Why i cant prevent antman glance with a duped gwenpool with a combo meter 50 or more?

Fighter092

I read with 50 hit combo i should reduce 100% defensive ability accuracy

AdiMukh555

Any image or video of the same would be helpful (nodes, act and all)

Kenny292

His glance reduces offensive ability accuracy by 100% and offensive ability accuracy reduction trumps defensive ability accuracy reduction.

DNA3000

Kenny292 said:

His glance reduces offensive ability accuracy by 100% and offensive ability accuracy reduction trumps defensive ability accuracy reduction.

My understanding of the way this works is that this isn't automatically true, but it is true in this specific circumstance due to order of operation. Basically, Gwenpool attacks, the game determines the attack hit the target, the game then tries to calculate whether any of the abilities with ability accuracy triggered, that requires the game to *immediately* calculate what Gwenpool's ability accuracy is, the game factors in the fact the attack glanced, which reduces AA to zero, which means Gwenpool's offensive abilities don't fire, which means Gwenpool doesn't trigger her own ability accuracy reduction effect.

Basically, attack lands first, and then the abilities triggered by the attack trigger and land second. That means the attack landing causes glance to trigger back, and that causes the ability triggers to fail. But I believe there could theoretically be other circumstances in which offensive ability accuracy "overrides" defensive ability accuracy, given the right sequence of operations.

Kenny292

DNA3000 said:

Kenny292 said:

His glance reduces offensive ability accuracy by 100% and offensive ability accuracy reduction trumps defensive ability accuracy reduction.

My understanding of the way this works is that this isn't automatically true, but it is true in this specific circumstance due to order of operation. Basically, Gwenpool attacks, the game determines the attack hit the target, the game then tries to calculate whether any of the abilities with ability accuracy triggered, that requires the game to *immediately* calculate what Gwenpool's ability accuracy is, the game factors in the fact the attack glanced, which reduces AA to zero, which means Gwenpool's offensive abilities don't fire, which means Gwenpool doesn't trigger her own ability accuracy reduction effect.

Basically, attack lands first, and then the abilities triggered by the attack trigger and land second. That means the attack landing causes glance to trigger back, and that causes the ability triggers to fail. But I believe there could theoretically be other circumstances in which offensive ability accuracy "overrides" defensive ability accuracy, given the right sequence of operations.

This makes sense and I’m curious to test out sometime to see if this is true in cases where the sequence of operations would favor defensive ability accuracy reduction over offensive. Several examples come to mind that could be tested against Ant-Man:

1. Duped GP at 50+ non-glanced combo hits
2. Duped AA. Getting his bleeds/poisons/neurotoxins to place are subject to offensive ability accuracy reduction when glanced, but once several neurotoxins are placed depending on AA’s sig level, the neuros should take precedence and prevent glancing.
3. Champs with disorient debuff. Same as AA, subject to accuracy reduction to place them, but should take precedence once placed. This could be hard to truly test because I don’t recall off the top of my head if any of the champs with disorient can stack more than one of them to reach 100% reduction.

Cayko

Defensive ability reduction is always an offensive ability.

What determines is that said buff/debuff is triggered by being hit.

For instance Iron Man's arc overload is a defensive ability if you hit him over the threshold but it's just an ability if he bleeds over it or recoil over it or something.

Stuff preventing IM to trigger arc from bleeding into it is just plain ability reductions.

You won't find a scenario where defensive ability accuracy reduction gets the favour over offensive ability accuracy reduction simply cause defensive ability accuracy reduction is ALWAYS an offensive ability.

VeryCoolUserName

Fighter092 said:

I read with 50 hit combo i should reduce 100% defensive ability accuracy

That is called a silent nerf!!!
For those of you who play long enough.... Do you remember when she was just came?
The sig ability description use to say something like "for every hit that gwenpool stricks she's reducing the ability accuracy by 2%"
Now it's just says "reduce ability accuracy for each hit".
You use to know that after 50 hits she's become a black widow pre 12.0

Kpatrix

Well before gwenpool, pre 12.0, Black Widow would never bypass his glancing. This has always been the case, there were threads about this with Mod responses explaining it. Offensive AAR trumps defensive every time. Antman can’t have his defensive AAR reduced because it’s not a defensive thing, it affects the attacker instead.

Kenny292

Cayko said:

Defensive ability reduction is always an offensive ability.

What determines is that said buff/debuff is triggered by being hit.

For instance Iron Man's arc overload is a defensive ability if you hit him over the threshold but it's just an ability if he bleeds over it or recoil over it or something.

Stuff preventing IM to trigger arc from bleeding into it is just plain ability reductions.

You won't find a scenario where defensive ability accuracy reduction gets the favour over offensive ability accuracy reduction simply cause defensive ability accuracy reduction is ALWAYS an offensive ability.

I get that defensive ability accuracy reduction is an offensive ability, but that doesn’t mean defensive ability accuracy reduction should never come before offensive ability accuracy reduction because offensive ability accuracy reduction should also be considered a defensive ability. Ant-Man’s sig ability says “When attacked” in regards to the chance to glance hits. How is that not a defensive ability? If I’m using AA against him, yes I have lower chances to place bleeds, poisons, convert those poisons to neurotoxins, but I can still get them placed because he doesn’t glance every hit. Once I place those neurotoxins, the ability accuracy reduction associated with them should be in place and come before any concurrent hits, and should reduce the chance for hits to be glanced as glancing should be considered a defensive ability. This is how it should work if there is an order of operations to ability accuracy reduction. I haven’t tested yet to see if it actually works out this way.

Patchie93

VeryCoolUserName said:

Fighter092 said:

I read with 50 hit combo i should reduce 100% defensive ability accuracy

That is called a silent nerf!!!
For those of you who play long enough.... Do you remember when she was just came?
The sig ability description use to say something like "for every hit that gwenpool stricks she's reducing the ability accuracy by 2%"
Now it's just says "reduce ability accuracy for each hit".
You use to know that after 50 hits she's become a black widow pre 12.0

Find me a photo of it saying 2% cause I dont recall it ever stating that. To my understanding it was the player base that calculated it to be approx 2% after tons of testing.

Thesurvivlist

VeryCoolUserName said:

Fighter092 said:

I read with 50 hit combo i should reduce 100% defensive ability accuracy

That is called a silent nerf!!!
For those of you who play long enough.... Do you remember when she was just came?
The sig ability description use to say something like "for every hit that gwenpool stricks she's reducing the ability accuracy by 2%"
Now it's just says "reduce ability accuracy for each hit".
You use to know that after 50 hits she's become a black widow pre 12.0

Nope, it was never explicitly stated that it was 2%

Magrailothos

VeryCoolUserName said:

Fighter092 said:

I read with 50 hit combo i should reduce 100% defensive ability accuracy

That is called a silent nerf!!!
For those of you who play long enough.... Do you remember when she was just came?
The sig ability description use to say something like "for every hit that gwenpool stricks she's reducing the ability accuracy by 2%"
Now it's just says "reduce ability accuracy for each hit".
You use to know that after 50 hits she's become a black widow pre 12.0

No, like @Thesurvivlist says, it never said that on her description.

One of the mods explained it in an old post. My personal recollection is that they explained it as "about 2% per hit. A more common belief is that it is exactly 2% per hit.

It has never said described like this anywhere other than that one comment; which was either in her spotlight or in a Changelog.

Best of luck tracking it down!

Eb0ny-O-M4w

Like others explained, ant-man sig takes priority here. This was confirmed as intended by the MOD's.