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Why the arena scores for Hercules don’t signal how broken the system is

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    GOTGGOTG Posts: 1,040 ★★★★
    It seems OP doesn't understand that there will be a god tier champ released every 2 or 3 months and the arena score will jump overtime. So it's 125 millions for Shang Chi, 170 millions for Hercules and 200 millions for next great champions. It's guaranteed.

    Now it's hard to say the system is broken or not. Personally I don't think it's broken - never it was - and I totally fine with it. Because I never tried to grind Arena for top rewards. But someone does, and for those who grind arena it's a nightmare to chase a moving goal post and I understand why they hate it.
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    MrInsanityMrInsanity Posts: 1,539 ★★★★
    grfvb said:

    love it DNA.. now that is a the way to do an analysis, backed up with proper stats and math... @DNA3000 on theoretical level, assume a certain account has all 6* r3 champs, have unlimited units for refreshes and unlimited max boosts, they all so skip sleeping and eating and lit grinded 72h non stop - what is the max score possible?

    Well 300k a round if each one takes 2 minutes is 9 mil per hour, so 72 hours would be 648,000,000
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    Unio77Unio77 Posts: 2,539 ★★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    awesomesauce said:

    The_Sentry06 said:

    The arena system is still broken though.

    Honestly I dont know how people have so much free time to obtain these insane scores.

    I dont mind that they only reward the feature champ to the top 100, but they really should change the basic 6* arena to the top 5 or 10% to get the reward. I think a lot more people would be compelled to push the basic arena, thus potentially lowering the insane scores that the feature champ goes for.

    170m score, assuming no boosts/starting streak already at 5 (3x multiplier) and lets say ONLY using 6* champs averaging 64k per win... thats roughly 2,656.25 fights. and that 170m isnt even the cutoff, it was 172 something.

    Thats a total of 885.4 rounds, assuming every fight was won.

    Lets take it a step further, if you experienced no latency, connection issues, or crashes (all while playing as effeciently and like a pro every fight)
    on apple devices average round take around 70 seconds including load screens, on an android itll be about 90 seconds.

    885.4 rounds x average time = total time (approximately)
    apple = 17.216 hours
    android = 22.135 hours

    and that's being absolutely optimal & perfect conditions.
    A lot of people are willing to trade time for resources, and did mega 1000+ round grinds. But for people wondering what the optimal scoring grind might be, the actual place to look first is featured Cavalier crystals.

    The odds of pulling the 6* featured champ from a featured Cav crystal is 0.92%. That means we'd expect to pull that champ on average once out of every 108.7 crystals, which translates to about 32609 units. That's a rough estimate of how many units it would be reasonable to spend to get the champ: if you're spending a lot more than that, you might as well buy featured Cavs (of course, things aren't perfectly straight forward: you could still miss buying that many crystals due to random chance, but over the long haul if you target enough champs this way things will average out: in any case this is the statistical average value). 32609 units translates roughly into 543 rounds of refreshes with 6* champs.

    If you're spending units on refreshes to grind for a featured champ, you should be boosting. Using 1.3x boosts on rank 3 6* champs you should be earning about 300k per round. So those refreshes should generate something like 163 million points under optimal conditions, just from those units refreshes, if you spent the maximum you would reasonably ever want to spend.

    How much total points you would score would then depend on how much time you want to spend. Let's say a player was willing to spend a thousand rounds total. That would mean an additional 457 rounds. If you did seven complete rounds during a three day arena event (this is theoretically possible with help requests) it would take 195 6* champs to exclusively use 6* champs for 65 rounds and seven cycles or 455 rounds total, which would get us to 998 total rounds. There aren't that many 6* champs yet, but we're getting there. If we assume averaging something like 190k points per round for those rounds (this assumes the entire roster isn't ranked to r3, which would be impossible for the foreseeable future) we'd get 86,450,000 points. That would mean the theoretical "reasonable" maximum grind for a thousand rounds of time is about 250 million points. I should stress this is currently unachievable (the part about only using 6* champs, not the raw points), but top player rosters are gravitating towards this amount. This is also not the theoretical maximum, because players could decide to spend more than 1000 rounds on a featured grind (and do). But this is one data point when trying to determine how high scores can go. They can go at least this high without expending more effort than people are already doing now, with some roster growth and assuming throwing the maximum amount of units that is economically reasonable.

    A thousand rounds is probably on the order of fourteen hours a day, and you'd have to eat and sleep on your champion recharge cycle, which means grinding into the night as that cycle drifts relative to the sun. But I've had harder work weeks, it is not a super human amount of effort. It probably does mean pausing most of the rest of your life for 72 hours though.

    Throw in 5* champs and releasing the 1000 round limit, and you get all kinds of combinations of effort and units that can equal or surpass the 250 million point limit. But I think it is unlikely we will see cutoffs cross that point any time soon, because while it is possible some extremely dedicated people will shoot for scores above that to get warbound one day, I think that score is approaching the practical economic limits of grinding for a 6* champ even before it reaches the human limits.
    Bravo
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    gohard123gohard123 Posts: 998 ★★★
    Doom, Surfer, Apoc or CGR in the new arenas would go for comparable scores. Even Corvus would go high and he has been in the 6* crystals for a super long time
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    HieitakuHieitaku Posts: 1,368 ★★★★★
    edited July 2021
    DNA3000 said:

    MrInsanity said:

    grfvb said:

    love it DNA.. now that is a the way to do an analysis, backed up with proper stats and math... @DNA3000 on theoretical level, assume a certain account has all 6* r3 champs, have unlimited units for refreshes and unlimited max boosts, they all so skip sleeping and eating and lit grinded 72h non stop - what is the max score possible?

    Well 300k a round if each one takes 2 minutes is 9 mil per hour, so 72 hours would be 648,000,000
    That sounds about right. This would also cost 129,600 units if done with nothing but refreshes. If we assume they have the maximum amount of 6* champs, which is getting close to 200 including new champs and trophy champs and basically everything player ownable, you could conceivable do about 462 rounds in three day, which would leave the other 1698 rounds requiring refreshes, or about 101880 units. That's about $3300 USD of units.

    If you spent that on featured Cavalier crystals, you could buy just about 340 of them. You'd expect, on average, to get about 12 random 6* champs, 65 5* champs, 16 5* Nexus crystals, 3 6* Nexus crystals, and you should expect to pull the featured 6* champ about 3 times on average.

    So continuous 72 hour refresh would probably not be an efficient use of units.
    Question: When you use units to refresh a champion in arena, will the timer from before you refreshed it continue to tick down? Or will it have a new timer with a fresh cooldown time?

    (This is for the 2nd question)
    If yes, then inserting refreshes between the natural cooldowns will push the latter forward and forward, and grinding for the entire 72-hour period will actually consume more units than originally thought.

    If no, then carry on.
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    PulyamanPulyaman Posts: 2,365 ★★★★★
    @Hieitaku The timer is reset when you hit the refresh and the timer starts from 11.00.00 after you use the champ. So, a new timer with a fresh cool down.
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    HieitakuHieitaku Posts: 1,368 ★★★★★
    Pulyaman said:

    @Hieitaku The timer is reset when you hit the refresh and the timer starts from 11.00.00 after you use the champ. So, a new timer with a fresh cool down.

    Right. It won't be that huge of an impact anyway. Just refresh the 3 fastest champs you have and let the others refresh as normal.
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    JessieSJessieS Posts: 1,391 ★★★★
    SpideyFunko said:

    Since people saw the high arena cutoff for six star Hercules, (170,280,131 to be exact) there have been some posts and comments about how the system is broken, and how this spells doom for the arena system going forward. These concerns are somewhat valid, as this score is on the high side and the general playerbase doesn’t want to grind out that much for a six star, with what the unit cost to refresh and the sheer roster depth required. Not to mention it’s an utter time sink and most of us have real life responsibilities. However, this score is at this point, incredibly rare and is not the norm, and therefore shouldn’t be fussed over. Now, those of you of the aforementioned “What’s next, 250 mil?” group may not simply take my word for it, so I have some data compiled from https://www.reddit.com/r/ContestOfChampsArena/ about the previous featured arena scores, along with some basic math for comparison.

    The first round of the Black Widow Deadly Origin arena was run a week ago. She was the featured champion, and 95th place on the leaderboard netted a six star version of her with 79,229,316 points. Doing the math, that’s a gap of 91,050,815 points between 95th in the BWDO arena, and 100th in the Hercules arena. Now, you may be saying, “But Spidey! BWDO wasn’t a new champion, this comparison isn’t fair!” Well, let’s take the scores from the Overseer arena and compare with the ones from Hercules just like above. 95th place in the Overseer arena was given with a score of 140,500,125 points. Again doing the math, this time our gap is a much smaller 29,780,006 points. Still almost a gap of 30 million. But once again, I can hear your voice: “But Spidey! Overseer is a mediocre science champion unlike the hyped beast that is Hercules!” Alright, fine. Why not the scores from the Shang-Chi featured? This time, we can compare two number 100 scores. The last spot to get a six star in the Shang-Chi arena was achieved with a whopping score of 129,236,072. That equates to a gap of 41,044,059 points.

    As the data and comparisons show, this first round of the Hercules arena was very high, even by the standards of the arena. And why is that? There’s a very simple answer to that question. The arena system isn’t broken. Hercules is. You don’t believe me? Let’s begin. First off, let’s hit the suicides angle. Is he friendly? Yes. He takes 50% less damage from bleeds, up to 80% if you run max coagulate. He takes 15% less damage from poison and reduces it’s healing reduction 20% less effective. He also has a synergy with himself that gives him +15% attack while suffering from the poison applied by Liquid Courage. Getting into his feats of strength, the main way he deals damage. He can get a feat in one of three ways: Intercepting the opponent, hitting a non stunned opponent with any hit of a heavy attack, and standing up after being knocked down. These can stack up to twelve and each feat of strength gives him 186.96 armor penetration and all attacks deal a burst of physical damage equal to 10% of the damage they dealt. When Herc completes a feat, he gains +50% buff duration and 1001.28 attack rating for 2 seconds. If Herc uses a special attack during that 2 second window, the bonus remains until the special attack is finished. Additionally, the first time a unique feat is completed in a fight, he gains a persistent charge. When Hercules starts a fight with persistent charges, he starts the fight with a number of strength equal to the number of persistent charges. Now this gives Hercules, when at 12 twelve strength, the ability to deal an additional 120% of damage on top of his basic attacks.

    You’re thinking, so what, it’s just damage. Ghost has damage. Doom has damage. In addition to this damage, whenever Herc has a feat of strength, he becomes stun immune. Anytime he would be stunned, he just loses a feat instead. Encroaching stun, mesmerize, etc. As long as he has strength, he isn’t affected. If he dashes back after the first medium or light in a combo he inflicts a 7 second Infuriate debuff, which reduces the opponent’s offensive ability accuracy by 60% and makes them more aggressive, which allows for easier intercepts and helps to work around passive ai. Now, onto his specials. His special 1 gives a precision buff increasing his crit rate by 2150 for 25 seconds, but if you intercept the opponent with the special 1 you gain an additional two more. It also gives a true sense buff allowing him to ignore miss and auto block effects for 16 seconds. This makes him an option for Tunnel Vision or any pesky auto block/miss champions you may have problems with. His special 2 gives a 15 second cruelty buff increasing his critical damage rating by 1262.7. As with the special 1, if he intercepts the opponent with this attack, he gains two more. Also inflicts a three second stun debuff at the end. These two special attacks combined make him not only crit very often, but they also pack a real punch. Adding on his 120% damage from the feats of strength, and the opponents melt faster than ice in the sahara. His special 3 gives him a 4 second indestructible buff, and if the opponent has their special 3 afterwards he gets a power gain buff giving him a bar of power over 3 seconds.

    Now for his signature ability. Along with giving him up to 35% combat power rate for 2 seconds after completing a feat, he gets an immortality buff that lasts from 3.9 to 9 seconds depending on his sig level. Now, normally this is a neat little bonus that can save you. However, what’s unique about this immortality is that while Hercules is using his specials or landing his basic combo hits, this buff is paused. Meaning it can last a lot longer if you attack with Hercules. This is so so so incredibly handy and is yet another great piece of utility. For more on Herc and his wide range of uses, please check out this showcase by @Karatemike415
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFauAO4Q2BY&list=PL5r3auj5KC63oJawD6Fs-Q_Ppwyhzt--h&index=15 Plus, he’s top 5 prestige in game. That’s another big one.

    This kinda deviated from an arena post to a here’s what hercules can do post, but I hope you found it informative. As a reminder, the arena scores are not all going to suddenly become close to the 200mil range like Hercules, only when an incredibly broken champion like Herc comes around. Thanks for reading, and have a splendiferous day

    It doesn’t really matter much if it’s 170 mil or 80 million. Both are absolutely absurd and only hardcore no lovers could ever come close . If Kabam wants more people to use the arena all they have to do is expand the ranking rewards . Instead of the first 100 the first 1000 should get the six stars and the first 5000 should get the five star. Even so only a tiny part of the fandom would put the effort but a LOT more people would be willing to try

    I personally wouldn’t because that’s an usher time commitment but increasing the rewards can only help.
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    ThatGuyYouSaw235ThatGuyYouSaw235 Posts: 3,145 ★★★★★


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