Angela Does Not Work for Biohazard+Bloodletting

So, Angela got murdered on this node. Is bloodletting supposed to compute after her sig ability and this is working as intended, or is this a bug, as her sig ability seems like it should lessen the time of bleed from all nodes? Just seeking clarification.

Comments

Pulyaman

We need more info. What is your sig level of Angela. Because at max sig, she needs 3 buffs to reduce the duration by 100%. May be bloodletting is negating that because it increases the duration by 100%.

Lvernon15

It all works in flat values so you’ll need 200% duration decrease

Whiskey_Poet

@Pulyaman , she is max sig. It is more a question for Kabam. If it adds the 100% before her sig ability is factored, it would decrease the entire duration by 100%. It is factoring in Bloodletting additional bleed time after her sig ability, therefore bleeding her with 3 or 4 buffs. Just wondering if this is the way they intended this.

Basically, 7 second bleed, let's say, plus 7 seconds of bleed (+100% duration) reduced by 100% would be zero seconds. Or even if you count her sig ability first, 7 seconds of bleed minus 100% would be zero seconds, so 100% additional of zero seconds would be zero. The nodes really shouldn't work like this.

Pulyaman

@Pulyaman , she is max sig. It is more a question for Kabam.

Alright.

TyEdge

People always wanna multiply but it’s addition and subtraction. It’s +100%. Omega Red has a similar issue with nodes that cause extra bleed potency. People want to apply masteries, say it’s zero, and that 40% more than zero is still zero, but that isn’t the right calculation.

Pulyaman

People always wanna multiply but it’s addition and subtraction. It’s +100%. Omega Red has a similar issue with nodes that cause extra bleed potency. People want to apply masteries, say it’s zero, and that 40% more than zero is still zero, but that isn’t the right calculation.

Actually, I think OR does not take bleed damage even from nodes with more potency if you have 1 point in coagulate.

Djin

Biohazard + Bloodletting - Max Sig(3 buffs)
100% + 100% - 105.15%
Which still leaves 94.85% of the duration.

MCOCHazza

People always wanna multiply but it’s addition and subtraction. It’s +100%. Omega Red has a similar issue with nodes that cause extra bleed potency. People want to apply masteries, say it’s zero, and that 40% more than zero is still zero, but that isn’t the right calculation.
Actually, I think OR does not take bleed damage even from nodes with more potency if you have 1 point in coagulate.

He does. I had 1/3 in coagulate and went on a lane with enhanced bleed and biohazard or caltrops (can’t exactly remember) and he took damage. I have made a thread on this a while ago.

I’m assuming it’s the same thing OP.

Pulyaman

People always wanna multiply but it’s addition and subtraction. It’s +100%. Omega Red has a similar issue with nodes that cause extra bleed potency. People want to apply masteries, say it’s zero, and that 40% more than zero is still zero, but that isn’t the right calculation.
Actually, I think OR does not take bleed damage even from nodes with more potency if you have 1 point in coagulate.
He does. I had 1/3 in coagulate and went on a lane with enhanced bleed and biohazard or caltrops (can’t exactly remember) and he took damage. I have made a thread on this a while ago.

I’m assuming it’s the same thing OP.

Ok, thanks. I have not noticed that, is there anywhere I can check this?

MCOCHazza

People always wanna multiply but it’s addition and subtraction. It’s +100%. Omega Red has a similar issue with nodes that cause extra bleed potency. People want to apply masteries, say it’s zero, and that 40% more than zero is still zero, but that isn’t the right calculation.
Actually, I think OR does not take bleed damage even from nodes with more potency if you have 1 point in coagulate.
He does. I had 1/3 in coagulate and went on a lane with enhanced bleed and biohazard or caltrops (can’t exactly remember) and he took damage. I have made a thread on this a while ago.

I’m assuming it’s the same thing OP.
Ok, thanks. I have not noticed that, is there anywhere I can check this?

There’s a path in act 5 when I did exploration. It’s in 5.4.6, portal to the biohazard and bleed and poison lane. Both of those have an enhanced bleed fight, I believe. On the biohazard path it’s deadpool, the third opponent on the path, and in the bleed path, it’s BPCW, the first opponent. I just remember doing it a while back and being like ‘why am I taking damage if I have 100% bleed resistance’ and then I understood.

Whiskey_Poet

How it reads, it is still funny math. If they increase the duration of the original bleed, her sig ability should reduce the percentage of the total. If it extends the duration of the actual bleed, it would extend a percentage of zero if she has three buffs. They are using really funny math.
In the separate thread, there is a workaround by using Odin prefight abilities for extra buffs, but one shouldn't have to use it.

ItsDamien

How it reads, it is still funny math. If they increase the duration of the original bleed, her sig ability should reduce the percentage of the total. If it extends the duration of the actual bleed, it would extend a percentage of zero if she has three buffs. They are using really funny math.
In the separate thread, there is a workaround by using Odin prefight abilities for extra buffs, but one shouldn't have to use it.

Funny math?

100% + 100% = 200% that's the enhanced bleed duration.

Max sig + 3 buffs is -105.15%.

200% - 105.15% is?

Whiskey_Poet

@ItsDamien, if you double something (200%), then reduce that by 100%, you get zero. That's math. I see what they are doing, but it is funny math.

ItsDamien

@ItsDamien, if you double something (200%), then reduce that by 100%, you get zero. That's math. I see what they are doing, but it is funny math.

If you reduce a percentage by a percentage it doesn't get rid of the entire percentage. Because that's not how percentages work. If you take a fraction of a fraction, you still end up with a fraction.

Whiskey_Poet

When you apply percentages to an actual time (Like 7.5 seconds on the node) and increase and decrease it by a percentage, that's exactly how percentages work.

Whiskey_Poet

7.5 increased by 100% is 15. 15 decreased by 100% is zero. Or 7.5 decreased by 100% is zero. Increase zero by 100% is still zero.

Bendy

As @ItsDamien said 100%-100% from 200% is still 100%

With angelas sig theres still a 95% duration with 3 buffs due to theres still another 100% duration its like enhance abilities like bleed omega red 1 coagulate is 100% but if higher than 100% like 120% u need more points in it since theres still extra potency to get rid of its why enhance mephisto aura for red hulk to not be damaged by it he needs sig 200 which puts him above the extra damage from it.

Saiyan

You're probably gonna need Odin or Haimdall to add extra buffs at the start to deal with this one.

Djin

7.5 increased by 100% is 15. 15 decreased by 100% is zero. Or 7.5 decreased by 100% is zero. Increase zero by 100% is still zero.

What you are doing is multiplicative.
But the implementation in MCOC is additive.
Different games use different methods.

unknown

This content has been removed.

Whiskey_Poet

I get what you are saying. The only thing is that it causes a problem of which percentage takes priority. Kabam have used a simple solution for that. A percentage is applied on a base stat and then added together. This is the general rule (exceptions might exist).
If you apply the percentages to a set time number, any order gives you zero. That's why I'm saying it is funny math.
Again, I see what they are doing, but mathematically, by reading the descriptions and applying the numbers, it is incorrect.

TyEdge

7.5 increased by 100% is 15. 15 decreased by 100% is zero. Or 7.5 decreased by 100% is zero. Increase zero by 100% is still zero.
What you are doing is multiplicative.
But the implementation in MCOC is additive.
Different games use different methods.

Kabam could fix make half these questions go away by listing it in game as “+100% bleed duration” or something like that. The other half would still ask anyway.

(I do think it is a fair question given the ambiguity, though.)

Whiskey_Poet

The thing is, why doesn't her sig ability apply to the additional duration? It doesn't say that it applies to only one part of a node? It reduces bleed by % per buff on her. Why would it not apply to the duration from Bloodletting as much as it applies to Biohazard in the first place. It is wrong, with or without delving into the math.

ItsDamien

The thing is, why doesn't her sig ability apply to the additional duration? It doesn't say that it applies to only one part of a node? It reduces bleed by % per buff on her. Why would it not apply to the duration from Bloodletting as much as it applies to Biohazard in the first place. It is wrong, with or without delving into the math.

My guess is that the sig ability is applied before nodes.

-105% (sig) + 100% (biohazard) + 100% (bloodletting) = 0.95

Whiskey_Poet

@ItsDamien, I'm sure you are right. Never doubted that. That's the way it seems to be set up. Just wondering from Kabam why it is set up that way, because that isn't the way it reads or "should" work. *shrug*

Dart1981

The thing is, why doesn't her sig ability apply to the additional duration? It doesn't say that it applies to only one part of a node? It reduces bleed by % per buff on her. Why would it not apply to the duration from Bloodletting as much as it applies to Biohazard in the first place. It is wrong, with or without delving into the math.
My guess is that the sig ability is applied before nodes.

-105% (sig) + 100% (biohazard) + 100% (bloodletting) = 0.95

I don't think that's right though, we are talking about durations here, The biohazard isn't 100%, its a value that is being increased or decreased by both Angela's sig ability and bloodletting. The 100% mentioned in the node for Biohazard is the amount of damage. The only way I can imagine Angela taking damage in this instance is if her sig ability only reduces duration of unadjusted amounts as opposed to the increased duration, which is not how her sig is written since she reduces over 105% of damaging debuff duration, which in this case would be 15 seconds (7.5 + 7.5)

Djin

The thing is, why doesn't her sig ability apply to the additional duration? It doesn't say that it applies to only one part of a node? It reduces bleed by % per buff on her. Why would it not apply to the duration from Bloodletting as much as it applies to Biohazard in the first place. It is wrong, with or without delving into the math.
My guess is that the sig ability is applied before nodes.

-105% (sig) + 100% (biohazard) + 100% (bloodletting) = 0.95
I don't think that's right though, we are talking about durations here, The biohazard isn't 100%, its a value that is being increased or decreased by both Angela's sig ability and bloodletting. The 100% mentioned in the node for Biohazard is the amount of damage. The only way I can imagine Angela taking damage in this instance is if her sig ability only reduces duration of unadjusted amounts as opposed to the increased duration, which is not how her sig is written since she reduces over 105% of damaging debuff duration, which in this case would be 15 seconds (7.5 + 7.5)

100% here is 7.5
100% of x = x

xNig

Just to clarify to confusion.

In this scenario, percentages are applied on the BASE duration.

So if the bleed lasts for 7.5 seconds (base), bloodletting increases it by 7.5 seconds to 15 seconds.

Angela's Sig at max (100% reduction for simplicity's sake), reduces the duration by 7.5 seconds, which still leaves a duration for the bleed to tick away at her.

Most of the stuff in this game is additive and not multiplicative. Makes it simpler.

DNA3000

People always wanna multiply but it’s addition and subtraction.

In most cases this is true, like in this case specifically, but just FYI I have learned that it is sometimes additive and sometimes multiplicative and the devs decide which depending on how they want the ability/node/effect to work. I was recently corrected on this when it came to Poison: poison's heal reductions are multiplicative, and that's a deliberate design decision, and the devs further clarified that whether effects work additively or multiplicatively is baked into the effects when they are designed, based on what makes the most sense to the designer at the time.

This is one of the most poorly documented mechanical details in the game. In most cases only experience will tell you which way the effect was implemented in the game.

TyEdge

People always wanna multiply but it’s addition and subtraction.
In most cases this is true, like in this case specifically, but just FYI I have learned that it is sometimes additive and sometimes multiplicative and the devs decide which depending on how they want the ability/node/effect to work. I was recently corrected on this when it came to Poison: poison's heal reductions are multiplicative, and that's a deliberate design decision, and the devs further clarified that whether effects work additively or multiplicatively is baked into the effects when they are designed, based on what makes the most sense to the designer at the time.

This is one of the most poorly documented mechanical details in the game. In most cases only experience will tell you which way the effect was implemented in the game.

Great call. That’s why poisons never reverse healing, right? (Contrast that to petrify). I still feel like the majority of the questions could be addressed by putting a + or x in the text description.