There is nothing wrong with tier lists. They are a tool one can use to help formulate good decisions. But they're just that a tool.
Individuals should absolutely make use of tools to make their lives easier. However, never lose sight of the idea that they are tools. They are not some code to crack the game. They are guides.
There are two types of people that give tier lists a bad name.
First, those who follow them religiously. Only the best of the best must be ranked and they wait endlessly for a select few champs. That makes for a miserable existence imo and it's just a game. Why play something to be miserable? And even more perplexing, you're making yourself miserable by doing so.
The second group consists of those who see absolutely no point to tier lists. Tools are tools. How you use them is entirely up to the individual.
Some try to use a screwdriver to hammer in a nail, while others would choose not to use a lighter to light a fire and freeze to death cause tools are bad mmmkay. Botg groups are equally bad imo.
It is OK to recognize the value of a tool without becoming completely reliant upon it. There is and should be middle ground when it comes to tier lists.
If this game were like Tekken or Street fighter where you just need to get good with your favourite character then tier lists would have no value but.... We have nodes, all sorts of abilities and then the characters own base attributes.
Add to that the need to get resources to rank up champs. At some point you want to try and make smart rank ups to help you progress in the game.
But tier list really just takes a champ and let’s you know is this champ overall good. I believe tier list gives you an idea of where a champion stands. But what ends up happening is we wait and wait and wait until we pull one of them.
I agree, my point was that after some time playing the game we generally figure out that we need a way of ranking the champs that are going to help us progress and tier lists are useful when you haven't spent much time using a champ.
Ideally we should spend time with the champs we get and understand where they will do well in the game. I think each champ will have a use somewhere but, sadly some will just be for war defense on a specific node.
Tier lists are just a structured way for someone to state their opinion. I don't think it is even a valid question to ask how the game would be without tier lists, because that's basically like asking if the game would be better if no one ever stated an opinion about which champs were better than others. That's probably an unknowable counterfactual.
I'm not saying tier lists are good or bad intrinsically. I'm just saying that it is impossible to comprehend a world where players aren't comparing champs to each other and stating that opinion, but still has actual players and an actual player community where the players discuss anything at all.
I stopped reading after a few posts, but I politely disagree.
Even without the advice of anyone else, people would find out (the hard way) that some of those champs are TRASH. And all on their own.
Could you find worth in any champ? Yes.
Would any Champ help in act 6 and beyond? No.
I personally thing that a lot more RDT posts would be made because of not having some advice.
Even on my over 1mil rating account, never took anyone up just because I was told they were “god”.
I remember getting quake, and not liking her. She was put on the shelf for months before I started using her little by little and seeing first hand her power.
I think tier lists are really helpful from an educational perspective. Especially early in the game, I based how good I thought characters were from how hard they were to fight. So IMIW was my pick for the greatest champ in the game until I actually pulled him and started playing him on offense, where he's good but not like S tier.
It's also nice to see what characters could become if you take the time to learn them. Like I never would have guessed that ghost or quake were the best champs available if I didn't see it on a tier list first. (I don't have either of them at anything higher than a 3*).
But I agree that people who treat tier lists like a bible are crazy. Mephisto was my first 5* and my first 6* so I know his playstyle better than almost any champ in the game and would take him over any mystic, except Doom, in 80% of matchups.
Creating systematic ways of organizing complex data is common. We do it in my field, they do it for theology, almost everything. My problem with tier lists is that they more or less define champions in relation to each other rather than to the continent. This is despite the fact that we all know that some champions can do the abyss, and some of them can do certain parts of act six, and some of them are better for act five. I suppose it is unclear though how to get newer players to think of those terms rather than tier lists? Or if that would necessarily make the game more fun?
As stated by many people above, the tier lists are not inherently bad or good, it is what people choose to do with that information/opinion. I would argue that the prestige system has done more harm that tier lists. Sure, sometimes high prestige and a quality champ match up. But you have had folks rank up champs that they will barely use, solely based on prestige...and have had folks kicked from their alliances for their rank up decisions not prioritizing it.
I suppose it is unclear though how to get newer players to think of those terms rather than tier lists?
It will be interesting to see how tier lists evolve as the game progresses into Book 2 and beyond. We could almost get away with looking at champions linearly up to about Act 5 or so, where "god tier champs" tended to be good for the vast majority of content. But increasingly the content is being designed around circumstantial fights that strongly benefit certain counters. Champions that can counter more troublesome situations are becoming more prized than champs that are good in general. How you encapsulate that kind of information in a linear tier list will be an interesting long term challenge for those that are connoisseurs of that kind of thing.
Here is my honest opinion, in mid - late game tier lists do hurt the players bc they are stuck to that mentality of oh x-23 is only c tier that was an awful 6 star pull, when in reality she can be used for many things like aq, incursions, and certain nodes in questing, is the best, hell no, but seeing her as a worthless pull also is a waste of her.
Now for early game players that are just getting their first few 4 star rank up options, yes tier lists are great, however the creators should start putting in notes as to why each one is ranked where it is to help a player understand why its rated there, how they can potentially use them, and if maybe someone from a lower tier is more useful for them at their current stage
Tier list strongest benefit is getting the most mileage out of your resources and rank up material. Sure you could rank up Ebony Maw because you think he's fun to use and can serve a purpous such as defeating act 6 Champion boss, but there are clearly better options lol.
The significance of this is if you have the skills to back your rank ups it’s no problem, looking at Swedeah, but a majority of the player base just aren’t at that level so it would potential hinder their progress. A big part of this game isn’t always making the fun rank ups, but the wise and sometimes necessary ones.
Here is my honest opinion, in mid - late game tier lists do hurt the players bc they are stuck to that mentality of oh x-23 is only c tier that was an awful 6 star pull, when in reality she can be used for many things like aq, incursions, and certain nodes in questing, is the best, hell no, but seeing her as a worthless pull also is a waste of her.
Now for early game players that are just getting their first few 4 star rank up options, yes tier lists are great, however the creators should start putting in notes as to why each one is ranked where it is to help a player understand why its rated there, how they can potentially use them, and if maybe someone from a lower tier is more useful for them at their current stage
If people start testing a champ 1st and then come to a conclusion , would help them to enjoy the game. If this game affects your mood due to a "bad pull" because a champ is not highly rated then those people should quit right away.
It isn’t possible for Tier lists to ruin your enjoyment - you either don’t follow them and thus enjoy game as you are predisposed to do, or you follow tier lists and enjoy the games as the lists say you should. Either way, your enjoyment of the game is still in line with how you think of the game
Tier list won't exhist once KABAM make every champ usable for doing some damange with respect to act 5 fights. That will end the conflict. Every champ has some use. Ex. Falcon he has damage now. Good for evade champs. Ex. New Players pulling gambit and punisher 2099 as back to back 5 star can clear out act 5 content too. That is the goal. Make everyone useful. Versatile roster is what players need. Learn about the comics. Rank up your favourite champ and also use them on tough senario. Enjoy the game. User friendly.
The more realistic answer is that Tier lists are important due to the RNG aspect of the game, in terms of managing your rank up resources based on what you are lucky to pull.
Unlike other games with tier lists, like Super Smash bros or Overwatch, you don’t miss out on much if you focus on a “low tier” champion.
In Contest of Champions, if you choose to rank the champions you enjoy playing, you might end up with a team of Joe Fixit, Iron patriot, and Howard the Duck as R5. If you do Alliances, they are gonna criticize you, which can ruin your enjoyment of the game. You are going to struggle to complete content, which also ruins your enjoyment.
Having said that, once you are over the hump (probably Cavalier level), then yes, tier lists become meaningless.
There would be no significant change IMO. Bad champs are bad champs and people will always underestimate champions they don't have enough knowledge on. Streamers would continue to use the very best champions in clearing content. Same champions will be suggested for speed runs and war. Most people love damage, some people like utility, no one likes a slugfest and no one likes a convoluted rotation in order to make a champion viable.
The more realistic answer is that Tier lists are important due to the RNG aspect of the game, in terms of managing your rank up resources based on what you are lucky to pull.
Unlike other games with tier lists, like Super Smash bros or Overwatch, you don’t miss out on much if you focus on a “low tier” champion.
In Contest of Champions, if you choose to rank the champions you enjoy playing, you might end up with a team of Joe Fixit, Iron patriot, and Howard the Duck as R5. If you do Alliances, they are gonna criticize you, which can ruin your enjoyment of the game. You are going to struggle to complete content, which also ruins your enjoyment.
Having said that, once you are over the hump (probably Cavalier level), then yes, tier lists become meaningless.
Tier Lists are a rating based on personal opinion. They're not an official guide to Champions. As with any opinions, they should be taken with a grain of salt. The issue is that people adhere to them religiously, and it undermines a great deal of value, ironically. There's no substitute for making choices and spending time getting to know Champs ourselves.
In Contest of Champions, if you choose to rank the champions you enjoy playing, you might end up with a team of Joe Fixit, Iron patriot, and Howard the Duck as R5. If you do Alliances, they are gonna criticize you, which can ruin your enjoyment of the game. You are going to struggle to complete content, which also ruins your enjoyment.
If they manage to get those champs to rank 5 and are still having a blast playing the game, I don't think they are going to be having a ton of trouble with content difficulty ruining their enjoyment of the game. They are either having fun autofighting their way through the daily catalyst events, or they are the greatest player on Earth trolling the playerbase with their second account.
I honestly feel like Seatin’s tier list was a bad thing. No hate against him, it’s just so many people act like his tier list is a bible and he’s mcoc jesus (which he isn’t, that’s karatemike)
I mean, he does specifically state in his videos that they are his opinions and just that and that he made it to try and help newer players initially to save them from spending resoures on champ's that won't have as much long term use. Is it a perfect list, no. Is it way off either, no. players have different goals and likes too. However, he also show cases a lot of characters in specific content to.
Karate Mike is great too. But not everyone likes suicides and he's in big favor of them. I go back and forth, but hate having to drop units for changing them. There are a lot of champ's that benefit from throwing specials and even though they hit harder, if they can't throw specials, they aren't actually doing more damage to make it worth while.
Just an example of 2 different play styles, show cased by 2 different youtubers, both which highlight different pros and cons. Neither is gospel, but both are great sources of information for players to check out. Along with many others...
Tier lists are like God: if it didn't exist, they would be made up. Rankings originate because things are never equal, so there is always something that is better or worse. The tier lists try to make a complex matter turn into something straightforward. They are not without fault, as Seatin says: they are a rough guide.
Tier lists were never created with ill intent, so I never understand it when people talk about them as if they're personal attacks.
They have the advantage of being really useful to progressing players to build on their general game knowledge. I agree on the disadvantage being some people rank up strictly based on tier lists.
Excellent analogy by @TitoBandito187 . Think of them as a review of a product. You pull a champion and want to see what other people think of this champion to then formulate your own opinion. That's where you'd seek a tier list. Same way you would for something you're looking to buy. At the end of the day you've got to keep in mind that these are just opinions.
I disagree. Tier lists are made for experienced players, not progressing players. Quake or Ghost are useless champions for the unskilled. Seatin's tier lists assumes you've access to the sig ability, at high level, with the necessary synergies and skill level. Once you don't meet those requirements, so called beyond god tier champions become beyond thrash tiers.
Tier lists were never created with ill intent, so I never understand it when people talk about them as if they're personal attacks.
They have the advantage of being really useful to progressing players to build on their general game knowledge. I agree on the disadvantage being some people rank up strictly based on tier lists.
Excellent analogy by @TitoBandito187 . Think of them as a review of a product. You pull a champion and want to see what other people think of this champion to then formulate your own opinion. That's where you'd seek a tier list. Same way you would for something you're looking to buy. At the end of the day you've got to keep in mind that these are just opinions.
I disagree. Tier lists are made for experienced players, not progressing players. Quake or Ghost are useless champions for the unskilled. Seatin's tier lists assumes you've access to the sig ability, at high level, with the necessary synergies and skill level. Once you don't meet those requirements, so called beyond god tier champions become beyond thrash tiers.
I don't believe that is how Seatin describes his tier list. They've evolved over time, and as time as gone on he's done things like added qualifiers to his champion tier spreadsheet to alert players to things like champions that require synergies or high skill levels or signature ability awakened, so players can make those kinds of decisions for themselves, specifically to help guide players that may not have strong familiarity with how the champs work. I think he considers the spreadsheet a good starting point for players of any progression level, but just that: a starting point from which they should make their own decisions after looking into the champions.
Comments
Individuals should absolutely make use of tools to make their lives easier. However, never lose sight of the idea that they are tools. They are not some code to crack the game. They are guides.
There are two types of people that give tier lists a bad name.
First, those who follow them religiously. Only the best of the best must be ranked and they wait endlessly for a select few champs. That makes for a miserable existence imo and it's just a game. Why play something to be miserable? And even more perplexing, you're making yourself miserable by doing so.
The second group consists of those who see absolutely no point to tier lists. Tools are tools. How you use them is entirely up to the individual.
Some try to use a screwdriver to hammer in a nail, while others would choose not to use a lighter to light a fire and freeze to death cause tools are bad mmmkay. Botg groups are equally bad imo.
It is OK to recognize the value of a tool without becoming completely reliant upon it. There is and should be middle ground when it comes to tier lists.
Ideally we should spend time with the champs we get and understand where they will do well in the game. I think each champ will have a use somewhere but, sadly some will just be for war defense on a specific node.
I'm not saying tier lists are good or bad intrinsically. I'm just saying that it is impossible to comprehend a world where players aren't comparing champs to each other and stating that opinion, but still has actual players and an actual player community where the players discuss anything at all.
Even without the advice of anyone else, people would find out (the hard way) that some of those champs are TRASH. And all on their own.
Could you find worth in any champ? Yes.
Would any Champ help in act 6 and beyond? No.
I personally thing that a lot more RDT posts would be made because of not having some advice.
Even on my over 1mil rating account, never took anyone up just because I was told they were “god”.
I remember getting quake, and not liking her. She was put on the shelf for months before I started using her little by little and seeing first hand her power.
It's also nice to see what characters could become if you take the time to learn them. Like I never would have guessed that ghost or quake were the best champs available if I didn't see it on a tier list first. (I don't have either of them at anything higher than a 3*).
But I agree that people who treat tier lists like a bible are crazy. Mephisto was my first 5* and my first 6* so I know his playstyle better than almost any champ in the game and would take him over any mystic, except Doom, in 80% of matchups.
Now for early game players that are just getting their first few 4 star rank up options, yes tier lists are great, however the creators should start putting in notes as to why each one is ranked where it is to help a player understand why its rated there, how they can potentially use them, and if maybe someone from a lower tier is more useful for them at their current stage
The significance of this is if you have the skills to back your rank ups it’s no problem, looking at Swedeah, but a majority of the player base just aren’t at that level so it would potential hinder their progress. A big part of this game isn’t always making the fun rank ups, but the wise and sometimes necessary ones.
That will end the conflict.
Every champ has some use.
Ex. Falcon he has damage now. Good for evade champs.
Ex. New Players pulling gambit and punisher 2099 as back to back 5 star can clear out act 5 content too.
That is the goal. Make everyone useful.
Versatile roster is what players need.
Learn about the comics. Rank up your favourite champ and also use them on tough senario. Enjoy the game.
User friendly.
Unlike other games with tier lists, like Super Smash bros or Overwatch, you don’t miss out on much if you focus on a “low tier” champion.
In Contest of Champions, if you choose to rank the champions you enjoy playing, you might end up with a team of Joe Fixit, Iron patriot, and Howard the Duck as R5. If you do Alliances, they are gonna criticize you, which can ruin your enjoyment of the game. You are going to struggle to complete content, which also ruins your enjoyment.
Having said that, once you are over the hump (probably Cavalier level), then yes, tier lists become meaningless.
Karate Mike is great too. But not everyone likes suicides and he's in big favor of them. I go back and forth, but hate having to drop units for changing them. There are a lot of champ's that benefit from throwing specials and even though they hit harder, if they can't throw specials, they aren't actually doing more damage to make it worth while.
Just an example of 2 different play styles, show cased by 2 different youtubers, both which highlight different pros and cons. Neither is gospel, but both are great sources of information for players to check out. Along with many others...