Why is Apoc considered a great champ? (Excluding synergy)

I just don’t get it.

All his debuffs are more or less useless debuffs.

He cant power control.

He needs ramping up.

Can hardly counter evades.

Comments

DrZola

How are you using (or misusing) your Apoc?

It’s tough to know what’s not working for you without more info. I’d bet there are plenty including myself who are happy to offer suggestions, but the list you’ve made isn’t that useful.

What’s the issue you’re having?

Dr. Zola

SpideyFunko

- “hardly counter evades” that’s a lie, it’s persists throughout the whole quest
- the damage is solid with the debuffs on
- That ability of his to turn any mutant into a horseman, which makes them better
- Bleed and Incinerate immunity (plus disorient)
- The concussion debuff is pretty decent, especially when retriggered
- generally tanky
- and the synergies you asked to exclude by I’m including anyway are also very very good

ItsDamien

I just don’t get it.

All his debuffs are more or less useless debuffs.

He cant power control.

He needs ramping up.

Can hardly counter evades.

His Concussion is really good. You have to use his SP3 after applying his debuffs.

His evade counter ramps up to 100. Meaning he fully counters evade.

I think you just don’t know how to use Apoc so you think he’s bad.

unknown

This content has been removed.

Khellendros138

His ability to counter shrug off is very useful

That is one of my go to reasons I go to him at this point. The purify reduction is amazing. His damage comes mainly from special attacks. Once he has his 4 prowess charges he hits pretty darn hard. Also each hit of his specials do extra burst damage based on the number of debuffs on your opponents, so the goal is to keep all your debuffs up the whole fight, then parry heavy to have that bleed on them, then interrupt your heavy with a special. Throw stryfe on your team and apoc does some stupid damage lol.

Also you can't simply disregard his synergies. It's an amazing benefit.

unknown

This content has been removed.

DrZola

I will add: if ramp-up is your issue, throw Cable on the team and ramp-up is gone (plus Cable becomes like the Archangel of parry-heavy degen damage).

Give it a shot.

Dr. Zola

Justin2524

Was looking for an inspiring post still haven’t seen one. Just as I had thought.

Justin2524

He’s just not a home run champ.. but people are making him out to be… that’s what I’m saying

IvarTheBoneless

Was looking for an inspiring post still haven’t seen one. Just as I had thought.

People have refuted 3 of your 4 points. I don't think apoc is the problem here.

He’s just not a home run champ.. but people are making him out to be… that’s what I’m saying

Have you even ranked your apoc? I have seen him used in act 7 all the time.

ThatGuyYouSaw235

Apoc is a good champion man.

But his way of evade countering is overhyped.

Justin2524

Was looking for an inspiring post still haven’t seen one. Just as I had thought.
People have refuted 3 of your 4 points. I don't think apoc is the problem here.
He’s just not a home run champ.. but people are making him out to be… that’s what I’m saying
Have you even ranked your apoc? I have seen him used in act 7 all the time.

What do you say is his best attibutres then not counting synergy.

Justin2524

How are you using (or misusing) your Apoc?

It’s tough to know what’s not working for you without more info. I’d bet there are plenty including myself who are happy to offer suggestions, but the list you’ve made isn’t that useful.

What’s the issue you’re having?

Dr. Zola

Like what is he really best at?

He doesn’t have huge damage like cgr.

He doesn’t have power control like Doom.

He doesn’t shut down robot like Magneto.

He doesn’t nullify.

What is he Great at exactly?

unknown

This content has been removed.

thanks4playing

I made a recent post that might be helpful for you:
https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/288908/aspects-of-apocs-kit-and-how-to-use#latest

He's been amazing for me. Useful in almost every game mode and the #1 option for a lot of tricky fights.

The_Chump

He is great for so much content. Ive explored all of Act 7 so far and have used Apoc in most, if not all quests.

Probably his best attribute: Great against champs and nodes that cause opponents to shrug debuffs. No more shrugging stun.

Great for quest w evade nodes, like the one where opponent auto evades if attacked w same move. You purposely attack w 2 light attacks, knowing he'll evade the second so you're ready. Once you get to 10 evades, you're immune to evade (not the greatest counter for single evade champs though)

Specials hit stupid hard, which only take an sp1 and 2 if hes ramped or you have Cable on your team. (He gets plus 2 charges against mutants so if you fight a mutant first he'll have 2 charges already, plus a 3rd once you win the fight).

Great for nodes where you need to hit your opponent w debuffs. Also hits for 2 bleeds on heavies

Quickly becomes mmune to bleed, incinerate, and disorient.

Heavies retrigger his debuffs.

Lovejoy72

My biggest problem with him is that he hits hard enough at 4 persistent charges that I prefer to keep him that way, vs making a horseman.

Honestly, tho, ignoring debuff shrug, the ability to stun thru block, access to three different DOT effects, easy refresh on them, etc.

And that’s not even mentioning his awesome Final Fight style flying kick on that SP2.

Lemon_Man44

Gonna disprove all your points in one comment.

1.You his debuffs are "more or less useless". All of them have a use
Weakness: reduce enemy attack by up to 25% I believe, don't quote me on that. Very helpful against dealing with block damage.
Poison: no need to explain this, reduces healing and does damages over time which are both great.
Degen: damage over time that no champion is immune to.
Concussion: ability accuracy reduction is always fun.

2. Can't power control. Yea neither can 90% of characters in this game, even the 'god tier ones'. Hercules can't, Corvus can't, Fury can't, Aegon can't. You don't need power control to make a champion good.

3. Arguably one of the quickest ramp ups for a ramp up champ. Either bring in the synergy champ, or win 3 fights (1 when against a mutant).

4. Yea sure it isn't reliable evade counter for the first like 6 or 7 evades in a quest. But after that you're chilling

EDIT: Paragraph spacing to make it easier to understand

Moosetiptronic

What's this doesn't have huge damage, rubbish?

My r3 apoc can do ws, quickly, in average 64 hits with my normal mutant quest team (apoc, white mags, profx, cable) and suicides. With good rng on the sp2, it's 60. And well under a minute fight time; sp1, sp2, couple of heavies to refresh between and final sp2 for overkill, sp1 if his health is under 22%

My r3 CGR can do it faster, but not by much. Apoc's SP2 slaps hard with cable for charges and normal mutant special boost team.

Justin2524

What's this doesn't have huge damage, rubbish?

My r3 apoc can do ws, quickly, in average 64 hits with my normal mutant quest team (apoc, white mags, profx, cable) and suicides. With good rng on the sp2, it's 60. And well under a minute fight time; sp1, sp2, couple of heavies to refresh between and final sp2 for overkill, sp1 if his health is under 22%

My r3 CGR can do it faster, but not by much. Apoc's SP2 slaps hard with cable for charges and normal mutant special boost team.

Yeah but you gotta bring a whole bunch of mutants.. c’mon now.. that ain’t realistic.

Justin2524

Gonna disprove all your points in one comment.

1.You his debuffs are "more or less useless". All of them have a use
Weakness: reduce enemy attack by up to 25% I believe, don't quote me on that. Very helpful against dealing with block damage.
Poison: no need to explain this, reduces healing and does damages over time which are both great.
Degen: damage over time that no champion is immune to.
Concussion: ability accuracy reduction is always fun.

2. Can't power control. Yea neither can 90% of characters in this game, even the 'god tier ones'. Hercules can't, Corvus can't, Fury can't, Aegon can't. You don't need power control to make a champion good.

3. Arguably one of the quickest ramp ups for a ramp up champ. Either bring in the synergy champ, or win 3 fights (1 when against a mutant).

4. Yea sure it isn't reliable evade counter for the first like 6 or 7 evades in a quest. But after that you're chilling

EDIT: Paragraph spacing to make it easier to understand

Lots of debuffs yes but they are all ticking really small.. like non consequential.

Justin2524

My biggest problem with him is that he hits hard enough at 4 persistent charges that I prefer to keep him that way, vs making a horseman.

Honestly, tho, ignoring debuff shrug, the ability to stun thru block, access to three different DOT effects, easy refresh on them, etc.

And that’s not even mentioning his awesome Final Fight style flying kick on that SP2.

Exactly re horseman hence I said in the title excluding synergy.

altavista

Like what is he really best at?

He doesn’t have huge damage like cgr.

He doesn’t have power control like Doom.

He doesn’t shut down robot like Magneto.

He doesn’t nullify.

What is he Great at exactly?

You’re conflating two different arguments - Champion is best in Class, and champion is one of the best overall.

Nullify and power control are typically exclusive to Mystic/Tech. Can’t use the lack of that ability as an argument against a champion that isn’t in those classes. If you’re going against a buff heavy matchup, you’re not typically going to bring a non-mystic.

But specifically to your points: He does do huge special damage like CGR. Definitely not as huge, but at 4 Prowess his SP2 takes off huge chunks of health.

He doesn’t have nullify, but with Concussion and an SP3, those buffs aren’t appearing anyways. And this ability accuracy reduction isn’t limited to metal.

He doesn’t have power control, but he can minimize hits and let the DoT debuffs + occasional specials do the job. Might mean a longish fight, but he can anyone else have 100% uptime on degen/poison debuff?

He has Best in Class ability to prevent debuff shrug off (unlike OR, its not dependent on keeping spores on). He can get Permanent prowesses, which help on Nodes that require prowesses. No one else has an immunity to Disorient. He’s handled many Mix-master/evade paths for me easily.

A sign of a great champion is one who doesn’t specifically have the abilities that a path calls for, but is able to do it anyway. And Apocalypse can handle very well paths that call for Damage, Power control, Nullify.

No suicides, and with Cable only occasionally as the only mutant teammate, he conquers many things for me based only on his kit.

SaltE_Wenis69

I just don’t get it.

All his debuffs are more or less useless debuffs.

He cant power control.

He needs ramping up.

Can hardly counter evades.

dang! Aegon must be trash then!
He needs to ramp up, he can't power control, and his debuffs are "useless"!

SirGamesBond

I just don’t get it.

All his debuffs are more or less useless debuffs.

He cant power control.

He needs ramping up.

Can hardly counter evades.

Absolutely! Apocalypse is a DUD!!!!!
*Chuckles*

Reference for the new folks.
https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/220918/apocalypse-is-a-dud

Typhoon

If you’re just going to dismiss all the positives about Apoc people are telling you, then next time move on and don’t bother making a post. He’s one of the best mutants in the game if you know how to use him

SaltE_Wenis69

I just don’t get it.

All his debuffs are more or less useless debuffs.

He cant power control.

He needs ramping up.

Can hardly counter evades.
Absolutely! Apocalypse is a DUD!!!!!
*Chuckles*
Reference for the new folks.
https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/220918/apocalypse-is-a-dud

I miss KD even though I just came back to mcoc after like a few months lol

ZAHIDMALIK1588

How are you using (or misusing) your Apoc?

It’s tough to know what’s not working for you without more info. I’d bet there are plenty including myself who are happy to offer suggestions, but the list you’ve made isn’t that useful.

What’s the issue you’re having?

Dr. Zola
Like what is he really best at?

He doesn’t have huge damage like cgr.

He doesn’t have power control like Doom.

He doesn’t shut down robot like Magneto.

He doesn’t nullify.

What is he Great at exactly?

I am with you on this, plus I would add a few more you forgot to mention
He doesn't have a flame on prefight ability like HT
He doesn't degen mutants like ultron
He doesn't have a sword like ronin
He doesn't shoot arrows like hawkeye
He doesn't have claws like volverine or weapon x
He doesn't go unblockable after sp like Dman
and most importantly, he doesn't fly like Dman
You made your point

LibertyPrimeV1

DrZola

How are you using (or misusing) your Apoc?

It’s tough to know what’s not working for you without more info. I’d bet there are plenty including myself who are happy to offer suggestions, but the list you’ve made isn’t that useful.

What’s the issue you’re having?

Dr. Zola
Like what is he really best at?

He doesn’t have huge damage like cgr.

He doesn’t have power control like Doom.

He doesn’t shut down robot like Magneto.

He doesn’t nullify.

What is he Great at exactly?
He does have good dmg. Foes cant shrug his debuffs. Hes tanky. His debuffs are awesome so dunno what ur talking about there. And hes got immunities. His evade counter isnt the best ofc but it's solid. Stun on block is very helpful for easy openings. I get the feeling you really dont have a ranked apoc. And you cant exclude his synergies as they are great both for him and others. Cable apoc is an insane duo. And ofc the horseman ability is unique and top notch. How can you not like big daddy apoc

This is a pretty good response to the questions by @TheManMythLegend , so I will add that it seems like OP’s expectations are unrealistic.

One could argue that Doom can’t phase damage like Kitty or Ghost, or that Magneto struggles against non-metal champs (as well as what we can assume will be increasingly more common champs like Nimrod that counter Mags)….therefore making both Doom and Mags “not that good.”

When you consider that many of his main synergy partners are also very good champs in their own rights (AA, Cable, Prof X, etc.) it’s hard to see how Apoc doesn’t rank at top of class and near the top of all champs.

I’d also ask OP to share what rarity and level of Apoc he/she is using and how/where they are using Apoc. Might be easier to diagnose what OP is doing wrong than argue about abstracts.

Dr. Zola