face me activated with the new node is act 6 not sure the nodes exact name ( where if you double dash back you get seven)
That's the No Retreat global in Act 6.1.1. This is confirmed to be a passive degen effect that activates Face Me.
If you keep that description, PLEASE explain to me how Flare at the very least does not trigger Face Me. It's a cowardly passive effect which causes damage over time. It shouldn't matter whether you 'intended' it to trigger Face Me or not (as was officially started by Miike as the reasoning behind Bane not doing it). The description clearly indicates the parameters for Face Me.
Is it Passive? Yes. --- If your reply is that it's not Passive, please then explain to me how it can be avoided/canceled.
Buffs can be nullifed by effects that are explicitly stated to nullify buffs. Passive effects are effects that do not obey those rules: they are exceptions, which is why the developers are trying (and not always consistently succeeding) to make a text distinction between "Buffs" and "Passive effects."
However that doesn't mean all effects in the game must either be Buffs or Passives. There are other kinds of effects that are not buffs, not debuffs, and not passives. Something that is not tagged a buff, not tagged a debuff, and not tagged a passive would not trigger Face Me, because Face Me explicitly triggers on passive effects. Without the passive tag, nothing would happen. Things like Flare are probably not tagged as passive effects.
Flare's description states:
The Opponent gains +300% Attack, but Degenerates 100% of their Max Health over 60 seconds. The strength of the Degeneration is affected by Class Relationships.
It does not state that Flare applies a passive degeneration effect. It simply states the opponent degenerates 100% of their health over time. You cannot assume that an effect that is not a buff or debuff must be a passive.
It's not an assumption, it's actual definition. Something is active or passive
If you were playing a dictionary, perhaps. But in fact "active" is a word used to colloquially describe non-passive effects. The game itself has no notion of an active effect. The game types effects as buffs, debuffs, passives, or "none" (and a few others).
Buff, Debuff, and Passive are terminology; you can't just say that because Buffs and Debuffs aren't passive effects they must be active effects. The game defines terminology, not a dictionary. Unless you want to find a dictionary that says "passive" means "cannot be nullified."
If you keep that description, PLEASE explain to me how Flare at the very least does not trigger Face Me. It's a cowardly passive effect which causes damage over time. It shouldn't matter whether you 'intended' it to trigger Face Me or not (as was officially started by Miike as the reasoning behind Bane not doing it). The description clearly indicates the parameters for Face Me.
Is it Passive? Yes. --- If your reply is that it's not Passive, please then explain to me how it can be avoided/canceled.
Buffs can be nullifed by effects that are explicitly stated to nullify buffs. Passive effects are effects that do not obey those rules: they are exceptions, which is why the developers are trying (and not always consistently succeeding) to make a text distinction between "Buffs" and "Passive effects."
However that doesn't mean all effects in the game must either be Buffs or Passives. There are other kinds of effects that are not buffs, not debuffs, and not passives. Something that is not tagged a buff, not tagged a debuff, and not tagged a passive would not trigger Face Me, because Face Me explicitly triggers on passive effects. Without the passive tag, nothing would happen. Things like Flare are probably not tagged as passive effects.
Flare's description states:
The Opponent gains +300% Attack, but Degenerates 100% of their Max Health over 60 seconds. The strength of the Degeneration is affected by Class Relationships.
It does not state that Flare applies a passive degeneration effect. It simply states the opponent degenerates 100% of their health over time. You cannot assume that an effect that is not a buff or debuff must be a passive.
Well if you want to get technical, Gulk’s Face me triggers against Starburst and it doesn’t state it’s a passive effect either.
Even if I don't want to get technical, that probably means that Starburst is a passive effect, even though the text description doesn't state that it is. All I said was that you cannot assume that an effect must be passive just because it doesn't state it is a buff or debuff. This doesn't contradict the fact that you still can't make that assumption.
I was simply pointing out a fact that Starburst doesn’t list itself as a passive effect, just like actual degen, or life transfer, flare, or bane. Kabam forces people to make assumptions. If you know Starburst (a degen triggered by a node and cannot he shrugged off) triggers Face Me, what reasonable person wouldn’t make the same conclusion about flare, degen, life transfer, or bane?
A reasonable person might guess, but a reasonable person shouldn't conclude in that situation.
A reasonable person *has* to guess.
If you want to argue that the text descriptions and documentation in the game need a lot of work, you'll have to find someone else to argue with. I've been on that particular soap box since basically forever. But that's completely independent from the fact that when the game actually states something in an internally consistent fashion, such as when they specify something to not be buff, debuff, or passive, and it does in fact not follow the buff, debuff, or passive rules, that shouldn't be Webstered to be somehow incorrect.
So, how exactly is it defined? Is it not an effect which passively causes damage over time?
Again, I'm not assuming anything. It's not active - it's passive. It's passively effecting your character with a damage over time effect. Just because Kabam didn't tag it with 'Passive' doesn't change that fact. It's no different in application or core principal than Limbo, Starburst, etc...
Can you honestly say without hesitation that it is not an effect which passively causes damage over time?
If you keep that description, PLEASE explain to me how Flare at the very least does not trigger Face Me. It's a cowardly passive effect which causes damage over time. It shouldn't matter whether you 'intended' it to trigger Face Me or not (as was officially started by Miike as the reasoning behind Bane not doing it). The description clearly indicates the parameters for Face Me.
Is it Passive? Yes. --- If your reply is that it's not Passive, please then explain to me how it can be avoided/canceled.
Buffs can be nullifed by effects that are explicitly stated to nullify buffs. Passive effects are effects that do not obey those rules: they are exceptions, which is why the developers are trying (and not always consistently succeeding) to make a text distinction between "Buffs" and "Passive effects."
However that doesn't mean all effects in the game must either be Buffs or Passives. There are other kinds of effects that are not buffs, not debuffs, and not passives. Something that is not tagged a buff, not tagged a debuff, and not tagged a passive would not trigger Face Me, because Face Me explicitly triggers on passive effects. Without the passive tag, nothing would happen. Things like Flare are probably not tagged as passive effects.
Flare's description states:
The Opponent gains +300% Attack, but Degenerates 100% of their Max Health over 60 seconds. The strength of the Degeneration is affected by Class Relationships.
It does not state that Flare applies a passive degeneration effect. It simply states the opponent degenerates 100% of their health over time. You cannot assume that an effect that is not a buff or debuff must be a passive.
It's not an assumption, it's actual definition. Something is active or passive
If you were playing a dictionary, perhaps. But in fact "active" is a word used to colloquially describe non-passive effects. The game itself has no notion of an active effect. The game types effects as buffs, debuffs, passives, or "none" (and a few others).
Buff, Debuff, and Passive are terminology; you can't just say that because Buffs and Debuffs aren't passive effects they must be active effects. The game defines terminology, not a dictionary. Unless you want to find a dictionary that says "passive" means "cannot be nullified."
If you keep that description, PLEASE explain to me how Flare at the very least does not trigger Face Me. It's a cowardly passive effect which causes damage over time. It shouldn't matter whether you 'intended' it to trigger Face Me or not (as was officially started by Miike as the reasoning behind Bane not doing it). The description clearly indicates the parameters for Face Me.
Is it Passive? Yes. --- If your reply is that it's not Passive, please then explain to me how it can be avoided/canceled.
Buffs can be nullifed by effects that are explicitly stated to nullify buffs. Passive effects are effects that do not obey those rules: they are exceptions, which is why the developers are trying (and not always consistently succeeding) to make a text distinction between "Buffs" and "Passive effects."
However that doesn't mean all effects in the game must either be Buffs or Passives. There are other kinds of effects that are not buffs, not debuffs, and not passives. Something that is not tagged a buff, not tagged a debuff, and not tagged a passive would not trigger Face Me, because Face Me explicitly triggers on passive effects. Without the passive tag, nothing would happen. Things like Flare are probably not tagged as passive effects.
Flare's description states:
The Opponent gains +300% Attack, but Degenerates 100% of their Max Health over 60 seconds. The strength of the Degeneration is affected by Class Relationships.
It does not state that Flare applies a passive degeneration effect. It simply states the opponent degenerates 100% of their health over time. You cannot assume that an effect that is not a buff or debuff must be a passive.
Well if you want to get technical, Gulk’s Face me triggers against Starburst and it doesn’t state it’s a passive effect either.
Even if I don't want to get technical, that probably means that Starburst is a passive effect, even though the text description doesn't state that it is. All I said was that you cannot assume that an effect must be passive just because it doesn't state it is a buff or debuff. This doesn't contradict the fact that you still can't make that assumption.
I was simply pointing out a fact that Starburst doesn’t list itself as a passive effect, just like actual degen, or life transfer, flare, or bane. Kabam forces people to make assumptions. If you know Starburst (a degen triggered by a node and cannot he shrugged off) triggers Face Me, what reasonable person wouldn’t make the same conclusion about flare, degen, life transfer, or bane?
A reasonable person might guess, but a reasonable person shouldn't conclude in that situation.
A reasonable person *has* to guess.
If you want to argue that the text descriptions and documentation in the game need a lot of work, you'll have to find someone else to argue with. I've been on that particular soap box since basically forever. But that's completely independent from the fact that when the game actually states something in an internally consistent fashion, such as when they specify something to not be buff, debuff, or passive, and it does in fact not follow the buff, debuff, or passive rules, that shouldn't be Webstered to be somehow incorrect.
So, how exactly is it defined? Is it not an effect which passively causes damage over time?
Again, I'm not assuming anything. It's not active - it's passive. It's passively effecting your character with a damage over time effect. Just because Kabam didn't tag it with 'Passive' doesn't change that fact. It's no different in application or core principal than Limbo, Starburst, etc...
Can you honestly say without hesitation that it is not an effect which passively causes damage over time?
I have no idea how you're defining the word "passive" to mean whatever you want it to mean. The only things in the game that can be said to be "passive" are things tagged to be passive. Technically, nothing in the game causes effects "passively" in the colloquial sense of the word. All effects actively produce effects in the colloquial sense of the word. It is only when the word is used to mean something technical in the game - when it is terminology and not just colloquial speaking - that anything can be said to be "passive" in the game.
simple passive is not debuff. debuff is not passive. if its a debuff it wont work. its quite simple in that regard.
as for DOT that is not a debuff I am not sure wat doesn't work. but it would be things that are just that passive. something that is an active ability will not work. what needs some clarification is not gulks ability at all. maybe we need some clarification as to what makes and ability a passive or an active. debuff is simple. indicated by a white circle around the icon. abilities however are open to interpretation as to what is active and what is passive
Again, you're getting caught up in the semantics of debuff vs ability vs whatever else you want to call it.
It's an effect, that's it. That's all. Can you explain why Starburst triggers Face Me but Flare does not?
It's passive, because it can't be avoided or removed, it can't be negated or nullified. It causes damage over time.
It's a passive effect which causes damage over time.
no dude you are not understanding the PASSIVE EFFECT. you are reading EFFECT and stopping there. you have to combine the words PASSIVE EFFECT to understand. it doesn't work on all EFECTS, only on PASSIVE EFFECTS. a debuff is an EFFECT but it is not a PASSIVE EFFECT it is instead an ACTIVE EFFECT. (or just an effect. but not a paasive effect that's for sure. kabam have said before the difference of debuff v passive)
so I can explain why debuffs don't work. I cant explain why starburst works and flare doesn't.
but it will be something in the way in which they are applied as to one being applied actively and one being applied passive. I cant explain this and that is why I said Active and Passive effects and abilities probably needs clarification.
If you keep that description, PLEASE explain to me how Flare at the very least does not trigger Face Me. It's a cowardly passive effect which causes damage over time. It shouldn't matter whether you 'intended' it to trigger Face Me or not (as was officially started by Miike as the reasoning behind Bane not doing it). The description clearly indicates the parameters for Face Me.
Is it Passive? Yes. --- If your reply is that it's not Passive, please then explain to me how it can be avoided/canceled.
Buffs can be nullifed by effects that are explicitly stated to nullify buffs. Passive effects are effects that do not obey those rules: they are exceptions, which is why the developers are trying (and not always consistently succeeding) to make a text distinction between "Buffs" and "Passive effects."
However that doesn't mean all effects in the game must either be Buffs or Passives. There are other kinds of effects that are not buffs, not debuffs, and not passives. Something that is not tagged a buff, not tagged a debuff, and not tagged a passive would not trigger Face Me, because Face Me explicitly triggers on passive effects. Without the passive tag, nothing would happen. Things like Flare are probably not tagged as passive effects.
Flare's description states:
The Opponent gains +300% Attack, but Degenerates 100% of their Max Health over 60 seconds. The strength of the Degeneration is affected by Class Relationships.
It does not state that Flare applies a passive degeneration effect. It simply states the opponent degenerates 100% of their health over time. You cannot assume that an effect that is not a buff or debuff must be a passive.
It's not an assumption, it's actual definition. Something is active or passive
If you were playing a dictionary, perhaps. But in fact "active" is a word used to colloquially describe non-passive effects. The game itself has no notion of an active effect. The game types effects as buffs, debuffs, passives, or "none" (and a few others).
Buff, Debuff, and Passive are terminology; you can't just say that because Buffs and Debuffs aren't passive effects they must be active effects. The game defines terminology, not a dictionary. Unless you want to find a dictionary that says "passive" means "cannot be nullified."
If you keep that description, PLEASE explain to me how Flare at the very least does not trigger Face Me. It's a cowardly passive effect which causes damage over time. It shouldn't matter whether you 'intended' it to trigger Face Me or not (as was officially started by Miike as the reasoning behind Bane not doing it). The description clearly indicates the parameters for Face Me.
Is it Passive? Yes. --- If your reply is that it's not Passive, please then explain to me how it can be avoided/canceled.
Buffs can be nullifed by effects that are explicitly stated to nullify buffs. Passive effects are effects that do not obey those rules: they are exceptions, which is why the developers are trying (and not always consistently succeeding) to make a text distinction between "Buffs" and "Passive effects."
However that doesn't mean all effects in the game must either be Buffs or Passives. There are other kinds of effects that are not buffs, not debuffs, and not passives. Something that is not tagged a buff, not tagged a debuff, and not tagged a passive would not trigger Face Me, because Face Me explicitly triggers on passive effects. Without the passive tag, nothing would happen. Things like Flare are probably not tagged as passive effects.
Flare's description states:
The Opponent gains +300% Attack, but Degenerates 100% of their Max Health over 60 seconds. The strength of the Degeneration is affected by Class Relationships.
It does not state that Flare applies a passive degeneration effect. It simply states the opponent degenerates 100% of their health over time. You cannot assume that an effect that is not a buff or debuff must be a passive.
Well if you want to get technical, Gulk’s Face me triggers against Starburst and it doesn’t state it’s a passive effect either.
Even if I don't want to get technical, that probably means that Starburst is a passive effect, even though the text description doesn't state that it is. All I said was that you cannot assume that an effect must be passive just because it doesn't state it is a buff or debuff. This doesn't contradict the fact that you still can't make that assumption.
I was simply pointing out a fact that Starburst doesn’t list itself as a passive effect, just like actual degen, or life transfer, flare, or bane. Kabam forces people to make assumptions. If you know Starburst (a degen triggered by a node and cannot he shrugged off) triggers Face Me, what reasonable person wouldn’t make the same conclusion about flare, degen, life transfer, or bane?
A reasonable person might guess, but a reasonable person shouldn't conclude in that situation.
A reasonable person *has* to guess.
If you want to argue that the text descriptions and documentation in the game need a lot of work, you'll have to find someone else to argue with. I've been on that particular soap box since basically forever. But that's completely independent from the fact that when the game actually states something in an internally consistent fashion, such as when they specify something to not be buff, debuff, or passive, and it does in fact not follow the buff, debuff, or passive rules, that shouldn't be Webstered to be somehow incorrect.
So, how exactly is it defined? Is it not an effect which passively causes damage over time?
Again, I'm not assuming anything. It's not active - it's passive. It's passively effecting your character with a damage over time effect. Just because Kabam didn't tag it with 'Passive' doesn't change that fact. It's no different in application or core principal than Limbo, Starburst, etc...
Can you honestly say without hesitation that it is not an effect which passively causes damage over time?
I have no idea how you're defining the word "passive" to mean whatever you want it to mean. The only things in the game that can be said to be "passive" are things tagged to be passive. Technically, nothing in the game causes effects "passively" in the colloquial sense of the word. All effects actively produce effects in the colloquial sense of the word. It is only when the word is used to mean something technical in the game - when it is terminology and not just colloquial speaking - that anything can be said to be "passive" in the game.
simple passive is not debuff. debuff is not passive. if its a debuff it wont work. its quite simple in that regard.
as for DOT that is not a debuff I am not sure wat doesn't work. but it would be things that are just that passive. something that is an active ability will not work. what needs some clarification is not gulks ability at all. maybe we need some clarification as to what makes and ability a passive or an active. debuff is simple. indicated by a white circle around the icon. abilities however are open to interpretation as to what is active and what is passive
Again, you're getting caught up in the semantics of debuff vs ability vs whatever else you want to call it.
It's an effect, that's it. That's all. Can you explain why Starburst triggers Face Me but Flare does not?
It's passive, because it can't be avoided or removed, it can't be negated or nullified. It causes damage over time.
It's a passive effect which causes damage over time.
no dude you are not understanding the PASSIVE EFFECT. you are reading EFFECT and stopping there. you have to combine the words PASSIVE EFFECT to understand. it doesn't work on all EFECTS, only on PASSIVE EFFECTS. a debuff is an EFFECT but it is not a PASSIVE EFFECT it is instead an ACTIVE EFFECT. (or just an effect. but not a paasive effect that's for sure. kabam have said before the difference of debuff v passive)
so I can explain why debuffs don't work. I cant explain why starburst works and flare doesn't.
but it will be something in the way in which they are applied as to one being applied actively and one being applied passive. I cant explain this and that is why I said Active and Passive effects and abilities probably needs clarification.
I mean I get where you're both coming from but what I'm speaking to is the root of it and that's where I believe the problem exists and why I am saying the description needs to be re-written.
I'm not inventing a definition of 'active' or 'passive' nor am I trying to Webster something in here...
An active ability/buff/whatever you want to call it is just that. It's something you activate or trigger. Now, these can automatically occur - such as Wolverine's healing or the buff which effect Doctor Voodoo/Venom the Duck at the beginning of a fight, etc... but they can be interacted with. They can be nullified/canceled or blocked completely. Nullify/Hex effects, etc... One way or another you have active ability to trigger/manipulate/control them.
A passive ability/buff/debuff/whatever you want to call it is something which simply exists or triggers as result of a condition. They're also effects which can't be interacted with or nullified/canceled/avoided through game mechanics like Ghost's phase.
Punisher's Physical Resistance or Magik's Limbo are examples of these.
Now, I'll acknowledge that I point out both of these can automatically trigger as the result of a condition being met, which muddles the line between active and passive. But the distinction between them is that Buff/Debuff effects being triggered by conditions - such as most Regeneration, Armour Up, etc... can still be prevented/nullified/interacted with.
They can be manipulated.
Passive effects which trigger due to conditions being met: Limbo, Dormamu's Degen, etc... effectively can't be impacted or manipulated by other game effects save maybe one niche mechanic. They can't be avoided, removed, nullified, etc... this condition remains true whether it is beneficial or detrimental. So with these, you have no active ability to interact with/control/manipulate them (outside of one or two niche mechanics like Face Me or Quake style, but that's effectively true for all things in the game).
Active and Passive. Kabam actively tags these effects. You can clearly see that when you press the pause menu.
However Kabam has seen fit to create what... an undefined category? Effects they don't tag as Buff, debuff, Passive. They merely exist as permanent effects - but there's no rhyme or reason for it other than "We don't want it to interact with this other thing."
It's a shady business practice and they're not following the rules that they set out. Other than the fact that Starburst is tagged as 'Passive' and Flare/Bane/etc are not - there are no differences to how they function. None. There's absolutely no way to avoid them, nullify, cancel, etc... you want to say that Bane or Life Transfer have ways to play around them? Okay, I'm not denying that. You're right. You adapt to deal with them. But just because there are methods to play around them doesn't/shouldn't negate the fact that they fit the criteria for passive effects that Kabam has set forth.
Limbo and Dorm's Degen also have playstyles that can avoid/mitigate them, should they be removed from the things which effect 'Face Me'?
What about Flare? It doesn't even fit that. The play style around Flare is "Kill the opponent before they kill you." Pretty much the exact same mechanic for Starburst. But Kabam has decided to tag one as 'Passive' and leave the other one in their mysteriously undefined category of simple 'Permanent effects'.
I'm not re-writing the rules nor am I trying to re-define things. I'm using their own game mechanics, explanations and definitions to show that their lack of consistence and inability to explain their reasoning for Branding 'A' as one thing but 'B' as another is clearly creating an issue in regards to other game mechanics.
They need to clearly define their abilities and remain consistent with their definitions - not avoid topics like this or give dismissive replies "It's not active, but it's not passive...and that's because we don't want it to interact..."
Until they do that - they either need to re-write the description/parameters for 'Face Me' or make it start working as it is described.
simple passive is not debuff. debuff is not passive. if its a debuff it wont work. its quite simple in that regard.
as for DOT that is not a debuff I am not sure wat doesn't work. but it would be things that are just that passive. something that is an active ability will not work. what needs some clarification is not gulks ability at all. maybe we need some clarification as to what makes and ability a passive or an active. debuff is simple. indicated by a white circle around the icon. abilities however are open to interpretation as to what is active and what is passive
Again, you're getting caught up in the semantics of debuff vs ability vs whatever else you want to call it.
It's an effect, that's it. That's all. Can you explain why Starburst triggers Face Me but Flare does not?
It's passive, because it can't be avoided or removed, it can't be negated or nullified. It causes damage over time.
It's a passive effect which causes damage over time.
a debuff is an EFFECT but it is not a PASSIVE EFFECT it is instead an ACTIVE EFFECT. (or just an effect. but not a paasive effect that's for sure. kabam have said before the difference of debuff v passive)
Actually for all intents and purposes of this game, this is not correct. You can have a debuff or you can have an effect, not both. Bleed caused by virtually every champion is a debuff, just like poison, incinerate, or shock. Things like limbo, Dorm degen, and starburst are effects, not debuffs. The difference is debuffs usually can be interacted with (most commonly seen by AV, CB, KP). Effects are not typically interacted with by normal means (AV, CB, KP) but instead Face Me was designed to interact with them.
The biggest problem facing the game is the ambiguity. Kabam does not solidly define what is what. Why does starburst triggger Face Me, but the other degen nodes don’t? It would be really nice if Kabam would be more thoughtful and clear about game mechanics and interactions.
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I don’t really have a dog in this race one way or another, but Kabam has a very poor structure in that the player has to spend energy and time testing something out that seems like it should work but doesn’t.
Buff, Debuff, and Passive are terminology; you can't just say that because Buffs and Debuffs aren't passive effects they must be active effects. The game defines terminology, not a dictionary. Unless you want to find a dictionary that says "passive" means "cannot be nullified."
Is it not an effect which passively causes damage over time?
Again, I'm not assuming anything. It's not active - it's passive. It's passively effecting your character with a damage over time effect. Just because Kabam didn't tag it with 'Passive' doesn't change that fact. It's no different in application or core principal than Limbo, Starburst, etc...
Can you honestly say without hesitation that it is not an effect which passively causes damage over time?
it doesn't work on all EFECTS, only on PASSIVE EFFECTS.
a debuff is an EFFECT but it is not a PASSIVE EFFECT it is instead an ACTIVE EFFECT. (or just an effect. but not a paasive effect that's for sure. kabam have said before the difference of debuff v passive)
so I can explain why debuffs don't work.
I cant explain why starburst works and flare doesn't.
but it will be something in the way in which they are applied as to one being applied actively and one being applied passive.
I cant explain this and that is why I said Active and Passive effects and abilities probably needs clarification.
I'm not inventing a definition of 'active' or 'passive' nor am I trying to Webster something in here...
An active ability/buff/whatever you want to call it is just that. It's something you activate or trigger.
Now, these can automatically occur - such as Wolverine's healing or the buff which effect Doctor Voodoo/Venom the Duck at the beginning of a fight, etc... but they can be interacted with. They can be nullified/canceled or blocked completely. Nullify/Hex effects, etc... One way or another you have active ability to trigger/manipulate/control them.
A passive ability/buff/debuff/whatever you want to call it is something which simply exists or triggers as result of a condition. They're also effects which can't be interacted with or nullified/canceled/avoided through game mechanics like Ghost's phase.
Punisher's Physical Resistance or Magik's Limbo are examples of these.
Now, I'll acknowledge that I point out both of these can automatically trigger as the result of a condition being met, which muddles the line between active and passive. But the distinction between them is that Buff/Debuff effects being triggered by conditions - such as most Regeneration, Armour Up, etc... can still be prevented/nullified/interacted with.
They can be manipulated.
Passive effects which trigger due to conditions being met: Limbo, Dormamu's Degen, etc... effectively can't be impacted or manipulated by other game effects save maybe one niche mechanic. They can't be avoided, removed, nullified, etc... this condition remains true whether it is beneficial or detrimental. So with these, you have no active ability to interact with/control/manipulate them (outside of one or two niche mechanics like Face Me or Quake style, but that's effectively true for all things in the game).
Active and Passive.
Kabam actively tags these effects. You can clearly see that when you press the pause menu.
However Kabam has seen fit to create what... an undefined category? Effects they don't tag as Buff, debuff, Passive. They merely exist as permanent effects - but there's no rhyme or reason for it other than "We don't want it to interact with this other thing."
It's a shady business practice and they're not following the rules that they set out.
Other than the fact that Starburst is tagged as 'Passive' and Flare/Bane/etc are not - there are no differences to how they function. None. There's absolutely no way to avoid them, nullify, cancel, etc... you want to say that Bane or Life Transfer have ways to play around them? Okay, I'm not denying that. You're right. You adapt to deal with them. But just because there are methods to play around them doesn't/shouldn't negate the fact that they fit the criteria for passive effects that Kabam has set forth.
Limbo and Dorm's Degen also have playstyles that can avoid/mitigate them, should they be removed from the things which effect 'Face Me'?
What about Flare? It doesn't even fit that. The play style around Flare is "Kill the opponent before they kill you."
Pretty much the exact same mechanic for Starburst. But Kabam has decided to tag one as 'Passive' and leave the other one in their mysteriously undefined category of simple 'Permanent effects'.
I'm not re-writing the rules nor am I trying to re-define things. I'm using their own game mechanics, explanations and definitions to show that their lack of consistence and inability to explain their reasoning for Branding 'A' as one thing but 'B' as another is clearly creating an issue in regards to other game mechanics.
They need to clearly define their abilities and remain consistent with their definitions - not avoid topics like this or give dismissive replies "It's not active, but it's not passive...and that's because we don't want it to interact..."
Until they do that - they either need to re-write the description/parameters for 'Face Me' or make it start working as it is described.
The biggest problem facing the game is the ambiguity. Kabam does not solidly define what is what. Why does starburst triggger Face Me, but the other degen nodes don’t? It would be really nice if Kabam would be more thoughtful and clear about game mechanics and interactions.