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They Killed YellowJacket

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Comments

  • WOLF_LINKWOLF_LINK Posts: 728 ★★★
    Yeah, with that Slow and everything I really appreciate this Buff.

    While Kingpin kinda just became another DD (HK) with his nerfed base healing. Seems like that‘s the new Meta for Skill Reworks.
  • Andyball270Andyball270 Posts: 303 ★★★
    Etjama said:

    Etjama said:

    I see a lot of people disagreeing with the OP on this but I took him for a few whirls and he really is just about as useless as before. Let’s talk about his damage and utility.

    Damage: I’m guessing Etjama got a 50K power sting from throwing a SP3 and an SP1 to get 4 total power stings, including a big one from the SP3. This aligns with him having a 60-hit combo I think. If I’m wrong, Etjama can correct me, but isn’t it concerning that a 5/65 YJ with suicides and class advantage has had to throw 60 hits so far and only took down 36% health from RoL Juggs? I dunno about y’all but a true damage dealer would have done way more damage much more quickly. Definitely not a damage champ in my books so what about utility.

    Utility: In addition to his power stings, there are only two other pieces of utility here. Energy resistance and petrify. That’s it. Idk why he’s hyped as being a utility champ cuz all he can do now is take a lot less energy damage and, for 15 seconds only after every SP2, reduce and often reverse healing and power gain. Considering the petrify usually falls off between SP2s, I think there are much better options for both consistently reversing regen, like Mags, HT and Void, and for consistently reducing power gainers, like Void, Doc Oc or a good nullifier.

    I’m not taking my 6* YJ into anything in the future based on this. He’s only slightly better, but for a champ whose buff was supposed to be an actual kit rework, he adds nothing to the game that someone (or multiple someones) can’t do better.

    That ss wasn't mine, it was Kam's, but that damage can go up even more with nuclear charges and sure, you need to get up to the Sp3 but then the power sting stays active for the rest of the fight at max sig. From there on out, it's just going to be Sp1 spam and you're getting that damage on every special they throw. He's obviously not a pure damage dealer but the damage is great!

    As for the utility, he has tons. One of the best regen rate modifications in the game, one of the highest energy resistances, a really long slow on his heavy and yes, the Petrify and power stings. How is ignoring healing, unstoppable, evade, and power gain not a lot of utility?
    His slow is not "really long". Just saying
    It's easy to keep 100% uptime which makes it long enough for me, don't know why it wouldn't be long enough for anyone else.
    I didnt say it was difficult to maintain. You said it was "really long". And it isnt.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 29,291 ★★★★★

    I see a lot of people disagreeing with the OP on this but I took him for a few whirls and he really is just about as useless as before. Let’s talk about his damage and utility.

    Damage: I’m guessing Etjama got a 50K power sting from throwing a SP3 and an SP1 to get 4 total power stings, including a big one from the SP3. This aligns with him having a 60-hit combo I think. If I’m wrong, Etjama can correct me, but isn’t it concerning that a 5/65 YJ with suicides and class advantage has had to throw 60 hits so far and only took down 36% health from RoL Juggs? I dunno about y’all but a true damage dealer would have done way more damage much more quickly. Definitely not a damage champ in my books so what about utility.

    Utility: In addition to his power stings, there are only two other pieces of utility here. Energy resistance and petrify. That’s it. Idk why he’s hyped as being a utility champ cuz all he can do now is take a lot less energy damage and, for 15 seconds only after every SP2, reduce and often reverse healing and power gain. Considering the petrify usually falls off between SP2s, I think there are much better options for both consistently reversing regen, like Mags, HT and Void, and for consistently reducing power gainers, like Void, Doc Oc or a good nullifier.

    I’m not taking my 6* YJ into anything in the future based on this. He’s only slightly better, but for a champ whose buff was supposed to be an actual kit rework, he adds nothing to the game that someone (or multiple someones) can’t do better.

    He wasn't supposed to do anything better than others. Not specifically. He was supposed to be better than he was.
    Ok well that was an incredibly low bar that Kabam just barely cleared so mission accomplished I guess?
    That may be the case when Champs are particularly low to begin with, but I'm just making the point that these buffs aren't likely done with the idea of making them "the best" at anything. While it's true that looking at the overall data is part of it, the objective is to moderately add more usefulness, in comparison to how they are originally. Not necessarily to persuade people to Rank them over others. It's the difference between "better" and "better than".
  • Batty_NumppoBatty_Numppo Posts: 279 ★★
    Etjama said:

    Etjama said:

    I see a lot of people disagreeing with the OP on this but I took him for a few whirls and he really is just about as useless as before. Let’s talk about his damage and utility.

    Damage: I’m guessing Etjama got a 50K power sting from throwing a SP3 and an SP1 to get 4 total power stings, including a big one from the SP3. This aligns with him having a 60-hit combo I think. If I’m wrong, Etjama can correct me, but isn’t it concerning that a 5/65 YJ with suicides and class advantage has had to throw 60 hits so far and only took down 36% health from RoL Juggs? I dunno about y’all but a true damage dealer would have done way more damage much more quickly. Definitely not a damage champ in my books so what about utility.

    Utility: In addition to his power stings, there are only two other pieces of utility here. Energy resistance and petrify. That’s it. Idk why he’s hyped as being a utility champ cuz all he can do now is take a lot less energy damage and, for 15 seconds only after every SP2, reduce and often reverse healing and power gain. Considering the petrify usually falls off between SP2s, I think there are much better options for both consistently reversing regen, like Mags, HT and Void, and for consistently reducing power gainers, like Void, Doc Oc or a good nullifier.

    I’m not taking my 6* YJ into anything in the future based on this. He’s only slightly better, but for a champ whose buff was supposed to be an actual kit rework, he adds nothing to the game that someone (or multiple someones) can’t do better.

    That ss wasn't mine, it was Kam's, but that damage can go up even more with nuclear charges and sure, you need to get up to the Sp3 but then the power sting stays active for the rest of the fight at max sig. From there on out, it's just going to be Sp1 spam and you're getting that damage on every special they throw. He's obviously not a pure damage dealer but the damage is great!

    As for the utility, he has tons. One of the best regen rate modifications in the game, one of the highest energy resistances, a really long slow on his heavy and yes, the Petrify and power stings. How is ignoring healing, unstoppable, evade, and power gain not a lot of utility?
    I forgot about the slow, since for some reason they made it a solo synergy only affecting himself (not sure how that differs from a base ability?) but it’s still not an amazing slow debuff. My real point is that there are a lot of champs that can do what he can do even better, while also dealing a LOT more damage.
    I have no idea why they didn't just put the slow in his base kit, but what are you talking about? It's a great slow debuff. It's only 2 seconds less than She-Hulk's. And he quite honestly deals with non-reversable healing better than almost any champ other than Warlock, but unlike Warlock, he actually can reverse healing too. Plus power stings, preventing power gain, and top 3 energy resistance in the game. Since he does need max sig for the damage, I'm fine with people saying it's not great, but he so obviously has lots of utility.
    A 10 second slow debuff at the expense of 10 charges doesn’t seem manageable to me for a whole fight. Haven’t played with this new part of his kit yet so I could be wrong, but this means having to get in like 15-20 hits to regain the 10 charges you spend with every heavy, which doesn’t seem realistic within a 10-second window to keep it up forever. If it’s unstoppable I’m dealing with, Ill go with Stealthy and She Hulk every day, both of whom deal so much more damage. If it’s evade... honestly there are just a ton of great evade counters so this is hardly a shining part for me. Maybe that’s why they stuck it in a synergy instead.
  • Andyball270Andyball270 Posts: 303 ★★★
    edited February 2021
    Etjama said:

    @Andyball270 it gets the point across. It's easy to maintain 100% uptime so it's obviously a good slow mechanic.

    I think there are a lot better slow mechanics on a lot better champs to be honest. For me the heal reversal is probably the most useful addition. I wouldnt have minded seeing a lot more damage during overload and a longer duration. And maybe a way to refresh the power stings on the sp1 somehow. I think hes pretty underwhelming. Dont expect every buff to be magneto level but i think something to the level of maybe hulkbuster or falcon/gambit for at least one of the 4 would have been nice. I had really high hopes for yj but not delivered for me im afraid
  • Andyball270Andyball270 Posts: 303 ★★★

    His sp3 power sting should have just been a permanent thing that could stack. His sig ability should have been a way to boost his damage like a fury effect similar to Mojo's.

    Yeah i dont think anybody was before (or will be after) pumping sigs into him.
  • Batty_NumppoBatty_Numppo Posts: 279 ★★

    I see a lot of people disagreeing with the OP on this but I took him for a few whirls and he really is just about as useless as before. Let’s talk about his damage and utility.

    Damage: I’m guessing Etjama got a 50K power sting from throwing a SP3 and an SP1 to get 4 total power stings, including a big one from the SP3. This aligns with him having a 60-hit combo I think. If I’m wrong, Etjama can correct me, but isn’t it concerning that a 5/65 YJ with suicides and class advantage has had to throw 60 hits so far and only took down 36% health from RoL Juggs? I dunno about y’all but a true damage dealer would have done way more damage much more quickly. Definitely not a damage champ in my books so what about utility.

    Utility: In addition to his power stings, there are only two other pieces of utility here. Energy resistance and petrify. That’s it. Idk why he’s hyped as being a utility champ cuz all he can do now is take a lot less energy damage and, for 15 seconds only after every SP2, reduce and often reverse healing and power gain. Considering the petrify usually falls off between SP2s, I think there are much better options for both consistently reversing regen, like Mags, HT and Void, and for consistently reducing power gainers, like Void, Doc Oc or a good nullifier.

    I’m not taking my 6* YJ into anything in the future based on this. He’s only slightly better, but for a champ whose buff was supposed to be an actual kit rework, he adds nothing to the game that someone (or multiple someones) can’t do better.

    He wasn't supposed to do anything better than others. Not specifically. He was supposed to be better than he was.
    Ok well that was an incredibly low bar that Kabam just barely cleared so mission accomplished I guess?
    That may be the case when Champs are particularly low to begin with, but I'm just making the point that these buffs aren't likely done with the idea of making them "the best" at anything. While it's true that looking at the overall data is part of it, the objective is to moderately add more usefulness, in comparison to how they are originally. Not necessarily to persuade people to Rank them over others. It's the difference between "better" and "better than".
    I applaud your pacifism my man. You seem like a real peacekeeper. But for reals isn’t the purpose to get people playing with a character? Why would you play with a character if you have better options? If all this didn’t change anyone’s opinion on ranking him up, why would you play with him unranked? I think the goal is to make a champ good enough to rank and play. In a game where you can only bring 3-5 champs into any piece of content and you have to make comparative decisions, I think it’s always a question of “better than”
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 29,291 ★★★★★

    I see a lot of people disagreeing with the OP on this but I took him for a few whirls and he really is just about as useless as before. Let’s talk about his damage and utility.

    Damage: I’m guessing Etjama got a 50K power sting from throwing a SP3 and an SP1 to get 4 total power stings, including a big one from the SP3. This aligns with him having a 60-hit combo I think. If I’m wrong, Etjama can correct me, but isn’t it concerning that a 5/65 YJ with suicides and class advantage has had to throw 60 hits so far and only took down 36% health from RoL Juggs? I dunno about y’all but a true damage dealer would have done way more damage much more quickly. Definitely not a damage champ in my books so what about utility.

    Utility: In addition to his power stings, there are only two other pieces of utility here. Energy resistance and petrify. That’s it. Idk why he’s hyped as being a utility champ cuz all he can do now is take a lot less energy damage and, for 15 seconds only after every SP2, reduce and often reverse healing and power gain. Considering the petrify usually falls off between SP2s, I think there are much better options for both consistently reversing regen, like Mags, HT and Void, and for consistently reducing power gainers, like Void, Doc Oc or a good nullifier.

    I’m not taking my 6* YJ into anything in the future based on this. He’s only slightly better, but for a champ whose buff was supposed to be an actual kit rework, he adds nothing to the game that someone (or multiple someones) can’t do better.

    He wasn't supposed to do anything better than others. Not specifically. He was supposed to be better than he was.
    Ok well that was an incredibly low bar that Kabam just barely cleared so mission accomplished I guess?
    That may be the case when Champs are particularly low to begin with, but I'm just making the point that these buffs aren't likely done with the idea of making them "the best" at anything. While it's true that looking at the overall data is part of it, the objective is to moderately add more usefulness, in comparison to how they are originally. Not necessarily to persuade people to Rank them over others. It's the difference between "better" and "better than".
    I applaud your pacifism my man. You seem like a real peacekeeper. But for reals isn’t the purpose to get people playing with a character? Why would you play with a character if you have better options? If all this didn’t change anyone’s opinion on ranking him up, why would you play with him unranked? I think the goal is to make a champ good enough to rank and play. In a game where you can only bring 3-5 champs into any piece of content and you have to make comparative decisions, I think it’s always a question of “better than”
    Actually, the reasons are somewhat two-fold. First is to update some older Champions so they have more usefulness in the current Meta. That Meta pertains to the overall state of the game and content in general. Not the most popular "God Tier" list.
    The second is to improve the RNG variance where people pull Champs they have less use for compared to the same ones they're chasing after, which make up those options you're referring to. Not to replace the ones in the list that lead to the issue of comparison you're making. It's not about making them better than anything but what they were previously. The objective is not "the next best God Tier option".
  • DemonzfyreDemonzfyre Posts: 14,704 ★★★★★
    HI_guys said:

    SWORD78 said:

    His PowerSting Debuffs are no longer Passive. How is that a Buff. They Nerfed him so hard

    Oh no :cry: Kingpin rage is no longer passive. That means Void can do his damage against Kingpin. They Nerfed him so hard.

    Before you just post random stuff, please play with the champ lol
    Isn't that. Legit concern? You'd think a debuff shrugging champ is good agaisnt void
    Oooooorrrrrr don't use him against Void.
  • Hera1d_of_Ga1actusHera1d_of_Ga1actus Posts: 2,182 ★★★★★
    HI_guys said:

    HI_guys said:

    SWORD78 said:

    His PowerSting Debuffs are no longer Passive. How is that a Buff. They Nerfed him so hard

    Oh no :cry: Kingpin rage is no longer passive. That means Void can do his damage against Kingpin. They Nerfed him so hard.

    Before you just post random stuff, please play with the champ lol
    Isn't that. Legit concern? You'd think a debuff shrugging champ is good agaisnt void
    Oooooorrrrrr don't use him against Void.

    That's besides the point big guy
    That's literally the whole point. Arguing that a buff is "bad" because passives are no longer debuffs is a dumb argument and that's what I highlighted and Demonz highlighted as well
  • PulyamanPulyaman Posts: 2,365 ★★★★★

    HI_guys said:

    HI_guys said:

    SWORD78 said:

    His PowerSting Debuffs are no longer Passive. How is that a Buff. They Nerfed him so hard

    Oh no :cry: Kingpin rage is no longer passive. That means Void can do his damage against Kingpin. They Nerfed him so hard.

    Before you just post random stuff, please play with the champ lol
    Isn't that. Legit concern? You'd think a debuff shrugging champ is good agaisnt void
    Oooooorrrrrr don't use him against Void.

    That's besides the point big guy
    That's literally the whole point. Arguing that a buff is "bad" because passives are no longer debuffs is a dumb argument and that's what I highlighted and Demonz highlighted as well
    I am not arguing the buff is bad. If this was the case for a mystic champ, We could argue that since it is a class disadvantage, you typically don't take Mystic against science. But it is a skill champ having an inherent weakness in his kit against a science champ.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 29,291 ★★★★★
    Pulyaman said:

    HI_guys said:

    SWORD78 said:

    His PowerSting Debuffs are no longer Passive. How is that a Buff. They Nerfed him so hard

    Oh no :cry: Kingpin rage is no longer passive. That means Void can do his damage against Kingpin. They Nerfed him so hard.

    Before you just post random stuff, please play with the champ lol
    Isn't that. Legit concern? You'd think a debuff shrugging champ is good agaisnt void
    Oooooorrrrrr don't use him against Void.
    How is this even an reasonable answer. His main utility is shrug off debuffs. And he fails against the one champ where having a Debuff on you is not good. Of course people know not to use him against void with a Debuff. Question is why his rage was changed from passive effect to active debuff.
    It would have been too powerful without the possibility of being Nullified, seems to be the obvious bet.
  • PulyamanPulyaman Posts: 2,365 ★★★★★

    Pulyaman said:

    HI_guys said:

    SWORD78 said:

    His PowerSting Debuffs are no longer Passive. How is that a Buff. They Nerfed him so hard

    Oh no :cry: Kingpin rage is no longer passive. That means Void can do his damage against Kingpin. They Nerfed him so hard.

    Before you just post random stuff, please play with the champ lol
    Isn't that. Legit concern? You'd think a debuff shrugging champ is good agaisnt void
    Oooooorrrrrr don't use him against Void.
    How is this even an reasonable answer. His main utility is shrug off debuffs. And he fails against the one champ where having a Debuff on you is not good. Of course people know not to use him against void with a Debuff. Question is why his rage was changed from passive effect to active debuff.
    It would have been too powerful without the possibility of being Nullified, seems to be the obvious bet.
    Sometimes, I wonder about you mate. Nothing would change in his kit if the rage was a passive and his regen rate was kept normal.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 29,291 ★★★★★
    HI_guys said:

    Pulyaman said:

    HI_guys said:

    SWORD78 said:

    His PowerSting Debuffs are no longer Passive. How is that a Buff. They Nerfed him so hard

    Oh no :cry: Kingpin rage is no longer passive. That means Void can do his damage against Kingpin. They Nerfed him so hard.

    Before you just post random stuff, please play with the champ lol
    Isn't that. Legit concern? You'd think a debuff shrugging champ is good agaisnt void
    Oooooorrrrrr don't use him against Void.
    How is this even an reasonable answer. His main utility is shrug off debuffs. And he fails against the one champ where having a Debuff on you is not good. Of course people know not to use him against void with a Debuff. Question is why his rage was changed from passive effect to active debuff.
    It would have been too powerful without the possibility of being Nullified, seems to be the obvious bet.
    You can't nullify debuffs
    Duh moment. They can be prevented with AAR.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 29,291 ★★★★★
    Pulyaman said:

    Pulyaman said:

    HI_guys said:

    SWORD78 said:

    His PowerSting Debuffs are no longer Passive. How is that a Buff. They Nerfed him so hard

    Oh no :cry: Kingpin rage is no longer passive. That means Void can do his damage against Kingpin. They Nerfed him so hard.

    Before you just post random stuff, please play with the champ lol
    Isn't that. Legit concern? You'd think a debuff shrugging champ is good agaisnt void
    Oooooorrrrrr don't use him against Void.
    How is this even an reasonable answer. His main utility is shrug off debuffs. And he fails against the one champ where having a Debuff on you is not good. Of course people know not to use him against void with a Debuff. Question is why his rage was changed from passive effect to active debuff.
    It would have been too powerful without the possibility of being Nullified, seems to be the obvious bet.
    Sometimes, I wonder about you mate. Nothing would change in his kit if the rage was a passive and his regen rate was kept normal.
    Nothing would change? Disagree with that.
  • PulyamanPulyaman Posts: 2,365 ★★★★★
    edited February 2021
    There are also nodes where having a debuff on you gives the defender additional attack. Forgot the name of that node. A reasonable rotation for him would be to get to over power as quick as possible so that you don't have the rage debuffs on you. But, you lose the ability to shrug off debuffs( I am assuming this because if his old kit.But it seems a safe assumption to make.If I am wrong, please correct me). Elsa seems better in terms of utility in those scenarios.
This discussion has been closed.