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If utility>damage, then is Bishop>Domino?

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    Hammerbro_64Hammerbro_64 Posts: 7,463 ★★★★★
    I can respect that @Rockypantherx
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    KDSuperFlash10KDSuperFlash10 Posts: 5,869 ★★★★★

    Utility is great but damage is how you win fights at the end of the day (of course unless it’s something with strict requirements like diss track or buffed up).

    Well, yes and no. Of course you need damage to finish a fight. Can’t beat a fight if you have spider gwens old SP1 for every attack

    I’m of the opinion that there is a threshold for damage. A champ like Ebony Maw doesn’t get used because they have no damage. Not because he can’t do fights, it’s just that you spend so long in them that your chances of slipping up due to boredom grow exponentially.

    However, once a champ has a respectable level of damage output, say Killmonger or Claire, at that point, that’s when utility becomes the prevailing factor. That’s what makes a champ good after that point

    Fights in this game are like a puzzle. You have to find a counter to champion abilities and nodes. Now, damage very rarely the key to solve these puzzles. No node reads ‘deal 5000 damage in one hit to do X’.

    Utility is how you solve the fights in this game. Damage, if you like, is the auxiliary solution. It’s generally never the intended solution, nor is it typically the most effective. It tends to be the payoff, as we’ve seen in act 7.

    That’s what the whole domino debate is really about. What makes a champion good? Is it their ability to push through problems, or is it to actually solve them?

    Domino might be able to burst through a tricky fight, but that’s only going to get you so far. Eventually there is going to be a door you can’t just blast your way through. You’ll need the key.

    That’s why I think utility is more important than damage. All champions deal damage. Any key named ‘damage’ can be reasonably done by most champs. But a key named ‘bleed immunity’ or ‘evade counter’ is not going to be covered by every champ. Never mind the doors with multiple locks.

    I think you get many more keys out of investing in a utility champ over a damage champ.

    Is bishop better than domino? No. Clearly not. His utility isn’t particularly strong or practical. And his damage is sub par to dominos. Plus he kills himself. The OG Ihulk.

    But there’s a reason I took Emma Frost to R3 over domino, Sabretooth, even colossus. Those champs have a lot of damage. But Emma has utility. Lots of it. And when it comes down to it, I would rather have an arsenal of utility over high damage.

    Not to say high damage champs are bad, they clearly aren’t. They might kill an iron fist in 10 seconds, but they might not be able to kill a Hyperion, or Modok without resorting to burst and revives.

    Thank you for coming to my ted talk
    This was so well written.
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    007md92007md92 Posts: 1,381 ★★★★
    Bishop bomb!
    I love this character
    I love off beat characters that nobody rank ups
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    Sarvanga1_Sarvanga1_ Posts: 4,139 ★★★★★
    @Rockypantherx what you wrote was pretty good but you are just shrugging off the fact that she does fill in the gaps of many people. Sometimes the champ's playstyle makes the champ viable for the nodes they shouldn't be viable for. Domino's playstyle works just like that.

    You took electro for example. You just need 1 crit bleed and the fight will be over pretty quick. Also her special damage is pretty good. I don't know why it is hindering to use her. I have done v4 electro with her and it's not as bad as you are making it out.

    Domino has always been used with her synergies. There are very few fights you would want to do with her without synergies. So what if she counters void with the synergies and also zergs everybody else in the path as well.

    You can find more utility points and matchups if you use her. I have found her useful in many places in act 6 and 7.

    There is only one champ that does something best. That doesn't mean you ignore all the other options.

    I know she is not the best champ. Not even close to it. But saying that she is useless and comparing garbage champs with her is not right.
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    GreekhitGreekhit Posts: 2,819 ★★★★★
    Etjama said:

    I know this is satire (at least I hope), because what Bishop can do in 50 hits Domino can do in 20 with no ramp up.

    It doesn’t matter if you have all the utility in the world if you can quite literally nuke down the enemies health before any danger comes up. In RoL I did 78k damage before he reached 1 bar of power.

    I quit the fight as soon as he reached a bar of power and the incinerate expired.

    I can’t tell you how many times there has been a tough Cav or UC (when my account was smaller) boss that I took Hype or G2099 and put them down before the nodes had a chance to screw with me.

    Utility is great but damage is how you win fights at the end of the day (of course unless it’s something with strict requirements like diss track or buffed up).

    No. I agree Domino is better than Bishop but Utility is much more important. It's why Quake is the best champ in the game, it's not CGR. You may be able to burst down an EQ boss, but I'd love to see you use Domino on any restrictive paths in Act 6.
    Domino shines in icarus, do not go gentle nodes and 6.2.3 6.2.4 bosses.
    These aren’t the most restrictive Act6 nodes or bosses, but that doesn’t negate the fact that Domino makes them a joke.
    The question is: apart from couple of paths in Act6 where else you can even use Bishop, except for AW defense and arena?
    Stating Bishop has more utility than Domino is at least laughable, same as is comparing these two champs.
    Domino is still amongst top mutants, and a champ that anyone would be happy to pull as 5* or 6*.
    Even all those who praise champs like Bishop over her, they would take in a instant a 6* Domino instead of a 6* Bishop.
    If someone doesn’t like her is ok, but saying meme tier champs like Bishop are better is plain stupidity at this point 🙂
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    RockypantherxRockypantherx Posts: 3,900 ★★★★★

    @Rockypantherx what you wrote was pretty good but you are just shrugging off the fact that she does fill in the gaps of many people. Sometimes the champ's playstyle makes the champ viable for the nodes they shouldn't be viable for. Domino's playstyle works just like that.

    You took electro for example. You just need 1 crit bleed and the fight will be over pretty quick. Also her special damage is pretty good. I don't know why it is hindering to use her. I have done v4 electro with her and it's not as bad as you are making it out.

    Domino has always been used with her synergies. There are very few fights you would want to do with her without synergies. So what if she counters void with the synergies and also zergs everybody else in the path as well.

    You can find more utility points and matchups if you use her. I have found her useful in many places in act 6 and 7.

    There is only one champ that does something best. That doesn't mean you ignore all the other options.

    I know she is not the best champ. Not even close to it. But saying that she is useless and comparing garbage champs with her is not right.

    At what point did I say she was useless or compared her to garbage champs. That was KD, which I don’t agree with

    If you use her, great. I’m glad she’s blasting down doors for you. But I don’t think you could deny that she loses more and more value as a roster develops.

    And of course she can do things in act 6/7. Act 7 isn’t difficult. And you would need to specify what paths in act 6. Pull and selective timestream I can see being a niche path she would work for

    I will say that I consider reliance on synergies a hinderance. Less so in act 7, but it’s still spots in your team that could be filled by alternative options
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    EtjamaEtjama Posts: 7,981 ★★★★★
    edited January 2021
    Greekhit said:

    Etjama said:

    I know this is satire (at least I hope), because what Bishop can do in 50 hits Domino can do in 20 with no ramp up.

    It doesn’t matter if you have all the utility in the world if you can quite literally nuke down the enemies health before any danger comes up. In RoL I did 78k damage before he reached 1 bar of power.

    I quit the fight as soon as he reached a bar of power and the incinerate expired.

    I can’t tell you how many times there has been a tough Cav or UC (when my account was smaller) boss that I took Hype or G2099 and put them down before the nodes had a chance to screw with me.

    Utility is great but damage is how you win fights at the end of the day (of course unless it’s something with strict requirements like diss track or buffed up).

    No. I agree Domino is better than Bishop but Utility is much more important. It's why Quake is the best champ in the game, it's not CGR. You may be able to burst down an EQ boss, but I'd love to see you use Domino on any restrictive paths in Act 6.
    Domino shines in icarus, do not go gentle nodes and 6.2.3 6.2.4 bosses.
    These aren’t the most restrictive Act6 nodes or bosses, but that doesn’t negate the fact that Domino makes them a joke.
    The question is: apart from couple of paths in Act6 where else you can even use Bishop, except for AW defense and arena?
    Stating Bishop has more utility than Domino is at least laughable, same as is comparing these two champs.
    Domino is still amongst top mutants, and a champ that anyone would be happy to pull as 5* or 6*.
    Even all those who praise champs like Bishop over her, they would take in a instant a 6* Domino instead of a 6* Bishop.
    If someone doesn’t like her is ok, but saying meme tier champs like Bishop are better is plain stupidity at this point 🙂
    Lol, I don't think Bishop is better than Domino. He's not. But Domino is not a top Mutant and she doesn't have valuable or reliable utility. You can go ahead and say that "Anyone would be happy to pull her as a 5 or 6* and anyone would take Domino over him." but I honestly would take a 6* Bishop. Why? A Domino would do nothing for my account, she doesn't have any utility that I need whatsoever so she would stay at R1 lvl 1 and only be used in arena. Bishop at least has the potential to be buffed and become useful to me later.
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    Sarvanga1_Sarvanga1_ Posts: 4,139 ★★★★★

    @Rockypantherx what you wrote was pretty good but you are just shrugging off the fact that she does fill in the gaps of many people. Sometimes the champ's playstyle makes the champ viable for the nodes they shouldn't be viable for. Domino's playstyle works just like that.

    You took electro for example. You just need 1 crit bleed and the fight will be over pretty quick. Also her special damage is pretty good. I don't know why it is hindering to use her. I have done v4 electro with her and it's not as bad as you are making it out.

    Domino has always been used with her synergies. There are very few fights you would want to do with her without synergies. So what if she counters void with the synergies and also zergs everybody else in the path as well.

    You can find more utility points and matchups if you use her. I have found her useful in many places in act 6 and 7.

    There is only one champ that does something best. That doesn't mean you ignore all the other options.

    I know she is not the best champ. Not even close to it. But saying that she is useless and comparing garbage champs with her is not right.

    At what point did I say she was useless or compared her to garbage champs. That was KD, which I don’t agree with

    If you use her, great. I’m glad she’s blasting down doors for you. But I don’t think you could deny that she loses more and more value as a roster develops.

    And of course she can do things in act 6/7. Act 7 isn’t difficult. And you would need to specify what paths in act 6. Pull and selective timestream I can see being a niche path she would work for

    I will say that I consider reliance on synergies a hinderance. Less so in act 7, but it’s still spots in your team that could be filled by alternative options
    Yeah I accept that reliance on synergies is a hinderance but if she is killing most of the champs on the path then it's not like that bad.
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    EtjamaEtjama Posts: 7,981 ★★★★★
    Well my comment was sent to the Abyss of Approval, but @Sarvanga1_, not if there are 20 other champs that do what she does better. People love to bring up situations where you want to use a parry-heavy playstyle and how good she is for it, but why bring 2 synergy partners to make her a good option when you've got OR, AA, Mags, Havok, Colossus all in that same class alone, not to mention all the other options?

    And Electro, why would you use her when you can only throw ML combos, only to do low damage and take some damage back anyways? Sure, she can potentially work, but OR, AA, Mags, Havok, Prof X all work so much better. Again, in the Mutant class alone.
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    RockypantherxRockypantherx Posts: 3,900 ★★★★★

    @Rockypantherx what you wrote was pretty good but you are just shrugging off the fact that she does fill in the gaps of many people. Sometimes the champ's playstyle makes the champ viable for the nodes they shouldn't be viable for. Domino's playstyle works just like that.

    You took electro for example. You just need 1 crit bleed and the fight will be over pretty quick. Also her special damage is pretty good. I don't know why it is hindering to use her. I have done v4 electro with her and it's not as bad as you are making it out.

    Domino has always been used with her synergies. There are very few fights you would want to do with her without synergies. So what if she counters void with the synergies and also zergs everybody else in the path as well.

    You can find more utility points and matchups if you use her. I have found her useful in many places in act 6 and 7.

    There is only one champ that does something best. That doesn't mean you ignore all the other options.

    I know she is not the best champ. Not even close to it. But saying that she is useless and comparing garbage champs with her is not right.

    At what point did I say she was useless or compared her to garbage champs. That was KD, which I don’t agree with

    If you use her, great. I’m glad she’s blasting down doors for you. But I don’t think you could deny that she loses more and more value as a roster develops.

    And of course she can do things in act 6/7. Act 7 isn’t difficult. And you would need to specify what paths in act 6. Pull and selective timestream I can see being a niche path she would work for

    I will say that I consider reliance on synergies a hinderance. Less so in act 7, but it’s still spots in your team that could be filled by alternative options
    Yeah I accept that reliance on synergies is a hinderance but if she is killing most of the champs on the path then it's not like that bad.
    Depends on the path I guess. Certainly in act 6 you need a boss counter. Do you have 4 team spits for the whole path. That leaves a spare spot.

    Which is fine I guess as long as she can cover pretty much all of them. I’m just doubtful how many paths that actually is thinking back on act 6. Obviously there are the ‘easy paths’ but I don’t think any champ gets credit for doing them.
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    Hammerbro_64Hammerbro_64 Posts: 7,463 ★★★★★
    edited January 2021

    This is sort of what @Rockypantherx is saying. I've plotted content difficulty against viable amounts of each damage and utility. Initially there isn't much need for utility because stuff isn't hard, but as you get further down the line damage only does so much for you because paths require the same type of counter.

    Preemptive edit: don't mind the scale of the graph, its meant to represent relative amounts and difficulties, not specific
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    RockypantherxRockypantherx Posts: 3,900 ★★★★★


    This is sort of what @Rockypantherx is saying. I've plotted content difficulty against viable amounts of each damage and utility. Initially there isn't much need for utility because stuff isn't hard, but as you get further down the line damage only does so much for you because paths require the same type of counter.

    Preemptive edit: don't mind the scale of the graph, its meant to represent relative amounts and difficulties, not specific

    Hammer you are my new favourite person. This is exactly it. Thank you.
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    Sarvanga1_Sarvanga1_ Posts: 4,139 ★★★★★
    Etjama said:

    Well my comment was sent to the Abyss of Approval, but @Sarvanga1_, not if there are 20 other champs that do what she does better. People love to bring up situations where you want to use a parry-heavy playstyle and how good she is for it, but why bring 2 synergy partners to make her a good option when you've got OR, AA, Mags, Havok, Colossus all in that same class alone, not to mention all the other options?

    And Electro, why would you use her when you can only throw ML combos, only to do low damage and take some damage back anyways? Sure, she can potentially work, but OR, AA, Mags, Havok, Prof X all work so much better. Again, in the Mutant class alone.

    I am not saying to use her over anyone. I am just saying that she works.
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    Sarvanga1_Sarvanga1_ Posts: 4,139 ★★★★★


    This is sort of what @Rockypantherx is saying. I've plotted content difficulty against viable amounts of each damage and utility. Initially there isn't much need for utility because stuff isn't hard, but as you get further down the line damage only does so much for you because paths require the same type of counter.

    Preemptive edit: don't mind the scale of the graph, its meant to represent relative amounts and difficulties, not specific

    What is the function of both the graphs? I thought that the blue one was x^2 at first glance but it is not that.
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    KDSuperFlash10KDSuperFlash10 Posts: 5,869 ★★★★★


    This is sort of what @Rockypantherx is saying. I've plotted content difficulty against viable amounts of each damage and utility. Initially there isn't much need for utility because stuff isn't hard, but as you get further down the line damage only does so much for you because paths require the same type of counter.

    Preemptive edit: don't mind the scale of the graph, its meant to represent relative amounts and difficulties, not specific

    This is beautiful.
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    Hammerbro_64Hammerbro_64 Posts: 7,463 ★★★★★


    This is sort of what @Rockypantherx is saying. I've plotted content difficulty against viable amounts of each damage and utility. Initially there isn't much need for utility because stuff isn't hard, but as you get further down the line damage only does so much for you because paths require the same type of counter.

    Preemptive edit: don't mind the scale of the graph, its meant to represent relative amounts and difficulties, not specific

    What is the function of both the graphs? I thought that the blue one was x^2 at first glance but it is not that.
    Oh I deleted it a while ago but I think blue is

    cx^2 with c being something less than 1

    And red is

    -d/(x-b) +a with all of the constants being something I can’t remember lol. One of them was 6.7

    There are cleaner functions to express it, but I wanted the general shape quickly.
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    DualityCopeDualityCope Posts: 433 ★★★
    edited January 2021
    o
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    ANGRYEAGLEANGRYEAGLE Posts: 149
    They need to up the volume on Bishop's guns.
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    My opinion: Bishop hasn't gotten much attention for a while, and now he deserves it. ESPECIALLY against a 15% AAR Mutant with low utility/attack/resistances!
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