It’s high time for a 5* basic arena, with the champ being awarded to the top 10% scores, only 4*s and 5*s champs allowed. Also the same prize structure should be expanded to 5* featured arena. Champ awarded for top 10% scores. It’s a joke only the top 300 getting the champ. It’s 2021 not ‘17 anymore, 5*s haven’t the same value, even if they are new ones. Also PHC shards need to be replaced with GMC shards at 4* featured and 5* basic (if released), and with CC shards at 5* featured. Arenas need to be the top priority for update by Kabam. They are heavily outdated, leaving FTP players watching whales, or even smaller spenders, progressing way past them. Few years back a FTP player could have an account similar to a whale, if he was grinding arenas hard. Now, with the existing arenas, is just impossible.
If they do go with a basic 5* arena, it should be restricted to 4 and 5* only. Otherwise, folks with a huge 6* roster can easily clear all the milestones and get the champ.
No point having a big roster if you can’t get benefit from it
Introducing a 6* Featured will only speed up the inevitable that is 7*s or whatever they are planning. It might implode the economy of the game, if it isn't already is. A 5* Basic, on the otherhand, will tip the game in favor of FTPs with lower arena scores and balance the game in the long run.
For the most part. The people that have the newest 6* champs are the people that are spending anyway. The economy of the game is safe because I can almost guarantee you aren’t getting a 6* featured champ from arena unless you are spending some major coin or you grind for 3 days straight no sleep like the old days.
The *average* amount of units you need to spend to snag the 6* featured is 25000. That's assuming 1.2% drop rate and 300 units per crystal. Featured grinds typically take much less than that many. That many units would be about 417 refreshes of a team scoring at least 200k (more with boosts) which would be 83 million points just from those refreshes, and an implied total score north of 130 million. For the people spending on the featured Cavs, the 6* arena would be cheaper if they were willing to do it. Some would, some won't, but I guarantee at least 300 would. This would have some impact on spending at the highest level, before we account for second-order effects.
Yea, the featured would be cheaper , but in this game as you have stated , monetizes time. Time is money and depends which one you are willing to spend more of. I think as of now , the 5* featured is nice , but is pushing the lower tier players out of the bracket to acquire champs and grow their roster. The health of the game is not in the top tier 1% of players it’s everyone else. We see this effect by them making act 6 changes as well as making cav difficulty a lot less skilled. Half the battle is developing an interest and when your 99% feel they never have a chance of obtaining champs ( fueled by YouTube) it creates a shift from wanting to obtain a goal to understanding it’s unrealistic to you. The 5* arena is now saturated with 1%ers who can put up 50mil in their sleep. The shift has moved from 4* to 5* , so where does that leave those players ?
Most of the 99% don't shoot for the highest competitive rewards, because of course not. Anyone not in the top X% but who needed to be competitive among the top X% wouldn't stick around. This game is full of 99% players that are perfectly happy getting 99% rewards.
And we have to consider what we take away when we add things like this. So far, advocates have been suggesting that a new 6* arena would be beneficial not just to the top 300, but also to everyone else because the rewards in that arena would be higher. But that's not universally true. Consider units.
Far more people grind arena for units than attempt to go for the featured champs. Far more F2P players depend on the units in the arena than any other reward in the arenas. What would adding a 6* featured arena do to unit grinds? Well to start the devs are not just going to add more units to the arenas. We saw that with the monthly event quest changes when Cavalier was added. Units were shuffled around, not added. A hypothetical 6* arena would almost certainly have units as milestone rewards. Those units would have to come predominantly from the other arenas: their units would be lowered to shift them to the 6* featured.
Even if the 6* featured arena ends up with slightly more units than the other arenas are lowered or if the units were just shifted out of the lowest arena into the 6* featured, that would mean that the net effort required to get the same amount of units would go up dramatically. Players who couldn't farm all the arenas now and are focusing on the lower arenas would see their net units drop markedly. Even players who currently farm all the milestones would now have a much more difficult time doing so with a hypothetical 6* arena added. Even for a player like me who grinds arena at a very high level with a significant roster would probably see the amount of time necessary to grab the same amount of units rise by 30%. Right now in effect units are "concentrated" in five arenas. Adding a sixth would dilute those units across six arenas, one of them probably requiring very large 6* rosters to grind through. This would be a substantial penalty to arena grinders and F2P players in general.
People tend to think of the arenas as a playground for the featured grinders mostly: they think about the featured champ rewards. But that's only a small part of what they do. For the vast majority of players, the arena is one of the best places to grind out any rewards, and the key place where they can get unit currency. Adding arenas dilutes those rewards, and removing the smallest ones and adding larger ones to keep the number fixed shifts the amount of effort to grind those rewards upward by an substantial amount. The gains are focused on the few, while the costs are distributed among the many.
Honestly, just bring back the old featured system. It allowed people to target a specific champion much easier without being able to get enough shards to get every new champ. To me, that would be enough to make players immediately interested in new champs
I’m not sure where I stand on a 6* featured arena, but Brian’s point about people saving for months and stagnating is absolutely on point.
I know I personally saved shards for months for this featured. And I’m probably going to save up over the next featured for the one after that, assuming it’s good. While I don’t mind it, it really does take a good chunk of thrill out of the game for months at a time
I do think something needs to change in this area. New champion releases just aren’t that exciting for the majority of players. And playing with champions is pretty much a fundamental part of this game.
The addition of the 3* to arena milestones was a good move, but most players have no reasonable way to get a usable rarity of these champs upon release. Essentially, unless you’re busting cavs or one of 600 people grinding for a champ, there are very limited ways to target champs. And of course that’s part of the game. But that’s why I really liked the old featured system. It gave that certain level of targeting to the average player
The original featured offered a one in five chance at a single specific targeted champ in a world where the average player would only get one or two shots at it at most. Players didn't like champion scarcity so shards were universally increased across the board. We get more 6* shards today than we originally got 5* shards when they first came out. If you want the original featured system to come back, you also have to convince everyone else to accept a world where the average player gets enough 6* shards to form a featured crystal maybe once every month or two.
Otherwise, 6* champs become so trivially easy to target only morons would spend to get them, and then the game's revenue drops to the point where its future becomes uncertain. That's not worth it to me.
Honestly, just bring back the old featured system. It allowed people to target a specific champion much easier without being able to get enough shards to get every new champ. To me, that would be enough to make players immediately interested in new champs
I’m not sure where I stand on a 6* featured arena, but Brian’s point about people saving for months and stagnating is absolutely on point.
I know I personally saved shards for months for this featured. And I’m probably going to save up over the next featured for the one after that, assuming it’s good. While I don’t mind it, it really does take a good chunk of thrill out of the game for months at a time
I do think something needs to change in this area. New champion releases just aren’t that exciting for the majority of players. And playing with champions is pretty much a fundamental part of this game.
The addition of the 3* to arena milestones was a good move, but most players have no reasonable way to get a usable rarity of these champs upon release. Essentially, unless you’re busting cavs or one of 600 people grinding for a champ, there are very limited ways to target champs. And of course that’s part of the game. But that’s why I really liked the old featured system. It gave that certain level of targeting to the average player
The original featured offered a one in five chance at a single specific targeted champ in a world where the average player would only get one or two shots at it at most. Players didn't like champion scarcity so shards were universally increased across the board. We get more 6* shards today than we originally got 5* shards when they first came out. If you want the original featured system to come back, you also have to convince everyone else to accept a world where the average player gets enough 6* shards to form a featured crystal maybe once every month or two.
Otherwise, 6* champs become so trivially easy to target only morons would spend to get them, and then the game's revenue drops to the point where its future becomes uncertain. That's not worth it to me.
Most players right now are getting about 20-30k 6* shards a month depending on where they place in AW seasons. That’s two featured crystals, three at a push. We get 2 new champions a month.
The current shard gain is exactly at that 2-3 shots you pointed out. It’s absolutely worth it to me with where we are in shard acquisition
Honestly, just bring back the old featured system. It allowed people to target a specific champion much easier without being able to get enough shards to get every new champ. To me, that would be enough to make players immediately interested in new champs
I’m not sure where I stand on a 6* featured arena, but Brian’s point about people saving for months and stagnating is absolutely on point.
I know I personally saved shards for months for this featured. And I’m probably going to save up over the next featured for the one after that, assuming it’s good. While I don’t mind it, it really does take a good chunk of thrill out of the game for months at a time
I do think something needs to change in this area. New champion releases just aren’t that exciting for the majority of players. And playing with champions is pretty much a fundamental part of this game.
The addition of the 3* to arena milestones was a good move, but most players have no reasonable way to get a usable rarity of these champs upon release. Essentially, unless you’re busting cavs or one of 600 people grinding for a champ, there are very limited ways to target champs. And of course that’s part of the game. But that’s why I really liked the old featured system. It gave that certain level of targeting to the average player
The original featured offered a one in five chance at a single specific targeted champ in a world where the average player would only get one or two shots at it at most. Players didn't like champion scarcity so shards were universally increased across the board. We get more 6* shards today than we originally got 5* shards when they first came out. If you want the original featured system to come back, you also have to convince everyone else to accept a world where the average player gets enough 6* shards to form a featured crystal maybe once every month or two.
Otherwise, 6* champs become so trivially easy to target only morons would spend to get them, and then the game's revenue drops to the point where its future becomes uncertain. That's not worth it to me.
Most players right now are getting about 20-30k 6* shards a month depending on where they place in AW seasons. That’s two featured crystals, three at a push. We get 2 new champions a month.
The current shard gain is exactly at that 2-3 shots you pointed out. It’s absolutely worth it to me with where we are in shard acquisition
When I say "one or two shots at it" I meant players were saving up for months to have one or two shots at it. Some players were getting lots of shots at the old featured, but most people were getting not even one. Back then I started off with one 5* crystal every few months, and that eventually ramped up to about two a month. That ramp up is specifically the thing that doomed the featured crystal.
Right now we get a couple shots per month at a one in 24 crystal (it is more complicated than that, but just for simplicity) and the devs seem fine with that. If you want one in five, you probably need to see a 5:1 drop in shard earning ratio. Instead of two a month, more like one every two or three months. That's either a remarkable coincidence compared to the original 5* shard earning rates, or that's saying something about the limits the game will allow for targeting.
Honestly, just bring back the old featured system. It allowed people to target a specific champion much easier without being able to get enough shards to get every new champ. To me, that would be enough to make players immediately interested in new champs
I’m not sure where I stand on a 6* featured arena, but Brian’s point about people saving for months and stagnating is absolutely on point.
I know I personally saved shards for months for this featured. And I’m probably going to save up over the next featured for the one after that, assuming it’s good. While I don’t mind it, it really does take a good chunk of thrill out of the game for months at a time
I do think something needs to change in this area. New champion releases just aren’t that exciting for the majority of players. And playing with champions is pretty much a fundamental part of this game.
The addition of the 3* to arena milestones was a good move, but most players have no reasonable way to get a usable rarity of these champs upon release. Essentially, unless you’re busting cavs or one of 600 people grinding for a champ, there are very limited ways to target champs. And of course that’s part of the game. But that’s why I really liked the old featured system. It gave that certain level of targeting to the average player
The original featured offered a one in five chance at a single specific targeted champ in a world where the average player would only get one or two shots at it at most. Players didn't like champion scarcity so shards were universally increased across the board. We get more 6* shards today than we originally got 5* shards when they first came out. If you want the original featured system to come back, you also have to convince everyone else to accept a world where the average player gets enough 6* shards to form a featured crystal maybe once every month or two.
Otherwise, 6* champs become so trivially easy to target only morons would spend to get them, and then the game's revenue drops to the point where its future becomes uncertain. That's not worth it to me.
Most players right now are getting about 20-30k 6* shards a month depending on where they place in AW seasons. That’s two featured crystals, three at a push. We get 2 new champions a month.
The current shard gain is exactly at that 2-3 shots you pointed out. It’s absolutely worth it to me with where we are in shard acquisition
When I say "one or two shots at it" I meant players were saving up for months to have one or two shots at it. Some players were getting lots of shots at the old featured, but most people were getting not even one. Back then I started off with one 5* crystal every few months, and that eventually ramped up to about two a month. That ramp up is specifically the thing that doomed the featured crystal.
Right now we get a couple shots per month at a one in 24 crystal (it is more complicated than that, but just for simplicity) and the devs seem fine with that. If you want one in five, you probably need to see a 5:1 drop in shard earning ratio. Instead of two a month, more like one every two or three months. That's either a remarkable coincidence compared to the original 5* shard earning rates, or that's saying something about the limits the game will allow for targeting.
I can see that. But we’re also here discussing the difficulty of targeting champs, especially for the average player.
I’m not an economist, nor a game designer. But I don’t think the old featured system under our current shard gain would break the game. Whales are still going to whale on the cavs twice a month, they can access more shards but not that much more they are going to be able to rely on the shard featured twice a month
I don’t even think the featured should come on the day of release. Even the next month to return the ‘whale first’ meta you were discussing earlier. A month is still an AW season, those at the top will spend for that next big attacker/defender right now
I don’t think it’s a perfect solution. But I can’t envisage a better one, at least right now
Honestly, just bring back the old featured system. It allowed people to target a specific champion much easier without being able to get enough shards to get every new champ. To me, that would be enough to make players immediately interested in new champs
I’m not sure where I stand on a 6* featured arena, but Brian’s point about people saving for months and stagnating is absolutely on point.
I know I personally saved shards for months for this featured. And I’m probably going to save up over the next featured for the one after that, assuming it’s good. While I don’t mind it, it really does take a good chunk of thrill out of the game for months at a time
I do think something needs to change in this area. New champion releases just aren’t that exciting for the majority of players. And playing with champions is pretty much a fundamental part of this game.
The addition of the 3* to arena milestones was a good move, but most players have no reasonable way to get a usable rarity of these champs upon release. Essentially, unless you’re busting cavs or one of 600 people grinding for a champ, there are very limited ways to target champs. And of course that’s part of the game. But that’s why I really liked the old featured system. It gave that certain level of targeting to the average player
The original featured offered a one in five chance at a single specific targeted champ in a world where the average player would only get one or two shots at it at most. Players didn't like champion scarcity so shards were universally increased across the board. We get more 6* shards today than we originally got 5* shards when they first came out. If you want the original featured system to come back, you also have to convince everyone else to accept a world where the average player gets enough 6* shards to form a featured crystal maybe once every month or two.
Otherwise, 6* champs become so trivially easy to target only morons would spend to get them, and then the game's revenue drops to the point where its future becomes uncertain. That's not worth it to me.
Most players right now are getting about 20-30k 6* shards a month depending on where they place in AW seasons. That’s two featured crystals, three at a push. We get 2 new champions a month.
The current shard gain is exactly at that 2-3 shots you pointed out. It’s absolutely worth it to me with where we are in shard acquisition
When I say "one or two shots at it" I meant players were saving up for months to have one or two shots at it. Some players were getting lots of shots at the old featured, but most people were getting not even one. Back then I started off with one 5* crystal every few months, and that eventually ramped up to about two a month. That ramp up is specifically the thing that doomed the featured crystal.
Right now we get a couple shots per month at a one in 24 crystal (it is more complicated than that, but just for simplicity) and the devs seem fine with that. If you want one in five, you probably need to see a 5:1 drop in shard earning ratio. Instead of two a month, more like one every two or three months. That's either a remarkable coincidence compared to the original 5* shard earning rates, or that's saying something about the limits the game will allow for targeting.
I can see that. But we’re also here discussing the difficulty of targeting champs, especially for the average player.
I'm going to assume for the sake of argument that you mean a player that averages 30 6* shards per month, which is two featured 6* crystals (I believe that to be significantly above average, but I'm using your prior post as context here). This would basically imply that such a player would get about six shots at every featured crystal, which contains six new and 18 older champs.
If you're aiming at one specific featured champ, the odds of getting that champ at least once are about 23%. If you're aiming at two of them the odds of getting at least one are about 41%, and if you're aiming at three of them the odds of getting at least one is about 55%. These are the odds of getting the champ in their first run in the featured cystals.
I mention these odds for context: what do you think the odds of snagging a featured champ should be, for "average" players, using shards? What should they be for "above average" players? A one in four chance of getting one specific targeted champ and a 50/50 chance of getting one of three of them seems pretty high to me.
Honestly, just bring back the old featured system. It allowed people to target a specific champion much easier without being able to get enough shards to get every new champ. To me, that would be enough to make players immediately interested in new champs
I’m not sure where I stand on a 6* featured arena, but Brian’s point about people saving for months and stagnating is absolutely on point.
I know I personally saved shards for months for this featured. And I’m probably going to save up over the next featured for the one after that, assuming it’s good. While I don’t mind it, it really does take a good chunk of thrill out of the game for months at a time
I do think something needs to change in this area. New champion releases just aren’t that exciting for the majority of players. And playing with champions is pretty much a fundamental part of this game.
The addition of the 3* to arena milestones was a good move, but most players have no reasonable way to get a usable rarity of these champs upon release. Essentially, unless you’re busting cavs or one of 600 people grinding for a champ, there are very limited ways to target champs. And of course that’s part of the game. But that’s why I really liked the old featured system. It gave that certain level of targeting to the average player
The original featured offered a one in five chance at a single specific targeted champ in a world where the average player would only get one or two shots at it at most. Players didn't like champion scarcity so shards were universally increased across the board. We get more 6* shards today than we originally got 5* shards when they first came out. If you want the original featured system to come back, you also have to convince everyone else to accept a world where the average player gets enough 6* shards to form a featured crystal maybe once every month or two.
Otherwise, 6* champs become so trivially easy to target only morons would spend to get them, and then the game's revenue drops to the point where its future becomes uncertain. That's not worth it to me.
Most players right now are getting about 20-30k 6* shards a month depending on where they place in AW seasons. That’s two featured crystals, three at a push. We get 2 new champions a month.
The current shard gain is exactly at that 2-3 shots you pointed out. It’s absolutely worth it to me with where we are in shard acquisition
When I say "one or two shots at it" I meant players were saving up for months to have one or two shots at it. Some players were getting lots of shots at the old featured, but most people were getting not even one. Back then I started off with one 5* crystal every few months, and that eventually ramped up to about two a month. That ramp up is specifically the thing that doomed the featured crystal.
Right now we get a couple shots per month at a one in 24 crystal (it is more complicated than that, but just for simplicity) and the devs seem fine with that. If you want one in five, you probably need to see a 5:1 drop in shard earning ratio. Instead of two a month, more like one every two or three months. That's either a remarkable coincidence compared to the original 5* shard earning rates, or that's saying something about the limits the game will allow for targeting.
I can see that. But we’re also here discussing the difficulty of targeting champs, especially for the average player.
I'm going to assume for the sake of argument that you mean a player that averages 30 6* shards per month, which is two featured 6* crystals (I believe that to be significantly above average, but I'm using your prior post as context here). This would basically imply that such a player would get about six shots at every featured crystal, which contains six new and 18 older champs.
If you're aiming at one specific featured champ, the odds of getting that champ at least once are about 23%. If you're aiming at two of them the odds of getting at least one are about 41%, and if you're aiming at three of them the odds of getting at least one is about 55%. These are the odds of getting the champ in their first run in the featured cystals.
I mention these odds for context: what do you think the odds of snagging a featured champ should be, for "average" players, using shards? What should they be for "above average" players? A one in four chance of getting one specific targeted champ and a 50/50 chance of getting one of three of them seems pretty high to me.
I don’t think there should be different odds for ‘average’ and ‘above average’ players, I don’t know where you’re getting that from. I’m mostly distinguishing between those that spend significantly on cavs and average players that don’t
Those odds are interesting. Because they essentially show the value is equivalent between the featured crystals. So then where is the detriment to moving back to the old system if the overall odds are same, except the old system allows ‘average players’ to access newer champions quicker than potentially 3-4 months later
I don’t know what the ‘correct odds’ should be. You would need to know the intricate monetary and economic impacts that they would have, information neither of us can access. Since you’ve outlined that the odds are the same, I’m going to go with what they’ve set it at since this has been stable over time
The only difference, according to your odds, is the timeline on which players have access to these champs. So what timeframe do you think is reasonable for ‘average players’ to access these new champs in a reasonable capacity?
Honestly, just bring back the old featured system. It allowed people to target a specific champion much easier without being able to get enough shards to get every new champ. To me, that would be enough to make players immediately interested in new champs
I’m not sure where I stand on a 6* featured arena, but Brian’s point about people saving for months and stagnating is absolutely on point.
I know I personally saved shards for months for this featured. And I’m probably going to save up over the next featured for the one after that, assuming it’s good. While I don’t mind it, it really does take a good chunk of thrill out of the game for months at a time
I do think something needs to change in this area. New champion releases just aren’t that exciting for the majority of players. And playing with champions is pretty much a fundamental part of this game.
The addition of the 3* to arena milestones was a good move, but most players have no reasonable way to get a usable rarity of these champs upon release. Essentially, unless you’re busting cavs or one of 600 people grinding for a champ, there are very limited ways to target champs. And of course that’s part of the game. But that’s why I really liked the old featured system. It gave that certain level of targeting to the average player
The original featured offered a one in five chance at a single specific targeted champ in a world where the average player would only get one or two shots at it at most. Players didn't like champion scarcity so shards were universally increased across the board. We get more 6* shards today than we originally got 5* shards when they first came out. If you want the original featured system to come back, you also have to convince everyone else to accept a world where the average player gets enough 6* shards to form a featured crystal maybe once every month or two.
Otherwise, 6* champs become so trivially easy to target only morons would spend to get them, and then the game's revenue drops to the point where its future becomes uncertain. That's not worth it to me.
Most players right now are getting about 20-30k 6* shards a month depending on where they place in AW seasons. That’s two featured crystals, three at a push. We get 2 new champions a month.
The current shard gain is exactly at that 2-3 shots you pointed out. It’s absolutely worth it to me with where we are in shard acquisition
When I say "one or two shots at it" I meant players were saving up for months to have one or two shots at it. Some players were getting lots of shots at the old featured, but most people were getting not even one. Back then I started off with one 5* crystal every few months, and that eventually ramped up to about two a month. That ramp up is specifically the thing that doomed the featured crystal.
Right now we get a couple shots per month at a one in 24 crystal (it is more complicated than that, but just for simplicity) and the devs seem fine with that. If you want one in five, you probably need to see a 5:1 drop in shard earning ratio. Instead of two a month, more like one every two or three months. That's either a remarkable coincidence compared to the original 5* shard earning rates, or that's saying something about the limits the game will allow for targeting.
I can see that. But we’re also here discussing the difficulty of targeting champs, especially for the average player.
I'm going to assume for the sake of argument that you mean a player that averages 30 6* shards per month, which is two featured 6* crystals (I believe that to be significantly above average, but I'm using your prior post as context here). This would basically imply that such a player would get about six shots at every featured crystal, which contains six new and 18 older champs.
If you're aiming at one specific featured champ, the odds of getting that champ at least once are about 23%. If you're aiming at two of them the odds of getting at least one are about 41%, and if you're aiming at three of them the odds of getting at least one is about 55%. These are the odds of getting the champ in their first run in the featured cystals.
I mention these odds for context: what do you think the odds of snagging a featured champ should be, for "average" players, using shards? What should they be for "above average" players? A one in four chance of getting one specific targeted champ and a 50/50 chance of getting one of three of them seems pretty high to me.
I don’t think there should be different odds for ‘average’ and ‘above average’ players, I don’t know where you’re getting that from. I’m mostly distinguishing between those that spend significantly on cavs and average players that don’t
Those odds are interesting. Because they essentially show the value is equivalent between the featured crystals. So then where is the detriment to moving back to the old system if the overall odds are same, except the old system allows ‘average players’ to access newer champions quicker than potentially 3-4 months later
I think you're misunderstanding something. The odds of getting any particular champ in any period of time is based on large part on how many attempts you make. So the odds for a player that has more shots at it will be better than a player who has fewer shots at it. It isn't the crystal that is giving one player better odds. It is the player acquiring more crystals that is getting better overall odds than the player acquiring fewer.
The value of the crystals isn't equivalent, because as I mentioned previously the value of the crystals depends strongly on how many you get. The devs don't care about the odds of one single crystal, they care about the overall odds for players acquiring a certain number of them. The Abyss crystal offers amazing odds, because you only ever get one of them. The 6* Nexus crystals offer better odds than the basic crystals, because you get so much fewer of them.
The original featured crystal was designed at a time when the number of them a player might hope to buy was low. Its overall impact on the game was thus lower. But as 5* shards became plentiful, its impact on the game rose, and the ability for players to target specific champs rose. The crystal didn't change, our ability to opens dozens of them at a time is what changed.
Eventually, every player gets every champ, even if they just pull them in the basic crystal. You're correct that this is about time. And that's the point. That time isn't insignificant, and changing that delay from 12 months to six months to three months is extremely important, because that's what the game is currently selling. The people who spend get them sooner, the players who don't get them later. Closing that gap by any amount has the potential to devalue that spending advantage, and erode spending itself. And it is impossible to know in what specific way, because humans are not predictable or linear. They don't notice changes, until they do. Changing the delay by a month could have zero impact on spending, but changing it by one single day more on top could be the straw that breaks the camels back and causes a dramatic shift in spending.
Honestly, just bring back the old featured system. It allowed people to target a specific champion much easier without being able to get enough shards to get every new champ. To me, that would be enough to make players immediately interested in new champs
I’m not sure where I stand on a 6* featured arena, but Brian’s point about people saving for months and stagnating is absolutely on point.
I know I personally saved shards for months for this featured. And I’m probably going to save up over the next featured for the one after that, assuming it’s good. While I don’t mind it, it really does take a good chunk of thrill out of the game for months at a time
I do think something needs to change in this area. New champion releases just aren’t that exciting for the majority of players. And playing with champions is pretty much a fundamental part of this game.
The addition of the 3* to arena milestones was a good move, but most players have no reasonable way to get a usable rarity of these champs upon release. Essentially, unless you’re busting cavs or one of 600 people grinding for a champ, there are very limited ways to target champs. And of course that’s part of the game. But that’s why I really liked the old featured system. It gave that certain level of targeting to the average player
The original featured offered a one in five chance at a single specific targeted champ in a world where the average player would only get one or two shots at it at most. Players didn't like champion scarcity so shards were universally increased across the board. We get more 6* shards today than we originally got 5* shards when they first came out. If you want the original featured system to come back, you also have to convince everyone else to accept a world where the average player gets enough 6* shards to form a featured crystal maybe once every month or two.
Otherwise, 6* champs become so trivially easy to target only morons would spend to get them, and then the game's revenue drops to the point where its future becomes uncertain. That's not worth it to me.
Most players right now are getting about 20-30k 6* shards a month depending on where they place in AW seasons. That’s two featured crystals, three at a push. We get 2 new champions a month.
The current shard gain is exactly at that 2-3 shots you pointed out. It’s absolutely worth it to me with where we are in shard acquisition
When I say "one or two shots at it" I meant players were saving up for months to have one or two shots at it. Some players were getting lots of shots at the old featured, but most people were getting not even one. Back then I started off with one 5* crystal every few months, and that eventually ramped up to about two a month. That ramp up is specifically the thing that doomed the featured crystal.
Right now we get a couple shots per month at a one in 24 crystal (it is more complicated than that, but just for simplicity) and the devs seem fine with that. If you want one in five, you probably need to see a 5:1 drop in shard earning ratio. Instead of two a month, more like one every two or three months. That's either a remarkable coincidence compared to the original 5* shard earning rates, or that's saying something about the limits the game will allow for targeting.
I can see that. But we’re also here discussing the difficulty of targeting champs, especially for the average player.
I'm going to assume for the sake of argument that you mean a player that averages 30 6* shards per month, which is two featured 6* crystals (I believe that to be significantly above average, but I'm using your prior post as context here). This would basically imply that such a player would get about six shots at every featured crystal, which contains six new and 18 older champs.
If you're aiming at one specific featured champ, the odds of getting that champ at least once are about 23%. If you're aiming at two of them the odds of getting at least one are about 41%, and if you're aiming at three of them the odds of getting at least one is about 55%. These are the odds of getting the champ in their first run in the featured cystals.
I mention these odds for context: what do you think the odds of snagging a featured champ should be, for "average" players, using shards? What should they be for "above average" players? A one in four chance of getting one specific targeted champ and a 50/50 chance of getting one of three of them seems pretty high to me.
I don’t think there should be different odds for ‘average’ and ‘above average’ players, I don’t know where you’re getting that from. I’m mostly distinguishing between those that spend significantly on cavs and average players that don’t
Those odds are interesting. Because they essentially show the value is equivalent between the featured crystals. So then where is the detriment to moving back to the old system if the overall odds are same, except the old system allows ‘average players’ to access newer champions quicker than potentially 3-4 months later
Eventually, every player gets every champ, even if they just pull them in the basic crystal. You're correct that this is about time. And that's the point. That time isn't insignificant, and changing that delay from 12 months to six months to three months is extremely important, because that's what the game is currently selling. The people who spend get them sooner, the players who don't get them later. Closing that gap by any amount has the potential to devalue that spending advantage, and erode spending itself. And it is impossible to know in what specific way, because humans are not predictable or linear. They don't notice changes, until they do. Changing the delay by a month could have zero impact on spending, but changing it by one single day more on top could be the straw that breaks the camels back and causes a dramatic shift in spending.
Of course one day could be the tipping point that crosses the spending/non-spending threshold. But we can’t know that.
What I can certainly see from the outside, is that this seems to be a frustration amongst the playerbase. No one is guaranteed to pull a champ from a crystal eventually. You and I both know that’s not how this game works, there is no system that guaranteed you will get a champ eventually. And that’s why they sell time, and odds.
Of course we don’t want to discourage spending. But we also need to find a way to improve this for the wider playerbase. I don’t know if you agree with that, or even if you think there is a problem. I think there is.
I don’t think the old featured system is the perfect solution, you’ve shown there is clear flaws in it. I would be a fool to deny that. But I also can’t see a better solution to the problem. It’s clear you have one of the best grasps on the game amongst the community. I’ve observed that other the years. I would interested to hear if you have a better solution to this frustration that has arisen, if you think there is a problem that is.
I don’t think the old featured system is the perfect solution, you’ve shown there is clear flaws in it. I would be a fool to deny that. But I also can’t see a better solution to the problem. It’s clear you have one of the best grasps on the game amongst the community. I’ve observed that other the years. I would interested to hear if you have a better solution to this frustration that has arisen, if you think there is a problem that is.
First of all, some frustration is inevitable. By definition if everyone was satisfied, the impetus to spend would be nullified. For F2P games to work, they have to create something everyone wants but not everyone can get, or not everyone can get when they want. If this isn't true, the game can't support itself.
So before you try to tackle "the problem" I think you need to decide what the problem is, or in this case how much frustration is reasonable. If your target is zero, I think that's an unsolvable problem. But if you think some specific level of frustration is acceptable, and the current one is too high, that might be a solvable problem. But the specifics I think matter here. For example, the devs recently introduced the dual class crystals for 5* champs. That significantly improves the ability to target champs, without allowing explicit targeting of a single champ. That is an improvement, but I think it doesn't give some players what they want. They want certainty both in terms of what champ they target and when they are guaranteed to eventually get it. And I think that certainty is something they will never get, or can get in this game.
If you ask how do we get from our current level of targeting to some other level of targeting, I might either say how I think that could be done or say I think that's not possible to do, or say I think that level of targeting is too high for the game. But if you ask how do we address frustration in general, I think that's not a well-defined problem with a solution.
I don’t think the old featured system is the perfect solution, you’ve shown there is clear flaws in it. I would be a fool to deny that. But I also can’t see a better solution to the problem. It’s clear you have one of the best grasps on the game amongst the community. I’ve observed that other the years. I would interested to hear if you have a better solution to this frustration that has arisen, if you think there is a problem that is.
First of all, some frustration is inevitable. By definition if everyone was satisfied, the impetus to spend would be nullified. For F2P games to work, they have to create something everyone wants but not everyone can get, or not everyone can get when they want. If this isn't true, the game can't support itself.
So before you try to tackle "the problem" I think you need to decide what the problem is, or in this case how much frustration is reasonable. If your target is zero, I think that's an unsolvable problem. But if you think some specific level of frustration is acceptable, and the current one is too high, that might be a solvable problem. But the specifics I think matter here. For example, the devs recently introduced the dual class crystals for 5* champs. That significantly improves the ability to target champs, without allowing explicit targeting of a single champ. That is an improvement, but I think it doesn't give some players what they want. They want certainty both in terms of what champ they target and when they are guaranteed to eventually get it. And I think that certainty is something they will never get, or can get in this game.
If you ask how do we get from our current level of targeting to some other level of targeting, I might either say how I think that could be done or say I think that's not possible to do, or say I think that level of targeting is too high for the game. But if you ask how do we address frustration in general, I think that's not a well-defined problem with a solution.
I think players frustration is that they can no longer compete for usable versions of new champs in a reasonable timeframe
Of course there is going to be frustration, as you say, it’s part of the game.
To me, a reasonable timeframe is one to two months for a new champ to become more widely accessible. Enough to reduce frustration and allow normal players to play with new champs if they want to in a reasonable timeframe, but still keeps the competitive edge for spenders since AW meta moves month to month
It’s less to do with targeting, and more to do with access to champions in terms of time.
Define usable though. 5*s are accessible through an Arena. They're still usable.
For the players able to land within the top 300, they have rosters that have mostly moved last 5*s. But most still grind those champs for testing. Which then pushes out the players that actually need 5* champs. That’s why everyone is pushing for a basic 5* arena
Define usable though. 5*s are accessible through an Arena. They're still usable.
For the players able to land within the top 300, they have rosters that have mostly moved last 5*s. But most still grind those champs for testing. Which then pushes out the players that actually need 5* champs. That’s why everyone is pushing for a basic 5* arena
Any intelligent Grinder wouldn't overlook their 5* Roster. Not with the amount of Points they give.
Define usable though. 5*s are accessible through an Arena. They're still usable.
For the players able to land within the top 300, they have rosters that have mostly moved last 5*s. But most still grind those champs for testing. Which then pushes out the players that actually need 5* champs. That’s why everyone is pushing for a basic 5* arena
Any intelligent Grinder wouldn't overlook their 5* Roster. Not with the amount of Points they give.
No one is saying that. It’s not in relation to use of 5*s in arena. People who land the featured champ in the 5* featured are mainly accounts that are moving onto, or have moved onto 6* champs in their day to day usage. 5* champs are for testing purposes and arena.
What this does is pushes out players who’s progression could actually benefit from the top 300. And while that’s fine with how it’s set up, it’s why people want a 5* basic, so that these accounts that aren’t at the top of the game can achieve the necessary points to win champions that will actually benefit them
I don’t think the old featured system is the perfect solution, you’ve shown there is clear flaws in it. I would be a fool to deny that. But I also can’t see a better solution to the problem. It’s clear you have one of the best grasps on the game amongst the community. I’ve observed that other the years. I would interested to hear if you have a better solution to this frustration that has arisen, if you think there is a problem that is.
First of all, some frustration is inevitable. By definition if everyone was satisfied, the impetus to spend would be nullified. For F2P games to work, they have to create something everyone wants but not everyone can get, or not everyone can get when they want. If this isn't true, the game can't support itself.
So before you try to tackle "the problem" I think you need to decide what the problem is, or in this case how much frustration is reasonable. If your target is zero, I think that's an unsolvable problem. But if you think some specific level of frustration is acceptable, and the current one is too high, that might be a solvable problem. But the specifics I think matter here. For example, the devs recently introduced the dual class crystals for 5* champs. That significantly improves the ability to target champs, without allowing explicit targeting of a single champ. That is an improvement, but I think it doesn't give some players what they want. They want certainty both in terms of what champ they target and when they are guaranteed to eventually get it. And I think that certainty is something they will never get, or can get in this game.
If you ask how do we get from our current level of targeting to some other level of targeting, I might either say how I think that could be done or say I think that's not possible to do, or say I think that level of targeting is too high for the game. But if you ask how do we address frustration in general, I think that's not a well-defined problem with a solution.
I think players frustration is that they can no longer compete for usable versions of new champs in a reasonable timeframe
Of course there is going to be frustration, as you say, it’s part of the game.
To me, a reasonable timeframe is one to two months for a new champ to become more widely accessible. Enough to reduce frustration and allow normal players to play with new champs if they want to in a reasonable timeframe, but still keeps the competitive edge for spenders since AW meta moves month to month
It’s less to do with targeting, and more to do with access to champions in terms of time.
One to two months is so short of a period of time, that I'm honestly assuming I'm misunderstanding this post altogether. I'm parsing it to say that from the time a champ is introduced, you'd expect a majority of the players who are legitimately shooting for the champion to have it. I'm excluding the vast majority of players that don't have any reasonable chance to do so regardless, and only focusing on the minority of players that do, and even with that constraint I cannot imagine the game would survive such a change.
Fundamentally this game is built upon chasing champions. This would end the chase for a sizeable percentage of the player population. This would be game breaking in the literal sense. It isn't a question of how, of finding a smart way to do it. The result itself, however you accomplish it, where the majority of players acquire which ever champs they want on these time scales, would I believe destroy the game extremely quickly.
I don't see any evidence this is true. People have been saying various forms of "people are losing interest" in different parts of the game or the game as a whole for a very long time. But all the evidence I can find is that the player base itself is stable or growing, and the revenue stream for the game is growing period.
Did we see less interest in the most recent featured 6* crystal, because people waited "too long" for those champs? It didn't look that way to me. Instead, I saw the reverse: people were talking about that featured and discussing its merits and saving shards for *months* waiting for that crystal. People were very interested, and the fact that they had to wait for it did not impair the majority of players pursuit of it.
So between the quantitative things I can weigh and the subjective things I can observe, I see no evidence that the amount of time it takes for champions to pass from introduction to featured cav to featured champion crystal to basic crystal causes any materially significant number of players to lose interest.
You are right , there is not evidence only anecdotes I have seen sprinkled on the forum and YouTube. But , there are people who are enjoying the game more now. I do agree with you that the player base is growing , but it’s because Kabam h
Introducing a 6* Featured will only speed up the inevitable that is 7*s or whatever they are planning. It might implode the economy of the game, if it isn't already is. A 5* Basic, on the otherhand, will tip the game in favor of FTPs with lower arena scores and balance the game in the long run.
For the most part. The people that have the newest 6* champs are the people that are spending anyway. The economy of the game is safe because I can almost guarantee you aren’t getting a 6* featured champ from arena unless you are spending some major coin or you grind for 3 days straight no sleep like the old days.
The *average* amount of units you need to spend to snag the 6* featured is 25000. That's assuming 1.2% drop rate and 300 units per crystal. Featured grinds typically take much less than that many. That many units would be about 417 refreshes of a team scoring at least 200k (more with boosts) which would be 83 million points just from those refreshes, and an implied total score north of 130 million. For the people spending on the featured Cavs, the 6* arena would be cheaper if they were willing to do it. Some would, some won't, but I guarantee at least 300 would. This would have some impact on spending at the highest level, before we account for second-order effects.
Yea, the featured would be cheaper , but in this game as you have stated , monetizes time. Time is money and depends which one you are willing to spend more of. I think as of now , the 5* featured is nice , but is pushing the lower tier players out of the bracket to acquire champs and grow their roster. The health of the game is not in the top tier 1% of players it’s everyone else. We see this effect by them making act 6 changes as well as making cav difficulty a lot less skilled. Half the battle is developing an interest and when your 99% feel they never have a chance of obtaining champs ( fueled by YouTube) it creates a shift from wanting to obtain a goal to understanding it’s unrealistic to you. The 5* arena is now saturated with 1%ers who can put up 50mil in their sleep. The shift has moved from 4* to 5* , so where does that leave those players ?
The 99% wouldn't have a chance at those Champs to begin with. The Arena is, and has always been, a competition that rewards those who put in the most Points. You may have the odd Grinder that throws a few Boosts on and Red Bulls their way into getting the Champs spending Units for refreshes, but the majority of people who get them are the ones with the deepest Rosters. Meaning the 1%. Most have never even Ranked in the 5* Featured, let alone the 6*.
That’s not true , without ever spending I was able to acquire a 4* voodoo and a 5* imiw, but had to be strategic. There was only so many resources in the game which meant rosters were still quite limited. But more importantly you hit the nail on the head” the ones that are getting them is the ones with the deepest rosters” What this means is 4* champs are easily obtainable in the basic arena , those with shallow pockets and F2P. The problem is that the 4* champs aren’t required to clear content anymore aside from act 5. I’m not referring to R5 champs , just being able to obtain a champ is what I mean. This means if 4* champs aren’t allowed in act 6 then the basic arena should shift to 5*s so the 99% can obtain those champs. They would still be beat out in 6* featured arena , just not 5* basic .
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Also the same prize structure should be expanded to 5* featured arena. Champ awarded for top 10% scores.
It’s a joke only the top 300 getting the champ. It’s 2021 not ‘17 anymore, 5*s haven’t the same value, even if they are new ones.
Also PHC shards need to be replaced with GMC shards at 4* featured and 5* basic (if released), and with CC shards at 5* featured.
Arenas need to be the top priority for update by Kabam.
They are heavily outdated, leaving FTP players watching whales, or even smaller spenders, progressing way past them.
Few years back a FTP player could have an account similar to a whale, if he was grinding arenas hard. Now, with the existing arenas, is just impossible.
And we have to consider what we take away when we add things like this. So far, advocates have been suggesting that a new 6* arena would be beneficial not just to the top 300, but also to everyone else because the rewards in that arena would be higher. But that's not universally true. Consider units.
Far more people grind arena for units than attempt to go for the featured champs. Far more F2P players depend on the units in the arena than any other reward in the arenas. What would adding a 6* featured arena do to unit grinds? Well to start the devs are not just going to add more units to the arenas. We saw that with the monthly event quest changes when Cavalier was added. Units were shuffled around, not added. A hypothetical 6* arena would almost certainly have units as milestone rewards. Those units would have to come predominantly from the other arenas: their units would be lowered to shift them to the 6* featured.
Even if the 6* featured arena ends up with slightly more units than the other arenas are lowered or if the units were just shifted out of the lowest arena into the 6* featured, that would mean that the net effort required to get the same amount of units would go up dramatically. Players who couldn't farm all the arenas now and are focusing on the lower arenas would see their net units drop markedly. Even players who currently farm all the milestones would now have a much more difficult time doing so with a hypothetical 6* arena added. Even for a player like me who grinds arena at a very high level with a significant roster would probably see the amount of time necessary to grab the same amount of units rise by 30%. Right now in effect units are "concentrated" in five arenas. Adding a sixth would dilute those units across six arenas, one of them probably requiring very large 6* rosters to grind through. This would be a substantial penalty to arena grinders and F2P players in general.
People tend to think of the arenas as a playground for the featured grinders mostly: they think about the featured champ rewards. But that's only a small part of what they do. For the vast majority of players, the arena is one of the best places to grind out any rewards, and the key place where they can get unit currency. Adding arenas dilutes those rewards, and removing the smallest ones and adding larger ones to keep the number fixed shifts the amount of effort to grind those rewards upward by an substantial amount. The gains are focused on the few, while the costs are distributed among the many.
Otherwise, 6* champs become so trivially easy to target only morons would spend to get them, and then the game's revenue drops to the point where its future becomes uncertain. That's not worth it to me.
The current shard gain is exactly at that 2-3 shots you pointed out. It’s absolutely worth it to me with where we are in shard acquisition
Right now we get a couple shots per month at a one in 24 crystal (it is more complicated than that, but just for simplicity) and the devs seem fine with that. If you want one in five, you probably need to see a 5:1 drop in shard earning ratio. Instead of two a month, more like one every two or three months. That's either a remarkable coincidence compared to the original 5* shard earning rates, or that's saying something about the limits the game will allow for targeting.
I’m not an economist, nor a game designer. But I don’t think the old featured system under our current shard gain would break the game. Whales are still going to whale on the cavs twice a month, they can access more shards but not that much more they are going to be able to rely on the shard featured twice a month
I don’t even think the featured should come on the day of release. Even the next month to return the ‘whale first’ meta you were discussing earlier. A month is still an AW season, those at the top will spend for that next big attacker/defender right now
I don’t think it’s a perfect solution. But I can’t envisage a better one, at least right now
If you're aiming at one specific featured champ, the odds of getting that champ at least once are about 23%. If you're aiming at two of them the odds of getting at least one are about 41%, and if you're aiming at three of them the odds of getting at least one is about 55%. These are the odds of getting the champ in their first run in the featured cystals.
I mention these odds for context: what do you think the odds of snagging a featured champ should be, for "average" players, using shards? What should they be for "above average" players? A one in four chance of getting one specific targeted champ and a 50/50 chance of getting one of three of them seems pretty high to me.
Those odds are interesting. Because they essentially show the value is equivalent between the featured crystals. So then where is the detriment to moving back to the old system if the overall odds are same, except the old system allows ‘average players’ to access newer champions quicker than potentially 3-4 months later
I don’t know what the ‘correct odds’ should be. You would need to know the intricate monetary and economic impacts that they would have, information neither of us can access. Since you’ve outlined that the odds are the same, I’m going to go with what they’ve set it at since this has been stable over time
The only difference, according to your odds, is the timeline on which players have access to these champs. So what timeframe do you think is reasonable for ‘average players’ to access these new champs in a reasonable capacity?
The value of the crystals isn't equivalent, because as I mentioned previously the value of the crystals depends strongly on how many you get. The devs don't care about the odds of one single crystal, they care about the overall odds for players acquiring a certain number of them. The Abyss crystal offers amazing odds, because you only ever get one of them. The 6* Nexus crystals offer better odds than the basic crystals, because you get so much fewer of them.
The original featured crystal was designed at a time when the number of them a player might hope to buy was low. Its overall impact on the game was thus lower. But as 5* shards became plentiful, its impact on the game rose, and the ability for players to target specific champs rose. The crystal didn't change, our ability to opens dozens of them at a time is what changed.
Eventually, every player gets every champ, even if they just pull them in the basic crystal. You're correct that this is about time. And that's the point. That time isn't insignificant, and changing that delay from 12 months to six months to three months is extremely important, because that's what the game is currently selling. The people who spend get them sooner, the players who don't get them later. Closing that gap by any amount has the potential to devalue that spending advantage, and erode spending itself. And it is impossible to know in what specific way, because humans are not predictable or linear. They don't notice changes, until they do. Changing the delay by a month could have zero impact on spending, but changing it by one single day more on top could be the straw that breaks the camels back and causes a dramatic shift in spending.
What I can certainly see from the outside, is that this seems to be a frustration amongst the playerbase. No one is guaranteed to pull a champ from a crystal eventually. You and I both know that’s not how this game works, there is no system that guaranteed you will get a champ eventually. And that’s why they sell time, and odds.
Of course we don’t want to discourage spending. But we also need to find a way to improve this for the wider playerbase. I don’t know if you agree with that, or even if you think there is a problem. I think there is.
I don’t think the old featured system is the perfect solution, you’ve shown there is clear flaws in it. I would be a fool to deny that. But I also can’t see a better solution to the problem. It’s clear you have one of the best grasps on the game amongst the community. I’ve observed that other the years. I would interested to hear if you have a better solution to this frustration that has arisen, if you think there is a problem that is.
So before you try to tackle "the problem" I think you need to decide what the problem is, or in this case how much frustration is reasonable. If your target is zero, I think that's an unsolvable problem. But if you think some specific level of frustration is acceptable, and the current one is too high, that might be a solvable problem. But the specifics I think matter here. For example, the devs recently introduced the dual class crystals for 5* champs. That significantly improves the ability to target champs, without allowing explicit targeting of a single champ. That is an improvement, but I think it doesn't give some players what they want. They want certainty both in terms of what champ they target and when they are guaranteed to eventually get it. And I think that certainty is something they will never get, or can get in this game.
If you ask how do we get from our current level of targeting to some other level of targeting, I might either say how I think that could be done or say I think that's not possible to do, or say I think that level of targeting is too high for the game. But if you ask how do we address frustration in general, I think that's not a well-defined problem with a solution.
Of course there is going to be frustration, as you say, it’s part of the game.
To me, a reasonable timeframe is one to two months for a new champ to become more widely accessible. Enough to reduce frustration and allow normal players to play with new champs if they want to in a reasonable timeframe, but still keeps the competitive edge for spenders since AW meta moves month to month
It’s less to do with targeting, and more to do with access to champions in terms of time.
What this does is pushes out players who’s progression could actually benefit from the top 300. And while that’s fine with how it’s set up, it’s why people want a 5* basic, so that these accounts that aren’t at the top of the game can achieve the necessary points to win champions that will actually benefit them
Fundamentally this game is built upon chasing champions. This would end the chase for a sizeable percentage of the player population. This would be game breaking in the literal sense. It isn't a question of how, of finding a smart way to do it. The result itself, however you accomplish it, where the majority of players acquire which ever champs they want on these time scales, would I believe destroy the game extremely quickly.
Dr. Zola