Man, I don’t want to sound like a broke record here...

GroundedWisdom

You're obviously going to twist every point I make to suit your argument so I'm out.

GroundedWisdom

Trying to add a personal undertone to your comments isn't helping you make your case. Your argument is that someone can spend their way through AOL, so they should be allowed to bypass years of progress and learning and go from 4*s to access to continual Cavalier Rewards. Your other point of Uncollected is part of the problem I've just outlined. They undoubtedly have the data on how many people have passed Uncollected, and how many people now rest between that and Act 6. You're giving validity to what I'm saying, not disproving anything.

GroundedWisdom

gianleo said:

GroundedWisdom said:

_ASDF_ said:

GroundedWisdom said:

DNA3000 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

gianleo said:

Zuro said:

GroundedWisdom said:

TheInfinty said:

ImmortalOmega said:

You don't have to waste your units in Act 6 If you don't have the right counters for every Quest. It's not right to say that we need Max 5 Stars or r2 6 Stars to complete every Lane, If you are skilled enough than r3 5* will also get you the job done

R3 5 stars give me a break man.....

No different than people wanting to bring their 4*s. Lol.

There is something called synergies

Dont educate him. He wants to be illiterate forever on that fact. Ppl keeps telling how hard to pull 5* or 6* Heimdall for synergy but he keeps being blunt with his ignorant replies. I bet even when ppl have a 5* or 6* Heimdall, he is not gonna participate in a single fight in act 6. The one who disagees with my saying 6.2 is the most hated thing in game is definitely him too.
P/s: Btw, 6.2 gets gold medal then GW wins the silver one, congrats

That's a great deal of assumptions and assertions based on one comment. You can't speak for what I will and will not do, and I definitely didn't disagree that 6.2 is the most hated thing. I said it's absurd for people to expect to bring 4*s into Act 6. I'm fully aware of Synergies, but people depending on a 4* Roster have no business doing Act 6.

I didn't oppose the gates when they first came out, and I don't have a personal problem with them now, but I now think that the 5* gate and the Act 6 content are an incompatible pair. Which is to say, the 5* gate is fine if Act 6 were designed in a different way, and Act 6's difficulty design would be more logical if the gate didn't exist, but the combination is actually nonsensical in a very specific way.

Act 6 is the end of a story arc, not the beginning of one. It should be a culmination of the progress players have made up to that point. Players should have been progressing in two ways. They should have been making rosters stronger (i.e. higher rank). And they should also have been making them wider (more different champs). Act 6 demands both: strong champs, and for most players a wide assortment of them to counter many different fights.

We should have expected that players would be building that deep bench. But the 5* gate cuts off the majority of the roster. You could argue that 4* champs aren't strong enough anyway, but if that were true there would be no reason to gate them. Instead the content says you have to have a deep bench of champs, and the gate says the vast majority of work you've done to build that roster doesn't count.

Maybe that might have made sense in Book 2. But it doesn't make sense in Act 6. If you cut off most of a player's champs with the 5* gate, then Act 6 should have focused on fights with a wide range of counters, not a narrow one. From a pure game design perspective, if you're only going to let players use a limited subset of champions, then you have to increase the likelihood they will have a useful set of them. And from a psychological perspective, I have come to believe that Act 6 sends the wrong psychological message, that your earlier progress doesn't matter. Especially when we now know Act 6 is the end of the road for Book 1, Act 6 should have sent the message that this is where you throw everything you have at it, and then we start anew in Book 2. Instead there isn't that sense of closure with Book 1.

My roster is pretty deep, and the gates don't hurt me much. And I'm willing to just keep playing until I get a champ if I think I need it. The gates don't hurt my enjoyment of the game. You could even argue that the gates *help* me, because as an arena grinder and as someone who is capable of building roster, I have an advantage over the average player. Act 6 rewards will eventually give me a huge advantage over players with much more limited rosters. And I even argued initially that the gates were fine when they came out. So I serve no self-interest in saying I think in retrospect they are actually a mistake in the content.

There's a difference between saying someone with only a 4* roster should expect to be able to complete Act 6, and saying someone who relies on some 4* champs for certain things should be able to use them. The first one is ridiculous: such a player hasn't made enough progress to demand that. But if all you have is 4* Hulk Ragnarok to try to take down Sinister and the game says you can't use it, that's different. You have to justify that decision, and if Sinister had a broad range of counters you could tell a player to sit down and wait until they pulled one of them. But if Sinister has only a handful of counters and the player might have to wait literally years before they pulled them, and this appears in content intended to guide players towards progressing in the game to me that's wrong.

I agree as well. After I commented that, I went back and debated saying that they could theoretically allow 4*s for Synergy purposes and gate the Fights themselves. The narrowness of Act 6 is definitely another layer, but it's separate from the point I was trying to make. I just don't feel that the content should be accessible to people with underdeveloped Rosters and some OP 4*s. Which are a great deal easier to Sig, and acquire. In general, I just don't think it's healthy to allow access to underdeveloped Rosters.

Firstly, the only reason for the need of synergies like heimdall, was created by kabam. Not summoners desire to prematurely take on advanced content. They said they’d stop using class gates... so they created a web of nodes that at times limit viable champs down to 2-3 out of the 150 or whatever available.

Secondly, why should anyone care if someone can make an initial pass through content with a few 4*s on their team? The attack and health pools are so great after 6.2, if they can do it... they deserve it lmao.

I can’t believe your still arguing about the same thing with people. GW, what percentage of Act 6 have you cleared? I think I’m around 80%.

It's a problem when we have people barely even learning the skills they need or advancing their Accounts enough before piling through Storymode. I've seen a number here. They've started some months ago, blasted through to Act 5 because they've watched some YouTube, and their progress is in limbo. Players aren't meant to take a few OP Champs and steam roll through content without spending significant time advancing their Rosters and skills. Of course they desire it. They want to skip the wait and get to bigger Rewards.
As for the Gates, they were pretty clear that they would be using more of them in the future. Gates aren't the same as narrow Fights. That's a whole other discussion, and I agree that there is a counterproductive point of too narrow.

Yeah right Mister. Cowhale doesn't have a basic skill and look what he got in his account. Give him a rank 5/65 Domino or Doom or Ghost, I bet he cannot even take down a no retreat Elektra in 6.1 in one take. Ppl fail, let them fail. They can choose to advance their skills by coming back later or advance their spending. Spenders will always spend no matter how hard the new content is, they will get it fully explored in less than a day.

How is CoWhale even remotely a comparable example to someone starting the game out and rushing though Storymode? How is he even a viable example for anyone, really? Not that many people are dropping that amount of cash on the game.

GroundedWisdom

_ASDF_ said:

GroundedWisdom said:

Trying to add a personal undertone to your comments isn't helping you make your case. Your argument is that someone can spend their way through AOL, so they should be allowed to bypass years of progress and learning and go from 4*s to access to continual Cavalier Rewards. Your other point of Uncollected is part of the problem I've just outlined. They undoubtedly have the data on how many people have passed Uncollected, and how many people now rest between that and Act 6. You're giving validity to what I'm saying, not disproving anything.

None of what your stating is based in reality or real in and of itself.

The 3/4*s are purely for synergy. Not for actually using to fight with.

No one will be steam rolling anything with 4*s. There are no champs that are so OP that they can get passed the champion. Let alone sinister. Or Mordo. Without massive reviving.

They only slow progression based on size of roster and not skill. I’ve got no skin in the game, I had all the champs needed to pass the bosses. It’s just a bad precedent to set.

The ability to get passed sinister and the champion is either a paywall for people or an RNG wall. Nothing to do with progression.

If you’d actually gone through those chapters multiple times you’d know that. 🤷‍♂️

I've already addressed the Synergy point. As for a paywall, I disagree that it's all about the money. It's about having the right counters. I've also said that I agree that there's a point where it's too narrow. The purpose of the Gates, which is what I was discussing, is to separate Players based on progress. The Fight isn't a Gate. Since this is going in circles, we will have to agree to disagree.

DNA3000

GroundedWisdom said:

The purpose of the Gates, which is what I was discussing, is to separate Players based on progress.

The question is, in what way does it separate them? In principle, it only separates them into those who have significant 5* rosters and those who don't. But in practice, it separates them into those who have incredibly wide and powerful 5* and 6* rosters, and everyone else. But that prerequisite seems wildly high for Act 6, when the prerequisite for its predecessor, basically Act 5.4, is vastly lower. The difference in progress between the minimum requirement to complete act 5 and the minimum requirement to realistically enter 6.1, or maybe more precisely 6.2, is extremely large. Probably larger by an order of magnitude than any other such jump. It is another way in which Act 6 more closely resembles end game content than progressional content.

It is not enough to say the 5* gate is a progress gate. For it to make sense, it has to be a gate from one reasonable point in progress to the next consecutive one. But Act 6's jump is so high, a lot of veteran players advise other players that the next stop after Act 5 is not Act 6, it is the Variant missions. But the Variant missions were intended to be optional content; they didn't even all exist when 6.1 released. So they can't really have been intended to bridge the gap between Act 5 and Act 6.

And astonishingly, the Act 6 5* gate synergizes with the content in such a way that some players even suggest, without any irony, that the next stop after single completion of Act 6 might be the Abyss, not attempting to explore Act 6. I might even do that, because the risk/reward for full exploration of Act 6, even for my roster, might be lower than just grinding through the Abyss. Which is incredibly odd, it would be like if people were saying that after you beat the Collector you should clear Labyrinth first, then go back to Act 5. Yet *another* way in which Act 6 more closely resembles end game content than progressional content. Nobody even compares Act 6 with any other progressional content, only end game content.

GroundedWisdom

DNA3000 said:

GroundedWisdom said:

The purpose of the Gates, which is what I was discussing, is to separate Players based on progress.

The question is, in what way does it separate them? In principle, it only separates them into those who have significant 5* rosters and those who don't. But in practice, it separates them into those who have incredibly wide and powerful 5* and 6* rosters, and everyone else. But that prerequisite seems wildly high for Act 6, when the prerequisite for its predecessor, basically Act 5.4, is vastly lower. The difference in progress between the minimum requirement to complete act 5 and the minimum requirement to realistically enter 6.1, or maybe more precisely 6.2, is extremely large. Probably larger by an order of magnitude than any other such jump. It is another way in which Act 6 more closely resembles end game content than progressional content.

It is not enough to say the 5* gate is a progress gate. For it to make sense, it has to be a gate from one reasonable point in progress to the next consecutive one. But Act 6's jump is so high, a lot of veteran players advise other players that the next stop after Act 5 is not Act 6, it is the Variant missions. But the Variant missions were intended to be optional content; they didn't even all exist when 6.1 released. So they can't really have been intended to bridge the gap between Act 5 and Act 6.

And astonishingly, the Act 6 5* gate synergizes with the content in such a way that some players even suggest, without any irony, that the next stop after single completion of Act 6 might be the Abyss, not attempting to explore Act 6. I might even do that, because the risk/reward for full exploration of Act 6, even for my roster, might be lower than just grinding through the Abyss. Which is incredibly odd, it would be like if people were saying that after you beat the Collector you should clear Labyrinth first, then go back to Act 5. Yet *another* way in which Act 6 more closely resembles end game content than progressional content. Nobody even compares Act 6 with any other progressional content, only end game content.

I'm with you in that line of thinking. I agree it was quite an abrupt step. It would have made more sense to be had there been partial Gates in Act 6, and the large leap in Act 7 to nothing but 5*s and 6*s. However, from the Rewards perspective, I see why it's necessary. In terms of Cavalier Rewards, it was important to keep access restricted to Rosters that aren't advanced too far ahead. Meaning people wouldn't jump from mid-range Rosters to increased rates of 5*s and 6*s.