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New trend happening/ Rant

Texas_11Texas_11 Posts: 2,638 ★★★★★
edited September 2020 in General Discussion
I notice that Kabam is starting to make champions useable through synergies, when I feel that the synergy should have been part of their basic kit anyway. I’ll give you a few examples:

Dragon man synergy with invisible woman: allows her to retain 40% vulnerabilities if you miss.

Cable synergy with apocalypse: Cable can stack unlimited degen and have a decent incinerate.

Stealth suit and imiw: IMIW increase duration on debuffs.

I do not mind having to take in a diverse roster, but what I do mind is a lot of these fixes are coming through new champs that will not enter the basic pool in sometime.

I have been playing this game since the beginning and still have not pulled a 5*

Hulk buster
Magik
Rouge
7 other champs

And I am still waiting to dupe some 2016-2019 champions. I also am not F2P. Just think if they are asking for a synergy at least allow 4* to participate in quest act 6.
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    LormifLormif Posts: 7,369 ★★★★★
    nothing wrong with the trend, buffing through synergies is still buffing, that is what synergies are there for. You just want more powerful characters.
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    LormifLormif Posts: 7,369 ★★★★★
    I would rather the game have characters where you decide who you bring into a quest/story based on their synergies with other champs than a game where you bring one champ (quake/ghost) to take the entire path, and then add synergies just to support that character. Then you are really building a team that works together, not just an overpowered character to bypass all the game.
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    LightvayneLightvayne Posts: 510 ★★★
    Just because they are getting buffs through synergies doesn't mean they wont get an actual buff down the road.
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    KDoggg2017KDoggg2017 Posts: 1,208 ★★★★
    edited September 2020
    Lightvayne said:

    Just because they are getting buffs through synergies doesn't mean they wont get an actual buff down the road.

    Agreed. The synergies are just an added bonus to the 2 champ per month buff cadence the roadmap laid out.
    It's a win-win.
  • Options
    Texas_11Texas_11 Posts: 2,638 ★★★★★
    KDoggg2017 said:

    Kabam's roadmap stated their goal is 2 buffs per month...ie 24 champs per year.
    Prof X/Apocalypse buffed that many champs in a single month.

    I'm with it. 😁

    I don’t Mind the buffs just when am I expected to get a stab at an apocalypse lol? They did buff a ton of champs within a month
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    Texas_11Texas_11 Posts: 2,638 ★★★★★
    Lormif said:

    I would rather the game have characters where you decide who you bring into a quest/story based on their synergies with other champs than a game where you bring one champ (quake/ghost) to take the entire path, and then add synergies just to support that character. Then you are really building a team that works together, not just an overpowered character to bypass all the game.

    I agree with you, I am all about team building , and approach the game this way. The issue is that when are you expected to get a hold of a champ?

    And if you are building a team you want each member to contribute to the team instead of Just buffing one champ. It’s hard to do that when you are forced to bring in a character and they have no use. Love IMIW but don’t have a 5* stealth, that means you miss out on some core abilities that make him a lane clearer.

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    LormifLormif Posts: 7,369 ★★★★★
    Texas_11 said:

    Lormif said:

    I would rather the game have characters where you decide who you bring into a quest/story based on their synergies with other champs than a game where you bring one champ (quake/ghost) to take the entire path, and then add synergies just to support that character. Then you are really building a team that works together, not just an overpowered character to bypass all the game.

    I agree with you, I am all about team building , and approach the game this way. The issue is that when are you expected to get a hold of a champ?

    And if you are building a team you want each member to contribute to the team instead of Just buffing one champ. It’s hard to do that when you are forced to bring in a character and they have no use. Love IMIW but don’t have a 5* stealth, that means you miss out on some core abilities that make him a lane clearer.

    one champion should not be a lone "lane clearer". Dragon man is already a good champ, add that he can now make another champion, with a different skill set better, that is win win, and now both can be used to clear content together. like I said before I dont like the entire, one champ to clear them all aspect.
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    TyEdgeTyEdge Posts: 2,965 ★★★★★
    I think synergies are a great way to add utility without the burden of a full rework.
  • Options
    LormifLormif Posts: 7,369 ★★★★★
    Texas_11 said:

    Lormif said:

    Texas_11 said:

    Lormif said:

    I would rather the game have characters where you decide who you bring into a quest/story based on their synergies with other champs than a game where you bring one champ (quake/ghost) to take the entire path, and then add synergies just to support that character. Then you are really building a team that works together, not just an overpowered character to bypass all the game.

    I agree with you, I am all about team building , and approach the game this way. The issue is that when are you expected to get a hold of a champ?

    And if you are building a team you want each member to contribute to the team instead of Just buffing one champ. It’s hard to do that when you are forced to bring in a character and they have no use. Love IMIW but don’t have a 5* stealth, that means you miss out on some core abilities that make him a lane clearer.

    one champion should not be a lone "lane clearer". Dragon man is already a good champ, add that he can now make another champion, with a different skill set better, that is win win, and now both can be used to clear content together. like I said before I dont like the entire, one champ to clear them all aspect.
    If you play the game from a team based, you should have your lane clearer that’s essential in any RPG. You have your roles and I’ll break them down.

    DPS - This is the champ aka your lane clearer

    Regen- This is your healer sustainability

    Utility - This is your power drain champ or whatever the quest needs.

    Tank - This is your champ that can take a beating colossus or Corvus etc.

    Immunities - This is a champ that you can use to prevent unnecessary damage.

    So you absolutely need a lane clearer out of those fights that don’t require one of the other characters.

    If you want to use the dragon man example If you are facing aspect of evolution you want to end the fight as quick as possible. invisible woman gets the kit she needs to not have to start the fight all over.

    In general, the longer the fight the higher your chance of death is hence your lane clearer.
    This game is not an RPG. You dont need a tank, or a healer, or a dps
  • Options
    Texas_11Texas_11 Posts: 2,638 ★★★★★
    TyEdge said:

    I think synergies are a great way to add utility without the burden of a full rework.

    They are clearly intended to improve the champ. When are we expected to get access to these? How does that benefit anyone
  • Options
    Texas_11Texas_11 Posts: 2,638 ★★★★★
    Lormif said:

    Texas_11 said:

    Lormif said:

    Texas_11 said:

    Lormif said:

    I would rather the game have characters where you decide who you bring into a quest/story based on their synergies with other champs than a game where you bring one champ (quake/ghost) to take the entire path, and then add synergies just to support that character. Then you are really building a team that works together, not just an overpowered character to bypass all the game.

    I agree with you, I am all about team building , and approach the game this way. The issue is that when are you expected to get a hold of a champ?

    And if you are building a team you want each member to contribute to the team instead of Just buffing one champ. It’s hard to do that when you are forced to bring in a character and they have no use. Love IMIW but don’t have a 5* stealth, that means you miss out on some core abilities that make him a lane clearer.

    one champion should not be a lone "lane clearer". Dragon man is already a good champ, add that he can now make another champion, with a different skill set better, that is win win, and now both can be used to clear content together. like I said before I dont like the entire, one champ to clear them all aspect.
    If you play the game from a team based, you should have your lane clearer that’s essential in any RPG. You have your roles and I’ll break them down.

    DPS - This is the champ aka your lane clearer

    Regen- This is your healer sustainability

    Utility - This is your power drain champ or whatever the quest needs.

    Tank - This is your champ that can take a beating colossus or Corvus etc.

    Immunities - This is a champ that you can use to prevent unnecessary damage.

    So you absolutely need a lane clearer out of those fights that don’t require one of the other characters.

    If you want to use the dragon man example If you are facing aspect of evolution you want to end the fight as quick as possible. invisible woman gets the kit she needs to not have to start the fight all over.

    In general, the longer the fight the higher your chance of death is hence your lane clearer.
    This game is not an RPG. You dont need a tank, or a healer, or a dps
    Kabam has stated that this is the approach they are taking with the game.
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    MattstafariMattstafari Posts: 688 ★★★
    There are some champs that are pretty poor and even with synergies they still need to be awakened and have a high sig.

    Ant man and Sentry are 2 that come to mind, I hope champs like these do get attention in the buff cycle.

    I like fun synergies, I just hope we don't end up with more like Ant man and Sentry.
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    LormifLormif Posts: 7,369 ★★★★★
    Texas_11 said:

    “always we strive to find effective ways to expand our offerings in quests, doing our best to involve and entertain a broad assortment of players. One of the better ways we’re looking to do this is by creating play spaces where a wider variety of Champions are effective, or where less-potent Champions get their due. This is collaborative, an effort that is shared by our incredible RPG Team, that continues to not only roll out exciting new Champions, but also give greatly-deserved updates to some older or underperforming ones. (I’ve seen some of the stuff they have planned, it’s exciting!)“

    “ We mentioned before that players have invested in the Champions they want to play, and we are going to do a better job of giving them more avenues to be used. However, respecting Player investment goes beyond Champions. It means being more transparent about what is fair to expect, and what is expected to be fair.

    The Energy Cost to complete a path in Book 2 will not exceed 70 Energy.
    The time required to complete a path is reduced as a part of reducing the scope of Quest Paths.
    RPG Requirements for fights will be loosened to open up more avenues for counterplay.”

    @Lormif

    Literally quotes from Kabam , tell me what is not RPG about this game?

    that there is no roleplay.
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    Patchie93Patchie93 Posts: 1,898 ★★★★
    Okay but you have no need for a healer or a tank. Since its not like all your champs fight at the same time. You may need different champs for specific nodes on your path. The only specific thing I'd say has a role would be a boss killer for each quest.
    Besides that the other 4 champs should all be for lane clearing/synergies
  • Options
    DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 18,660 Guardian
    Texas_11 said:

    “Literally quotes from Kabam , tell me what is not RPG about this game?

    There are RPG elements to the game, but the one element that doesn't exist and you're relying upon when you talk about RPG *roles* is you can only have one champion in the fight at a time. In most MMORPGs, the reason why many (not all) focus on roles is to give each *player* something to do in a team. Having a healer makes sense if you can heal the DPS. Having a healer when he has to sit on the bench while the DPS gets his face smashed in doesn't make sense in the same way.

    As to synergy buffs, I'm fine with them as they do not replace champion buffing. Champions are buffed based on their actual in-game performance. If they add a synergy and, as many suggest, that synergy is hard to acquire, then most players in the game won't be using that synergy and the average performance of that champion won't go up much.

    The problem is people attach their own narrative to this. They assume that if they think a champ needs a buff, everyone including the devs agree. And then if that champ gets a synergy bonus, then of course that's Kabam doing what they are "supposed to do" by buffing the champ but in an inaccessible way. But that is entirely false.

    What actually happens is when a new champion is created and they are designing synergies, they look for the conceptual options available for that new champ to synergize with. And if the option is a super powerful champ, they are reluctant usually to give it a super strong synergy on top (but that does happen occasionally). Conversely, if the champion is a lower performing champ, they tend to feel like they have more of a margin to hand out stronger synergies, because those stronger synergies won't do anything unbalancing to a lower performing champ. That makes complete sense from a design perspective.

    But what it looks like from the outside is, Kabam is "buffing" poor performing champs with synergies instead of buffing them directly. As if what they are supposed to do is when making synergies, make crappy ones so people don't consider them buffs. Or make strong ones and give them to the already strong champions, so people don't think they are intended to be underperformance buffs. Both of those options are silly, and the product of an invented narrative.
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    DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 18,660 Guardian
    Texas_11 said:

    Lormif said:

    Texas_11 said:

    “always we strive to find effective ways to expand our offerings in quests, doing our best to involve and entertain a broad assortment of players. One of the better ways we’re looking to do this is by creating play spaces where a wider variety of Champions are effective, or where less-potent Champions get their due. This is collaborative, an effort that is shared by our incredible RPG Team, that continues to not only roll out exciting new Champions, but also give greatly-deserved updates to some older or underperforming ones. (I’ve seen some of the stuff they have planned, it’s exciting!)“

    “ We mentioned before that players have invested in the Champions they want to play, and we are going to do a better job of giving them more avenues to be used. However, respecting Player investment goes beyond Champions. It means being more transparent about what is fair to expect, and what is expected to be fair.

    The Energy Cost to complete a path in Book 2 will not exceed 70 Energy.
    The time required to complete a path is reduced as a part of reducing the scope of Quest Paths.
    RPG Requirements for fights will be loosened to open up more avenues for counterplay.”

    @Lormif

    Literally quotes from Kabam , tell me what is not RPG about this game?

    that there is no roleplay.
    “Players assume the role of a Summoner, tasked by The Collector to build a team of Marvel heroes and villains and pit them against one another in combat”

    A role-playing game is a game in which players assume the roles of characters in a fictional setting. Players take responsibility for acting out these roles within a narrative, either through literal acting, or through a process of structured decision-making regarding character development.

    Sounds like you are playing the role of a summoner. Good try
    And what character are you assuming the role of, in this game? The summoner isn't an entity that directly appears in this game in any functional sense. In an RPG or MMORPG, you are assuming the "role" of an actual character in the game. In MCOC, you assume the "role" of a person who directs the actual champions in the game. That isn't even a fictional role, that is literally what the real life players are actually doing. There's just the thinnest veneer of fictional wrapper around that role.

    The "role" of the summoner is more actualized in MROC if I understand that game correctly, but it is not a real role in MCOC in any game play or game design sense.

    As to the statement "RPG Requirements" that Kabam makes, that's Kabam talking about how the champions function and interact in the game. They aren't talking about the game acting in all respects like an RPG, they are talking about much more technical elements of typical RPG combat design. It is also as far as I'm aware of non-standard terminology, as the elements Kabam considers "RPG-like" aren't things I would call RPG-like except on a very general level. We don't normally say that a game like Mortal Combat has "RPG-like combat" but in the way Kabam uses the term, it does.
  • Options
    JadedJaded Posts: 5,476 ★★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    Texas_11 said:

    Lormif said:

    Texas_11 said:

    “always we strive to find effective ways to expand our offerings in quests, doing our best to involve and entertain a broad assortment of players. One of the better ways we’re looking to do this is by creating play spaces where a wider variety of Champions are effective, or where less-potent Champions get their due. This is collaborative, an effort that is shared by our incredible RPG Team, that continues to not only roll out exciting new Champions, but also give greatly-deserved updates to some older or underperforming ones. (I’ve seen some of the stuff they have planned, it’s exciting!)“

    “ We mentioned before that players have invested in the Champions they want to play, and we are going to do a better job of giving them more avenues to be used. However, respecting Player investment goes beyond Champions. It means being more transparent about what is fair to expect, and what is expected to be fair.

    The Energy Cost to complete a path in Book 2 will not exceed 70 Energy.
    The time required to complete a path is reduced as a part of reducing the scope of Quest Paths.
    RPG Requirements for fights will be loosened to open up more avenues for counterplay.”

    @Lormif

    Literally quotes from Kabam , tell me what is not RPG about this game?

    that there is no roleplay.
    “Players assume the role of a Summoner, tasked by The Collector to build a team of Marvel heroes and villains and pit them against one another in combat”

    A role-playing game is a game in which players assume the roles of characters in a fictional setting. Players take responsibility for acting out these roles within a narrative, either through literal acting, or through a process of structured decision-making regarding character development.

    Sounds like you are playing the role of a summoner. Good try
    And what character are you assuming the role of, in this game? The summoner isn't an entity that directly appears in this game in any functional sense. In an RPG or MMORPG, you are assuming the "role" of an actual character in the game. In MCOC, you assume the "role" of a person who directs the actual champions in the game. That isn't even a fictional role, that is literally what the real life players are actually doing. There's just the thinnest veneer of fictional wrapper around that role.

    The "role" of the summoner is more actualized in MROC if I understand that game correctly, but it is not a real role in MCOC in any game play or game design sense.

    As to the statement "RPG Requirements" that Kabam makes, that's Kabam talking about how the champions function and interact in the game. They aren't talking about the game acting in all respects like an RPG, they are talking about much more technical elements of typical RPG combat design. It is also as far as I'm aware of non-standard terminology, as the elements Kabam considers "RPG-like" aren't things I would call RPG-like except on a very general level. We don't normally say that a game like Mortal Combat has "RPG-like combat" but in the way Kabam uses the term, it does.
    🤔 that’s a great idea, we should have a “summoner” character to play with as well.
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    KalantakKalantak Posts: 1,291 ★★★★
    yeh i dont mind champs being buffed or corrected through synergies which could easily have been in their base kit but since synergies r way too go (last few months there were barely any powerful synergies though) we should be able to bring 4*s in act 6 . just like op i dnt have hyperion,corvus,ghost,domino,and many other and i rely on champs who may not b ideal but can get job done with few revives (like doing abyss with thor/fury) hoping overall nerf to act 6 comes soon and brings the news for eligibility of 4*s in act 6!
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