Why is human torch not immune to nova flames?

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  • LeNoirFaineantLeNoirFaineant Member Posts: 8,672 ★★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    DNA3000 said:

    DNA3000 said:

    mitak4 said:

    With bleeding is a completely different story. Nova flames are only done by one champ and he should be immune to them. It just does not make any sense not to be.

    People keep saying stuff like this as if it was self-evident, and everyone is just supposed to automatically agree because it is so obvious. But let's break this down. A champion has the ability to produce a certain effect which can damage other champions. Should that champion itself be immune to such an effect?

    I think the thought process goes: if they were not immune, then they should damage themselves when they produce it. But that's very oversimplistic, and more importantly it doesn't match actual reality. Let's look at an exemplar real world example. Are electric eels immune to electricity? Actually, no they aren't. Not only are they not immune to electric discharges, they aren't even immune to their own electric discharges. The reason why they generally do not harm themselves with their discharges comes down to technique. They have special muscles that store and release electric fields, and when they use them they specifically contort themselves into shapes that place their most vital areas in places that will receive the least amount of electric discharge.

    So electric eels are not immune to their own electric discharges. It is the way they use them that makes them harm their targets while not harming themselves, not some intrinsic immunity to the effect. Electric eels can kill each other with their electric discharges, and an electric eel can commit inadvertent suicide if they use it incorrectly.

    Thus, the idea that a creature that generates an effect it uses as a weapon should be immune to that effect, or else it would be nonsensical to generate it, is contradicted by actual real world creatures, in a very analogous situation.
    And even though this is entirely accurate and disproves OPs point, as with Damien’s point it shouldn’t need to be made.

    ISO-8 in this universe changes champions and the laws of physics, Torch’s flames have been changed by ISO-8 so that they can be so hot they can damage other versions of Torch, that’s where it should really end. I understand why people want things to work exactly logically, but it’s a game, and balance is a real thing.
    There's a justification for why things work the way they do in the game world, that is endorsed by Marvel and thus 100% canon in the Battleworld dimension. I've been making a similar argument for a long time now. However, the separate point keeps coming up that while this justification exists, it is nonsensical. However, it is the "common sense" notion that it is nonsensical and is itself completely detached from reality.

    It brings up an interesting point, that one of the weird things I will never understand about people, is that they feel fictional worlds should follow their own expectations even more than the actual real world. When they accuse something of being "unrealistic" and it turns out that in fact it is not just realistic, it is actual reality, many people will actually double down and still say that even though the real world works that way it still doesn't make sense. For example, there's a perfectly reasonable explanation for why Iceman is not immune to coldsnap that is both consistent with Marvel canon and also consistent with actual physics but even when confronted with that explanation, there are people who still say that even if it is consistent with real world physics, it still doesn't make sense and shouldn't happen in a game. In other words, games should obey "common sense." Not the fictional reality and not real reality either. It should obey their own incomplete notions of what reality ought to be.

    I cannot do justice to how bizarre I find this.
    I made a comment awhile ago that was removed for approval because I corrected a typo. It will probably appear after it is no longer relevant. I don't understand the idea that a fictional world should follow expectations more than the real world. I also don't understand simply dismissing some things on the grounds that it is a fictional world. Fictional worlds should be internally consistent. We suspend disbelief for whatever the fictional world demands. Superpowers, magical beasts, or whatever. But language is still language and physics is still physics to whatever extent they haven't been altered by the fictional world. Galan is larger than other extra large champs, for example. The definition of large hasn't been altered because it's a fictional world. Therefore its absurd for him to be classified as anything smaller than extra large. I'm satisfied with Bitter Steel's justification for HT, but I don't accept that it's not worth asking the question simply because its a fictional world.
    Fictional worlds have some requirement to be internally consistent, sure. They are not immune to criticism on that basis (nor have I ever said otherwise). But their internal consistency should be judged on the basis of what they are attempting to communicate within their fictional worlds.

    For example, you say Galan is larger than other extra large champs. On what basis do you make that claim? Here, in the Battlerealm, while fighting in the Contest of Champions, Galan is not larger than other extra large champions:



    Now, you can argue that Galan should have been designed to be larger than that, but that exits the realm of fictional consistency because we have no in-universe information that would dictate Galan's size in the Battlerealm. Even in the -616 universe, Galactus' size is stated to be both highly variable and also somewhat misleading: as a cosmic being his apparent size isn't always a matter of physicality. How mortal beings perceive Galactus and his actions are governed by perceptual limitations. In the Battlerealm, where literally everything however powerful they might be in their home dimensions honors and obeys the will of the Battlerealm, we can't say what Galan's physical size would be with certainty, and we can't say what rejecting his role as Galactus and leaving his original reality to live in Battlerealm would do to his relative size in the Battlerealm.

    Cosmic beings don't really have a fixed size normally, but within the Battlerealm everything has one consistent size when fighting each other in the Contest. This is presumably a fiat of the Contest. So the real world reason and the fictional in-game reasons for Galan's size are probably essentially identical. Kabam designers wanted him to be L so they made him L, and Carina didn't want Galan to be squishing everyone in the Contest as a 30 foot tall cosmic being and so decreed him to be L.

    The Battlerealm is a fictional world that serves as the backdrop of a game with combat, and thus the entities that control that fictional world and all of the elements of reality in that world are essentially author inserts of the developers. Galan's size is one of those elements of reality they decide for the purpose of maintaining the contest similar to making bullets hurt cosmic entitles while in the Contest.
    Fair point. He is larger than some xl champs in the game but he is also the same size as some large champs. I would argue that he ought to have been xl but that's not the same thing. I guess I'll get off my soapbox lol
  • StellarStellar Member Posts: 1,089 ★★★★
    There are so many champion's ability that defy any kind of logic !

    Iceman not immune to cold....ice...cold... but he is immune to fire where a resistance while its armor is on could have more logic

    Torch not immune to nova flames...in which he is literally engulf in nova flames when activating nova prefight or during the fight !

    Dormmamu not immune to fire....while its head IS on fire !

    Sentry not immune to fire...while Void is ! they are physically the same person but with multiple personality disorder

    Electro not immune to its own static shock...that is generated by its own body.

    Loki, a Frost Giant, not immune or even resistant to cold...

    Unstoppable Colossus, a Colossus with the Cyttorak's powers that is no more immune to fire, cold...

    and there are probably a lot more
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