AW Item Use points

johara84

I think that this would be a good addition to the point system for AW. It would look very similar to attack bonus. Each bg should start off with an item points number ex. each bg has 150 points (15 items x 10 players). Each time an item is used it deducts 10 points. Its worth it to use items to get the boss kill, but could determine close matches when attack bonus and diversity are also close. Shows the skill of one alliance vs another. 450 points total is less than the standard deviation of aw point differences, but could be another qualifier to distinguish between close alliance wars.

Thoughts?

Lvernon15

Not a fan personally, it would make it so whale alliances have an advantage who buy the offers with lv4 team potions, they heal champs more than the l4 solo and mean you use less items, also if you were to include boosts it would make players use bigger boosts, and overall it would make war more expensive

GroundedWisdom

I can't agree with a system where people purchase Items and get penalized for using them.

johara84

I dont think ive purchaed a team revive in months. In my view it penalizes teams that spend to win vs. teams that don't spend to win.

GroundedWisdom

There's never been a system that penalizes people for spending. In fact, that's one of the reasons Defender Kills were removed. That was a side-effect of them. As it stands, the current system accounts for skill. You take the Node down without dying, you keep the Bonus. You die, you lose it. Anything outside of that makes minimal difference. Aside from the Boss, which you will have to Rev in many cases. Not everyone can one-shot a Boss, especially the higher you go.

johara84

GroundedWisdom said:

There's never been a system that penalizes people for spending. In fact, that's one of the reasons Defender Kills were removed. That was a side-effect of them. As it stands, the current system accounts for skill. You take the Node down without dying, you keep the Bonus. You die, you lose it. Anything outside of that makes minimal difference. Aside from the Boss, which you will have to Rev in many cases. Not everyone can one-shot a Boss, especially the higher you go.

I completely agree with this. To me an item use point qualifier would help offset the defender that gets more than 3 kills, but doesnt actually hurt an alliance that revives 10 times to get by it. I still dont agree that if all things are equal a team that had to use 13 revives to clear the map is equal to the team that did it with 8 revives. Thats where our current system fails.

And really if you were to use my example we are talking about 450 points total. This would be similar to diversity in that it acts more like a tie breaker than an actual win/lose deciding factor.

GroundedWisdom

johara84 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

There's never been a system that penalizes people for spending. In fact, that's one of the reasons Defender Kills were removed. That was a side-effect of them. As it stands, the current system accounts for skill. You take the Node down without dying, you keep the Bonus. You die, you lose it. Anything outside of that makes minimal difference. Aside from the Boss, which you will have to Rev in many cases. Not everyone can one-shot a Boss, especially the higher you go.

I completely agree with this. To me an item use point qualifier would help offset the defender that gets more than 3 kills, but doesnt actually hurt an alliance that revives 10 times to get by it. I still dont agree that if all things are equal a team that had to use 13 revives to clear the map is equal to the team that did it with 8 revives. Thats where our current system fails.

If the Team that cleared it with 13 Revs won over the Team that did it with 8, there's some other factor in the Points that determined the Win.

johara84

Exactly there is...usually its the team that was able to heal up to have a better chance to get the next defender down within 3 kills. Are you saying that someone that did is of equal skill to a team that does it with 1 more attack bonus loss but didn't use any items. It might be just me but to me doing it with a 30% champ in 2 deaths is better than reviving and healing and doing it in 1 kill strictly skill wise. But we might just have to agree to disagree as to what aw measures, or should measure.

GroundedWisdom

Skill in War isn't tied into how many Items you use. It's tied into a number of things. Defense, navigating the Map without dying, strategy, taking down the Boss, clearing BGs, more than just Items. War is a Points comparison. The objective is to earn more Points than the other Ally. Not to use less Items. It's the same as people who pay more attention to Defender Kills and wonder why they lose. If you're not taking stock of the current scoring metric, you're paying attention to a bygone method.

GroundedWisdom

I suppose we will have to agree to disagree. I don't agree with penalizing people for using Items that are available for purchase. We have them so we can use them.

johara84

"Map without dying"

This aspect is the biggest and is absolutely tied to item usage. If you removed items many top tier ally's would no lnger be considered top tier, that to me means not entirely skill based. But i get where you are coming form on penalizing people for items that are available. However, the current system does penalize for two people having a korg on their defense. They have them, but only one can use him.

johara84

And Im not complaining about the current system. This is suggestion forum, to me this adds to war doesnt take away. I honestly like our current scoring system more than the old one, but I think there can always be improvement.

Parodical_Sun1

Why would a player want to shoot themselves in the foot being that with these newer champs are more crazy novelty nerfs (ie unblock-able,indestructible,unstoppable,critical failure, heal block and buff regeneration) and the node buffers, only modify in amping up their abilities, even skilled players are subjected to not clearing BG in AW without, using some health potions and revives depending which champ is on the node that makes them more difficult. Bad idea this has to be a troll post.

johara84

Not at all. Its about balancing the amount of items used and improving skill. Just like clearing aw without dying is the goal, but doesnt always happen. Clearing without using items isnt going to happen all teh time, but limiting it so that spender alliances lose their edge to a better skilled alliance. How is it different than diversity?

SiriusBreak

Truthfully, penalizing a player for being resourceful doesn't seem like the best of ideas. You brought up spender Alliances as if there isn't F2P Alliances that utilize items allocated through grinding. Are they to get bonked on the noggin for playing the game tactfully? I don't see this being beneficial to anyone. We already have enough factors to worry about as is.

Also, you really can't compare this to Diversity. Diversity takes planning and tact. Avoiding item usage occasionally takes for all intents and purposes, luck. Are we to get penalized double for a connection drop now? Seeing as how you lose half your HP when it happens AND an Attack Bonus, just add more insult to injury? How is that skill based?

Running into a defender that has unavoidable damage (i.e. Domino's Critical Failure) and coming out the other side the Victor, but damaged. Are we to lose possible points simply due to a situation that cannot be overridden by skill? Otherwise, you'll be forced to choose between losing some points from item use, or risk losing an attack bonus in another fight.

Let's also note that higher tier champs require more HPs to get back up as the highest Alliance HP only restores 6k health. If the health pots were percentage based instead of a set amount of health, this wouldn't be AS bad. Seeing as how that isn't the case, and the cost of said items in general, I doubt they'd even begin to consider this as a possibility.

I understand the concept being an additional factor to further promote skilled play. However, there's certain aspects that are factors here, which have 0 to do with skill and would in turn punish players through no fault of their own (i.e. connectivity issues, lag, bugs, unavoidable damage). AW Seasons are competitive enough as is. I don't think we need extra stress in the form of item usage penalties.

johara84

Sirius. Great reponse. Thanks for the thought out dialogue. I see your points in the idea being one that could hurt players and alliances without skill being a factor ie: outages. However i do disagree about the argument as it relates to something like unavoidable damage. If theres a domino on the path and you use strategy to plan for that it would be no different here. A high level domino or magik can be combated by Gulk for example, an iceman countered by imiw or corvus. Don't have or want to bring those champs because you arent as skilled with them or dont have them, then youre choosing to skill with another champ over items/attack bonus over item penalty.

I do think if something like this would ever be implemented it would have to be percentage based pots for the reasons you pointed out.

To me this is simply another qualifier in close AWs. Remember nobody liked diversity at first (even now people dont like the idea) but its become a mainstay of AW and is a big factor in winning and losing between close AWs.

Again thanks for constructive dialogue.

LeNoirFaineant

It's not a bad idea, but I can't see Kabam doing anything to discourage item use lol