Why All The Hate?

She shuts down power gain from abilities, not from combat power rate.

I.e. she can shut down and reverse Hyperion power gain buff, but she can’t shut down the power you give the enemy by hitting them

Jeal79

Ahhh... Now I understand.
Doesn't seem all that useful then.
I'll stick to Magik & Psylocke

Jeal79

Misleading post by OP was what made me believe different...

... Turns out the circumstances for this outcome to be true will be very rare indeed.

I guess it comes down to preferred play style. Personally I'd rather be able to throw two specials and be done with it. And I've had no problem keeping 4 stacks up. The fact that S2099 can get up to 700% is cool, but would never be necessary, maybe it will be one day, but keeping America at 180%-240% is more than enough.

You say 75% base, but it takes 5 heavys to get that 75%, then have to get to sp2 to shut it down. Sometimes it's very beneficial to reverse it quicker than that. (Again, talking base kit/non synergy reliant here)

As for the debuff reliant thing, there are a lot of nodes/paths where all champs are debuff immune, or mighty charge where they shrug them all off, or tenacity nodes, or nodes where they gain attack for each debuff, etc.. Having any ability not be debuff reliant is very beneficial.

So i guess we can just chalk it up to personal preference here, but personally I'd take America's over S2099.

It wasn't misleading lol, we're clearly talking about ability power gain. A simple read through of her abilities and you would have answered your own question.

Getting to sp2 isn’t hard though? Especially since you reverse it you can use your sp2 to push them to an sp3, and just watch the power tick back down. I meant base as in base from the exhaustions.

I think you’re missing my point with the debuff reliant thing. Power gain + debuff immune/shrug off etc is a niche combination. How many paths in act 6 or act 7 have those two combinations? What percentage is it that would be enough to warrant it being important.

If 50% of power gain nodes had debuff shrug/immunity, sure, that’s important. But if it’s 2%, 5%? Even 10%? How low do you have to get before it’s evident that power control based on a debuff just isn’t a big deal.

You say there’s a lot of paths where all champs are debuff immune, but how many of those champions have power gain? In a path of 7 or 8 champs you’d probably get 1 dr strange or one Hyperion. In that one path, on that one champ yeah maybe Chavez has a use, but it’s genuinely not enough to use as an example of non-debuff power control to be that important.

Jeal79

"Two heavies and the opponent never gains power, period"

Should read...

"Two heavies and the opponent never gains power from any power-gain ability"

Given that's what her ability is I'd turn instead to one of the dozen champs in the game who perform better as a power control champ.

You gotta admit that only being able to influence ability power gain is pretty niche. And a long way second to actually switching it off completely (through all means).

I did a test against Hyperion and despite having 4 negative zones, the power I was giving him through contact hits was still allowing him to fire off the odd sp1. Seems a bit useless IMHO

I know getting to an sp2 isn't hard, but it's definitely not as quick or easy as two heavys, and that's the point I'm trying to make.

And I'm not missing your point, I think you may be missing mine. I agree it's not something that's going to be relevant every fight, and I'm not trying to say it's some game breaking thing to have non debuff power control, but there are plenty of scenarios where it would be useful, so that makes it a pro over S2099, which is what we're talking about.

I would still prefer America's power control over S2099's even without that aspect, just pointing out that it is indeed a benefit. There are plenty of scenarios where not giving the opponent debuffs is a benefit, so having an ability be non debuff reliant will always be better, doesn't really matter to what degree.

Yep, Spidey 2099’s power reversal absolutely shuts the opponent down. As in, the reversal is so powerful it will stop them getting to bars of power even if your combat hits give them combat power rate.

https://youtu.be/MJH4DBzfo30

Check out this vid, this is the absolute epitome of tough power gain content. Spidey 2099 makes it look easy. And before the comment about synergies is made, yeah, they’re in the game. They’re made to be used. It’s one synergy. Look at these fights, who are you more likely to bring, Chavez with one spare slot? Or AV and Spidey.

@Jake303AoS id be interested to see how Chavez handles this. If she were the best power control champ, I’m sure she makes it a cake walk

You must not be far enough along in the game to know the benefit of reversing ability power gain. Especially that quickly. To say it's useless is funny, and I'm sure you'll think differently as you progress.
FYI, the reason Hyp still got to his special is because he gains power through random power gain buffs. There are champs and fights where the power gain is passive and constant, therefore you will constantly be draining..

She would handle it the same or better. As long as he's gaining that same amount of power, she would have it reversed as well if not better by spamming heavys. The numbers are pretty clear.. And again, that's with a synergy, America wouldn't need that 🙂

I mean first of all, I know you aren’t taking this conversation too seriously since you definitely didn’t watch any of the 17 minute video and reply to me in 3 mins, I mean you likely didn’t watch at all.

I think you’re misunderstanding how the enhanced power gain node works. A champion with 200% enhanced power gain then needs 300% reduction to stop the power gain. They have their base 100% and then extra 200%. If you go to the fight at 6:28 you see that Strange’s power only starts reversing with 2 Wither debuffs and 5 exhaustion or 325% reduction.

Chavez would need 5 stacks of her dimensions to even stop that power gain. And trying to get 5 heavies off with the insane power gain he has is going to be a nightmare.

Go to 7.40 and check out how that power gain acts, and try and imagine Chavez getting 5 heavies off to even stop the power gain. Let alone reverse it.

But yeah, head to variant 3.2.2, record the fight and show me how well Chavez does for it if she’s the best at handling power gain.

Also it feels like you’re hiding a little behind the synergy point. Synergies are part of the game and are meant to be used to overcome challenges. If there’s a challenge to tank sp3s you don’t hear anyone saying “Oh no, don’t use ghost there she only has a synergy that lets her do it with Hood, not a good utility at all”.

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Well tbh I'm tired of going back and forth. You're the one pointing out how niche certain points I'm making are, yet they're way less niche than the scenario in the video you just sent.

And I've stated multiple times that I'm talking about base kit, not synergy reliant. I also stated that with synergy, S2099 is a contender. But again, I have always been talking about without synergies. Many people don't have AV, and many people wouldn't want him taking a spot on the team. I know full well the roll synergies play, and sometimes you don't have the champ, or you're not able to bring the champ, or you simply don't want the champ taking a spot on your team. All those factors make any ability that's synergy reliant a disadvantage.

You can keep bouncing around the main points I'm making and have reiterated throughout this post to try and further your opinion, but the points I have made are based on fact and support the original point of this post. S2099 is great and has strong power control abilities. I still say, base kit, and in most scenarios, America's is better. I've already spent way too much time on this thread today lol, so I'll just leave it at that. I appreciate the input and info tho, this game is complex and I welcome all knowledge and view points, so thanks to everyone for taking the time to share theirs.

Ok, so who's is better? We've been through S2099, and determined he can arguably be better with synergy, but we're talking without synergy, base kit, who do you say is better?

You’re trying to view this through the narrowest of keyholes so you only see the sliver of the conversation where Chavez is better, ignoring the rest of the room where spidey is better. You can’t say the game is complex, and then rule out a ton of factors that make Spidey better overall.

Also, regarding that dr strange fight I like how you went from “She would handle it the same or better” to “I'm tired of going back and forth”. Some could argue you realised you were wrong.

Claiming an opinion is fact based doesn’t make it so. But sure, if you’d like to claim your “fact based” opinion is right, go for it. Though I’m not sure many people are going to agree. Just like how Hercules isn’t better than ghost with hood synergy at tanking sp3s, and how sunspot isn’t better than gambit with horseman synergy at perfect block. Chavez isn’t better than spidey 2099 with AV synergy.

Graves_3

This is the prime example of moving the goal post. In your OP, you mentioned Chavez is the best at reversal of power gain and asked if anyone else is better. It then went to non synergy, base kit and non debuff reliant as the conversation progressed. It’s as if you are going to lengths trying to convince people about how good she is and dare I say, unsuccessfully.

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Never said my opinion is fact, just the points I'm making. I said I'm tried of going back and forth in response to not watching the full vid because I saw it's synergy based. Sounds like you're so interested in proving me "wrong" that you continue to ignore the thing I've repeated throughout this thread.

It's ridiculous I have to keep saying this, but I have always been talking about base kit. What if someone doesn't have AV (most don't)? Is S2099 still better? What if there are champ restrictions and you can't bring AV in? Is S2099 still better? What if you can only bring one or two champs? Etc..

Speaking of narrow keyholes, sounds like your only argument is that he's better with synergy, which I've gladly agreed is a valid argument, yet you're so scared to admit Chavez is better at base kit (what I've always been talking about) that you keep trying to dance around the point. My opinion remains the same, you're entitled to yours as well, but by all means keep attempting to validate yours by ignoring and altering the original point of the discussion to fit your narrative.

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I fully understand your point, and again agree that there is a huge benefit to S2099 with the synergy, but that's not what I had been talking about. The fact of the matter is that without the synergy, Chavez has easier and quicker access to reversal. Sure there will be niche fights where she may be handicapped, as there are for all champs and all abilities, but again that's not what I'm talking about.

My point from the beginning is, straight out of the gate, no synergy, no dupe, no chance of debuff loss, Chavez has better and quicker reversal than anyone else. This turned into, well S2099 with this synergy and in this scenario is better, and I'm happy to agree with you on that, but again, that is not what my original point was about.

And sure you can use any champ, but it makes it way less annoying to have that power gain under control. Not to mention when they don't want to throw specials, or have unblockable specials, or on all or nothing nodes etc.. But again, all that is irrelevant to the original point I was making.

I know you’re talking about base kit. But I’m saying that’s a pretty arbitrary rule to apply to the best champ for power reversal, seeing as one of the top champions in the game is routinely used with 2 or 3 synergy partners. If you want to clutch to that, be my guest.

But sure, since you’ve ignored most of what I’ve said even without referring to the synergy, (I can point you to several instances I made points without the synergy that you’ve conveniently forgotten), I’ll list it out for you here, unless - or how did you put it - I’m scared to admit she’s better?

Spidey is better for spite, better for enhanced power gain, gets around immunity to power manipulation, stronger power gain reversal (Chavez hovers around 180-240% whereas Spidey can get to 200% in around the same time), Chavez struggles to keep up over 240 when Spidey just doesn’t with his pausing mechanic. Spidey has a quick 1 hit heavy, Chavez had a 3 hit heavy which takes up a lot of time that the opponent has the opportunity to gain more power. A quick heavy is beneficial in fast power gain match ups. If you don’t believe me, go test out that dr strange match up and see how much power gain he gets during your long heavy.

Chavez’ also falls off, the first 60% is 30 seconds, the next is 24, the next is 18, the next 12 and the next 6. This means she’s just not as reliable once the fight gets going and once the reversal has been applied. It may be ok in your average power gain match up that any champ can deal with without nodes, but when you really need good reliable power reversal, it doesn’t cut the mustard.

The one part that Chavez is better at than spidey is getting the reduction on. But even then, Spidey doesn’t take ages to apply his reduction.

To ramp to 180% reduction Chavez has to do 3 heavy attacks, her heavy is slow and 3 hits compared to Spidey’s quick 1 hit heavy.

Just quick testing right now, For Chavez, the quickest I could get was 10 seconds to do 3 heavies. Really great, I’m not here to say she’s bad at everything, I’m being objective. But when it takes me 22 seconds to do 4 heavy attacks and an sp2 with Spidey 2099 which is a reduction of 185%, it’s not like spidey lags behind enough to be worse overall.

So aside from getting the reduction on fast, once Spidey gets to his first sp2 he is categorically better than Chavez. He pauses his reversal, doesn’t have to do anything to keep it going except dex which is not hard. And after that his reversal just keeps stacking up and up, far higher than Chavez could ever get. Chavez beats Spidey in the first 200% reduction, after that, Spidey is immensely better.

So why is this important? Because the only fights that give the opponent enough power gain so that they will get to an sp3 in 20 seconds or less have enhanced power gain. Meaning that the only time it really, really matters to get Chavez’s quick power reduction on, she won’t actually reduce it enough to stop them getting to an sp3. She’d need 4 or 5 heavies to even stop the power, which just won’t be possible with how fast their power goes up.

The only other node that applies power fast enough that you need a reduction within 11 seconds is spite, but I think we both know Spidey is better for spite than Chavez.

If you’d like to keep clinging to the sinking ship that is “she can get the reduction on faster”, even though any real scenario that requires a reduction in 11 seconds means there is enhanced power gain, which means Chavez will not be able to handle it, feel free. But I think we both know getting it on in 11 seconds is not as important as you claim.

But hey, prove me wrong, go for that Dr Strange fight and show me how good her power reversal is.

Masterpuff

My guy that Wither lasts ages with his debuff pausing.

Masterpuff

I have close to no faith she could do each and every one of thee fights, care to prove me wrong? Id love to see.

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Wicket329

But @BitterSteel, what if you’re only playing Spidey with one hand and when your eyes are closed? Surely America is the better champ then!

I’m sorry for the snark, but that’s how the comments about AV not being readily available or not being able to bring him in read. AV, AC, and Spidey are *all* newer champs. None of them are readily available. To use that as a point of argument here is quite silly. Especially since both Spidey and AV are science champs and have lore connections, so it’s hard to imagine a classification gate that keeps one out but not the other.

As Bittersteel mentioned, Spidey’s ramp up (without synergy) is slower, yes. But not so much slower as to make a meaningful difference. From that point, it is easier to maintain and more effective. And the effectiveness is not niche. Almost every Variant has at least one path with massive passive power gain. Spidey will be able to 0 out those fights and cheese right through them with no power on the enemy. America will dramatically reduce their power gain, but if we’re talking a total of 300%, she won’t shut it down. And it won’t be reversed enough to compensate for combat power gain like Spidey can.

I’m not saying she’s a bad champion. But to claim she is *the best* at something in a game where everything is conditional and circumstantial is a wild stance to take. People keep talking about Spidey here, but there’ll be times where Void makes the most sense. There’ll be times where Doc Ock has the best power control utility. Magik will always be a part of this conversation.

The reason you’re getting all this pushback is because you are claiming she has the best, end-all be-all, implementation of passive power control, and that’s an unprovable claim. She’ll have her moments, but that doesn’t mean she’s The Best.

smdam38

I think Luke Cage is underrated for power control.
Was my go to for Hyperion in the old days for AQ.

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Rockypantherx

@BitterSteel @Jake303AoS this is my 4* America Chavez vs the V3 2.2 Dr Strange fight.

She can definitely do it, but you really need an aggressive AI. It’s almost impossible to completely shut down his ability power gain at any point, and the start of the fight is still very, very sketchy. For context, Dr Strange has already filled a bar of power by the time your first negative zone activates, and is pretty much at his second bar by the time your second one does, assuming he immediately plays into you.

For her to have any control over the fight, you need to have at least 3 negative zones up, and not have activated spite. I couldn’t finish the fight due to block damage trying to not activate spite

Another issue is that the decreased dimension duration really hits you in this fight. It’s set up in a way so that all your negative zones start to expire almost all at once. So you’re constantly being almost reset back to 0 control every 30 seconds in the fight, if you’re lucky you might be able to upkeep 1. 2 if you’re very cheeky at chaining you’re heavies

Is America Chavez underrated? Probably a bit. But the argument that her power control is superior because she can lock it down from the start just doesn’t hold up when your progress is all bug being reset every 30 seconds with ideal AI. She probably has an equilibrium point where the power gain is enhanced just enough to chain heavies in the corner for the entire match, but at a certain point she is unable to keep up

And one person who hasn’t been brought up in this debate is Doc Oc. I think I would argue he actually has the best power control out the gate, since you don’t need to land any attacks. That’s how most people get through this Dr Strange