Get a Free 3-6 Star Baron Zemo this Week!

Log in to the Summoner's Market at https://store.playcontestofchampions.com/ and claim the Baron Zemo Selector between 10am PT November 24 and 10am PT on December 1st.

Proven and Below: 3-Star
Conqueror/Uncollected: 4-Star
Cavalier/Thronebreaker: 5-Star
Paragon/Valiant: 6-Star

You can only claim this Baron Zemo one time. The Baron Zemo is delivered as a selector, claiming it will require you to choose your rarity immediately. If you plan to change your Progression level during the Cyber Week event, we suggest you wait until you have made that change before claiming this selector.
Due to issue with the "Not Another Anime Reference" Solo Event, we will be disabling the event for the time being. We will return the event at a future date when the issues have been resolved. We apologize for the inconvenience.
**BANQUET EVENT PSA**
To fully participate in the upcoming Banquet's Alliance Event you will need to be in your alliance for 14 days prior to the event's start date on December 20th. That means, stay in your alliance from December 6th onwards to enjoy all there is to offer in the Banquet event.

Upcoming Cull Obsidian and Ebony Maw Balance Changes

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Comments

  • DshuDshu Posts: 1,503 ★★★★
    GroundedWisdom said:

    KinkyWizard1 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    KinkyWizard1 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Harry_hzy said:

    the 2,3 people like Lormif stop fighting for kabam, maybe you work for kabam, I don’t know. Your guys may still don’t understand why we are upset and disappointed? It is not about one champion nerf, or how to test or the data thing. It is about kabam is trying so hard to screw themselves and destroy this game. Players like me, why we disagree this idea? Because we like this game, we don’t want to see players abandon this game because kabam’s stupid decision. This decision is ridiculers, the one in kabam who made this decision is 100% no business sense. They are trying to make players know all the money we spend is for nothing. Players paid money for THAT CHAMPION KABAM SHOW TO US. Show some respect to the players, listen what we think and what we want.

    Just the opposite actually. They're not trying to destroy it. They're keeping it going. We do understand why people are upset. No one to the best of my knowledge has made the argument that people shouldn't feel a certain way. While I can't speak for anyone else, my point is there are things which are necessary for the health of the game. Those must be resolved. For that matter, there's no guarantee that a Champion will be the same as when you acquire them for the duration of the game, ever. In fact, they make the very clear stipulation that they have the right to modify their product whenever necessary.
    This approach (disclaimer included), in your opinion, is an effective model in terms of inspiring confidence in players to work hard for rewards, spend money on offers for rank up materials, and dedicate countless hours in order to progress by ranking up champs in a game that may suddenly change and undermine your dedication to it at any moment?

    Or is it your stance that it is the player’s fault for trying to progress at all, and being upset when that progress is inhibited to some degree? After all, there is a disclaimer.

    You subscribe to this model in favor of the “health” of the game.

    There’s a major contradiction in here. I’ll let you discover it if you are willing.

    “We do understand why people are upset”

    Intriguing choice of pronoun.
    Yes. We being the people who aren't wielding pitchforks. I'm not going to continually affirm that I don't work for Kabam so that old accusation can die.
    Care to take a shot at answering the question?
    Transparency is about building trust. They've been transparent. People can conjecture that they knew all along and sold the Crystal's anyway, yadda yadda yadda, but as far as we can see, they're letting us know 3 months in advance. Building trust is about honesty. Not bending to our will. Sorry to say, but there are some decisions that will have to come to pass whether people want them to or not.
    You are right. Transparency is about building trust. But looking at this thread as well as the previous threads for shehulk sym supreme and domino to name a few how much trust have they built? How transparent have they really been? To the crystal argument maybe it was just a coincidence that they rereleased the cull crystal just a few days before this announcement but that's pretty similar to the awakening /rankup offers they did right before 12.0. The community has been on edge with how much they trust kabam for some time and nothing they have done recently has helped to build back that trust. Just the opposite since now players have to wonder when the next overhyped champ's rebalancing will come and how badly it will affect them. The cull rebalancing is extremely difficult to understand for many being he has as counters already existing in game as well as his own low block proficiency. Again I agree with game balance but if they want to build trust why not come back into the thread with more information on this balance. All they have said is they will be lowering his damage output which is his only real mechanic as a champ. Give the community some idea of what they are considering for balance. Without his high damage he would be more useless than iron patriot.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 35,504 ★★★★★
    Dshu said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    KinkyWizard1 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    KinkyWizard1 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Harry_hzy said:

    the 2,3 people like Lormif stop fighting for kabam, maybe you work for kabam, I don’t know. Your guys may still don’t understand why we are upset and disappointed? It is not about one champion nerf, or how to test or the data thing. It is about kabam is trying so hard to screw themselves and destroy this game. Players like me, why we disagree this idea? Because we like this game, we don’t want to see players abandon this game because kabam’s stupid decision. This decision is ridiculers, the one in kabam who made this decision is 100% no business sense. They are trying to make players know all the money we spend is for nothing. Players paid money for THAT CHAMPION KABAM SHOW TO US. Show some respect to the players, listen what we think and what we want.

    Just the opposite actually. They're not trying to destroy it. They're keeping it going. We do understand why people are upset. No one to the best of my knowledge has made the argument that people shouldn't feel a certain way. While I can't speak for anyone else, my point is there are things which are necessary for the health of the game. Those must be resolved. For that matter, there's no guarantee that a Champion will be the same as when you acquire them for the duration of the game, ever. In fact, they make the very clear stipulation that they have the right to modify their product whenever necessary.
    This approach (disclaimer included), in your opinion, is an effective model in terms of inspiring confidence in players to work hard for rewards, spend money on offers for rank up materials, and dedicate countless hours in order to progress by ranking up champs in a game that may suddenly change and undermine your dedication to it at any moment?

    Or is it your stance that it is the player’s fault for trying to progress at all, and being upset when that progress is inhibited to some degree? After all, there is a disclaimer.

    You subscribe to this model in favor of the “health” of the game.

    There’s a major contradiction in here. I’ll let you discover it if you are willing.

    “We do understand why people are upset”

    Intriguing choice of pronoun.
    Yes. We being the people who aren't wielding pitchforks. I'm not going to continually affirm that I don't work for Kabam so that old accusation can die.
    Care to take a shot at answering the question?
    Transparency is about building trust. They've been transparent. People can conjecture that they knew all along and sold the Crystal's anyway, yadda yadda yadda, but as far as we can see, they're letting us know 3 months in advance. Building trust is about honesty. Not bending to our will. Sorry to say, but there are some decisions that will have to come to pass whether people want them to or not.
    You are right. Transparency is about building trust. But looking at this thread as well as the previous threads for shehulk sym supreme and domino to name a few how much trust have they built? How transparent have they really been? To the crystal argument maybe it was just a coincidence that they rereleased the cull crystal just a few days before this announcement but that's pretty similar to the awakening /rankup offers they did right before 12.0. The community has been on edge with how much they trust kabam for some time and nothing they have done recently has helped to build back that trust. Just the opposite since now players have to wonder when the next overhyped champ's rebalancing will come and how badly it will affect them. The cull rebalancing is extremely difficult to understand for many being he has as counters already existing in game as well as his own low block proficiency. Again I agree with game balance but if they want to build trust why not come back into the thread with more information on this balance. All they have said is they will be lowering his damage output which is his only real mechanic as a champ. Give the community some idea of what they are considering for balance. Without his high damage he would be more useless than iron patriot.
    They don't know yet most likely because they haven't begun. At least that's what I assume from the response that it will take about 3 months. When the time comes, I'm sure they will let us know.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 35,504 ★★★★★
    Zuro said:

    @GroundedWisdom are you gonna try to counter my argument

    Zuro said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Zuro said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Zuro said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Zuro said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Zuro said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Harry_hzy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Harry_hzy said:

    the 2,3 people like Lormif stop fighting for kabam, maybe you work for kabam, I don’t know. Your guys may still don’t understand why we are upset and disappointed? It is not about one champion nerf, or how to test or the data thing. It is about kabam is trying so hard to screw themselves and destroy this game. Players like me, why we disagree this idea? Because we like this game, we don’t want to see players abandon this game because kabam’s stupid decision. This decision is ridiculers, the one in kabam who made this decision is 100% no business sense. They are trying to make players know all the money we spend is for nothing. Players paid money for THAT CHAMPION KABAM SHOW TO US. Show some respect to the players, listen what we think and what we want.

    Just the opposite actually. They're not trying to destroy it. They're keeping it going. We do understand why people are upset. No one to the best of my knowledge has made the argument that people shouldn't feel a certain way. While I can't speak for anyone else, my point is there are things which are necessary for the health of the game. Those must be resolved. For that matter, there's no guarantee that a Champion will be the same as when you acquire them for the duration of the game, ever. In fact, they make the very clear stipulation that they have the right to modify their product whenever necessary.

    see, you still don’t understand. What is the health game you are keep saying? I think more player want to spend money, then kabam can make money, then maybe they wants to use some profit to develop this game, that is health game. If most players don’t spend money anymore or abandon this game, what is the point of balance or game health
    If they don't resolve problems that will break the game down the road, there isn't anything left to spend on. The health of the game isn't about money.
    Cull won't break the game down the road he would probably last like 2 fight before you have to revive him
    Who's to say what will and will not break the game? Only them. They're the ones with the goals, the data, and the experience on this particular game. I was speaking in the general sense, not necessarily saying he's going to break the game. Having a Champ that does much more Damage than other Top Champs has an effect later on. One that creates much more work for them, and less balance for the rest of us.
    Kabam has still never disclosed what too much damage is because from what I've seen Cull ain't the only Champ who can hit extremely high numbers so what are they even getting at here let alone of his weakness like fisticuffs, limber, bleed, poison, etc.
    Apparently, they have disclosed that too much is what he's doing, and that's a comparative analysis towards what others do. As to whether that's too much total, or too much too fast, I'm unsure.
    There is no way it's too much too fast since there are way more other Champs that can get extremely high numbers way faster than Cull and even in total he is similar to numerous Champs like namor, nick fury, domino, or even hela I wouldnt say he out damages any of them as all of them share similar numbers damage wise
    I mean we can argue ad nauseam that he isn't really that strong, but they obviously have the numbers to prove it, and we know many people Ranked him for the very same reasons, so all evidence points to the data being accurate.
    Those numbers are irrelevant when you put Cull in a realistic situation no way he is destroying Champs in act 6. All they do is analyze the numbers but not the situations that he is in so it's not a fair evaluation
    The numbers aren't irrelevant at all. That's the very gauge they're using. What you're saying is he's not too much because you can't use him for one piece of content. Not at all what this is about. This is about the fact that he's out damaging any other Champ among the Top.
    It's not just one piece of content he is bad at he is bad in most of the variants against certain nodes he is also roadblocked in some of the paths in this EQ and so on so it's not just one piece of content
    Counter what? You're arguing he's bad in areas, and their comment was that his Damage was more than others. They didn't claim he was good at everything.
  • ZuroZuro Posts: 2,446 ★★★★★
    GroundedWisdom said:

    Zuro said:

    @GroundedWisdom are you gonna try to counter my argument

    Zuro said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Zuro said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Zuro said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Zuro said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Zuro said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Harry_hzy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Harry_hzy said:

    the 2,3 people like Lormif stop fighting for kabam, maybe you work for kabam, I don’t know. Your guys may still don’t understand why we are upset and disappointed? It is not about one champion nerf, or how to test or the data thing. It is about kabam is trying so hard to screw themselves and destroy this game. Players like me, why we disagree this idea? Because we like this game, we don’t want to see players abandon this game because kabam’s stupid decision. This decision is ridiculers, the one in kabam who made this decision is 100% no business sense. They are trying to make players know all the money we spend is for nothing. Players paid money for THAT CHAMPION KABAM SHOW TO US. Show some respect to the players, listen what we think and what we want.

    Just the opposite actually. They're not trying to destroy it. They're keeping it going. We do understand why people are upset. No one to the best of my knowledge has made the argument that people shouldn't feel a certain way. While I can't speak for anyone else, my point is there are things which are necessary for the health of the game. Those must be resolved. For that matter, there's no guarantee that a Champion will be the same as when you acquire them for the duration of the game, ever. In fact, they make the very clear stipulation that they have the right to modify their product whenever necessary.

    see, you still don’t understand. What is the health game you are keep saying? I think more player want to spend money, then kabam can make money, then maybe they wants to use some profit to develop this game, that is health game. If most players don’t spend money anymore or abandon this game, what is the point of balance or game health
    If they don't resolve problems that will break the game down the road, there isn't anything left to spend on. The health of the game isn't about money.
    Cull won't break the game down the road he would probably last like 2 fight before you have to revive him
    Who's to say what will and will not break the game? Only them. They're the ones with the goals, the data, and the experience on this particular game. I was speaking in the general sense, not necessarily saying he's going to break the game. Having a Champ that does much more Damage than other Top Champs has an effect later on. One that creates much more work for them, and less balance for the rest of us.
    Kabam has still never disclosed what too much damage is because from what I've seen Cull ain't the only Champ who can hit extremely high numbers so what are they even getting at here let alone of his weakness like fisticuffs, limber, bleed, poison, etc.
    Apparently, they have disclosed that too much is what he's doing, and that's a comparative analysis towards what others do. As to whether that's too much total, or too much too fast, I'm unsure.
    There is no way it's too much too fast since there are way more other Champs that can get extremely high numbers way faster than Cull and even in total he is similar to numerous Champs like namor, nick fury, domino, or even hela I wouldnt say he out damages any of them as all of them share similar numbers damage wise
    I mean we can argue ad nauseam that he isn't really that strong, but they obviously have the numbers to prove it, and we know many people Ranked him for the very same reasons, so all evidence points to the data being accurate.
    Those numbers are irrelevant when you put Cull in a realistic situation no way he is destroying Champs in act 6. All they do is analyze the numbers but not the situations that he is in so it's not a fair evaluation
    The numbers aren't irrelevant at all. That's the very gauge they're using. What you're saying is he's not too much because you can't use him for one piece of content. Not at all what this is about. This is about the fact that he's out damaging any other Champ among the Top.
    It's not just one piece of content he is bad at he is bad in most of the variants against certain nodes he is also roadblocked in some of the paths in this EQ and so on so it's not just one piece of content
    Counter what? You're arguing he's bad in areas, and their comment was that his Damage was more than others. They didn't claim he was good at everything.
    Exactly he is balanced enough you know how rare it is to actually reach his high damage potential due to all these counters
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 35,504 ★★★★★
    Zuro said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Zuro said:

    @GroundedWisdom are you gonna try to counter my argument

    Zuro said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Zuro said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Zuro said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Zuro said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Zuro said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Harry_hzy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Harry_hzy said:

    the 2,3 people like Lormif stop fighting for kabam, maybe you work for kabam, I don’t know. Your guys may still don’t understand why we are upset and disappointed? It is not about one champion nerf, or how to test or the data thing. It is about kabam is trying so hard to screw themselves and destroy this game. Players like me, why we disagree this idea? Because we like this game, we don’t want to see players abandon this game because kabam’s stupid decision. This decision is ridiculers, the one in kabam who made this decision is 100% no business sense. They are trying to make players know all the money we spend is for nothing. Players paid money for THAT CHAMPION KABAM SHOW TO US. Show some respect to the players, listen what we think and what we want.

    Just the opposite actually. They're not trying to destroy it. They're keeping it going. We do understand why people are upset. No one to the best of my knowledge has made the argument that people shouldn't feel a certain way. While I can't speak for anyone else, my point is there are things which are necessary for the health of the game. Those must be resolved. For that matter, there's no guarantee that a Champion will be the same as when you acquire them for the duration of the game, ever. In fact, they make the very clear stipulation that they have the right to modify their product whenever necessary.

    see, you still don’t understand. What is the health game you are keep saying? I think more player want to spend money, then kabam can make money, then maybe they wants to use some profit to develop this game, that is health game. If most players don’t spend money anymore or abandon this game, what is the point of balance or game health
    If they don't resolve problems that will break the game down the road, there isn't anything left to spend on. The health of the game isn't about money.
    Cull won't break the game down the road he would probably last like 2 fight before you have to revive him
    Who's to say what will and will not break the game? Only them. They're the ones with the goals, the data, and the experience on this particular game. I was speaking in the general sense, not necessarily saying he's going to break the game. Having a Champ that does much more Damage than other Top Champs has an effect later on. One that creates much more work for them, and less balance for the rest of us.
    Kabam has still never disclosed what too much damage is because from what I've seen Cull ain't the only Champ who can hit extremely high numbers so what are they even getting at here let alone of his weakness like fisticuffs, limber, bleed, poison, etc.
    Apparently, they have disclosed that too much is what he's doing, and that's a comparative analysis towards what others do. As to whether that's too much total, or too much too fast, I'm unsure.
    There is no way it's too much too fast since there are way more other Champs that can get extremely high numbers way faster than Cull and even in total he is similar to numerous Champs like namor, nick fury, domino, or even hela I wouldnt say he out damages any of them as all of them share similar numbers damage wise
    I mean we can argue ad nauseam that he isn't really that strong, but they obviously have the numbers to prove it, and we know many people Ranked him for the very same reasons, so all evidence points to the data being accurate.
    Those numbers are irrelevant when you put Cull in a realistic situation no way he is destroying Champs in act 6. All they do is analyze the numbers but not the situations that he is in so it's not a fair evaluation
    The numbers aren't irrelevant at all. That's the very gauge they're using. What you're saying is he's not too much because you can't use him for one piece of content. Not at all what this is about. This is about the fact that he's out damaging any other Champ among the Top.
    It's not just one piece of content he is bad at he is bad in most of the variants against certain nodes he is also roadblocked in some of the paths in this EQ and so on so it's not just one piece of content
    Counter what? You're arguing he's bad in areas, and their comment was that his Damage was more than others. They didn't claim he was good at everything.
    Exactly he is balanced enough you know how rare it is to actually reach his high damage potential due to all these counters
    If he was balanced enough, we wouldn't be in this Thread discussing it.
  • SDPSDP Posts: 1,618 ★★★★
    GroundedWisdom said:

    KinkyWizard1 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    KinkyWizard1 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Zuro said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Zuro said:

    @GroundedWisdom are you gonna try to counter my argument

    Zuro said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Zuro said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Zuro said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Zuro said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Zuro said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Harry_hzy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Harry_hzy said:

    the 2,3 people like Lormif stop fighting for kabam, maybe you work for kabam, I don’t know. Your guys may still don’t understand why we are upset and disappointed? It is not about one champion nerf, or how to test or the data thing. It is about kabam is trying so hard to screw themselves and destroy this game. Players like me, why we disagree this idea? Because we like this game, we don’t want to see players abandon this game because kabam’s stupid decision. This decision is ridiculers, the one in kabam who made this decision is 100% no business sense. They are trying to make players know all the money we spend is for nothing. Players paid money for THAT CHAMPION KABAM SHOW TO US. Show some respect to the players, listen what we think and what we want.

    Just the opposite actually. They're not trying to destroy it. They're keeping it going. We do understand why people are upset. No one to the best of my knowledge has made the argument that people shouldn't feel a certain way. While I can't speak for anyone else, my point is there are things which are necessary for the health of the game. Those must be resolved. For that matter, there's no guarantee that a Champion will be the same as when you acquire them for the duration of the game, ever. In fact, they make the very clear stipulation that they have the right to modify their product whenever necessary.

    see, you still don’t understand. What is the health game you are keep saying? I think more player want to spend money, then kabam can make money, then maybe they wants to use some profit to develop this game, that is health game. If most players don’t spend money anymore or abandon this game, what is the point of balance or game health
    If they don't resolve problems that will break the game down the road, there isn't anything left to spend on. The health of the game isn't about money.
    Cull won't break the game down the road he would probably last like 2 fight before you have to revive him
    Who's to say what will and will not break the game? Only them. They're the ones with the goals, the data, and the experience on this particular game. I was speaking in the general sense, not necessarily saying he's going to break the game. Having a Champ that does much more Damage than other Top Champs has an effect later on. One that creates much more work for them, and less balance for the rest of us.
    Kabam has still never disclosed what too much damage is because from what I've seen Cull ain't the only Champ who can hit extremely high numbers so what are they even getting at here let alone of his weakness like fisticuffs, limber, bleed, poison, etc.
    Apparently, they have disclosed that too much is what he's doing, and that's a comparative analysis towards what others do. As to whether that's too much total, or too much too fast, I'm unsure.
    There is no way it's too much too fast since there are way more other Champs that can get extremely high numbers way faster than Cull and even in total he is similar to numerous Champs like namor, nick fury, domino, or even hela I wouldnt say he out damages any of them as all of them share similar numbers damage wise
    I mean we can argue ad nauseam that he isn't really that strong, but they obviously have the numbers to prove it, and we know many people Ranked him for the very same reasons, so all evidence points to the data being accurate.
    Those numbers are irrelevant when you put Cull in a realistic situation no way he is destroying Champs in act 6. All they do is analyze the numbers but not the situations that he is in so it's not a fair evaluation
    The numbers aren't irrelevant at all. That's the very gauge they're using. What you're saying is he's not too much because you can't use him for one piece of content. Not at all what this is about. This is about the fact that he's out damaging any other Champ among the Top.
    It's not just one piece of content he is bad at he is bad in most of the variants against certain nodes he is also roadblocked in some of the paths in this EQ and so on so it's not just one piece of content
    Counter what? You're arguing he's bad in areas, and their comment was that his Damage was more than others. They didn't claim he was good at everything.
    Exactly he is balanced enough you know how rare it is to actually reach his high damage potential due to all these counters
    If he was balanced enough, we wouldn't be in this Thread discussing it.
    Laughable. This shows a serious disregard for logic. It is poorly argued. I promise I do not mean that as an insult. Merely pointing out the blatantly fallacious nature of such an assumption. The reason this thread exists, and the only reason it exists, is because they say he is unbalanced. This does not make it true. The evidence is there.

    People wouldn’t be arguing that the Earth is flat unless it is. People wouldn’t be arguing that vaccines cause autism on various forums unless it did.

    You dabble in some dangerous black and whites. Scary stuff.

    That puts an abrupt end to any further discussion.

    Take care.
    Actually I call it stating the obvious. If Kabam felt he was balanced, they never would have made the Announcement concerning him. This isn't some arbitrary thing they pulled out of their hats. They're not just making frivolous changes. If they say he's doing more than any other higher-end Champ, that's very indicative of the fact that they find that imbalanced.
    Sly attempt at a redo there, but that’s not what you said. You said, quite matter of factly, that we wouldn’t be discussing it on this thread if he was balanced. I implore you to at least try and understand the problems with this statement.

    Why do you presume to know their motivations? It’s absolutely arbitrary. Are you being serious right now? They are the ones who designed the game. Everything is arbitrary.

    Once again, just because they find it unbalanced does not mean that it is. For some reason this needs repeating. This is their business. They are inherently biased. How is this not obvious to you? Truly baffling.

    I’ve played all this content with all these champions. Myself, along with many of the most known players in the community all agree that this is based on flawed data. Thousands upon thousands of hours of gameplay across all modes from elite players.

    Ask yourself a question... And I’m being sincere. Think about it intensely.

    In your life, do you care that what you believe in is true? If so, how exactly do you go about determining what is true and what is not?

    Think about it.
    Redo? Not at all. I said what I said, and I explained where it was coming from.
    I'm not sure what you're talking about when going into existential "true", but I believe what they're saying is true. Yes.
    Well, I’ve played with all of the champions, so I don’t need to believe anything. I know it isn’t true. Can you say that?

    You know what would help? Clarification! What is the criteria for evaluation? What exactly is the data that is being assessed? Is it consistent? Who exactly is processing the data, and when are the conclusions made? At what point does the red flag wave to indicate the need for change? Does the community have some standard with which to gauge these methods? Why not?

    None of these things seem to matter to you. You are satisfied with belief. Unfortunately, I suspect your version of the truth is going to disappoint you greatly at some point in your life. I sure hope not, but good luck.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 35,504 ★★★★★
    KinkyWizard1 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    KinkyWizard1 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    KinkyWizard1 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Zuro said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Zuro said:

    @GroundedWisdom are you gonna try to counter my argument

    Zuro said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Zuro said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Zuro said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Zuro said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Zuro said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Harry_hzy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Harry_hzy said:

    the 2,3 people like Lormif stop fighting for kabam, maybe you work for kabam, I don’t know. Your guys may still don’t understand why we are upset and disappointed? It is not about one champion nerf, or how to test or the data thing. It is about kabam is trying so hard to screw themselves and destroy this game. Players like me, why we disagree this idea? Because we like this game, we don’t want to see players abandon this game because kabam’s stupid decision. This decision is ridiculers, the one in kabam who made this decision is 100% no business sense. They are trying to make players know all the money we spend is for nothing. Players paid money for THAT CHAMPION KABAM SHOW TO US. Show some respect to the players, listen what we think and what we want.

    Just the opposite actually. They're not trying to destroy it. They're keeping it going. We do understand why people are upset. No one to the best of my knowledge has made the argument that people shouldn't feel a certain way. While I can't speak for anyone else, my point is there are things which are necessary for the health of the game. Those must be resolved. For that matter, there's no guarantee that a Champion will be the same as when you acquire them for the duration of the game, ever. In fact, they make the very clear stipulation that they have the right to modify their product whenever necessary.

    see, you still don’t understand. What is the health game you are keep saying? I think more player want to spend money, then kabam can make money, then maybe they wants to use some profit to develop this game, that is health game. If most players don’t spend money anymore or abandon this game, what is the point of balance or game health
    If they don't resolve problems that will break the game down the road, there isn't anything left to spend on. The health of the game isn't about money.
    Cull won't break the game down the road he would probably last like 2 fight before you have to revive him
    Who's to say what will and will not break the game? Only them. They're the ones with the goals, the data, and the experience on this particular game. I was speaking in the general sense, not necessarily saying he's going to break the game. Having a Champ that does much more Damage than other Top Champs has an effect later on. One that creates much more work for them, and less balance for the rest of us.
    Kabam has still never disclosed what too much damage is because from what I've seen Cull ain't the only Champ who can hit extremely high numbers so what are they even getting at here let alone of his weakness like fisticuffs, limber, bleed, poison, etc.
    Apparently, they have disclosed that too much is what he's doing, and that's a comparative analysis towards what others do. As to whether that's too much total, or too much too fast, I'm unsure.
    There is no way it's too much too fast since there are way more other Champs that can get extremely high numbers way faster than Cull and even in total he is similar to numerous Champs like namor, nick fury, domino, or even hela I wouldnt say he out damages any of them as all of them share similar numbers damage wise
    I mean we can argue ad nauseam that he isn't really that strong, but they obviously have the numbers to prove it, and we know many people Ranked him for the very same reasons, so all evidence points to the data being accurate.
    Those numbers are irrelevant when you put Cull in a realistic situation no way he is destroying Champs in act 6. All they do is analyze the numbers but not the situations that he is in so it's not a fair evaluation
    The numbers aren't irrelevant at all. That's the very gauge they're using. What you're saying is he's not too much because you can't use him for one piece of content. Not at all what this is about. This is about the fact that he's out damaging any other Champ among the Top.
    It's not just one piece of content he is bad at he is bad in most of the variants against certain nodes he is also roadblocked in some of the paths in this EQ and so on so it's not just one piece of content
    Counter what? You're arguing he's bad in areas, and their comment was that his Damage was more than others. They didn't claim he was good at everything.
    Exactly he is balanced enough you know how rare it is to actually reach his high damage potential due to all these counters
    If he was balanced enough, we wouldn't be in this Thread discussing it.
    Laughable. This shows a serious disregard for logic. It is poorly argued. I promise I do not mean that as an insult. Merely pointing out the blatantly fallacious nature of such an assumption. The reason this thread exists, and the only reason it exists, is because they say he is unbalanced. This does not make it true. The evidence is there.

    People wouldn’t be arguing that the Earth is flat unless it is. People wouldn’t be arguing that vaccines cause autism on various forums unless it did.

    You dabble in some dangerous black and whites. Scary stuff.

    That puts an abrupt end to any further discussion.

    Take care.
    Actually I call it stating the obvious. If Kabam felt he was balanced, they never would have made the Announcement concerning him. This isn't some arbitrary thing they pulled out of their hats. They're not just making frivolous changes. If they say he's doing more than any other higher-end Champ, that's very indicative of the fact that they find that imbalanced.
    Sly attempt at a redo there, but that’s not what you said. You said, quite matter of factly, that we wouldn’t be discussing it on this thread if he was balanced. I implore you to at least try and understand the problems with this statement.

    Why do you presume to know their motivations? It’s absolutely arbitrary. Are you being serious right now? They are the ones who designed the game. Everything is arbitrary.

    Once again, just because they find it unbalanced does not mean that it is. For some reason this needs repeating. This is their business. They are inherently biased. How is this not obvious to you? Truly baffling.

    I’ve played all this content with all these champions. Myself, along with many of the most known players in the community all agree that this is based on flawed data. Thousands upon thousands of hours of gameplay across all modes from elite players.

    Ask yourself a question... And I’m being sincere. Think about it intensely.

    In your life, do you care that what you believe in is true? If so, how exactly do you go about determining what is true and what is not?

    Think about it.
    Redo? Not at all. I said what I said, and I explained where it was coming from.
    I'm not sure what you're talking about when going into existential "true", but I believe what they're saying is true. Yes.
    Well, I’ve played with all of the champions, so I don’t need to believe anything. I know it isn’t true. Can you say that?

    You know what would help? Clarification! What is the criteria for evaluation? What exactly is the data that is being assessed? Is it consistent? Who exactly is processing the data, and when are the conclusions made? At what point does the red flag wave to indicate the need for change? Does the community have some standard with which to gauge these methods? Why not?

    None of these things seem to matter to you. You are satisfied with belief. Unfortunately, I suspect your version of the truth is going to disappoint you greatly at some point in your life. I sure hope not, but good luck.
    So because you've played with the Champ in your own experience, and your own level of progress, you've determined that the balance THEY are trying to achieve is already present, and their data is either incorrect, or incorrectly being processed.
  • SDPSDP Posts: 1,618 ★★★★
    GroundedWisdom said:

    KinkyWizard1 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    KinkyWizard1 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    KinkyWizard1 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Zuro said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Zuro said:

    @GroundedWisdom are you gonna try to counter my argument

    Zuro said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Zuro said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Zuro said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Zuro said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Zuro said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Harry_hzy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Harry_hzy said:

    the 2,3 people like Lormif stop fighting for kabam, maybe you work for kabam, I don’t know. Your guys may still don’t understand why we are upset and disappointed? It is not about one champion nerf, or how to test or the data thing. It is about kabam is trying so hard to screw themselves and destroy this game. Players like me, why we disagree this idea? Because we like this game, we don’t want to see players abandon this game because kabam’s stupid decision. This decision is ridiculers, the one in kabam who made this decision is 100% no business sense. They are trying to make players know all the money we spend is for nothing. Players paid money for THAT CHAMPION KABAM SHOW TO US. Show some respect to the players, listen what we think and what we want.

    Just the opposite actually. They're not trying to destroy it. They're keeping it going. We do understand why people are upset. No one to the best of my knowledge has made the argument that people shouldn't feel a certain way. While I can't speak for anyone else, my point is there are things which are necessary for the health of the game. Those must be resolved. For that matter, there's no guarantee that a Champion will be the same as when you acquire them for the duration of the game, ever. In fact, they make the very clear stipulation that they have the right to modify their product whenever necessary.

    see, you still don’t understand. What is the health game you are keep saying? I think more player want to spend money, then kabam can make money, then maybe they wants to use some profit to develop this game, that is health game. If most players don’t spend money anymore or abandon this game, what is the point of balance or game health
    If they don't resolve problems that will break the game down the road, there isn't anything left to spend on. The health of the game isn't about money.
    Cull won't break the game down the road he would probably last like 2 fight before you have to revive him
    Who's to say what will and will not break the game? Only them. They're the ones with the goals, the data, and the experience on this particular game. I was speaking in the general sense, not necessarily saying he's going to break the game. Having a Champ that does much more Damage than other Top Champs has an effect later on. One that creates much more work for them, and less balance for the rest of us.
    Kabam has still never disclosed what too much damage is because from what I've seen Cull ain't the only Champ who can hit extremely high numbers so what are they even getting at here let alone of his weakness like fisticuffs, limber, bleed, poison, etc.
    Apparently, they have disclosed that too much is what he's doing, and that's a comparative analysis towards what others do. As to whether that's too much total, or too much too fast, I'm unsure.
    There is no way it's too much too fast since there are way more other Champs that can get extremely high numbers way faster than Cull and even in total he is similar to numerous Champs like namor, nick fury, domino, or even hela I wouldnt say he out damages any of them as all of them share similar numbers damage wise
    I mean we can argue ad nauseam that he isn't really that strong, but they obviously have the numbers to prove it, and we know many people Ranked him for the very same reasons, so all evidence points to the data being accurate.
    Those numbers are irrelevant when you put Cull in a realistic situation no way he is destroying Champs in act 6. All they do is analyze the numbers but not the situations that he is in so it's not a fair evaluation
    The numbers aren't irrelevant at all. That's the very gauge they're using. What you're saying is he's not too much because you can't use him for one piece of content. Not at all what this is about. This is about the fact that he's out damaging any other Champ among the Top.
    It's not just one piece of content he is bad at he is bad in most of the variants against certain nodes he is also roadblocked in some of the paths in this EQ and so on so it's not just one piece of content
    Counter what? You're arguing he's bad in areas, and their comment was that his Damage was more than others. They didn't claim he was good at everything.
    Exactly he is balanced enough you know how rare it is to actually reach his high damage potential due to all these counters
    If he was balanced enough, we wouldn't be in this Thread discussing it.
    Laughable. This shows a serious disregard for logic. It is poorly argued. I promise I do not mean that as an insult. Merely pointing out the blatantly fallacious nature of such an assumption. The reason this thread exists, and the only reason it exists, is because they say he is unbalanced. This does not make it true. The evidence is there.

    People wouldn’t be arguing that the Earth is flat unless it is. People wouldn’t be arguing that vaccines cause autism on various forums unless it did.

    You dabble in some dangerous black and whites. Scary stuff.

    That puts an abrupt end to any further discussion.

    Take care.
    Actually I call it stating the obvious. If Kabam felt he was balanced, they never would have made the Announcement concerning him. This isn't some arbitrary thing they pulled out of their hats. They're not just making frivolous changes. If they say he's doing more than any other higher-end Champ, that's very indicative of the fact that they find that imbalanced.
    Sly attempt at a redo there, but that’s not what you said. You said, quite matter of factly, that we wouldn’t be discussing it on this thread if he was balanced. I implore you to at least try and understand the problems with this statement.

    Why do you presume to know their motivations? It’s absolutely arbitrary. Are you being serious right now? They are the ones who designed the game. Everything is arbitrary.

    Once again, just because they find it unbalanced does not mean that it is. For some reason this needs repeating. This is their business. They are inherently biased. How is this not obvious to you? Truly baffling.

    I’ve played all this content with all these champions. Myself, along with many of the most known players in the community all agree that this is based on flawed data. Thousands upon thousands of hours of gameplay across all modes from elite players.

    Ask yourself a question... And I’m being sincere. Think about it intensely.

    In your life, do you care that what you believe in is true? If so, how exactly do you go about determining what is true and what is not?

    Think about it.
    Redo? Not at all. I said what I said, and I explained where it was coming from.
    I'm not sure what you're talking about when going into existential "true", but I believe what they're saying is true. Yes.
    Well, I’ve played with all of the champions, so I don’t need to believe anything. I know it isn’t true. Can you say that?

    You know what would help? Clarification! What is the criteria for evaluation? What exactly is the data that is being assessed? Is it consistent? Who exactly is processing the data, and when are the conclusions made? At what point does the red flag wave to indicate the need for change? Does the community have some standard with which to gauge these methods? Why not?

    None of these things seem to matter to you. You are satisfied with belief. Unfortunately, I suspect your version of the truth is going to disappoint you greatly at some point in your life. I sure hope not, but good luck.
    So because you've played with the Champ in your own experience, and your own level of progress, you've determined that the balance THEY are trying to achieve is already present, and their data is either incorrect, or incorrectly being processed.
    What is the balance they are trying to achieve exactly? Through what methods and data are they achieving it? Do we get any insight into this?

    Can you answer that? No. You can’t, because this information is not made available to you.

    What I do have to go on is my actual experience with all of this over thousands of hours. Interestingly, thousands of players are finding the same conclusions.

    How is this possible? We’re not arguing against a Cull nerf simply because we have him, and he is a top ten game dominator, because HE ISN’T.

    Man...this sure is fun, but ultimately futile.
  • GhostWriterGhostWriter Posts: 9 ★
    MCOC Team said:

    Summoners,

    The next two Champions to get the rebalance treatment will be Cull Obsidian and Ebony Maw. These balance updates will be limited to the tuning and balancing of a Champion's existing kit, abilities won’t be added or removed.

    Ronin:

    We’ve taken a look at Ronin’s performance and are happy with his both his performance and his abilities. We will not be making any balance changes to Ronin at this time.

    Cull Obsidian:

    After looking at our data across all the game modes we have determined that Cull Obsidian is out damaging every other high-damage Champion in the game. While he does have his limiting factors, once he's fully ramped up he is able to end fights before even high-level Opponents can do any meaningful damage to him.

    The goal of Cull’s rebalance is to make tuning changes that keeps Cull Obsidian as one of the top damage dealers in-game.

    Ebony Maw:

    You said it and we saw it in the data. Although Ebony Maw is a decent Defender, he is underperforming as an Attacker (the designer said something about his Degeneration DPS being just sad and wrong).

    We are looking to boost both his defensive and offensive potential, but with an emphasis on offense.

    Cull Obsidian and Ebony Maw’s balance changes should be live in approximately 3 months.

    You said it and we saw it. Then kindly look into Falcon. I duped that sucker for 3 times and kindly give him a buff which might do some justice. I’ve never played any of the above champs but kindly reconsider your view on Falcon.
  • Justin2524Justin2524 Posts: 1,616 ★★★★
    KinkyWizard1 said:

    If Cull is broken, then buckle your seatbelts, because everything you worked for over the last 5 years is about to be altered, or taken away.

    LOL .. how do you reach that conclusion? Over-reaching much?
  • Justin2524Justin2524 Posts: 1,616 ★★★★
    edited September 2019
    Zuro said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Zuro said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Zuro said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Zuro said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Zuro said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Harry_hzy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Harry_hzy said:

    the 2,3 people like Lormif stop fighting for kabam, maybe you work for kabam, I don’t know. Your guys may still don’t understand why we are upset and disappointed? It is not about one champion nerf, or how to test or the data thing. It is about kabam is trying so hard to screw themselves and destroy this game. Players like me, why we disagree this idea? Because we like this game, we don’t want to see players abandon this game because kabam’s stupid decision. This decision is ridiculers, the one in kabam who made this decision is 100% no business sense. They are trying to make players know all the money we spend is for nothing. Players paid money for THAT CHAMPION KABAM SHOW TO US. Show some respect to the players, listen what we think and what we want.

    Just the opposite actually. They're not trying to destroy it. They're keeping it going. We do understand why people are upset. No one to the best of my knowledge has made the argument that people shouldn't feel a certain way. While I can't speak for anyone else, my point is there are things which are necessary for the health of the game. Those must be resolved. For that matter, there's no guarantee that a Champion will be the same as when you acquire them for the duration of the game, ever. In fact, they make the very clear stipulation that they have the right to modify their product whenever necessary.

    see, you still don’t understand. What is the health game you are keep saying? I think more player want to spend money, then kabam can make money, then maybe they wants to use some profit to develop this game, that is health game. If most players don’t spend money anymore or abandon this game, what is the point of balance or game health
    If they don't resolve problems that will break the game down the road, there isn't anything left to spend on. The health of the game isn't about money.
    Cull won't break the game down the road he would probably last like 2 fight before you have to revive him
    Who's to say what will and will not break the game? Only them. They're the ones with the goals, the data, and the experience on this particular game. I was speaking in the general sense, not necessarily saying he's going to break the game. Having a Champ that does much more Damage than other Top Champs has an effect later on. One that creates much more work for them, and less balance for the rest of us.
    Kabam has still never disclosed what too much damage is because from what I've seen Cull ain't the only Champ who can hit extremely high numbers so what are they even getting at here let alone of his weakness like fisticuffs, limber, bleed, poison, etc.
    Apparently, they have disclosed that too much is what he's doing, and that's a comparative analysis towards what others do. As to whether that's too much total, or too much too fast, I'm unsure.
    There is no way it's too much too fast since there are way more other Champs that can get extremely high numbers way faster than Cull and even in total he is similar to numerous Champs like namor, nick fury, domino, or even hela I wouldnt say he out damages any of them as all of them share similar numbers damage wise
    I mean we can argue ad nauseam that he isn't really that strong, but they obviously have the numbers to prove it, and we know many people Ranked him for the very same reasons, so all evidence points to the data being accurate.
    Those numbers are irrelevant when you put Cull in a realistic situation no way he is destroying Champs in act 6. All they do is analyze the numbers but not the situations that he is in so it's not a fair evaluation
    The numbers aren't irrelevant at all. That's the very gauge they're using. What you're saying is he's not too much because you can't use him for one piece of content. Not at all what this is about. This is about the fact that he's out damaging any other Champ among the Top.
    It's not just one piece of content he is bad at he is bad in most of the variants against certain nodes he is also roadblocked in some of the paths in this EQ and so on so it's not just one piece of content
    Cull is 'bad'? How long have you played this game?
  • SDPSDP Posts: 1,618 ★★★★
    edited September 2019
    Japam12345 said:

    KinkyWizard1 said:

    If Cull is broken, then buckle your seatbelts, because everything you worked for over the last 5 years is about to be altered, or taken away.

    LOL .. how do you reach that conclusion? Over-reaching much?
    Easily, based on what we’ve been presented with. They view Cull as broken and in need of tuning. The actual facts are that there are numerous other champs who put Cull’s ability to clear difficult content to shame. The logical conclusion is that if he is getting altered, so are the champs more powerful than him. I didn’t think this was a radical leap in understanding, but apparently for some it is.
  • Justin2524Justin2524 Posts: 1,616 ★★★★
    KinkyWizard1 said:

    Japam12345 said:

    KinkyWizard1 said:

    If Cull is broken, then buckle your seatbelts, because everything you worked for over the last 5 years is about to be altered, or taken away.

    LOL .. how do you reach that conclusion? Over-reaching much?
    Easily, based on what we’ve been presented with. They view Cull as broken and in need of tuning. The actual facts are that there are numerous other champs who put Cull’s ability to clear difficult content to shame. The logical conclusion is that if he is getting altered, so are the champs more powerful than him. I didn’t think this was a radical leap in understanding, but apparently for some it is.
    Um, no? They're only re-adjusting recent champs going forward. They've said nothing about old champs getting nerfed.
  • Kevo9513Kevo9513 Posts: 356 ★★
    I couldn’t even use my 4* maxed cull in EQ because of the lack of immunities. Yes I’ll rank him up with a couple fights and would need a couple potions but as soon as I get to the bosses... claire straight out nullifies his buffs so no damage. Also bleed? Yea he’s not immune so straight death. Let’s look at vision. Straight merked from the coldsnap.

    Idk what y’all are talking about when you say he outdamages before any meaningful damage is done to him.
  • Justin2524Justin2524 Posts: 1,616 ★★★★
    striker_overlord22 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Harry_hzy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Harry_hzy said:

    the 2,3 people like Lormif stop fighting for kabam, maybe you work for kabam, I don’t know. Your guys may still don’t understand why we are upset and disappointed? It is not about one champion nerf, or how to test or the data thing. It is about kabam is trying so hard to screw themselves and destroy this game. Players like me, why we disagree this idea? Because we like this game, we don’t want to see players abandon this game because kabam’s stupid decision. This decision is ridiculers, the one in kabam who made this decision is 100% no business sense. They are trying to make players know all the money we spend is for nothing. Players paid money for THAT CHAMPION KABAM SHOW TO US. Show some respect to the players, listen what we think and what we want.

    Just the opposite actually. They're not trying to destroy it. They're keeping it going. We do understand why people are upset. No one to the best of my knowledge has made the argument that people shouldn't feel a certain way. While I can't speak for anyone else, my point is there are things which are necessary for the health of the game. Those must be resolved. For that matter, there's no guarantee that a Champion will be the same as when you acquire them for the duration of the game, ever. In fact, they make the very clear stipulation that they have the right to modify their product whenever necessary.

    see, you still don’t understand. What is the health game you are keep saying? I think more player want to spend money, then kabam can make money, then maybe they wants to use some profit to develop this game, that is health game. If most players don’t spend money anymore or abandon this game, what is the point of balance or game health
    If they don't resolve problems that will break the game down the road, there isn't anything left to spend on. The health of the game isn't about money.
    This game is already broken and imbalance as hell, that is why there is top and meme champs right? so what balance are we talking about here. Instead of focusing they time on nerfing champs why didnt they look out on how to fix the millions bugs on this game as it keeps multiplying every updates instead of looking to screw players over
    The game is 'balanced' right now with both good and bad champs. But GOING FORWARD if you keep adding OP champs, it will be more and more out of whack.

    Don't you get it? They're only re-adjusting NEW champs.
  • Justin2524Justin2524 Posts: 1,616 ★★★★
    Kevo9513 said:

    I couldn’t even use my 4* maxed cull in EQ because of the lack of immunities. Yes I’ll rank him up with a couple fights and would need a couple potions but as soon as I get to the bosses... claire straight out nullifies his buffs so no damage. Also bleed? Yea he’s not immune so straight death. Let’s look at vision. Straight merked from the coldsnap.

    Idk what y’all are talking about when you say he outdamages before any meaningful damage is done to him.

    Kabam isn't worried about a 4* Cull bro....
  • Justin2524Justin2524 Posts: 1,616 ★★★★
    edited September 2019
    KinkyWizard1 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    KinkyWizard1 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Harry_hzy said:

    the 2,3 people like Lormif stop fighting for kabam, maybe you work for kabam, I don’t know. Your guys may still don’t understand why we are upset and disappointed? It is not about one champion nerf, or how to test or the data thing. It is about kabam is trying so hard to screw themselves and destroy this game. Players like me, why we disagree this idea? Because we like this game, we don’t want to see players abandon this game because kabam’s stupid decision. This decision is ridiculers, the one in kabam who made this decision is 100% no business sense. They are trying to make players know all the money we spend is for nothing. Players paid money for THAT CHAMPION KABAM SHOW TO US. Show some respect to the players, listen what we think and what we want.

    Just the opposite actually. They're not trying to destroy it. They're keeping it going. We do understand why people are upset. No one to the best of my knowledge has made the argument that people shouldn't feel a certain way. While I can't speak for anyone else, my point is there are things which are necessary for the health of the game. Those must be resolved. For that matter, there's no guarantee that a Champion will be the same as when you acquire them for the duration of the game, ever. In fact, they make the very clear stipulation that they have the right to modify their product whenever necessary.
    This approach (disclaimer included), in your opinion, is an effective model in terms of inspiring confidence in players to work hard for rewards, spend money on offers for rank up materials, and dedicate countless hours in order to progress by ranking up champs in a game that may suddenly change and undermine your dedication to it at any moment?

    Or is it your stance that it is the player’s fault for trying to progress at all, and being upset when that progress is inhibited to some degree? After all, there is a disclaimer.

    You subscribe to this model in favor of the “health” of the game.

    There’s a major contradiction in here. I’ll let you discover it if you are willing.

    “We do understand why people are upset”

    Intriguing choice of pronoun.
    Yes. We being the people who aren't wielding pitchforks. I'm not going to continually affirm that I don't work for Kabam so that old accusation can die.
    Pitchforks, eh? Why do you care if people are upset? Why do you feel compelled to defend these practices?

    I spent $500 on Cull. Did you?

    No.

    So, perhaps you should go sell the righteous, wise man routine somewhere else. This thread is for the opposition. You’ve stated your point. We all get it.
    AND he is still one of the best damage dealer in the game.

    AND he will remain so according to Kabam.

    You spent $500 at a CHANCE at him. You might not even have gotten him. Not everyone who spends $500 got him.

    So you spending $500 really is irrelevant.
  • Justin2524Justin2524 Posts: 1,616 ★★★★
    DrZola said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Harry_hzy said:

    the 2,3 people like Lormif stop fighting for kabam, maybe you work for kabam, I don’t know. Your guys may still don’t understand why we are upset and disappointed? It is not about one champion nerf, or how to test or the data thing. It is about kabam is trying so hard to screw themselves and destroy this game. Players like me, why we disagree this idea? Because we like this game, we don’t want to see players abandon this game because kabam’s stupid decision. This decision is ridiculers, the one in kabam who made this decision is 100% no business sense. They are trying to make players know all the money we spend is for nothing. Players paid money for THAT CHAMPION KABAM SHOW TO US. Show some respect to the players, listen what we think and what we want.

    Just the opposite actually. They're not trying to destroy it. They're keeping it going. We do understand why people are upset. No one to the best of my knowledge has made the argument that people shouldn't feel a certain way. While I can't speak for anyone else, my point is there are things which are necessary for the health of the game. Those must be resolved. For that matter, there's no guarantee that a Champion will be the same as when you acquire them for the duration of the game, ever. In fact, they make the very clear stipulation that they have the right to modify their product whenever necessary.
    I keep hearing this phrase: “health of the game.”

    What exactly does that mean?

    I ask because I believe a rapid hype-to-nerf cycle is far more detrimental to the game than anything Cull Obsidian could ever do.

    Dr. Zola
    Kabam had already covered this.

    Having more and more OP champs meant the game maker has to come up with harder and harder content to catch up.

    The problem with that is people who don't spend enough to get Cull (or newer OP champs) means they're falling further and further behind.

    That's not good for the "health of the game".

    That's not a "balanced" game.

    That's a lopsided game.
  • CapobviousCapobvious Posts: 1 ★
    I just don‘t understand, why you nerf cull, who needs Almost 5 fights to Rank up, has one of the lowest block proficiency in the Game, so without healpots its almost impossible to get even there

    And then there are champs like Ghost, who can easily handle 95% of the fckn game without even Spending a Single Unit, how can this even be possible!!
    Then there‘s Namor, who is immun to almost every mechanic in the game, and does even more dmg then cull, with just one Single SK3 push, no ramp up, just some boosts and suicides:




    This was one SK2!!! With just 2 sk3 uses

    What‘s wrong with you kabam wtf..
  • RoonKhanRoonKhan Posts: 40 ★
    Okay Cull is doing heavy damage then nerf Hela also lol, tbh you won’t be having any community rage if you start playing your own game

  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 35,504 ★★★★★
    KinkyWizard1 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    KinkyWizard1 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    KinkyWizard1 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    KinkyWizard1 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Zuro said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Zuro said:

    @GroundedWisdom are you gonna try to counter my argument

    Zuro said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Zuro said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Zuro said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Zuro said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Zuro said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Harry_hzy said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Harry_hzy said:

    the 2,3 people like Lormif stop fighting for kabam, maybe you work for kabam, I don’t know. Your guys may still don’t understand why we are upset and disappointed? It is not about one champion nerf, or how to test or the data thing. It is about kabam is trying so hard to screw themselves and destroy this game. Players like me, why we disagree this idea? Because we like this game, we don’t want to see players abandon this game because kabam’s stupid decision. This decision is ridiculers, the one in kabam who made this decision is 100% no business sense. They are trying to make players know all the money we spend is for nothing. Players paid money for THAT CHAMPION KABAM SHOW TO US. Show some respect to the players, listen what we think and what we want.

    Just the opposite actually. They're not trying to destroy it. They're keeping it going. We do understand why people are upset. No one to the best of my knowledge has made the argument that people shouldn't feel a certain way. While I can't speak for anyone else, my point is there are things which are necessary for the health of the game. Those must be resolved. For that matter, there's no guarantee that a Champion will be the same as when you acquire them for the duration of the game, ever. In fact, they make the very clear stipulation that they have the right to modify their product whenever necessary.

    see, you still don’t understand. What is the health game you are keep saying? I think more player want to spend money, then kabam can make money, then maybe they wants to use some profit to develop this game, that is health game. If most players don’t spend money anymore or abandon this game, what is the point of balance or game health
    If they don't resolve problems that will break the game down the road, there isn't anything left to spend on. The health of the game isn't about money.
    Cull won't break the game down the road he would probably last like 2 fight before you have to revive him
    Who's to say what will and will not break the game? Only them. They're the ones with the goals, the data, and the experience on this particular game. I was speaking in the general sense, not necessarily saying he's going to break the game. Having a Champ that does much more Damage than other Top Champs has an effect later on. One that creates much more work for them, and less balance for the rest of us.
    Kabam has still never disclosed what too much damage is because from what I've seen Cull ain't the only Champ who can hit extremely high numbers so what are they even getting at here let alone of his weakness like fisticuffs, limber, bleed, poison, etc.
    Apparently, they have disclosed that too much is what he's doing, and that's a comparative analysis towards what others do. As to whether that's too much total, or too much too fast, I'm unsure.
    There is no way it's too much too fast since there are way more other Champs that can get extremely high numbers way faster than Cull and even in total he is similar to numerous Champs like namor, nick fury, domino, or even hela I wouldnt say he out damages any of them as all of them share similar numbers damage wise
    I mean we can argue ad nauseam that he isn't really that strong, but they obviously have the numbers to prove it, and we know many people Ranked him for the very same reasons, so all evidence points to the data being accurate.
    Those numbers are irrelevant when you put Cull in a realistic situation no way he is destroying Champs in act 6. All they do is analyze the numbers but not the situations that he is in so it's not a fair evaluation
    The numbers aren't irrelevant at all. That's the very gauge they're using. What you're saying is he's not too much because you can't use him for one piece of content. Not at all what this is about. This is about the fact that he's out damaging any other Champ among the Top.
    It's not just one piece of content he is bad at he is bad in most of the variants against certain nodes he is also roadblocked in some of the paths in this EQ and so on so it's not just one piece of content
    Counter what? You're arguing he's bad in areas, and their comment was that his Damage was more than others. They didn't claim he was good at everything.
    Exactly he is balanced enough you know how rare it is to actually reach his high damage potential due to all these counters
    If he was balanced enough, we wouldn't be in this Thread discussing it.
    Laughable. This shows a serious disregard for logic. It is poorly argued. I promise I do not mean that as an insult. Merely pointing out the blatantly fallacious nature of such an assumption. The reason this thread exists, and the only reason it exists, is because they say he is unbalanced. This does not make it true. The evidence is there.

    People wouldn’t be arguing that the Earth is flat unless it is. People wouldn’t be arguing that vaccines cause autism on various forums unless it did.

    You dabble in some dangerous black and whites. Scary stuff.

    That puts an abrupt end to any further discussion.

    Take care.
    Actually I call it stating the obvious. If Kabam felt he was balanced, they never would have made the Announcement concerning him. This isn't some arbitrary thing they pulled out of their hats. They're not just making frivolous changes. If they say he's doing more than any other higher-end Champ, that's very indicative of the fact that they find that imbalanced.
    Sly attempt at a redo there, but that’s not what you said. You said, quite matter of factly, that we wouldn’t be discussing it on this thread if he was balanced. I implore you to at least try and understand the problems with this statement.

    Why do you presume to know their motivations? It’s absolutely arbitrary. Are you being serious right now? They are the ones who designed the game. Everything is arbitrary.

    Once again, just because they find it unbalanced does not mean that it is. For some reason this needs repeating. This is their business. They are inherently biased. How is this not obvious to you? Truly baffling.

    I’ve played all this content with all these champions. Myself, along with many of the most known players in the community all agree that this is based on flawed data. Thousands upon thousands of hours of gameplay across all modes from elite players.

    Ask yourself a question... And I’m being sincere. Think about it intensely.

    In your life, do you care that what you believe in is true? If so, how exactly do you go about determining what is true and what is not?

    Think about it.
    Redo? Not at all. I said what I said, and I explained where it was coming from.
    I'm not sure what you're talking about when going into existential "true", but I believe what they're saying is true. Yes.
    Well, I’ve played with all of the champions, so I don’t need to believe anything. I know it isn’t true. Can you say that?

    You know what would help? Clarification! What is the criteria for evaluation? What exactly is the data that is being assessed? Is it consistent? Who exactly is processing the data, and when are the conclusions made? At what point does the red flag wave to indicate the need for change? Does the community have some standard with which to gauge these methods? Why not?

    None of these things seem to matter to you. You are satisfied with belief. Unfortunately, I suspect your version of the truth is going to disappoint you greatly at some point in your life. I sure hope not, but good luck.
    So because you've played with the Champ in your own experience, and your own level of progress, you've determined that the balance THEY are trying to achieve is already present, and their data is either incorrect, or incorrectly being processed.
    What is the balance they are trying to achieve exactly? Through what methods and data are they achieving it? Do we get any insight into this?

    Can you answer that? No. You can’t, because this information is not made available to you.

    What I do have to go on is my actual experience with all of this over thousands of hours. Interestingly, thousands of players are finding the same conclusions.

    How is this possible? We’re not arguing against a Cull nerf simply because we have him, and he is a top ten game dominator, because HE ISN’T.

    Man...this sure is fun, but ultimately futile.
    Thousands of hours and thousands of Players. That's a pretty bold statement. Are you claiming to speak for all of their findings, or claiming your data is more accurate than theirs? It's hard to tell.
    I can't speak to their goals for balance any more than you can. The difference is, I'm not claiming they're wrong just because I believe my own experience in certain areas of the game with a Champ is more substantial than the actual data they are using. The difference is, they are the ones making the game. They are the ones that set the goals for balance. They are the ones who create said Champions and make adjustments according to their own standards and objectives moving forward. If you're claiming to know their game better than they do, and more accurately than their own data and findings, I'd say that's a bit too boastful.
  • Justin2524Justin2524 Posts: 1,616 ★★★★
    Shinyuu said:

    I do want to ask you'll something I'm not here to argue with any of you. I want to know your honest opinions. let's have a meaningful discussion about this. What can Kabam do to fix this situation? What would you do if you were running Kabam to try to get the community calmed back down?

    Rank down tickets?
    Refunds of units?
    Upping his block proficiency since they're bringing his damage output down?

    What things can they do @Japam12345 @Lormif @GroundedWisdom ?

    I also want to thank you @GroundedWisdom for addressing me earlier with respect and telling me how you felt and not laughing at me or calling me stupid basically just for asking some questions.

    For the 10000th time, Kabam had said that Cull WILL REMAIN ONE OF THE TOP DAMAGE DEALER IN THE GAME.

    Just wait and see what the resulting re-tweak is then go from there.
This discussion has been closed.