Kabam never learns [Hawkeye Buff]

Rookiie

He had 3 lines in his ability set.

-Now, he’s got:
Bleeds
Dialed In
Paused Bleeds
Slow
Power Drain
Suppression
Fragility
Critical Bleeds
Reduces Physical Resistance

-via Synergy:
Increased Slow
Removes Rock Stacks & Rock Charges
Converts Bleeds to Poisons
Poison Immunity
Fury

Why are we complaining again?

Colonaut123

FluffyPigMonster said:

Colonaut123 said:

CyborgNinja135 said:

Aomine_Daiki10 said:

My only problem with the buff is that he needs to be duped now.

If you want the crit bleeds on sp1 and sp2 yes. Otherwise there seems to be plenty of damage in his base kit. Nontheless, we still need to test the buff ourselves to see come to a conclusion.

My calculations hints that @Aomine_Daiki10 is right. You need the Critical Bleeds in order to have more bleed damage with the SP1.

What are those numbers going to look like?

Also - does the sig ability scale anything? Physical resistance removal?

His main damage still comes from the bleeds, and bleeds bypass physical resistance anyway. This has more influence on basic attack and special attack damage against pesky Hulks. It is still nice though, as it can reverse and boost damage. I'm not complaining about that.

RetroRocks

I see what they’ve tried to do with Hawkeye’s buff, I’ll give them an A for effort. But it feels a C for implementation.
I’ll of course I will reserve full judgement for live testing, but surely it’s a bit of a missed opportunity.
Let’s remember we are talking about a real avenger here, a marvel classic, but no way will he be as good as Mole man, … what…mole man!?!? Who the flip is that!?!? No one cares about mole man, why is he even in the game!?!? that doesn’t sit well with me.

I also find it quite a joke that they have an ability celebrating perfect timing…. That’s coming from a game that for months now can’t fix the timing of some of their basic core gameplay mechanics.
I assume that’s meant to be ironic?!? But I’m not laughing.

His kit seems interesting, but he’s not gonna ever be a go to champ. Everything he does , someone else does better.
No epic synergies for the worlds greatest support player.
No real reason to pick him.
Plus it’s a small nerf to his only current base ability. His base kit right out of the gate allows the opponent to never throw a special if you have pacify and play nice and slow. Now they took that away, as if I read it right to get really good power drain you have to ramp him up.
Just not very happy, expected a great buff for one of the most famous marvel champs. Seems pretty meh. A little buff, but no reason to ever get him in your team.

Sigh, pretty sad about it, I was hoping for something special for a character so iconic.
Maybe it’s better than it reads, but not sure I’ll be ever bothered to find out when there are 200 other champs of random marvel comics no one reads who are better. Hawkeye once again falls into obscurity. That one power drain fight once a year you need him for… well forget it, can’t be bothered with his new fiddly ability, I’ll just take vision.….. I’m sure diablo is laughing… Some half baked rubbish villain people barely remember becomes a superstar from his buff. A classic avenger gets a little nerf and some fiddly gameplay.
I’m not saying the buff is bad, I’m just saying it’s not very good. That’s fine for your average champ. Hawkeye is not an average champ, kids grew up actually buying physical comics with Hawkeye on the front. That means something, to me at least.

I hope I’m wrong or least he gets a little tune up on release to make him really good at something, and not just average at a lot of stuff.

Rockypantherx

Obviously, let’s wait and see how it turns out, there is no benefit to be found jumping to conclusions

But at the same time, I’m inclined to agree with you. In theory at least. I think I would rather have straight power drain in terms of utility, but I think for his new intended playstyle this new variation will work better

Colonaut123

DNA3000 said:

Colonaut123 said:

Pre-buff Hawkeye had one very good thing: a powerful, consistent, reliable power drain of 40% of max. Power with the SP1. This is the equivalent of 120% of a bar of Power. He was a one-trick kind of guy, but the player base enjoyed it because of it. Let me repeat: powerful, consistent, reliable.

Post-buff Hawkeye power drains for only 75% of a bar of Power with the SP1, a reduction of 45% of a bar of Power, or in relative terms, -37,5% less power drain. In a fight, that stacks a lot. If pre-buff Hawkeye would have used 5 SP1's, he would have drained 600% of a bar of Power, or the equivalent of six SP1, three SP2 or two SP3. Post-buff Hawkeye will have drained 375% of a bar of Power, or 225% of a bar of Power less. That's two extra SP1 or one extra SP2 you have to bait and dex more than before!

As gods, Kabam gives and takes away. With a Perfect Release, there is a 100% chance to inflict a Suppression Debuff, reducing the Opponent’s Combat Power Rate by 50% for 8 seconds. How to get that Perfect Release? During Special Attacks, press the Block after the first hit Input to slow down time. Releasing the Block Input precisely when Hawkeye releases the arrow grants this Perfect Release bonus.

As Hawkeye hasn't been released yet, we don't know what this Perfect Release thing looks like. But we do know one thing: a powerful, consistent, reliable power drain has been replaced by a less powerful, but same consistent, reliable power drain and a less powerful, less consistent, less reliable Suppression Debuff. A Debuff that can be shrugged off, can fail due to an immunity and requires you to attack the opponent and giving it power, but to a lesser degree. A Debuff that won't even be inflicted if you fail to do a Perfect Release.

In any match-up where power drain matters (Hyperion, Power Focus, Energize,...), you'll notice that post-buff Hawkeye performs worse than pre-buff Hawkeye. Also the synergy with Hercules changes: as it requires passing the threshold of a bar of Power to gain a Fury Buff, it is more difficult to do with post-buff Hawkeye than pre-buff Hawkeye.

I decided to experiment with this to try to figure out what the combined suppression + drain might look like, using Hawkeye on live and just recording some fights and retroactively applying the theoretical impact of the Hawkeye update.

In any fight where you're going to be using power control, you're likely to be attacking continuously, or nearly so. In those circumstances where I was spamming SP1 and trying to attack a lot, in eight seconds my attacks were giving the opponent approximately a bar of power. So hypothetically speaking, a 75% of a bar drain plus an 8 second suppression that reduced combat power gain by 50% would be 75% + 50% = 125% of a bar of power.

However, perfect release also applies a dialed in passive which increases debuff duration. As suppression is itself a debuff, its duration would be increased by up to 50%. At the maximum stack of 5, suppression would be reducing combat power rate by up to 12 seconds, which could reduce offensive power gain by up to 75% net power. That would be a total of 150% power either removed or suppressed off the target. That's higher than the 140% that OG Hawkeye drains with SP1 now.

We are comparing a power reduction of between 125% and 150% to one with an effective strength of 140%. If we assume that the first dialed in passive buffs the first suppression, then it is actually 130% - 150% compared to 140%. How long would it take for updated Hawkeye to catch up and overtake OG Hawkeye in terms of overall net power control, assuming he doesn't lose his dialed in stacks? Its basically five SP1s. Five OG Hawkeye SP1s have the same overall power control potential as updated Hawkeye. Moreover, the difference is small: 10% of one bar of power at worst.

There's no question that OG Hawkeye's power drain is easier to use, but is there anything updated Hawkeye gets in exchange for having a higher skill threshold? Actually, yes there is. Having a lower drain plus suppression allows updated Hawkeye to keep a target below one bar of power. You can't really do that with OG Hawkeye for the obvious reason that you can't get his maximum drain potential if the target is below one bar. He can't "bank" the extra drain. Updated Hawkeye can drain *all* of the power of a target that is under one bar of power, and then suppress them for a long enough period of time to prevent them from going above one bar of power before he gets back to SP1, whereupon he can cycle that again.

The combination of power drain and suppression will affect different fights in different ways. In situations where power gain comes more from direct ability gain and not from combat power gain (Hyperion for example), OG Hawkeye might have an edge. Where more power comes from combat power gain (for example, Energize and Power Focus) it is possible updated Hawkeye would have greater power control impact on the fight, because suppression would have a proportionately larger impact.

So updated Hawkeye's power control isn't actually inferior to OG Hawkeye. It has a higher skill threshold, but he does get something for that higher skill: an overall more effective power control capability. Whether this is a reasonable trade, and what it looks like in-game has yet to be determined, but this is most definitely not a case of the developers taking something away for nothing. Hawkeye isn't a worse power control champ. He may be a harder to play power control champ, but the numbers say his power control isn't quantitatively worse, and arguably qualitatively better.

@DNA3000

Three remarks about that.

1) Post-buff Hawkeye needs major start-up time.

According to your calculations, post-buff Hawkeye requires roughly 5 SP1's to become quantitatively the same as pre-buff Hawkeye. How many bars of Power does an average fight take? 6? Pre-buff Hawkeye has really the edge here, because he needs no start-up time. And then I don't address the blatant issue: after one SP1, post-buff Hawkeye already lags behind for 45% of a bar of Power. Only when the Suppression Debuff avoids 45% of a bar of Power, both champions result in equal power.

You mentioned that pre-buff Hawkeye more easily suffers from redundant power drain, power drain that goes to waste because you can't go below zero. That's true, but in terms of skills, it isn't that hard to maximize. Power that is below one bar of Power is useless, only going over the threshold matters. It isn't hard to go between 5-hit and 3-hit combo's to manage power so you maximise drainage.

But even if we assume that on average 20% of a bar of Power of power draining capacity is lost, is that bad? Not necessarily, as that is the goal. It means you have a buffer of 20%.

2) From a design-perspective, more complexity adds more opportunities for failure.

Pre-buff Hawkeye has two points of failure: failure to trigger the power drain because of AAR, and failure to power drain due to power drain immunity. Post-buff Hawkeye has points of failure: all the failures of pre-buff Hawkeye, failure to Perfect Release and subsequently loss of Dialed In Passives, failure to trigger the Suppression Debuff because of AAR, failure to apply the Suppression Debuff because of Suppression Debuff or regular Debuff immunity, removal of Suppression Debuff by nodes (Masochism) or purify ability (reduced debuff duration, tenacity, Kingpin or DDHK,...) and failure to take full advantage of the duration of the Suppression Debuff due to imperfect gameplay.

In no realistic world it isn't qualitatively better if you need to work harder to get the same/similar result as before.

One begs the question: why adding this complexity and not simply buffing his original power drain to 150% of a bar of Power? The Suppression Debuff could have been replaced by a Shock Debuff (E.M.P. Arrow, hello!).

3) Hercules synergy is less valuable.

Let's assume what you say is correct, that post-buff Hawkeye can consistently keep opponents under one bar of power. Hercules synergy requires that the power drain passes the threshold to get Fury Buff. Post-buff Hawkeye will have more trouble keeping up those Fury buffs, losing out damage. To be fair, pre-buff Hawkeye hasn't much damage anyway, so that might cancel out.

RetroRocks

FluffyPigMonster said:

C for implementation, however it hasn’t been implemented yet.

Sorry, maybe I wasn’t clear.
An A for the buff theory, as in which bits of kit they have embellished, the way they are increasing his skill cap, all great clever abilities that match his persona in the comics. Appreciate that bit, good champndesign.
The “implementation” issue is how they have re-written that into his actual new base abilities. Feels like the balance team in the game have got hold of him. Where were they when they released CGR or falcon… totally broken crazy mega champs I’m forced to play again and again as they are game breaking. Maybe that team were on holiday that month.
I am indeed only reading and not playing, so again I’ll admit I very easily could have got it wrong on how “effective” he is, but it doesn’t change the fact he has no stand out ability. He just does a bunch of stuff others in the game do, not a reason to pick him up. He does lots of things, all of them useful and good. Therefore a buff, not questioned.
Has he not got a stand out ability that makes him a character I will ever put in my team, I don’t see why I would.
He might still be great fun to play, and I hope he is, I quite like Hawkeye. Any power control match currently I’ll pick him up and use him when I can as I think he’s a cool character. I was hoping the buff would match that by giving him 1 really great ability/ utility or USP to pick him. On that point is where I think they “missed the mark” if you pardon the pun.
It’s a wider issue I see with the buff champs, with a huge roster of champs now , many are becoming less useful. It means you only end up ever playing with champs that have 1 brilliant killer ability as they are the best option for a niche fight. The era of the generalist is very much being removed in MCOC.
Great champs are released but no one really cares if they dont do something different.
Odin for instance, great , fun amazing champ. The consensus in my line chat is not really ever gonna use him, despite a great buff. I feel Hawkeye is wandering down the same path.

I really really hope I’m wrong and that on playing the buff is spectacular, but from me sitting down with a calculator for 5 mins, he seems certainly improved but a bit average. So a kinda pointless buff in the grand scheme of things. Might as well have kabam save their time and go design some other exciting content elsewhere.

Maybe that’s okay if Hawkeyes place is to be an also ran. But it really irritates me that low recognition uninspiring comic characters (you know, the kinda character the average person on the street never heard of like Diablo or mole man) get amazing game changing buffs that slap you in the face with awesomeness, but classic famous characters don’t.
I want to get excited to pop a Hawkeye or original cap America from a crystal. It’s a marvel game, they pay a massive amount of money for the licence , why don’t they make use of it in a way to make comic book fans even more excited?
I liked comics before they were cool, I’m not cool, but now they are…. Why can’t the classic avengers become cool too?!

Colonaut123

Searmenis said:

stop complaining just for the sake of it. And please convince us, that Hawkeye was a regular part of your roster, ta care that much about his "nerf".

This is a great buff overall btw, be happy for once.

I care about all champions, and I care about how Kabam handles buffs, because clearly, the principles they operate upon are flawed.

I need convincing why something in his kit that literally nobody complained about, heck, frequently complimented, had to be tuned down and be replaced with a more complicated, less player-friendly, overall quantitatively and qualitatively worse mechanic.

I probably wouldn't have made this discussion if it wasn't for the power drain. It baffles my mind. Why on earth would you risk this kind of backlash for some new flashy mechanic?

Ercarret

That -50% Combat Power Rate Reduction sounds insane, especially if it stacks. We'll see how easy it is to pull off, but as someone who was worried about Howard's minigame when he got buffed but has had absolutely no problems with it whatsoever since it went live, I have faith that Kabam won't have us jump through too many hoops to get the effect going.

The way I read his abilities, he'll be stronger vs regular champions but who just gain power from being struck, while slightly worse off vs champs with high power gain abilities. However, I'm okay with that as long as it works alright. I have Doom and a bunch of other mystics to nullify power gain buffs, I don't need Hawkeye for that.

CyborgNinja135

Ercarret said:

That -50% Combat Power Rate Reduction sounds insane, especially if it stacks. We'll see how easy it is to pull off, but as someone who was worried about Howard's minigame when he got buffed but has had absolutely no problems with it whatsoever since it went live, I have faith that Kabam won't have us jump through too many hoops to get the effect going.

The way I read his abilities, he'll be stronger vs regular champions but who just gain power from being struck, while slightly worse off vs champs with high power gain abilities. However, I'm okay with that as long as it works alright. I have Doom and a bunch of other mystics to nullify power gain buffs, I don't need Hawkeye for that.

If those supression debuffs can stack, then he'll be great against energize nodes. Something that is becoming more common lately.

BigPoppaCBONE

odishika123 said:

Let's see how he is in game first
Always complaining before gameplay comes doesn't always end well

When they give the data, abilities, and percentages and they use known mechanics, what's there to wait for?

DawsMan

I think you're right, don't fix what isn't broken. Maybe they should've switched it to 33% of max power, a full bar. But I don't think it's necessary. He's better. He is usable, and I'm a little excited to use my 6*.

BitterSteel

BigPoppaCBONE said:

odishika123 said:

Let's see how he is in game first
Always complaining before gameplay comes doesn't always end well

When they give the data, abilities, and percentages and they use known mechanics, what's there to wait for?

Numbers don’t lie, but statisticians do

OP has thrown some numbers around, and then (to paraphrase) concluded with “in my personal opinion the power drain is worse.” @DNA3000 has provided an opinion with data to back it up as well. But he’s actually used the data in the right way, he’s formed a hypothesis, put some numbers together and concluded that in this situation, we need to wait and see how it works in the game.

OP has an opinion, but it’s just that, an opinion. The suppression debuff may well provide much better power control alongside the power drain. I’m not going to say either way whether it definitely will or not, because this is one of those situations when testing seems to be required.

If OP was simply saying, look guys, these numbers seem to say that his power drain is worse, but we can’t be sure on the suppression until it’s tested. That’s fine, but all he’s said really, is the power drain is worse. He’s compared the percentage of power drained, which is like pointing out that 1 is less than 2, and then said well that settles it, his power control is worse than before.

OP literally only compared how much power Hawkeye drained before and after the buff, saying Pre buff can drain 600% with 5 specials, and post buff can drain 375%. Without even mentioning how much less power the opponent will gain during that time. And he didn’t mention that because he doesn’t know. We don’t know how it’ll work out until we test it.

If I were to construct an argument based on OP’s logic I’d say “Hawkeye’s power control is soooo much better than before, pre buff if HE hit the opponent 30 times they would get an sp3, but after the buff HE can hit them 60 times before they get an sp3!!! Look at that power control”. Conveniently ignoring the other aspect that is the power drain.

Numbers don’t lie, but statisticians do.

BigPoppaCBONE

BigPoppaCBONE said:

odishika123 said:

Let's see how he is in game first
Always complaining before gameplay comes doesn't always end well

When they give the data, abilities, and percentages and they use known mechanics, what's there to wait for?

There are plenty of things in this game where we should wait to see how they play out before giving a judgement. I wouldn't say Hawkeye sucks or is a killer now*, because we haven't tested him out in his entirety across a wider range of scenarios. We can definitely talk about and compare 1 aspect of his abilities pre- and post-buff that already have all their meaningful parameters given. That's just math.

*I actually do use the **** out of him for that easy power drain as I was blessed to get HE as one of my first 6 stars right after the 1st opportunities to get them, so I have much more experience with him than many other power drainers that weren't even available. Also, I like to have power drainers in each class and attributes and use them as appropriate situationally, so I would use HE instead of forcing #metal Doom, Magik instead of tech Vision, double immunity Dormammu instead of HE, Vision instead of etc., etc.

KyriosRais

ahh, ppl nowadays. claiming something as scientifically proved without thinking deeply.

CoMinow

Colonaut123 said:

But that is not accurate. Pre-buff Hawkeye has a consistent, reliable power drain of 120% of a bar of Power. That has been nerfed to 75% of a bar of Power, and replaced by a Suppression Debuff that reduces Combat Power Rate by 50%, which is not as good as a plain power drain.

I agree there is a reliability change and that it becomes apparent as the opponent get closer to an sp3. I also agree about the bleed however this comparison of 120% vs 75% is so radically flawed and is the perfect example of using statistical manipulation to make a point..

Fact post BUFF Hawkeye drains 75% off one bar 100% of the time
Pre-buff he drains 40% of the opponent’s current power. This means the opponent has to be at full power to drain your 120% however. If the opponent has only 1 bar you remove only 40%. You only surpass the 75% when the opponent reaches 2 bars and you drain 80% of 1 single bar( leaving the opponent 1.2 bars of power still. Whereas with the new BUFF you RELIABLY remove 75% of 1 bar instead of 40% while they are only at a single bar of power!

Meaning if you spam sp1 just before you and your opponent each reach your sp2, you will more reliably prevent your opponent from reaching another sp1 for longer than the pre-buff version… and no amount math manipulation that you do will change this fact

BitterSteel

Colonaut123 said:

BitterSteel said:

Colonaut123 said:

BitterSteel said:

Colonaut123 said:

Fenico said:

Im impressed how people can write whole books about champs they didnt see even 1 second of gameplay yet

I did the same thing with Guillotine, and I was right. It just requires reading the ability list and a calculator. Not really rocket science.

Being right 100% of the time looks a lot better than 1/1

I was also right with The Hood, and some people made the same remark it should be tested out first.

The difference here is that Hood had something flat out removed. The fate seal was gone.

Here, we need to wait and see whether the power control is as good, better or worse. Sometimes things are black and white, sometimes they aren’t.

But that is not accurate. Pre-buff Hawkeye has a consistent, reliable power drain of 120% of a bar of Power. That has been nerfed to 75% of a bar of Power, and replaced by a Suppression Debuff that reduces Combat Power Rate by 50%, which is not as good as a plain power drain.

That seems awfully like an opinion to me.

Before the buff
Hawkeye’s basic attacks gave the opponent 100% power
The power drained 120% of a bar of power

After the buff
Hawkeye’s basic attacks give the opponent 50% power
The power drains 75% of a bar of power

After a few specials when the debuff duration is increased enough to keep 100% uptime on the suppression, which an aggressive player will likely be able to do (subject to testing)

It seems like Hawkeye’s control about how much power the opponent gains has increased from 100% to 50% (2 times as good), but the power drained has been reduced from 120% to 75%, which is only 1.6 times worse. Seems like an even trade.

If he’s preventing the opponent from getting bars of power 2 times as well as before, and draining them 1.6 times worse than before. I’d say the numbers point towards him being better than before.

What I am going to say is that maybe we should wait, test and see if we can control the power as well as we can now.

Yes, a suppression debuff can be removed. But how often were you using Hawkeye (a champion who’s damage overwhelmingly comes from a bleed debuff) for tenacity match ups with power? That seems like an awfully niche, and unpleasant match up for a champion like Hawkeye. And besides, focus on shrug off as much as you’d like as a monumental con of suppression, but did you know that it ignores immunity to power control? So you can use it against annihulus, or the immunity node. That seems like a pretty niche pro to balance out your pretty niche con.

Your analysis is thorough, well thought out and based on reason. I can’t fault you for that, and it really was an interesting read. (I know the internet can often make things seem insincere but I do mean that). I just strongly disagree with your ability to make a conclusion as strong as this is nerfed until we have tested out to see how well it works in practice.

BigPoppaCBONE

BitterSteel said:

BigPoppaCBONE said:

odishika123 said:

Let's see how he is in game first
Always complaining before gameplay comes doesn't always end well

When they give the data, abilities, and percentages and they use known mechanics, what's there to wait for?

Numbers don’t lie, but statisticians do

OP has thrown some numbers around, and then (to paraphrase) concluded with “in my personal opinion the power drain is worse.” @DNA3000 has provided an opinion with data to back it up as well. But he’s actually used the data in the right way, he’s formed a hypothesis, put some numbers together and concluded that in this situation, we need to wait and see how it works in the game.

OP has an opinion, but it’s just that, an opinion. The suppression debuff may well provide much better power control alongside the power drain. I’m not going to say either way whether it definitely will or not, because this is one of those situations when testing seems to be required.

If OP was simply saying, look guys, these numbers seem to say that his power drain is worse, but we can’t be sure on the suppression until it’s tested. That’s fine, but all he’s said really, is the power drain is worse. He’s compared the percentage of power drained, which is like pointing out that 1 is less than 2, and then said well that settles it, his power control is worse than before.

OP literally only compared how much power Hawkeye drained before and after the buff, saying Pre buff can drain 600% with 5 specials, and post buff can drain 375%. Without even mentioning how much less power the opponent will gain during that time. And he didn’t mention that because he doesn’t know. We don’t know how it’ll work out until we test it.

If I were to construct an argument based on OP’s logic I’d say “Hawkeye’s power control is soooo much better than before, pre buff if HE hit the opponent 30 times they would get an sp3, but after the buff HE can hit them 60 times before they get an sp3!!! Look at that power control”. Conveniently ignoring the other aspect that is the power drain.

Numbers don’t lie, but statisticians do.

The combat power rate suppression throws the spanner because it varies in usefulness depending on the fight, requires a Perfect Release to even get in the first place and is a non-dot debuff. There's no need to watch it in action. These are all known. I'd rather have the 40% power drain. If they want to throw in variables like suppression, put it on top of the old power drain. They still don't have these buffs figured out as far as "Don't take away the simple good stuff and definitely don't replace it with technically somewhat situationally sometimes equivalent complexity". What was taboo about keeping the old pd and still adding PR: Suppression or Power Leak?

Bugmat78

RetroRocks said:

FluffyPigMonster said:

C for implementation, however it hasn’t been implemented yet.

Sorry, maybe I wasn’t clear.
An A for the buff theory, as in which bits of kit they have embellished, the way they are increasing his skill cap, all great clever abilities that match his persona in the comics. Appreciate that bit, good champndesign.
The “implementation” issue is how they have re-written that into his actual new base abilities. Feels like the balance team in the game have got hold of him. Where were they when they released CGR or falcon… totally broken crazy mega champs I’m forced to play again and again as they are game breaking. Maybe that team were on holiday that month.
I am indeed only reading and not playing, so again I’ll admit I very easily could have got it wrong on how “effective” he is, but it doesn’t change the fact he has no stand out ability. He just does a bunch of stuff others in the game do, not a reason to pick him up. He does lots of things, all of them useful and good. Therefore a buff, not questioned.
Has he not got a stand out ability that makes him a character I will ever put in my team, I don’t see why I would.
He might still be great fun to play, and I hope he is, I quite like Hawkeye. Any power control match currently I’ll pick him up and use him when I can as I think he’s a cool character. I was hoping the buff would match that by giving him 1 really great ability/ utility or USP to pick him. On that point is where I think they “missed the mark” if you pardon the pun.
It’s a wider issue I see with the buff champs, with a huge roster of champs now , many are becoming less useful. It means you only end up ever playing with champs that have 1 brilliant killer ability as they are the best option for a niche fight. The era of the generalist is very much being removed in MCOC.
Great champs are released but no one really cares if they dont do something different.
Odin for instance, great , fun amazing champ. The consensus in my line chat is not really ever gonna use him, despite a great buff. I feel Hawkeye is wandering down the same path.

I really really hope I’m wrong and that on playing the buff is spectacular, but from me sitting down with a calculator for 5 mins, he seems certainly improved but a bit average. So a kinda pointless buff in the grand scheme of things. Might as well have kabam save their time and go design some other exciting content elsewhere.

Maybe that’s okay if Hawkeyes place is to be an also ran. But it really irritates me that low recognition uninspiring comic characters (you know, the kinda character the average person on the street never heard of like Diablo or mole man) get amazing game changing buffs that slap you in the face with awesomeness, but classic famous characters don’t.
I want to get excited to pop a Hawkeye or original cap America from a crystal. It’s a marvel game, they pay a massive amount of money for the licence , why don’t they make use of it in a way to make comic book fans even more excited?
I liked comics before they were cool, I’m not cool, but now they are…. Why can’t the classic avengers become cool too?!

This post is me right now. I made a buff theory post about Hawkeye having trick arrow prefights a few days before the spotlight was released in another thread and was surprised by the number of disagrees. I was hoping they would do something special with Clint like debuff prefights - not every fight needs bleed, for example, and why need a synergy to do something you could put in his kit/quiver like poison? Why not make him more unique among skill in that he could also do a third debuff like shock which very few skill champs can do right now (hello BWDO)? Or why not give him an incinerate (hellos sp2 incendiary)? The slow is nice and is suitable for his class given the evade capabilites of science champs, and I like how they implemented it (on heavy), but the debuff aspect could've been more imaginative. The power drain is different but yes we have to wait and see if different is better.

This game has really done all the original Avengers dirty, and even with opportunities to fix that they dont seem to make them more than average, unless it's a doppelganger like iHulk or CAIW.

I still remember the Infinity War Endgame event a few summers ago - the buff OG Cap and Hulk got in that month would be something useful to just put in their base kit - that event proved they could be made relevant with not much effort.

BigPoppaCBONE

BitterSteel said:

Colonaut123 said:

BitterSteel said:

Colonaut123 said:

BitterSteel said:

Colonaut123 said:

Fenico said:

Im impressed how people can write whole books about champs they didnt see even 1 second of gameplay yet

I did the same thing with Guillotine, and I was right. It just requires reading the ability list and a calculator. Not really rocket science.

Being right 100% of the time looks a lot better than 1/1

I was also right with The Hood, and some people made the same remark it should be tested out first.

The difference here is that Hood had something flat out removed. The fate seal was gone.

Here, we need to wait and see whether the power control is as good, better or worse. Sometimes things are black and white, sometimes they aren’t.

But that is not accurate. Pre-buff Hawkeye has a consistent, reliable power drain of 120% of a bar of Power. That has been nerfed to 75% of a bar of Power, and replaced by a Suppression Debuff that reduces Combat Power Rate by 50%, which is not as good as a plain power drain.

That seems awfully like an opinion to me.

Before the buff
Hawkeye’s basic attacks gave the opponent 100% power
The power drained 120% of a bar of power

After the buff
Hawkeye’s basic attacks give the opponent 50% power
The power drains 75% of a bar of power

After a few specials when the debuff duration is increased enough to keep 100% uptime on the suppression, which an aggressive player will likely be able to do (subject to testing)

It seems like Hawkeye’s control about how much power the opponent gains has increased from 100% to 50% (2 times as good), but the power drained has been reduced from 120% to 75%, which is only 1.6 times worse. Seems like an even trade.

If he’s preventing the opponent from getting bars of power 2 times as well as before, and draining them 1.6 times worse than before. I’d say the numbers point towards him being better than before.

What I am going to say is that maybe we should wait, test and see if we can control the power as well as we can now.

Yes, a suppression debuff can be removed. But how often were you using Hawkeye (a champion who’s damage overwhelmingly comes from a bleed debuff) for tenacity match ups with power? That seems like an awfully niche, and unpleasant match up for a champion like Hawkeye. And besides, focus on shrug off as much as you’d like as a monumental con of suppression, but did you know that it ignores immunity to power control? So you can use it against annihulus, or the immunity node. That seems like a pretty niche pro to balance out your pretty niche con.

Your analysis is thorough, well thought out and based on reason. I can’t fault you for that, and it really was an interesting read. (I know the internet can often make things seem insincere but I do mean that). I just strongly disagree with your ability to make a conclusion as strong as this is nerfed until we have tested out to see how well it works in practice.

I wish that type of "situationally technically could be considered an even trade or a lil better if you get lucky and squint but only sometimes" was kept out of buffs. They're almost always better off and more successful with these when they don't get rid of good + simplicity and replace it with goodish + complexity with little net gain of the type anyone cares about.

rockykoston

BitterSteel said:

Colonaut123 said:

BitterSteel said:

Colonaut123 said:

BitterSteel said:

Colonaut123 said:

Fenico said:

Im impressed how people can write whole books about champs they didnt see even 1 second of gameplay yet

I did the same thing with Guillotine, and I was right. It just requires reading the ability list and a calculator. Not really rocket science.

Being right 100% of the time looks a lot better than 1/1

I was also right with The Hood, and some people made the same remark it should be tested out first.

The difference here is that Hood had something flat out removed. The fate seal was gone.

Here, we need to wait and see whether the power control is as good, better or worse. Sometimes things are black and white, sometimes they aren’t.

But that is not accurate. Pre-buff Hawkeye has a consistent, reliable power drain of 120% of a bar of Power. That has been nerfed to 75% of a bar of Power, and replaced by a Suppression Debuff that reduces Combat Power Rate by 50%, which is not as good as a plain power drain.

That seems awfully like an opinion to me.

Before the buff
Hawkeye’s basic attacks gave the opponent 100% power
The power drained 120% of a bar of power

After the buff
Hawkeye’s basic attacks give the opponent 50% power
The power drains 75% of a bar of power

After a few specials when the debuff duration is increased enough to keep 100% uptime on the suppression, which an aggressive player will likely be able to do (subject to testing

I have to disagree here strongly.

A lot of champs have nodes like debuff immune which makes Hawkeye useless for power control there now.

The way contest is progressing, we need the buffs so they counter the new content or atleast keep up with what's out there.

If HE is going to be used generically, then that's really not a buff now, is it?

GrassKnuckles

How was Hood a nerf? If you are referring to the first buff back in March then I can see why you would say that but if you are talking about the 2nd one in August then I would have to disagree strongly. Hood has if anything twice as much damage with great utility just like originally. I use him quite often in fact as a 6* R1 and I’m satisfied. Very balanced champion.

rockykoston

GrassKnuckles said:

How was Hood a nerf? If you are referring to the first buff back in March then I can see why you would say that but if you are talking about the 2nd one in August then I would have to disagree strongly. Hood has if anything twice as much damage with great utility just like originally. I use him quite often in fact as a 6* R1 and I’m satisfied. Very balanced champion.

He was talking about the first "buff" when they changed his base kit

rockykoston

Lucifire said:

**** post. The buff isn't even out yet, but here you are already passing a judgement. Besides, you gotta lose something to gain something. His power control was his only good ability, but now he has better utility and damage too, possibly. I'm willing let go of the power control as a whole for the new set of abilities he is getting. Besides, it's not like y'all ever used him, so why cry about it now?

What??

OP is clearly trying to make a point that the gain, if any, isn't significant enough over his original abilities.

What better utility are you talking about?

And yes damage is still up for question, so no one can say whether it's better or not.

Aldac

Lucifire said:

Besides, you gotta lose something to gain something.

I think the above quote sums up why we keep having these controversies about buffs. It certainly seems to be a factor in the design philosophy.

I haven’t read this whole thread properly especially the various analyses, but I will. I’m optimistic about the buff and have taken mine to R2 as I like the character, and I’m really hoping the power control will remain as powerful in practice.

Having betas for the buffs is probably impractical considering the lack of time and (it seems) manpower but surely a small period of consultation with the CCP or the community at large would help to mitigate these controversies.

Mysterio

My personal issue with the buff based on the numbers (as I haven't seen him in game so I can only make this assumption) is that the 120% -> 75% wasn't needed. Being able to drain that 120% with his Sp1 was never really overpowered IMO. Maybe he is gonna be such a beast now that if it was 120% he would be so broken as a champion, but I doubt he is gonna be Aegon or Fury level of good.

Again this is all from numbers, need to test the man out myself first.

Chikel

GrassKnuckles said:

How was Hood a nerf? If you are referring to the first buff back in March then I can see why you would say that but if you are talking about the 2nd one in August then I would have to disagree strongly. Hood has if anything twice as much damage with great utility just like originally. I use him quite often in fact as a 6* R1 and I’m satisfied. Very balanced champion.

To avoid turning this into a Hood buff thread I'll just tell you to search up on the numerous threads made after his buff. Everything that has to be said you were said there.