I am curious at what point did they start collecting data, because didn’t they have an adjustment on him already? Seems kinda silly to do another one
The game constantly records data. The problem with datamining champion performance is that initially the performance of every champion is skewed by the fact that very few players have them, and the players that do tend to skew higher in skill than average. They aren't completely representative of the playerbase. Conversely, they are also less experienced with the champs, and there's less meta-information about the champs floating around.
Over time as more players get and rank champions up and start using them, the breadth of the players who have the champ becomes more representative of the whole playerbase, and the overall performance of the champ tends to rise as both the skilled players get more practice with them, and things like guides and videos and friend-of-a-friend experience filters down to the rest of the players.
Given how crystals work, it could be three to six months or more before you get a rough representative sample of players using a champ, and six months to a year before the champ's full potential actually shows up in the data when the majority of players using them have a better understanding of the champ.
To put this another way, everyone seems to be assuming that the "data" being collected is about the champion, so all it takes is one person playing the champ to show what the champ can do. But the data being collected is not about the champ. The data being collected is actually about *us* and how we do when we have the champ. Champs are balanced not based on how good they are, but on how good we are when we play them. It is the combination of champion and player that is being judged, across all the players playing the game.
Working from your explanation, would it be wrong to suggest if the data began to show the majority of the players using him were clearing content not designed to be cleared so easily, that this adjustment (plus their recent featured crystal for him) could be seen as a bit shady?
I think you're mistaking rebalances with Shulk. That was a very specific bug which was brought to light by a very specific piece of content being "cheesed". Not the same, really. Looking at the data in this case means looking at the numbers, not what content is being cleared. It's not about who used him in End-Game. Had it been something that jeopardized the level of content, it would have been looked at sooner. In this case, you have two Champs, one showing they underperform in the data, the other showing they overly perform. The two extremes highlight each other, and the goal isn't to neutralize all Champs. Only rebalance any noticeable extremities. Thus far, they're proposing exactly what they said they would. They're doing it retroactively in this case because of the overwhelming response about Maw. However, they can't do one and overlook the other. The data isn't just in 6.2, or LoL. It's not just about preventing people from breezing hard content. It's about balance for the health and longevity of the game, and being proactive in stopping issues down the road.
If they aren’t using end-game content in this collection, I would ask then what data points could be they using to make that call on Obsidian that a QA/QC team could have figured out on their own?
I'm saying they're not looking at End-Game exclusively. They're looking at data overall. Champs perform in more than one area in the game.
I am aware of that. In the grand scheme of it all, the comment to be made to kabam would be “show us the data!” Even though there is no way they will.
Calling them out to provide the data isn't going to do much, no. If you're asking if I believe they're just lying about it, I'd say I don't believe that. Not just on blind faith. There's no reason to believe that. Furthermore, the evidence suggests if they were looking at Maw, they were looking at other data. I think what we have is a case of people denying it's true because they don't agree it should be changed.
Not saying they are lying about it, more of the bookworm persona actually wanting to see the data they saw that made them come up with that idea.
Overall, he’s another champ I won’t get until this game dies off (only have the 4* of him)...or if I do, might not be worth ranking because in the end, it’s a waste of time when they have the ability to adjust, for balancing purposes or not.
I dont even have Cull and this is disappointing. I routinely spend to grab a good champ if they seem powerful. I did drop an odin for cull in the last and didnt get him dropped a panther for widow and didnt get him and an odin for arkus and got him. Should I worry that what makes Arkus worthwhile now will be changed in 3 months @Kabam Miike ?
Cull isn't even top ten in the game... Ronin is fun, but garbage. You honestly have to be joking with these. Like what are you even doing
You have no idea what you're talking about. Cull obsidian is definitely a top 10 champ in the game and Ronin is not garbage. Ronin was a champ meant to cater towards skilled people. He is not supposed to be the next Blade. He's supposed to be a great damage dealer with little extra bits utility
Cull isn't even top ten in the game... Ronin is fun, but garbage. You honestly have to be joking with these. Like what are you even doing
You have no idea what you're talking about. Cull obsidian is definitely a top 10 champ in the game and Ronin is not garbage. Ronin was a champ meant to cater towards skilled people. He is not supposed to be the next Blade. He's supposed to be a great damage dealer with little extra bits utility
Just out of curiosity, what tier do you play in if you think cull is a top 10 champ? Seriously, anyone in the endgame will tell you that he’s not a champ they are using in hard content. LOL is so old, but he’s not great in there because of the damage cap. He doesn’t have the survivability for 6.2. What do you think he’s good for? ROL?
Currently have a 6 star Cull Obsidian duped champion that I have obtained by spending over a $1,000 on gambling with the Volcanic Crystals. My reason for doing such thing was due to his amazing damage output. I have recently read a post that is saying his damage output will be reduced and such (what the in-game players would consider a nerf). I do also have him as a 5 star duped champ that I have been ranking up as well. So this is a huge dissapointing factor in regards to my gameplay experience and my wallet . As the reason I went all out for this champ spending over $1,000 on those Volcanic Crystals was because of his damage output. So I am asking for some additional information and what can be done on this subject or what is going to be done.
His damage output will still rival Namor and such in December just not as much overkill (like 400k sp3)
I'm so glad I never took Cull to r5. Started seeing lots of buyers remorse from those who did r5 him only to see that his utility was garbage and he wasn't usable in end game content. That said, I did spent a fair amount on Cavs and used t2a to r4 him long before we knew that nerfs were possible. I def want all that back.
Oh, and Ronin 100000% needs a buff. He's worthless right now. I'd love to see the numbers that say he's performing better then HT.
Currently have a 6 star Cull Obsidian duped champion that I have obtained by spending over a $1,000 on gambling with the Volcanic Crystals. My reason for doing such thing was due to his amazing damage output. I have recently read a post that is saying his damage output will be reduced and such (what the in-game players would consider a nerf). I do also have him as a 5 star duped champ that I have been ranking up as well. So this is a huge dissapointing factor in regards to my gameplay experience and my wallet . As the reason I went all out for this champ spending over $1,000 on those Volcanic Crystals was because of his damage output. So I am asking for some additional information and what can be done on this subject or what is going to be done.
His damage output will still rival Namor and such in December just not as much overkill (like 400k sp3)
Will they be nerfing Namor too then?
Probably I bet they are gonna nerf his signature or some stupid thing like that
I’m not taking any champ beyond 3/45 until the 3 month report comes out from now on. Don’t want to rank a champ the. Be disappointed after that.
It's actually 6 months. They warn you 3 months ahead of time than you have to wait 3 more months to find out the specific changes. Just like with Cull. They didn't tell us the update they're doing in its entirety.
That's because they don't know. They're letting us know ahead of the rework for that transparency everyone keeps asking for.
What did I say about tagging me? Let me remind you that we don't communicate directly.
I don't care about their communication ahead of time. I much rather have them leave champions as it then tuning down champions. I don't even have Cull Obsidian but I still understand how absurd this is.
I dont mind a Cull debuff as long as theres compensation and hes not nerfed to the ground like Strange. Maybe a possible nerf is retaining all his stats but making his challenges harder. That way he requires more skill but retains his output
Here is my initial response to all of this in case people are interested.
I will probably make another video on tomorrow once I have had a bit more time to put my thoughts together.
Big fan bro.
But how do you respond to the fact that Kabam isn't making any money from doing this (potentially losing money)?
But that they do need to keep in mind the balance of the game and is in fact RESPONSIBLE for keeping the game well balanced and to ensure the game's longevity.
Not to fuel the fire but Ronin isn't even that bad. Lol.
no one said he was
but they should have buffed Ronin instead of nerfing Cull
It's not really a situation where they're doing either/or. They're looking at extremities in the data and balancing the imbalances. They're looking at the ways Champs may be falling short or being over-the-top. It's not even a complete evening of the playing field. The goal isn't to make them all equal and interchangeable. Just to adjust anything that is out of place.
Sooo .... take thousands of our dollars ..... give us a product at a far lower quality than what we thought we were paying for ...... so what ur saying is screw player opinions, jus pay up and shut up? Yall ever heard of bait and switch? Y’all desperately need to take an ethics class
I know there will be a lot of questions about Rank Down Tickets and Compensation for changes, and there already are some. As a reminder, we did say that we will approach these on a case by case basis, and will not be able to make any comments on this yet, because we don't know what Cull's balance pass will look like at all yet.
Also, remember that these changes are restricted to Tuning updates, and are will not change any abilities or utility. Our intention is that if you love your Champion now, you should still love them after.
You simply cannot change champs after releasing them to the featured crystal pool and making people pay money to get them. It's exactly like selling someone a car and then replacing the engine to something weaker a month after he bought it!!
Hey Kabam, how about you test these champions before you release them? Novel idea.
Nope, pure scam instead: 1) Get players excited about a character via videos released by Kabam Content Creator Program 2) Players spend tons of money or an insane amount of time grinding for said character 3) Players rank up character and use for 3 months 4) Kabam uses this as essentially a "beta test" where the users had to PAY to be involved in 5) Nerf any character that performs "well" (and by well I mean arbitrarily decide this) 6) Repeat.
Talk about unethical and distasteful.
So now we're going to have to wait 6 months after a champ is released to figure out if we want to rank them up to a high level now? 3 months for you guys to figure out if you're going to nerf them, then another 3 months until we see what that nerf is and how it affects the character. Come on, that's just absurd.
Unintentionally humorous thread...it’s really Bizarro World when the guy asking half-facetiously if the team is finished messing with Cull because of something Prof. Hoff said is actually the sane, fair-minded one.
This is so stupid I already taken steps to distance myself from the game.Doing the bare minimum for grinding,not spending any money and just play AW and AQ for my alliance.If Kabam doesn’t stop doing these things soon I’m going to completely walk away.
This is not a game like Street Fighter or other fighting games where a majority of the characters are already playable and “balance updates” are welcome.Each Champion a person has(well the ones targeted) in MCOC either cost a lot of money or a lot of time to acquire them not including all the money and time to rank them up.
Comments
Overall, he’s another champ I won’t get until this game dies off (only have the 4* of him)...or if I do, might not be worth ranking because in the end, it’s a waste of time when they have the ability to adjust, for balancing purposes or not.
but they should have buffed Ronin instead of nerfing Cull
Oh, and Ronin 100000% needs a buff. He's worthless right now. I'd love to see the numbers that say he's performing better then HT.
I don't care about their communication ahead of time. I much rather have them leave champions as it then tuning down champions. I don't even have Cull Obsidian but I still understand how absurd this is.
But how do you respond to the fact that Kabam isn't making any money from doing this (potentially losing money)?
But that they do need to keep in mind the balance of the game and is in fact RESPONSIBLE for keeping the game well balanced and to ensure the game's longevity.
I'll let it go. I just like him is all. I don't have an issue with him.
"Cull will remain one of the best damage champ in the game".
Read.
Unintentionally humorous thread...it’s really Bizarro World when the guy asking half-facetiously if the team is finished messing with Cull because of something Prof. Hoff said is actually the sane, fair-minded one.
Dr. Zola
This is not a game like Street Fighter or other fighting games where a majority of the characters are already playable and “balance updates” are welcome.Each Champion a person has(well the ones targeted) in MCOC either cost a lot of money or a lot of time to acquire them not including all the money and time to rank them up.
Great... For sure you may create a compensation, but may you give back my cosmic awakening gem so I could use it with my Hyperion or Medusa????
For sure not... And that is exactly why I am so angry with you... You could also nerf Corvus, the main damage star around for months, isn't he??
This is not serious... Nothing serious.
Again, will you return my awakening gem??????