Armor Shattered - Still gaining power

DNA will I’m sure describe this in much better detail, but basically sounds something like this 😀 ...

The PowerGain node gives Ultron MORE than 100%, and Medusa only reduces it by 100% (subtraction, not multiplication), so Ultron still does have some amount of PowerGain (he is not at 0).

Nooowbie

Ohhhh!! Now that makes sense! Thanks much SummonerNR

DNA will I’m sure describe this in much better detail, but basically sounds something like this 😀 ...

The PowerGain node gives Ultron MORE than 100%, and Medusa only reduces it by 100% (subtraction, not multiplication), so Ultron still does have some amount of PowerGain (he is not at 0).

KeepinItReal

@Nooowbie different situation but in Variant 2, 3.2.1 a BPCW used armor up to reverse stun Medusa while being armor shattered. I don't think his armor ups are passive. I could be wrong,...but I do know before the Vision Aarkus update BPCW couldn't reverse stun even with armor ups up when armor shattered. I saw that shatter now includes both armor break debuff & armor shatter.
Ultron 100% shouldn't be gaining power if all his abilities are shut down bc shatter. Nebula doesn't as AQ MiniB. Maybe that node is bugged or her armor shatter can't interact with it. I'm still confused about what's definitively correct. Lol

DNA will I’m sure describe this in much better detail, but basically sounds something like this 😀 ...

The PowerGain node gives Ultron MORE than 100%, and Medusa only reduces it by 100% (subtraction, not multiplication), so Ultron still does have some amount of PowerGain (he is not at 0).

This is exactly correct. I didn't watch the video but if the defender has 60% power gain, and Medusa applies Armor Shatter, then the defender's overall power gain is 100% (base) plus 60% (power gain node) minus 100% (Armor Shatter). That equals 60% of base power gain.

In general when abilities and effects apply "percentage" modifiers, that is based on the base value of the thing being modified. In other words, there's an invisible phrase at the end of every description which goes "...of base value."

So Armor Shatter reduces power gain by 100% of base value. The power gain node increases power gain by 60% of base value. That I think makes it more clear what's going on. Ultron has some base power gain amount, which is (obviously) 100% of base value. Armor Shatter reduces that value by 100% of the base value. But the node increases Ultron's power gain by 60% of the base value. These do not completely offset to zero.

DNA will I’m sure describe this in much better detail, but basically sounds something like this 😀 ...

The PowerGain node gives Ultron MORE than 100%, and Medusa only reduces it by 100% (subtraction, not multiplication), so Ultron still does have some amount of PowerGain (he is not at 0).
This is exactly correct. I didn't watch the video but if the defender has 60% power gain, and Medusa applies Armor Shatter, then the defender's overall power gain is 100% (base) plus 60% (power gain node) minus 100% (Armor Shatter). That equals 60% of base power gain.

In general when abilities and effects apply "percentage" modifiers, that is based on the base value of the thing being modified. In other words, there's an invisible phrase at the end of every description which goes "...of base value."

So Armor Shatter reduces power gain by 100% of base value. The power gain node increases power gain by 60% of base value. That I think makes it more clear what's going on. Ultron has some base power gain amount, which is (obviously) 100% of base value. Armor Shatter reduces that value by 100% of the base value. But the node increases Ultron's power gain by 60% of the base value. These do not completely offset to zero.

Please don’t kill me it’s just my opinion lol but if Medusa shuts down Ultron’s power gain to zero then 60% of zero should still be zero imo. I know you’re right as in how it’s calculated in game so I’m not arguing that. But my point is that when you reduce something to zero then it shouldn’t matter if something is multiplied by an X amount because even 1000 times 0 is still 0. Kabam should change the way they multiply percentages in this game. Like I said just my opinion lol

DNA will I’m sure describe this in much better detail, but basically sounds something like this 😀 ...

The PowerGain node gives Ultron MORE than 100%, and Medusa only reduces it by 100% (subtraction, not multiplication), so Ultron still does have some amount of PowerGain (he is not at 0).
This is exactly correct. I didn't watch the video but if the defender has 60% power gain, and Medusa applies Armor Shatter, then the defender's overall power gain is 100% (base) plus 60% (power gain node) minus 100% (Armor Shatter). That equals 60% of base power gain.

In general when abilities and effects apply "percentage" modifiers, that is based on the base value of the thing being modified. In other words, there's an invisible phrase at the end of every description which goes "...of base value."

So Armor Shatter reduces power gain by 100% of base value. The power gain node increases power gain by 60% of base value. That I think makes it more clear what's going on. Ultron has some base power gain amount, which is (obviously) 100% of base value. Armor Shatter reduces that value by 100% of the base value. But the node increases Ultron's power gain by 60% of the base value. These do not completely offset to zero.
Please don’t kill me it’s just my opinion lol but if Medusa shuts down Ultron’s power gain to zero then 60% of zero should still be zero imo. I know you’re right as in how it’s calculated in game so I’m not arguing that. But my point is that when you reduce something to zero then it shouldn’t matter if something is multiplied by an X amount because even 1000 times 0 is still 0. Kabam should change the way they multiply percentages in this game. Like I said just my opinion lol

But Medusa doesn't shut down Ultron's power to zero. That's the point. Medusa reduces Ultron's power gain by 100% of its base value. In other words, if Ultron's power gain was 8, Medusa's Armor shatter reduces it by 8. That's all it does, and that's all basically what (virtually) all percentage buffs and debuffs do. They don't multiply percentages in the game. They add and subtract them.

In your opinion, should players be able to reverse healing? Because healing reversal relies on this same behavior. If you apply a 50% healing debuff and then another 50% healing debuff and then another 50% healing debuff, do you expect the healing to be -50% (100-50-50-50)? Or do you expect it to be 12.5% (0.5x0.5x0.5)? How about ability accuracy? When Archangel lands a -35% Ability Accuracy debuff with neurotoxin, and then another -35%, and then another -35%, do you expect ability accuracy to be (basically) zero (100-35-35-35), or do you expect it to be 27% (0.65x0.65x0.65)?

Players think this is perfectly fine when it works in their favor, and it does most of the time. Take away this "-100% effect" and you will take away all these other things as well, because multiplicative stacking does both simultaneously. You can't have one without the other.

BigPoppaCBONE

If his ability accuracy and power gain are both reduced by 100%, he should be left with only the additional power gain from the node, and shouldn't it fail to proc on hit due to his aa being reduced by 100% as well unless there's an additional aa boost?

Fred_Joeity

Effects like +60% power gain aren’t affected by AAR since it’s more like a “passive” effect

DrZola

I’m still straining through my magnifying glass to see where it says “base” Power Gain in there.

Dr. Zola

BigPoppaCBONE

So the idea is that Medusa’s effects go to town on their base power gain and for some reason ignores an additional power gain. What about the AI uprising synergy? Can shattered robots still gain power through that?

So the idea is that Medusa’s effects go to town on their base power gain and for some reason ignores an additional power gain...

Basically, yes (related to PG), although It does not technically “ignore” the additional PG. It just subtracts 100% from whatever current AA or PG the robot has (which in the case of +60% PG node he is then at a 160% PG level, before subtracting 100, and so leaving him at 60% PG after applying the Shatter).

“...reducing AA and PG by 100%”

I’m still straining through my magnifying glass to see where it says “base” Power Gain in there.

Dr. Zola

If you want to argue technicalities, "%" means "percent" and percent is "hundredths of something." The description doesn't say what that something is, so you have no right to assume that the something is "all of the power gain the champion has including that granted from buffs."

If you want to argue that the description is ambiguous or unclear that's another story: I've been having that argument with game developers for longer than many of the MCOC players have been alive. Game developers for some reason don't seem to "get" this or almost never seem to think it is important enough to address systematically.

There is a reason for this: it isn't just a strange game developer conspiracy. I believe it is a side effect of how games are developed. Games always lie. Nothing ever actually happens as described. Game engines implement a set of mechanics, and then developers create the effects players see out of those Legos. So game developers already have a sense that they shouldn't be telling players what is actually happening, but rather a kindergarten simplified version of what's happening.

A bleed is an effect applied to a target that ticks damage. That's a lie. A bleed is actually modifier triggered on the attacker that has a damage whose target is flagged to be the attacker's opponent. Should players be told that? Probably not: its just confusing for no purpose. But then developers (in my opinion) get lazy, and decide that "-50%" is "close enough" without having to clarify what the percentage means.

@DNA3000 so let me ask a question. If a champ is bleed immune but theres a node that states bleed ability is +60% then with kabam’s logic that bleed immune champ will bleed not 100% of the damage but only 60%. It just doesn’t make sense. Again I’m not arguing with you about how this game works but rather that it’s calculated wrong.

Voltolos

@DNA3000 so let me ask a question. If a champ is bleed immune but theres a node that states bleed ability is +60% then with kabam’s logic that bleed immune champ will bleed not 100% of the damage but only 60%. It just doesn’t make sense. Again I’m not arguing with you about how this game works but rather that it’s calculated wrong.

Immunities dont reduce damage by 100%, they prevent it entirely.

BigPoppaCBONE

So the idea is that Medusa’s effects go to town on their base power gain and for some reason ignores an additional power gain...
Basically, yes (related to PG), although It does not technically “ignore” the additional PG. It just subtracts 100% from whatever current AA or PG the robot has (which in the case of +60% PG node he is then at a 160% PG level, before subtracting 100, and so leaving him at 60% PG after applying the Shatter).

“...reducing AA and PG by 100%”

Effectively ignoring it. The non-node power gain is whatever it is. The shatter debuff subtracts that power gain number from itself, but doesn't do that for the node and also doesn't reduce its 100% accuracy to 0 and keep it from procing on hit. The shatter should prevent gaining power on hit and gaining power via current effect and the aa reduction should prevent any new effects including removal of the shatter unless their aa is greater than 100% or an immunity is in play.

They should stop brutalizing percentages and language like this. If it's meant to negate power gain effects, then say that. If node effects can't have their accuracy adjusted, then say that.

@DNA3000 so let me ask a question. If a champ is bleed immune but theres a node that states bleed ability is +60% then with kabam’s logic that bleed immune champ will bleed not 100% of the damage but only 60%. It just doesn’t make sense. Again I’m not arguing with you about how this game works but rather that it’s calculated wrong.
Immunities dont reduce damage by 100%, they prevent it entirely.

And Medusas shatter prevents power gain yet Ultron is gaining power. Exactly my point. Preventing something reduces the chance to 0. No matter how many times you multiply 0 it’s still 0

@DNA3000 so let me ask a question. If a champ is bleed immune but theres a node that states bleed ability is +60% then with kabam’s logic that bleed immune champ will bleed not 100% of the damage but only 60%. It just doesn’t make sense. Again I’m not arguing with you about how this game works but rather that it’s calculated wrong.

Nope. Ability accuracy determine if an effect triggers. Immunities don't prevent an ability from triggering, they prevent the effects from applying. If a champ is bleed immune but there's a node that states bleed ability accuracy is increased by 60% then the bleed effect triggers, but then doesn't apply to the target. If there is a node that says bleed damage is increased by 60% then the game calculates the bleed damage to be increased per tick, and once again the bleed effect triggers with the higher damage ticks but then doesn't apply to the target because the target's immunities prevent that effect from being applied to the target.

This isn't calculated "wrong." This is simply how the mechanics work. Moreover, this how I would expect these mechanics to work.

@DNA3000 so let me ask a question. If a champ is bleed immune but theres a node that states bleed ability is +60% then with kabam’s logic that bleed immune champ will bleed not 100% of the damage but only 60%. It just doesn’t make sense. Again I’m not arguing with you about how this game works but rather that it’s calculated wrong.
Immunities dont reduce damage by 100%, they prevent it entirely.
And Medusas shatter prevents power gain yet Ultron is gaining power. Exactly my point. Preventing something reduces the chance to 0. No matter how many times you multiply 0 it’s still 0

You keep saying that, but no matter how many times you say it doesn't make it true. Medusa's armor shatter is not described to or defined to "prevent power gain." If it did, then this would be bugged behavior. There are effects that prevent power gain. Power lock, for example, prevents power gain. It doesn't reduce power gain effects by 100%. It *prevents* power gain. No amount of power gain buff generates power if you're power locked. But Armor Shatter is not a power lock. It is a strength reduction, and it reduces power gain by 100 percentage points.

We can argue if the English text description is ambiguous. But knowing how it actually works, and more importantly what the intent was, the calculations are correct. You can reduce power gain by a number, or you can absolutely stop it. Both effects exist in the game. When the game uses the latter, power gain should be stopped. When the game uses the former, power gain should still be possible if a counter-acting buff overwhelms the debuff. This is not just how players generally expect things to work, in general this is a good game design principle to honor. Debuffs shouldn't behave one way when they have any value from 1 to 99, and then suddenly work differently when they have a value of 100. That's bad design.

@DNA3000 so let me ask a question. If a champ is bleed immune but theres a node that states bleed ability is +60% then with kabam’s logic that bleed immune champ will bleed not 100% of the damage but only 60%. It just doesn’t make sense. Again I’m not arguing with you about how this game works but rather that it’s calculated wrong.
Immunities dont reduce damage by 100%, they prevent it entirely.
And Medusas shatter prevents power gain yet Ultron is gaining power. Exactly my point. Preventing something reduces the chance to 0. No matter how many times you multiply 0 it’s still 0
You keep saying that, but no matter how many times you say it doesn't make it true. Medusa's armor shatter is not described to or defined to "prevent power gain." If it did, then this would be bugged behavior. There are effects that prevent power gain. Power lock, for example, prevents power gain. It doesn't reduce power gain effects by 100%. It *prevents* power gain. No amount of power gain buff generates power if you're power locked. But Armor Shatter is not a power lock. It is a strength reduction, and it reduces power gain by 100 percentage points.

We can argue if the English text description is ambiguous. But knowing how it actually works, and more importantly what the intent was, the calculations are correct. You can reduce power gain by a number, or you can absolutely stop it. Both effects exist in the game. When the game uses the latter, power gain should be stopped. When the game uses the former, power gain should still be possible if a counter-acting buff overwhelms the debuff. This is not just how players generally expect things to work, in general this is a good game design principle to honor. Debuffs shouldn't behave one way when they have any value from 1 to 99, and then suddenly work differently when they have a value of 100. That's bad design.

I wish you were in charge of champion descriptions. I swear there’d be so much less confusion 😂

@DNA3000 so let me ask a question. If a champ is bleed immune but theres a node that states bleed ability is +60% then with kabam’s logic that bleed immune champ will bleed not 100% of the damage but only 60%. It just doesn’t make sense. Again I’m not arguing with you about how this game works but rather that it’s calculated wrong.
Immunities dont reduce damage by 100%, they prevent it entirely.
And Medusas shatter prevents power gain yet Ultron is gaining power. Exactly my point. Preventing something reduces the chance to 0. No matter how many times you multiply 0 it’s still 0
You keep saying that, but no matter how many times you say it doesn't make it true. Medusa's armor shatter is not described to or defined to "prevent power gain." If it did, then this would be bugged behavior. There are effects that prevent power gain. Power lock, for example, prevents power gain. It doesn't reduce power gain effects by 100%. It *prevents* power gain. No amount of power gain buff generates power if you're power locked. But Armor Shatter is not a power lock. It is a strength reduction, and it reduces power gain by 100 percentage points.

We can argue if the English text description is ambiguous. But knowing how it actually works, and more importantly what the intent was, the calculations are correct. You can reduce power gain by a number, or you can absolutely stop it. Both effects exist in the game. When the game uses the latter, power gain should be stopped. When the game uses the former, power gain should still be possible if a counter-acting buff overwhelms the debuff. This is not just how players generally expect things to work, in general this is a good game design principle to honor. Debuffs shouldn't behave one way when they have any value from 1 to 99, and then suddenly work differently when they have a value of 100. That's bad design.
I wish you were in charge of champion descriptions. I swear there’d be so much less confusion 😂

If they let me, I would rewrite them all. For free. Not even a little bit kidding. They are a big bunch of awful. I often wonder what the translated versions must be like.

The best I can do is explain what the game does, and what the game intends, which is not always the same thing but is usually in the same zip code. But I'm on record as saying the in-game descriptions are plagued with problems. The best any of us can do is explain to players what we know the game does, and at least in some cases explain why it isn't a bad thing that the game does that thing. The descriptions might be confusing, but there's often some actual logic behind why the game mechanics were chosen to work in a particular way.

@DNA3000 so let me ask a question. If a champ is bleed immune but theres a node that states bleed ability is +60% then with kabam’s logic that bleed immune champ will bleed not 100% of the damage but only 60%. It just doesn’t make sense. Again I’m not arguing with you about how this game works but rather that it’s calculated wrong.
Immunities dont reduce damage by 100%, they prevent it entirely.
And Medusas shatter prevents power gain yet Ultron is gaining power. Exactly my point. Preventing something reduces the chance to 0. No matter how many times you multiply 0 it’s still 0
You keep saying that, but no matter how many times you say it doesn't make it true. Medusa's armor shatter is not described to or defined to "prevent power gain." If it did, then this would be bugged behavior. There are effects that prevent power gain. Power lock, for example, prevents power gain. It doesn't reduce power gain effects by 100%. It *prevents* power gain. No amount of power gain buff generates power if you're power locked. But Armor Shatter is not a power lock. It is a strength reduction, and it reduces power gain by 100 percentage points.

We can argue if the English text description is ambiguous. But knowing how it actually works, and more importantly what the intent was, the calculations are correct. You can reduce power gain by a number, or you can absolutely stop it. Both effects exist in the game. When the game uses the latter, power gain should be stopped. When the game uses the former, power gain should still be possible if a counter-acting buff overwhelms the debuff. This is not just how players generally expect things to work, in general this is a good game design principle to honor. Debuffs shouldn't behave one way when they have any value from 1 to 99, and then suddenly work differently when they have a value of 100. That's bad design.
I wish you were in charge of champion descriptions. I swear there’d be so much less confusion 😂
If they let me, I would rewrite them all. For free. Not even a little bit kidding. They are a big bunch of awful. I often wonder what the translated versions must be like.

The best I can do is explain what the game does, and what the game intends, which is not always the same thing but is usually in the same zip code. But I'm on record as saying the in-game descriptions are plagued with problems. The best any of us can do is explain to players what we know the game does, and at least in some cases explain why it isn't a bad thing that the game does that thing. The descriptions might be confusing, but there's often some actual logic behind why the game mechanics were chosen to work in a particular way.

Agreed 100% without ability reduction 😂

There’s way too many errors in descriptions and confusing wordings

te_dua_shum

i'm leaving this comment just to say that the node on this ultron is different from all other "+X% power gain" because it doesn't modify the power gained, but the rate at which it is gained: that's why medusa can shut down all classic power gain nodes but can't stop this particular one (and i strongly believe that it was designed to counter armor shatter) ^_^

i'm leaving this comment just to say that the node on this ultron is different from all other "+X% power gain" because it doesn't modify the power gained, but the rate at which it is gained: that's why medusa can shut down all classic power gain nodes but can't stop this particular one (and i strongly believe that it was designed to counter armor shatter) ^_^

This is another wording thing I don't think is done consistently. There is power gain effects which are effects that generate power, and there is power gain rate which is the rate at which the champion gains power when they hit or get hit in general. The game doesn't always distinguish between the two clearly in every case.

te_dua_shum

i'm leaving this comment just to say that the node on this ultron is different from all other "+X% power gain" because it doesn't modify the power gained, but the rate at which it is gained: that's why medusa can shut down all classic power gain nodes but can't stop this particular one (and i strongly believe that it was designed to counter armor shatter) ^_^

This is another wording thing I don't think is done consistently. There is power gain effects which are effects that generate power, and there is power gain rate which is the rate at which the champion gains power when they hit or get hit in general. The game doesn't always distinguish between the two clearly in every case.

completely agree with you, a little more clarity would be greatly appreciated, especially if you take into consideration how many variables there are in this game now... but we play with what we have, right? i don't want to complain about the lack of clearness in this moment, i think there are other things to be worried about ^_^

speaking of translated descriptions though, i'll just say that the heimdall/thor synergy still says "... regenerate 15% of health", missing the word... well, "missing" XD

...
speaking of translated descriptions though, i'll just say that the heimdall/thor synergy still says "... regenerate 15% of health", missing the word... well, "missing" XD

Are you sure it does NOT say the word “Missing” ??? 😀
(or are you literally talking about in some foreign language translations, and not just how we “translate” things in our own head into how we “want” them to read)

te_dua_shum

@SummonerNR completely sure about it, i checked the champion before commenting, and yes, i was speaking about description translated in other languages... but i think i misunderstood the context, i'm sorry ^^"

...
speaking of translated descriptions though, i'll just say that the heimdall/thor synergy still says "... regenerate 15% of health", missing the word... well, "missing" XD

Are you sure it does NOT say the word “Missing” ??? 😀
(or are you literally talking about in some foreign language translations, and not just how we “translate” things in our own head into how we “want” them to read)

As we have Italian players in our alliance, I recall someone saying that in Italian the synergy description said words to the effect of it heals 15% of health, not 15% of missing health. I don't know if that was ever corrected, or how many other languages have that problem.