@BitterSteel all of your examples can be overcome, by champion choice, without having to change masteries.
The ops example of the mojo variant lane is a good one.
This is clearly similar.
If you run suicides, you can't do the fantastic 4 challenge without throwing a lot of revives at it for mere mortals or a 16 minute fight for someone like bero, msd or swedeah and huge dose of AI compliance/luck.
There is precedence here and I think kabam should reconsider such design in future.
Another day, another thread where suicides users haven’t realised that putting debuffs on yourself and punishing yourself for using specials is bad sometimes
There are many nodes that force you to use specials, there are many nodes that make it bad to have debuffs on you. You make the choice to place debuffs on yourself, you make the choice to lose health on specials.
Kabam makes fights that are challenging, it’s just a big downside of running suicides that difficult fights tend to make you play in a different way, or need different things. When you limit yourself to only play one way, or place certain effects on yourself it is going to be bad sometimes.
Let me ask, did u had to change masteries to do this fight?
This is not “bad sometimes”, it has became a trend to punish certain mastery users. This is kind of content that is badly though out to certain group of people, because Kabam limited options to use here and left no suicide friendly champions on the list just to spend units to swap masteries.
This would not be an issue if kabam would made mastery presets or make them free to change and cost to learn, then u can call this is an “RPG element” as Kabam miike said.
How would you feel if one day Kabam would make a fight that u have to unavoidably use units to do the fight and the RPG element would be spend revives…
No, but I don’t see how that’s relevant. We both have a choice whether to place debuffs on ourselves and lose 5% health. I view that as a bad decision so I have never needed to change my masteries for a fight. You have decided to place debuffs on yourself, and occasionally that ends up being a bad decision.
This is not a trend to punish “certain mastery users”, it just so happens that there are a large amount of combinations of nodes that are “anti-suicides” (by which I mean, you need to use specials more often - e.g. special delivery, or punish debuffs - e.g heal block). I could name you 40-50 odd nodes that kabam could put on a fight simply to make it challenging that suicides users would have a disadvantage on purely because of what suicides do.
This doesn’t mean the world is out to get you, it just means that by coincidence, debuffs on you can be bad - using specials and losing 5% health can be bad. This shouldn’t be a surprise.
Sorry but, the question is why are you in this tread trying to talk about something that doesn’t affect you personally and trying justify something that is clearly badly thought out?
Every single node in the game can be played with “RPG element” by choosing correct champion that plays around those nodes easily without any downsides of loosing HP due to recoil or LQ and DE.
The problem here is limitations of the champions without the actual choice and the only one solution is to spend units on mastery swap. There is nowhere in the game that punishes players by having any other masteries than suicides. Nowhere that u have to change your “standard” masteries to do the fight and only option is just to swap masteries, there is always a choice of using correct champions that can do the fight, does not matter what masteries are u using except here..
How is it that hard to understand players frustration about this?
Suicides has its pros, and it has its cons. You decide if you want the pros, but the cons come with it.
Not only does every mastery have its pros and cons, but they may change over time. After mole man's fix I considered speccing stand your ground into my mastery setup, because it offered a way to keep the true strike up indefinitely. There was suddenly an additional benefit to the mastery, and I consider it a more worthwhile investment for my roster than I used to. In the same way, the cons of a mastery can increase, whether through new content like this, or new champions
@BitterSteel all of your examples can be overcome, by champion choice, without having to change masteries.
The ops example of the mojo variant lane is a good one.
This is clearly similar.
If you run suicides, you can't do the fantastic 4 challenge without throwing a lot of revives at it for mere mortals or a 16 minute fight for someone like bero, msd or swedeah and huge dose of AI compliance/luck.
There is precedence here and I think kabam should reconsider such design in future.
Or allow free mastery swap for that event.
What you've missed out though, is that the only reason this fight can't be done with suicides is because of the objective. This fight can easily be done with suicides based on the champion choice, Kitty, poison immune, power control etc. With every example i gave above, I could create a scenario where those masteries would be punished more based on limiting the champions used - the point was, suicides is not alone in having downsides.
I understand your point, but there is no reason that every single fight should be doable with every single mastery. There are some fights impossible to do with certain mastery set ups, why should this one be any different?
No one choses it with intention to change it every week.
I change mine all the time. 60 units, no big deal.
60 units and no big deal? If you spend your whole day in the arenas then yes. But some of us, that don't have that many units don't wanna waste it on unnecessary mastery changes
If you can’t afford to use the masteries, you shouldn’t use the masteries. I don’t mean to sound flippant, but that’s what it boils down to. I have them unlocked but don’t use them outside of exceptional circumstances because I don’t want to spend my resources on swapping back and forth.
What's the logic behind this? I unlocked them and I use them all the time. Why you used the word afford?
The conversation was about the cost associated with turning them on and off for different pieces of content. For example, turning them off to place war defense or because you have to fight a nasty Hazard Shift Void and can’t afford to have the debuffs on you. Or because a specific fight calls for spamming specials and you can’t eat that much recoil damage without having to spend several revives.
There are tons of conditions under which it would be better to not be running the recoil tree masteries. Similarly, there are lots of places where they are extremely useful. But they are, by their nature, not supposed to be purely helpful to the players. There’s a reason the player base calls them the suicide masteries. They hurt you. Sometimes you can play around that, sometimes you can’t.
In the past before we had buff immune champions, it used to be common practice for players to turn off the dexterity mastery when fighting Dormammu or Mojo. It’s not unheard of to turn off willpower when fighting a beefy Warlock. Does it suck to do that? Yes! Yes it does! But the idea that this is somehow targeting people who use liquid courage and double edge specifically is silly.
This particular fight was designed around that shank node, where attacking into his block places a very weak bleed debuff on you, and clap back, which reflects your debuffs back at you. That is the challenge of the fight, making you be careful about how and when you attack and what debuffs you place or else he’ll get to his sp3 and wipe you out. Get rid of that interaction and all you’ve got is Nick Fury with a big health pool.
In your example with Void I could use some champs to play around the node like Shang Chi, Ghost etc. Plus if I don't have the perfect counter while I'm running suicides someone else could take this fight.
Which fight requires for you to spam sp attacks? If you mean 'Encroaching Stun' then you can play around this node again by playing with champions like Kitty or Apocalypse who both are stun immune.
They called suicides cause the recoil is killing you. And again you can play around that too with champs like Kitty, Ghost etc. If you build your roster around the suicides masteries they can only be helpful.
It takes like not even 15 units to turn off the Dexterity Mastery and to turn it back on. Taking off the suicides its 4 times that. Personally, yes its unheard of turning off the Willpower Mastery while I'm fighting Warlock. I can again work around that by using Angela, a cosmic champ with Odin's prefights, Venom etc.
Instead of when the attacker is suffering from every debuff, they could change it to every debuff minus the poison one. The bleed ticks only for 16 secs so you have to play around it and after that it would be a normal fight.
In every example you gave there are at least 3 options to choose from. But in EoP you must also complete the solo objectives which restrain your options
The argument is that there is no other option but to switch, but using them is a choice. The other side of that is true, actually. They're elective because there is no content whatsoever that requires you to run them. They're optional.
Seems the notion that every objective of an EoP must be met is the root of this frustration. Sure, it's nice to get all the objectives, or its nice to not have to revive a lot, but everyone must decide how much investment they want to make to claim the rewards. I'm new to paragon, and I'd love to claim all the points, but presently my resources are better spent on exploring 8.1. It's a personal choice.
A friend of mine used 13 revives with Torch, with Sui on. Think thats ok. And if you play perfect with Torch, Skrull, Fantastic or Thing you can do even more. Push Nick to SP2 and evade his specials as often as possible to give him burnout-charges. After 10 charges he is power locked. This is the time you can hit him and then repeat.
EoP is known for the need of using different champs and Sui narrows the usability and selection of champs even more.
So if you use Sui it is your own fault. There always will be nodes or champs needed wich don't fit to this specific mastery.
Came here to say that your friend had it right. I thought it would be easy to get cornered trying to bait the SP2 so many times but he’s not stingy (did happen a couple of times). I found that it helps to not hold block at all after his special and very often he’ll launch them back to back.
After quite a few practice runs I managed to get him down to 40%, then 5 more revives after that. Hope it helps anyone using suicides.
Comments
The ops example of the mojo variant lane is a good one.
This is clearly similar.
If you run suicides, you can't do the fantastic 4 challenge without throwing a lot of revives at it for mere mortals or a 16 minute fight for someone like bero, msd or swedeah and huge dose of AI compliance/luck.
There is precedence here and I think kabam should reconsider such design in future.
Or allow free mastery swap for that event.
I understand your point, but there is no reason that every single fight should be doable with every single mastery. There are some fights impossible to do with certain mastery set ups, why should this one be any different?
Which fight requires for you to spam sp attacks? If you mean 'Encroaching Stun' then you can play around this node again by playing with champions like Kitty or Apocalypse who both are stun immune.
They called suicides cause the recoil is killing you. And again you can play around that too with champs like Kitty, Ghost etc. If you build your roster around the suicides masteries they can only be helpful.
It takes like not even 15 units to turn off the Dexterity Mastery and to turn it back on. Taking off the suicides its 4 times that.
Personally, yes its unheard of turning off the Willpower Mastery while I'm fighting Warlock. I can again work around that by using Angela, a cosmic champ with Odin's prefights, Venom etc.
Instead of when the attacker is suffering from every debuff, they could change it to every debuff minus the poison one. The bleed ticks only for 16 secs so you have to play around it and after that it would be a normal fight.
In every example you gave there are at least 3 options to choose from. But in EoP you must also complete the solo objectives which restrain your options
I found that it helps to not hold block at all after his special and very often he’ll launch them back to back.
After quite a few practice runs I managed to get him down to 40%, then 5 more revives after that.
Hope it helps anyone using suicides.