Tactical problem in battlegrounds

qartweli

I am top50 right now and i allow myself to share an opinion after 100 matches

There are 3 rounds

One guy places def twice as first
One guy does it only once

The guyy who places it first at round 1 and 3 has huge tactical disadvantage in my opinion for absolutely no reason

It is an odd number and round 3 should be maybe first placed and show after what is placed from both because i cant count how many times i did provoce a situation where people just have no chance in round 3 and i dont feel it is fair..some just give up cause it has no value to waste time.


Round 1 guy x places first
Round 2 guy y places first
Round 3 both place hidden and when both defs are locked then show it

I know my solution isnt good wnough but the problem here is with odd round number and rng involved in who places twice cause that dude has 33.3% vs 66.6% chance to avoid being caught

P.s. havent lost a single match for this reason but it can be exploitet tactically

Colinwhitworth69

I think it’s fine as is. You can’t always go first.

GinjabredMonsta

I mean, that's part of the fun of it and strategy. That's when you gotta make sure you pick appropriate defenders and attackers with who they have just in case you have to do round 3.

GinjabredMonsta

SCP1504 said:

Why not place 3 defenders and you choose your attacker every round and that's that

I feel that would make things pretty predictable and would just be a revamped version of arena

xNig

The guy who places defense first also gets to choose his champ last iirc.

Panchulon21

I dont see a problem with the way its done at all. Seems fine. Cant really be exploited. You still get to chose your attacker after their defender is chosen.

BitterSteel

Placing your defender first can sometimes be a pro as well.

Say I have a Sasquatch, but no poison immune on my drafts. Say my opponent has an IBom drafted, but no other regen counters.

I could place my Sasquatch to try and draw out his Ibom in order to prevent him from using him on defence, because I don’t have a poison immune to counter it.

Chris_118

BitterSteel said:

Placing your defender first can sometimes be a pro as well.

Say I have a Sasquatch, but no poison immune on my drafts. Say my opponent has an IBom drafted, but no other regen counters.

I could place my Sasquatch to try and draw out his Ibom in order to prevent him from using him on defence, because I don’t have a poison immune to counter it.

Even then the advantage is with your opponent though. They are the one that chooses whether to create two matchups with defender advantage (Sassy and Ibom defenders), or to counter your defender with ibom and place a defender that is a potentially favourable matchup for you.

If it was reversed, when they place their defender first they will know the sassy/ibom situation and can make the decision to force it by placing ibom. But if they don't place ibom, then you don't have to place sassy knowing ibom will handle him easily, hence the advantage would be with you placing second.

Ultimately though there are very few permutations in the last round and it doesn't create too much difference who places first or second. And part of the tactics in the first two rounds (and the draw) are to create favourable permutations in the third.

K00shMaan

qartweli said:

xNig said:

The guy who places defense first also gets to choose his champ last iirc.

Who picks attacker first doesnt matter from
Tactical point of view because it is i directly ties to picking defender moment

Who places defender first in last round is in disadvantage for no reason and thats what i mean.

Yes it is a part of strategy to play around and even chess is t fair cause who starts has always attacker position if he is good

But the impact of this is too great and those who are tactically skilled will “exploit” it

Don't know why you're getting so many disagrees. You've pointed out something that really is a significant advantage.
I don't really have any great ideas to address it other than making all defensive selections "blind" as in we haven't seen our opponents defender choice yet. Personally, it doesn't make sense to only do this for the 3rd round; it should either be in the gamemode or not for all rounds.

However, you are supposed to go first or go second 50% of the time so over the long run of games it should even out. It's not all that different than Homefield advantage in sports. It would be interesting to see some data showing the discrepancy of win rates. A lot of games are designed in a way for someone gets to go first even though it's objectively an advantage disadvantage to do so.

Etm34

BitterSteel said:

Placing your defender first can sometimes be a pro as well.

Say I have a Sasquatch, but no poison immune on my drafts. Say my opponent has an IBom drafted, but no other regen counters.

I could place my Sasquatch to try and draw out his Ibom in order to prevent him from using him on defence, because I don’t have a poison immune to counter it.

Came here to say exactly this. Have to use it to draw out one of their potentially tricky options for you. I haven’t found an issue with picking defense twice vs once

RicoShay

The forums are commonplace to express your disagreement through those reactions and tbh it's become all too frequently used but that's my opinion.

On topic: I agree 100% with the blind final pick because not only does the first to place have to choose their champs first and place twice but the 2nd gets to choose counters to their picks. You can debate that the baiting aspect of the first player is a fair measure to call player 1 to have the advantage but if it comes down to round 3 they're at the disadvantage because their hand is much smaller than when they started in the first round. Example if you have 2 metal champs and the opponent is player 2 with a magneto or mystic champs and they have a torch and choose 2nd. As controversial as it sounds I'd actually prefer that in the pick phase both choose at the same time similar to the triple draft in clash royale for example. You can't see who they picked until both have locked in so that the reroll isn't too large an advantage. These 2 changes in combination with carefully selected modes will make the mode fairer outside of roster size and development

Chacha888

Disadvantage of placing first on the 3rd round is insignificant since there are only 3 champs left in the pool. I can even argue placing first on the final round is actually advantageous. Nobody knows your skill and who you are comfortable fighting with or against better than yourself. You can force certain matchup by placing first.

It's fine as is, there is a 50/50 chance of drawing placing first or second. So it's fair.

rcm2017

I think its fine and thats probably one of the reasons for a timer to place champs. else people will keep strategizing like they r playing chess...

K00shMaan

Yeah we really just have to wait for the data to compile. If the Win Rate of going first is like 70%-80% or vice versa, that's a problem that needs to be looked into. If it's more like 55%-60%, then I think it's fine and that will just be the nature of the game.

GoddessIlias

Going first can also allow you to dictate the pace of the match by placing aggressively and forcing an all out war in the first two rounds instead of being passive and playing for three rounds. It’s undoubtedly a disadvantage but not nearly as big as you make it sound imo.

Edit: if you win the first round placing first, you have a subsequent sizable tactical advantage for the rest of the match from what I’ve noticed. It’s a double edged sword no doubt

GinjabredMonsta

qartweli said:

K00shMaan said:

qartweli said:

xNig said:

The guy who places defense first also gets to choose his champ last iirc.

Who picks attacker first doesnt matter from
Tactical point of view because it is i directly ties to picking defender moment

Who places defender first in last round is in disadvantage for no reason and thats what i mean.

Yes it is a part of strategy to play around and even chess is t fair cause who starts has always attacker position if he is good

But the impact of this is too great and those who are tactically skilled will “exploit” it

Don't know why you're getting so many disagrees. You've pointed out something that really is a significant advantage.
I don't really have any great ideas to address it other than making all defensive selections "blind" as in we haven't seen our opponents defender choice yet. Personally, it doesn't make sense to only do this for the 3rd round; it should either be in the gamemode or not for all rounds.

However, you are supposed to go first or go second 50% of the time so over the long run of games it should even out. It's not all that different than Homefield advantage in sports. It would be interesting to see some data showing the discrepancy of win rates. A lot of games are designed in a way for someone gets to go first even though it's objectively an advantage disadvantage to do so.

I usually get 99% disagrees here but somehow manage to be multiple master in mcoc

Its absolutely ok to disagree with me but the fact is i play higher then 99.9% as an officer

Ok...cool? What does this have to do with this subject? You can be a good player but have opinions people don't agree with