Shut down the buff program

At this point it's far more likely for a buffed champ to turn into an annoying defender than being actually useful in meaningful content
We don't need all 200 champs to clear content & we surely don't need to face any more annoyances than we already do

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pseudosane

This "buff program" has been fairly dismal this year.

Worknprogress

To me it feels like what’s the point? Still never going to use my Dpx, Jane Foster, Guilly etc. Sure they don’t have to be god tier but they are still avg to below avg. I still get disappointed when I pull them so yeah what’s the point? 🤷‍♂️

The whole point is to get severely lacking champs to the point of being average though. It's not now, nor has it ever been, intended for most buffs to be relevant to anyone barring people with rosters with significant holes in them.

Biggest mistake they ever made was having the first major buff in this iteration of them be the absolutely overturned Magneto. He should have never been released anywhere close to what he is and then we probably wouldn't have to sift through 30 threads everytime any champ is buffed and they're not relevant to late game players with large rosters.

Colinwhitworth69

Even when the buff program had not been nerfed, people complained about the buff program. Kabam explained that they were cutting back on this, so not sure why so many people seem surprised. To think that Kabam will silently change their mind and suddenly turn TJR into Doom or Yondu into Warlock is wishful thinking.

For me, I'll be happy if a buff is good (like Storm) and continue ignoring garbage champs like TJR. I wasn't using her before July, and I won't be using her now. So nothing has changed.

Don't get me wrong, I'd be jacked if the Groots and Rockets of my roster would become OP like Herc and Nimrod.

Gogi

To me it feels like what’s the point? Still never going to use my Dpx, Jane Foster, Guilly etc. Sure they don’t have to be god tier but they are still avg to below avg. I still get disappointed when I pull them so yeah what’s the point? 🤷‍♂️
The whole point is to get severely lacking champs to the point of being average though. It's not now, nor has it ever been, intended for most buffs to be relevant to anyone barring people with rosters with significant holes in them.

Biggest mistake they ever made was having the first major buff in this iteration of them be the absolutely overturned Magneto. He should have never been released anywhere close to what he is and then we probably wouldn't have to sift through 30 threads everytime any champ is buffed and they're not relevant to late game players with large rosters.

Comparing buffs to Magnetos buff is not the issue for what is going on right now, Kabam were clear that other buffs would not be on the same level which is ok. The issue here is they announce "buff" but there is barely any difference. 2022 buffs overall has been disappointing. Look at 2021 buffs ex Falcon,KP, Moleman,Yj they are not ground breaking champs but they are buffed properly and can be used pretty much in all content, Lady thor? at best in a perfect match up nothing more.

Worknprogress

To me it feels like what’s the point? Still never going to use my Dpx, Jane Foster, Guilly etc. Sure they don’t have to be god tier but they are still avg to below avg. I still get disappointed when I pull them so yeah what’s the point? 🤷‍♂️
The whole point is to get severely lacking champs to the point of being average though. It's not now, nor has it ever been, intended for most buffs to be relevant to anyone barring people with rosters with significant holes in them.

Biggest mistake they ever made was having the first major buff in this iteration of them be the absolutely overturned Magneto. He should have never been released anywhere close to what he is and then we probably wouldn't have to sift through 30 threads everytime any champ is buffed and they're not relevant to late game players with large rosters.
This is untrue and disingenuous. Kabam have done over 30 successful buffs in that same program up until December last year after magneto that have not broken the game, nor got people saying they wish the buff program gave buffs that were useful.

Saying it is purely because magneto was one overpowered buff and everyone expects that is a deflection you are using because you can’t accept the truth that after the old program constantly delivered buffs *that were not OP but still amazing* people are fed up of being excited for buffs from this new program that delivers duds.

It's not untrue in the slightest though. That's pretty much exactly what the stated point was. The fact that there have been champs buffed that also ended up being relevant to even the largest rosters doesn't change that fact.

This has always been yet another case of this community adding 2+2 and getting 450,000. The stated goal has always been bringing the bottom closer to the middle. Not once was it ever said the intention was to bring old champs to the top or even near that.

Worknprogress

People are confusing them saying less buffs will be done to increase the quality of them and thinking that quality is the same as more powerful. This player base has always loved just making things up and then stating them as facts.

GinjabredMonsta

To me it feels like what’s the point? Still never going to use my Dpx, Jane Foster, Guilly etc. Sure they don’t have to be god tier but they are still avg to below avg. I still get disappointed when I pull them so yeah what’s the point? 🤷‍♂️
The whole point is to get severely lacking champs to the point of being average though. It's not now, nor has it ever been, intended for most buffs to be relevant to anyone barring people with rosters with significant holes in them.

Biggest mistake they ever made was having the first major buff in this iteration of them be the absolutely overturned Magneto. He should have never been released anywhere close to what he is and then we probably wouldn't have to sift through 30 threads everytime any champ is buffed and they're not relevant to late game players with large rosters.
This is untrue and disingenuous. Kabam have done over 30 successful buffs in that same program up until December last year after magneto that have not broken the game, nor got people saying they wish the buff program gave buffs that were useful.

Saying it is purely because magneto was one overpowered buff and everyone expects that is a deflection you are using because you can’t accept the truth that after the old program constantly delivered buffs *that were not OP but still amazing* people are fed up of being excited for buffs from this new program that delivers duds.
It's not untrue in the slightest though. That's pretty much exactly what the stated point was. The fact that there have been champs buffed that also ended up being relevant to even the largest rosters doesn't change that fact.

This has always been yet another case of this community adding 2+2 and getting 450,000. The stated goal has always been bringing the bottom closer to the middle. Not once was it ever said the intention was to bring old champs to the top or even near that.

The issue is recently we haven't seen buffed champs brought closer to the middle unless in specific personal opinions. They are still closer to the bottom with the explanation being they were buffed for newer summoners not veterans

Worknprogress

To me it feels like what’s the point? Still never going to use my Dpx, Jane Foster, Guilly etc. Sure they don’t have to be god tier but they are still avg to below avg. I still get disappointed when I pull them so yeah what’s the point? 🤷‍♂️
The whole point is to get severely lacking champs to the point of being average though. It's not now, nor has it ever been, intended for most buffs to be relevant to anyone barring people with rosters with significant holes in them.

Biggest mistake they ever made was having the first major buff in this iteration of them be the absolutely overturned Magneto. He should have never been released anywhere close to what he is and then we probably wouldn't have to sift through 30 threads everytime any champ is buffed and they're not relevant to late game players with large rosters.
This is untrue and disingenuous. Kabam have done over 30 successful buffs in that same program up until December last year after magneto that have not broken the game, nor got people saying they wish the buff program gave buffs that were useful.

Saying it is purely because magneto was one overpowered buff and everyone expects that is a deflection you are using because you can’t accept the truth that after the old program constantly delivered buffs *that were not OP but still amazing* people are fed up of being excited for buffs from this new program that delivers duds.
It's not untrue in the slightest though. That's pretty much exactly what the stated point was. The fact that there have been champs buffed that also ended up being relevant to even the largest rosters doesn't change that fact.

This has always been yet another case of this community adding 2+2 and getting 450,000. The stated goal has always been bringing the bottom closer to the middle. Not once was it ever said the intention was to bring old champs to the top or even near that.
The issue is recently we haven't seen buffed champs brought closer to the middle unless in specific personal opinions. They are still closer to the bottom with the explanation being they were buffed for newer summoners not veterans

That's also completely subjective. There were people calling Storm the most busted buff since Magneto not long ago anyway.

Kappa2g

What they need to really do is stop "buffing" champions that are in the middle of the pack but instead focus on champions that literally have less than 10 lines in their entire kit like Ant-man, cyclops, OG iron man, Hulk.

They can take their time ( as in one buff per month) and have a look in how to modernize or add onto their kits to fit their class identities in 2022.

Worknprogress

In the last year we've had Storm, Gamora, Joe Fixit, Hawkeye, Nebula, King Groot, Venom pool, Bishop, and & Diablo buffed that are all relevant to even late game players with large rosters. 4/9 of those have been in the last 6 months.

Worknprogress

In the last year we've had Storm, Gamora, Joe Fixit, Hawkeye, Nebula, King Groot, Venom pool, Bishop, and & Diablo buffed that are all relevant to even late game players with large rosters. 4/9 of those have been in the last 6 months.
7 out of 9 of those are from a previous program that nobody has an issue with and has since been discontinued, in fact, most seem to want to return to that program because they don't like the new one.

1 of the remaining 2 is originally a buff from the previous program that then got tuned up in this one, so at best it's a tenuous example.

The last one is debatable, but lets side with you for arguments sake. 1/9 is a pretty poor showing of examples of why buffs are good at the moment.

How do you figure they're from a "previous program"?

We have the same exact program currently with the same stated goals but with a slower cadence.

Worknprogress

Going off your own completely off base designation of this being a new program, that would make 2/4 with Storm and Gamora instead of 1/9 since 5 of those 9 arbitrarily don't count so you can try to manufacture a point.

Also how is the last one debatable? People used Storm for the mutant Abyss challenge. Not sure how much more relevant to late game players you want from these.

Beewee

My favorite buffs were bishop, venompool, hood, and king groot. Can we go back to those kinds of buffs? Those were cool

SkyLord7000

In the last year we've had Storm, Gamora, Joe Fixit, Hawkeye, Nebula, King Groot, Venom pool, Bishop, and & Diablo buffed that are all relevant to even late game players with large rosters. 4/9 of those have been in the last 6 months.
7 out of 9 of those are from a previous program that nobody has an issue with and has since been discontinued, in fact, most seem to want to return to that program because they don't like the new one.

1 of the remaining 2 is originally a buff from the previous program that then got tuned up in this one, so at best it's a tenuous example.

The last one is debatable, but lets side with you for arguments sake. 1/9 is a pretty poor showing of examples of why buffs are good at the moment.
How do you figure they're from a "previous program"?

We have the same exact program currently with the same stated goals but with a slower cadence.

Four month gap and buff program hasn’t been the same since attribute announcements. Something has changed within that timeline.

Malreck04

I feel like it has basically been shut down in spirit

Worknprogress

In the last year we've had Storm, Gamora, Joe Fixit, Hawkeye, Nebula, King Groot, Venom pool, Bishop, and & Diablo buffed that are all relevant to even late game players with large rosters. 4/9 of those have been in the last 6 months.
7 out of 9 of those are from a previous program that nobody has an issue with and has since been discontinued, in fact, most seem to want to return to that program because they don't like the new one.

1 of the remaining 2 is originally a buff from the previous program that then got tuned up in this one, so at best it's a tenuous example.

The last one is debatable, but lets side with you for arguments sake. 1/9 is a pretty poor showing of examples of why buffs are good at the moment.
How do you figure they're from a "previous program"?

We have the same exact program currently with the same stated goals but with a slower cadence.
Because Kabam themselves have said that they transitioned from spending time on the buff program to spending time on the balancing program for new champions. That is a matter of record.

I view it as Old program: Time spent was only on the buff program
New program: Time is now spent on balancing, but occasional buffs.

It's not an opinion that less time is being spent on buffs now. To me, I make a differentiation between the pre and post balancing announcement because they spend different amounts of time on them, that's a fundamental change in the ethos of a program and therefore I label them different programs. If you'd rather say they are the same program, sure, be my guest! But you cannot deny the fact that less time is now being spent on the buffs.

Furthermore, I believe it's a pretty logical connection that less time on the buffs means lower quality since they cannot try more exciting things, change as much or be as adventurous. Just look at the recent buffs, staying away from how good a champion is do you really think that in terms of abilities added, these buffs are anything near to what we had in general before the recalibration of time committed to buffs?

Less time spent on buffs, lower quality buffs afterwards that are 1) less adventurous with abilites and 2) less impactful

Well it is technically an opinion that less time is being spent on buffs unless you mean collectively. You nor I have any clue how much time is spent on any specific buff. We know there are less buffs over all but that's all we actually know. The rest of what you said is just conjecture and opinion.

pseudosane

In the last year we've had Storm, Gamora, Joe Fixit, Hawkeye, Nebula, King Groot, Venom pool, Bishop, and & Diablo buffed that are all relevant to even late game players with large rosters. 4/9 of those have been in the last 6 months.
7 out of 9 of those are from a previous program that nobody has an issue with and has since been discontinued, in fact, most seem to want to return to that program because they don't like the new one.

1 of the remaining 2 is originally a buff from the previous program that then got tuned up in this one, so at best it's a tenuous example.

The last one is debatable, but lets side with you for arguments sake. 1/9 is a pretty poor showing of examples of why buffs are good at the moment.
How do you figure they're from a "previous program"?

We have the same exact program currently with the same stated goals but with a slower cadence.
Because Kabam themselves have said that they transitioned from spending time on the buff program to spending time on the balancing program for new champions. That is a matter of record.

I view it as Old program: Time spent was only on the buff program
New program: Time is now spent on balancing, but occasional buffs.

It's not an opinion that less time is being spent on buffs now. To me, I make a differentiation between the pre and post balancing announcement because they spend different amounts of time on them, that's a fundamental change in the ethos of a program and therefore I label them different programs. If you'd rather say they are the same program, sure, be my guest! But you cannot deny the fact that less time is now being spent on the buffs.

Furthermore, I believe it's a pretty logical connection that less time on the buffs means lower quality since they cannot try more exciting things, change as much or be as adventurous. Just look at the recent buffs, staying away from how good a champion is do you really think that in terms of abilities added, these buffs are anything near to what we had in general before the recalibration of time committed to buffs?

Less time spent on buffs, lower quality buffs afterwards that are 1) less adventurous with abilites and 2) less impactful
Well it is technically an opinion that less time is being spent on buffs unless you mean collectively. You nor I have any clue how much time is spent on any specific buff. We know there are less buffs over all but that's all we actually know. The rest of what you said is just conjecture and opinion.

Well they did say they would devote less manpower to it. Manpower= time, or are you saying you cannot believe Kabam at their word?

Malreck04

In the last year we've had Storm, Gamora, Joe Fixit, Hawkeye, Nebula, King Groot, Venom pool, Bishop, and & Diablo buffed that are all relevant to even late game players with large rosters. 4/9 of those have been in the last 6 months.
7 out of 9 of those are from a previous program that nobody has an issue with and has since been discontinued, in fact, most seem to want to return to that program because they don't like the new one.

1 of the remaining 2 is originally a buff from the previous program that then got tuned up in this one, so at best it's a tenuous example.

The last one is debatable, but lets side with you for arguments sake. 1/9 is a pretty poor showing of examples of why buffs are good at the moment.
How do you figure they're from a "previous program"?

We have the same exact program currently with the same stated goals but with a slower cadence.
Because Kabam themselves have said that they transitioned from spending time on the buff program to spending time on the balancing program for new champions. That is a matter of record.

I view it as Old program: Time spent was only on the buff program
New program: Time is now spent on balancing, but occasional buffs.

It's not an opinion that less time is being spent on buffs now. To me, I make a differentiation between the pre and post balancing announcement because they spend different amounts of time on them, that's a fundamental change in the ethos of a program and therefore I label them different programs. If you'd rather say they are the same program, sure, be my guest! But you cannot deny the fact that less time is now being spent on the buffs.

Furthermore, I believe it's a pretty logical connection that less time on the buffs means lower quality since they cannot try more exciting things, change as much or be as adventurous. Just look at the recent buffs, staying away from how good a champion is do you really think that in terms of abilities added, these buffs are anything near to what we had in general before the recalibration of time committed to buffs?

Less time spent on buffs, lower quality buffs afterwards that are 1) less adventurous with abilites and 2) less impactful
Well it is technically an opinion that less time is being spent on buffs unless you mean collectively. You nor I have any clue how much time is spent on any specific buff. We know there are less buffs over all but that's all we actually know. The rest of what you said is just conjecture and opinion.

They literally said that buffs would be decreased because of the balancing, I do not think having normal human comprehension abilities is an opinion

Qwerty12345

There are too many champions in the game. For champs to stand out and be great, yet not be copies of other champs requires the addition of complexity. That means pages of abilities that people don't want to read/remember, as well as more intricate interactions between all the abilities... and we can all see how well the Wiccan incinerate S2099 thread went on about these things. [which if we are going to have rules lawyering for the orders of operations... can we actually get a rulebook that explains these things, the order of calculations, and how things interact?]

Sometimes... less is more. It may not be the best for something designed to be collected/sold as such, but in terms of making a quality game where all the characters matter with minimal testing... it helps a lot.

Worknprogress

In the last year we've had Storm, Gamora, Joe Fixit, Hawkeye, Nebula, King Groot, Venom pool, Bishop, and & Diablo buffed that are all relevant to even late game players with large rosters. 4/9 of those have been in the last 6 months.
7 out of 9 of those are from a previous program that nobody has an issue with and has since been discontinued, in fact, most seem to want to return to that program because they don't like the new one.

1 of the remaining 2 is originally a buff from the previous program that then got tuned up in this one, so at best it's a tenuous example.

The last one is debatable, but lets side with you for arguments sake. 1/9 is a pretty poor showing of examples of why buffs are good at the moment.
How do you figure they're from a "previous program"?

We have the same exact program currently with the same stated goals but with a slower cadence.
Because Kabam themselves have said that they transitioned from spending time on the buff program to spending time on the balancing program for new champions. That is a matter of record.

I view it as Old program: Time spent was only on the buff program
New program: Time is now spent on balancing, but occasional buffs.

It's not an opinion that less time is being spent on buffs now. To me, I make a differentiation between the pre and post balancing announcement because they spend different amounts of time on them, that's a fundamental change in the ethos of a program and therefore I label them different programs. If you'd rather say they are the same program, sure, be my guest! But you cannot deny the fact that less time is now being spent on the buffs.

Furthermore, I believe it's a pretty logical connection that less time on the buffs means lower quality since they cannot try more exciting things, change as much or be as adventurous. Just look at the recent buffs, staying away from how good a champion is do you really think that in terms of abilities added, these buffs are anything near to what we had in general before the recalibration of time committed to buffs?

Less time spent on buffs, lower quality buffs afterwards that are 1) less adventurous with abilites and 2) less impactful
Well it is technically an opinion that less time is being spent on buffs unless you mean collectively. You nor I have any clue how much time is spent on any specific buff. We know there are less buffs over all but that's all we actually know. The rest of what you said is just conjecture and opinion.
Well they did say they would devote less manpower to it. Manpower= time, or are you saying you cannot believe Kabam at their word?

Devoting less manpower means less time collectively like I said in the post you quoted... Less time collectively doesn't mean less time spent on each buff however. Whether that's the case or not is just a guess by Amy of us

Shadowstrike

Even when the buff program had not been nerfed, people complained about the buff program. Kabam explained that they were cutting back on this, so not sure why so many people seem surprised. To think that Kabam will silently change their mind and suddenly turn TJR into Doom or Yondu into Warlock is wishful thinking.

For me, I'll be happy if a buff is good (like Storm) and continue ignoring garbage champs like TJR. I wasn't using her before July, and I won't be using her now. So nothing has changed.

Don't get me wrong, I'd be jacked if the Groots and Rockets of my roster would become OP like Herc and Nimrod.

I wonder how many of these people actually remember what the buff program was like before we even had a real buff program? Back in the old days (two and a half years ago) we were getting Buffs at most once a quarter, if not, once a year and even then it was only at most two.