OP: Thank you for the feedback on scoring. While I do think that this one is a fair outcome become of the large difference in time, we will be giving our team feedback on scoring as a whole, and I will include this.
I very much disagree with this. In the photo above the OP most definitely should have won. In the opponent's score, the time counts for a little over 20% of his total points... That is an insane contribution from the timer. The OP clearly has the better matchup and the results show that he was the better player in this round, with much less health lost, but because Thing is a tankier champion to fight against and inherently takes longer to fight he loses. How does that make any sense at all?
I know I have expressed this opinion many times now but I don't understand how the data that has been acquired by now doesn't show that the time scoring only incentivizes poor matchups and fast gameplay. It is extremely unhealthy for the gamemode in the long term. Time means nothing in this game and often times the best matchups for fights take longer than the brute force method. Unfortunately that doesn't translate well in the current system and we either use brute force method or lose.
It is the most frustrating thing to lose matches and the final scoreboard clearly shows that you are the better player.
They incentivize nukes everywhere lately. I hated the AW tie breaker being time as well. Then they wonder why most of the community doesn't care or even understand how to judge utility champs most of the time and only get excited for whoever the next nuke is.
I know this is separate, but this is why I don’t like spending as much time on the game. Kabam doesn’t value the players time. All I want to do is nuke through content, AQ, AW, whatever then log off. Whether I take a few months to explore Act 6 or 1 week, it doesn’t matter - because I could end up with **** rewards either way, so evidently Kabam doesn’t value players time spent in game.
Anyway, I’m not sure how utility should be judged in Battlegrounds.
I like the fact that the timer plays a role in scoring, it discourages you using someone like KG and stalling to finish at 100% keeping the game mode fast paced.
OP: Thank you for the feedback on scoring. While I do think that this one is a fair outcome become of the large difference in time, we will be giving our team feedback on scoring as a whole, and I will include this.
I very much disagree with this. In the photo above the OP most definitely should have won. In the opponent's score, the time counts for a little over 20% of his total points... That is an insane contribution from the timer. The OP clearly has the better matchup and the results show that he was the better player in this round, with much less health lost, but because Thing is a tankier champion to fight against and inherently takes longer to fight he loses. How does that make any sense at all?
I know I have expressed this opinion many times now but I don't understand how the data that has been acquired by now doesn't show that the time scoring only incentivizes poor matchups and fast gameplay. It is extremely unhealthy for the gamemode in the long term. Time means nothing in this game and often times the best matchups for fights take longer than the brute force method. Unfortunately that doesn't translate well in the current system and we either use brute force method or lose.
It is the most frustrating thing to lose matches and the final scoreboard clearly shows that you are the better player.
They incentivize nukes everywhere lately. I hated the AW tie breaker being time as well. Then they wonder why most of the community doesn't care or even understand how to judge utility champs most of the time and only get excited for whoever the next nuke is.
Yeah, I really don't like it. I'll take a Nimrod, or Omega Sentinel any day over Hercules or even Kitty. Not saying those champs are bad, and I can appreciate some good nuking here and there (especially in AQ). But for gamemodes like AW and BGs I was really hoping for a higher emphasis on utility.
You can nuke things fast with Nimrod too. Got a 26 sec fight with him. Obviously he does that just in certain mathchups. Also got a 23 sec nuke with Ghost. Anyway, I think scoring is pretty good right now. It actually isn't bad running suicides. Of course, the masochism node helps on defense, shrugging the debuffs at the start, healing occasionaly to mitigate recoil. Most other nodes would make the defenders much easier to kill when running suicides. What kabam has to do is rotate the nodes. And also consider adding something for attackers too, from time to time. Like a boost for a certain class, certain tag, champs with armor, something to help with the node on defense. The possibilities to mix and match all these variables are endless. Have to keep the mode fresh and everyone on their toes
I guess I completely disagree with the fact that suicides should be viable in this mode. The fact that running suicides actually works tells me that the scoring is broken.
Definitely not a fan of this either. Seemed those of us that choose to not use them would actually have an advantage for once but yet again it's just another DPS above all mode
Weren't you telling everyone who complained about the heal block in cav EQ to just turn off suicides ? Why don't you just turn them on if you think it's an advantage
While time can be a component in scoring, I feel like time plays too big of a factor in the current model. The 2 minutes to complete the fight seems sufficient enough to make me play more aggressively and go for intercepts in order to complete within the time limit when I am not using a high damage output champion.
I want my utility champs to feel like they have value and not become unusable because they have a slower play style or a long ramp up to the big damage if they need an sp3 then sp2 rotation.
Otherwise this game mode will just become who can boost the biggest and end fights as quickly as possible removing the fun of trying to find the best counter.
There is also the consideration of having to deal with passive AI. Losing a fight where you may have performed better because the AI wasn’t throwing specials fast enough.
The above fight I finished with 30 percent more health and it took me 36 seconds longer and so I lost. That doom I was facing was running max md giving him lots of power that I spent the majority of that extra time trying to bait out specials.
I agree max md is part of the strategy but I felt like taking down doom within the time limit and 30 percent more health should be a victory. With the current time scoring you are at the mercy of AI throwing their specials in order to win fast enough
OP: Thank you for the feedback on scoring. While I do think that this one is a fair outcome become of the large difference in time, we will be giving our team feedback on scoring as a whole, and I will include this.
I very much disagree with this. In the photo above the OP most definitely should have won. In the opponent's score, the time counts for a little over 20% of his total points... That is an insane contribution from the timer. The OP clearly has the better matchup and the results show that he was the better player in this round, with much less health lost, but because Thing is a tankier champion to fight against and inherently takes longer to fight he loses. How does that make any sense at all?
I know I have expressed this opinion many times now but I don't understand how the data that has been acquired by now doesn't show that the time scoring only incentivizes poor matchups and fast gameplay. It is extremely unhealthy for the gamemode in the long term. Time means nothing in this game and often times the best matchups for fights take longer than the brute force method. Unfortunately that doesn't translate well in the current system and we either use brute force method or lose.
It is the most frustrating thing to lose matches and the final scoreboard clearly shows that you are the better player.
They incentivize nukes everywhere lately. I hated the AW tie breaker being time as well. Then they wonder why most of the community doesn't care or even understand how to judge utility champs most of the time and only get excited for whoever the next nuke is.
Yeah, I really don't like it. I'll take a Nimrod, or Omega Sentinel any day over Hercules or even Kitty. Not saying those champs are bad, and I can appreciate some good nuking here and there (especially in AQ). But for gamemodes like AW and BGs I was really hoping for a higher emphasis on utility.
You can nuke things fast with Nimrod too. Got a 26 sec fight with him. Obviously he does that just in certain mathchups. Also got a 23 sec nuke with Ghost. Anyway, I think scoring is pretty good right now. It actually isn't bad running suicides. Of course, the masochism node helps on defense, shrugging the debuffs at the start, healing occasionaly to mitigate recoil. Most other nodes would make the defenders much easier to kill when running suicides. What kabam has to do is rotate the nodes. And also consider adding something for attackers too, from time to time. Like a boost for a certain class, certain tag, champs with armor, something to help with the node on defense. The possibilities to mix and match all these variables are endless. Have to keep the mode fresh and everyone on their toes
I guess I completely disagree with the fact that suicides should be viable in this mode. The fact that running suicides actually works tells me that the scoring is broken.
Definitely not a fan of this either. Seemed those of us that choose to not use them would actually have an advantage for once but yet again it's just another DPS above all mode
I think one thing I disagree with here is that non-suicides users *do* have an advantage over suicides users. Suicides in this mode isn't all up-side and no down, you lose health through recoil, double edge and liquid courage all costing you points and your defender loses health faster through those same mechanics. Right now, people with suicides are gambling that doing the fight with 60% more attack outweighs the downsides of losing points through attacker health and your defender having less overall health due to recoil and poison/bleed.
I think the thing that is making suicides such a viable tactic right now is masochism. It gets rid of the bleed *and* poison, meaning your defender doesn't lose that massive chunk of health due to willpower not scaling with base health but suicides debuffs do. Once the node is changed, you can bet your bottom dollar that suicides will show up less and less.
At the moment, the gamble is that recoil alone won't make the fight too easy, the mode isn't quite long enough for recoil to be a big enough detriment, but once the bleed and poison come back with a new node, that is going to start people losing matches and bye bye suicides.
I think because this is the only view we have of battlegrounds and suicides apparently dominate it, we are (kinda rightly) worried that suicides shouldn't dominate. But that's only because the node that's been chosen is pretty pro-suicides. Imagine if the node that had been chosen was heal block, or encroaching stun, or special delivery. It would be a pretty different story.
Not to mention, I'm sure the points will be tweaked to try different things. As the mode is flexible enough to alter the system with little fuss.
For sure. The fact it's so easy to shake things up is the only reason I'm not overly concerned with much whether it be the scoring or my concerns with suicides.
Just stating I was a bit bummed that the beta at least has turned into another nukefest. I'm still playing a bunch, still having fun, and still super excited for full release.
OP: Thank you for the feedback on scoring. While I do think that this one is a fair outcome become of the large difference in time, we will be giving our team feedback on scoring as a whole, and I will include this.
I very much disagree with this. In the photo above the OP most definitely should have won. In the opponent's score, the time counts for a little over 20% of his total points... That is an insane contribution from the timer. The OP clearly has the better matchup and the results show that he was the better player in this round, with much less health lost, but because Thing is a tankier champion to fight against and inherently takes longer to fight he loses. How does that make any sense at all?
I know I have expressed this opinion many times now but I don't understand how the data that has been acquired by now doesn't show that the time scoring only incentivizes poor matchups and fast gameplay. It is extremely unhealthy for the gamemode in the long term. Time means nothing in this game and often times the best matchups for fights take longer than the brute force method. Unfortunately that doesn't translate well in the current system and we either use brute force method or lose.
It is the most frustrating thing to lose matches and the final scoreboard clearly shows that you are the better player.
They incentivize nukes everywhere lately. I hated the AW tie breaker being time as well. Then they wonder why most of the community doesn't care or even understand how to judge utility champs most of the time and only get excited for whoever the next nuke is.
Yeah, I really don't like it. I'll take a Nimrod, or Omega Sentinel any day over Hercules or even Kitty. Not saying those champs are bad, and I can appreciate some good nuking here and there (especially in AQ). But for gamemodes like AW and BGs I was really hoping for a higher emphasis on utility.
You can nuke things fast with Nimrod too. Got a 26 sec fight with him. Obviously he does that just in certain mathchups. Also got a 23 sec nuke with Ghost. Anyway, I think scoring is pretty good right now. It actually isn't bad running suicides. Of course, the masochism node helps on defense, shrugging the debuffs at the start, healing occasionaly to mitigate recoil. Most other nodes would make the defenders much easier to kill when running suicides. What kabam has to do is rotate the nodes. And also consider adding something for attackers too, from time to time. Like a boost for a certain class, certain tag, champs with armor, something to help with the node on defense. The possibilities to mix and match all these variables are endless. Have to keep the mode fresh and everyone on their toes
I guess I completely disagree with the fact that suicides should be viable in this mode. The fact that running suicides actually works tells me that the scoring is broken.
Definitely not a fan of this either. Seemed those of us that choose to not use them would actually have an advantage for once but yet again it's just another DPS above all mode
Weren't you telling everyone who complained about the heal block in cav EQ to just turn off suicides ? Why don't you just turn them on if you think it's an advantage
If they're enough of an advantage that's exactly what I'd do. 🤷🏻♂️
Still a bit different between one change over a month for a quest and multiple changes daily bc of things like AW/AQ where they wouldn't be being used
The difference there is I didn't jump on the forum and throw a fit and tell Kabam they needed to change this. I just said I wasn't a fan of it and have gone on with my business
I think it's incredibly unfair to even truly judge the scoring system until we encounter the game mode with other nodes. Masochism is one of the nodes that is very beneficial to defenders running the Recoil, Liquid Courage, and Double Edge Masterys. Defenders are far tankier than they otherwise would be using those Masterys than if the node was different. I tried it with both them both on and off and noticed that many solid but not fantastic damage output characters simply were unable to take down a lot of defenders fast enough. Right now, if you use those Masterys, your ability to increase the speed at which you can knock out defenders is more valuable than the increase in speed in which your defenders get knocked out. With a different node, this won't be the case. When you can run these Mastery's your ability to actually get points from fight duration will be reduced without any change to the scoring system. The points you will be able to get from health reaming will stay unchanged though so it will technically be more valuable. I've played over 50 rounds so I think I have a decent feel for the mode. Before significant changes to scoring are made, we should see the Global Node changed at least once or twice.
But there is a balance point that I think is important to mention. There are a number of champs with persistent healing over time: Kingpin, Diablo (with Liquid Courage), Angela, etc. It is critical that the point distribution between Health Remaining and Fight Duration pays very close attention to how these characters work. I don't want a game mode where it is beneficial to draw out the fight all the way to 2 minutes just to heal up if you happened to lose health early in the fight. I don't want a Meta that over values taking the full duration into account. Character's who are less sustainable but make up for that with their damage output should absolutely be rewarded for it. My fastest kill in this mode so far was my 6* Rank 3 Human Torch over a 5* Rank 5 Magik. It was 19 seconds. My opponent timed out in their matchup. I had to stare at the post fight screen for over 90 seconds just waiting for him to finish their fight. This isn't ideal, especially with how barren that screen is for information or things to look at during that time. If you appropriately reward fast kills, the game mode goes faster and everyone gets to play more which is a good thing.
As long as we’re all playing by the same rules, I’m good. But that 29 second fight looks suspect. I’ve battled some top players in the game and no one has finished a fight that quick.
Comments
Anyway, I’m not sure how utility should be judged in Battlegrounds.
I want my utility champs to feel like they have value and not become unusable because they have a slower play style or a long ramp up to the big damage if they need an sp3 then sp2 rotation.
Otherwise this game mode will just become who can boost the biggest and end fights as quickly as possible removing the fun of trying to find the best counter.
There is also the consideration of having to deal with passive AI. Losing a fight where you may have performed better because the AI wasn’t throwing specials fast enough.
The above fight I finished with 30 percent more health and it took me 36 seconds longer and so I lost. That doom I was facing was running max md giving him lots of power that I spent the majority of that extra time trying to bait out specials.
I agree max md is part of the strategy but I felt like taking down doom within the time limit and 30 percent more health should be a victory. With the current time scoring you are at the mercy of AI throwing their specials in order to win fast enough
Seems a bit sus. My personal fastest kill with a 6* r3 aa was 28 seconds against a 5* void.
Just stating I was a bit bummed that the beta at least has turned into another nukefest. I'm still playing a bunch, still having fun, and still super excited for full release.
Still a bit different between one change over a month for a quest and multiple changes daily bc of things like AW/AQ where they wouldn't be being used
I think it's incredibly unfair to even truly judge the scoring system until we encounter the game mode with other nodes. Masochism is one of the nodes that is very beneficial to defenders running the Recoil, Liquid Courage, and Double Edge Masterys. Defenders are far tankier than they otherwise would be using those Masterys than if the node was different. I tried it with both them both on and off and noticed that many solid but not fantastic damage output characters simply were unable to take down a lot of defenders fast enough. Right now, if you use those Masterys, your ability to increase the speed at which you can knock out defenders is more valuable than the increase in speed in which your defenders get knocked out. With a different node, this won't be the case. When you can run these Mastery's your ability to actually get points from fight duration will be reduced without any change to the scoring system. The points you will be able to get from health reaming will stay unchanged though so it will technically be more valuable. I've played over 50 rounds so I think I have a decent feel for the mode. Before significant changes to scoring are made, we should see the Global Node changed at least once or twice.
But there is a balance point that I think is important to mention. There are a number of champs with persistent healing over time: Kingpin, Diablo (with Liquid Courage), Angela, etc. It is critical that the point distribution between Health Remaining and Fight Duration pays very close attention to how these characters work. I don't want a game mode where it is beneficial to draw out the fight all the way to 2 minutes just to heal up if you happened to lose health early in the fight. I don't want a Meta that over values taking the full duration into account. Character's who are less sustainable but make up for that with their damage output should absolutely be rewarded for it. My fastest kill in this mode so far was my 6* Rank 3 Human Torch over a 5* Rank 5 Magik. It was 19 seconds. My opponent timed out in their matchup. I had to stare at the post fight screen for over 90 seconds just waiting for him to finish their fight. This isn't ideal, especially with how barren that screen is for information or things to look at during that time. If you appropriately reward fast kills, the game mode goes faster and everyone gets to play more which is a good thing.