Continued Attack on Recoil Mastery Tree Users

(Disclaimer: If you don’t run recoil tree and are just going to comment “then don’t run those masteries” please just don’t read this or comment. I don’t judge you for the masteries you use so don’t judge me for the ones i like to use)

Whether it’s Battle Grounds, Quests, Alliance Wars or even Eternity of Pain you have made running the recoil mastery tree more expensive and more difficult than ever. It’s always been a trade off taking damage, having less regen, and having to watch special use but in return getting more damage output and even being able to heal with some champions like diablo, Hercules, kitty pryde, etc. was worth it to a lot of players like me but recently you have made so many nodes that completely cut off the legs of recoil tree users. It was one thing having to take off recoil masteries to place aw defense, dealing with the annoying heal block nodes and having to fight voids, warlocks, etc. (which was still a pain as it was) but you just keep making recoil tree masteries unusable at every turn. You keep adding nodes to eop that are not just hard but impossible to do with recoil masteries (like this weeks Nick Fury), you continually make bg metas that extremely negatively affect recoil users, and now you’ve made this seasons aw meta (unsteady ground) where you have a 60% chance to glance just for having the bleed and poison for the recoil tree on you. You should be trying to create an equal playing ground for recoil and non recoil players but instead you just keep making it worse. You had a chance to help the situation by making a mastery 2.0 system that would let us change our masteries for free or at least cheaper and easier to certain presets but instead you just put in presets for specifically bgs. I’v been playing this game for about 7 years and have been a recoil tree user for the majority of them. I’ve built my roster around those champs that are good/better with them and not ranked champions that can’t be used with them and now i just feel like everything i worked for, am used to, and like can’t be used most of the time and frankly it makes me feel like i don’t want to continue to play this game that is constantly punishing me for the choices I've made in it that YOU have have put in the game. It’s not like i’m doing anything illegal or shady. These are masteries that you put in this game for players to run and now everywhere you look is nodes punishing us for it. I already have to spend more units than non recoil tree users every time i place aw d but now i have to take them off for eop, if i want to play bgs, and now for aw attack..? So i basically just can't run them anymore and all my champions i’ve ranked as a result of running recoil tree are useless/worse.. There are a lot of things pushing me away from this game but this might actually be the biggest one. You need to change your outlook on designing nodes asap or i just don’t see how i can continue to play this game.

Comments

BitterSteel

I know it feels like the game is out to get you, but when you decide to place two damaging debuffs on yourself and lose 5% health per special, you will inevitably come across places where that is punished.

Having debuffs on you is generally a bad thing. You have decided to keep some on you. Losing health is a bad thing, you have decided to lose health when you throw specials.

You get the pros of having more attack, and healing with some champions like Omega red, Diablo etc, but you can’t then complain when the cons come knocking.

The names of the masteries should give you a clue. Glass cannon. Recoil. Liquid courage. Double edge

A glass canon is strong offence, weak defence. You get attack, you have less health as a result.

The recoil of a gun is a downside of using it to attack

Liquid courage. Using alcohol, pretty clear downside there, for an upside of feeling a bit braver

Double edge - literally the definition of something that has pros and cons.

Unfortunately, your mastery tree just has too many nodes and interactions that punish it. I could make you a list of 40-50 of them now. When kabam are designing fights, are they supposed to just avoid them because of your optional mastery? Are they supposed to just say “well, everything in the game should be tailored towards this choice with clear cons”? I don’t think so. I think you make the choice for the upsides, and the downsides come with it.

unknown

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Kerneas

I don't use it and therefore I break your rule, but hopefully you won't report me for agreeing that the amount of content that makes this masteries much harder to use has increased by a lot and it makes it therefore less desirable to run this setup.

At some places it makes sense (BGs), but in AW it sounds like a nonsense. Not only do you make defense 10x easier, but it also cripples you on offense now.

Imo there should be kept a "quid pro quo" system. You get attack bonus, but can't avoid the damage you get. If you can't use the dmg bonus (due to Glancing), you shouldn't take dmg either. That's my vision only tho, I understand most will be against. I wouldn't change it in-game either, because the current system has worked well for years.

Generally, I think more mastery loadouts are the way to go

GinjabredMonsta

I can understand the argument her for more mastery load outs and will agree there, but the argument that punishing masteries shouldn’t cause you to be punished is silly. These are masteries that punish you for increased damage and help you clear things faster. Of course thinks like EoP and potentially even BG will punish you for that. EoP isn’t supposed to be easy and BG, well BG is BG and still in its infancy, but time is it’s “tie breaker”. I will agree that there should be at least another mastery load out option that can be switched too, but this is also the risk that is taken when you put on these masteries. Not everything will or should agree with it.

phillgreen

Didnt read wall of text but recoil should be after the other suicides, said it years ago. Recoil cant be mitigated other than very specific circumstances while poison/bleed immunity is easy to avoid.

Have them unlocked, dont use them.

Wicket329

Didnt read wall of text but recoil should be after the other suicides, said it years ago. Recoil cant be mitigated other than very specific circumstances while poison/bleed immunity is easy to avoid.

Have them unlocked, dont use them.

That’s the reason recoil isn’t behind the other two. If you could run liquid courage and double edge *without* recoil, there would be either no downside or an extremely small downside for like half the champions in the game. The entire point of that mastery setup is that it is a tradeoff. You have to give something up to get something.

I am wholly in favor of making presets available so that mastery swapping is at least easier and maybe even cheaper, but the recoil tree masteries should remain as they are.

unknown

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Wicket329

Didnt read wall of text but recoil should be after the other suicides, said it years ago. Recoil cant be mitigated other than very specific circumstances while poison/bleed immunity is easy to avoid.

Have them unlocked, dont use them.
That’s the reason recoil isn’t behind the other two. If you could run liquid courage and double edge *without* recoil, there would be either no downside or an extremely small downside for like half the champions in the game. The entire point of that mastery setup is that it is a tradeoff. You have to give something up to get something.

I am wholly in favor of making presets available so that mastery swapping is at least easier and maybe even cheaper, but the recoil tree masteries should remain as they are.
You mean no downside like week 1 EoP having heal block so the damage cant be mitigated and you slowly die or week 2 having debilitating refund meaning Fury can just rapid fire non stop SPs?

This iteration of EoP feels like that for whatever reason people who run suicides have specifically been targeted for extra punishment.

I mean no downside like if you run a bleed/poison immune champ, there would literally be no downside to the tree. The context of the particular conversation you are jumping into is not limited to EOP, it was a suggestion to reorder the mastery tree. And I was explaining why, while well-intentioned, it would not be a good idea. Please reference the post I was quoting and responding to before assuming I’m arguing against you.

unknown

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Shiroihara

Slightly off-topic but it's possible to do the Fury fight with suicides on. Need to bait the SP2 till he's power-locked and then do some damage. It's not easy peasy by any means but totally doable. It took me 6 revives after some practice.

Qwerty12345

you know there are other masteries that can back fire on you. Assassin's hurt against the Kang boss for example. Other times willpower hurts you when fighting Warlock.

Several are a "doubled edged" sword" if you pardon the pun, and that doesn't even cover the benefits of using one vs. another with limited mastery points.

There are always times you want to change the masteries... and I can appreciate the released relic equip cost as a potential solution, where you get a limited number of changes per time period for free... but it should cost you to change them every single fight / that isn't the intention.

That said... you seem to be an intelligent player with all the facts. I'm not going to tell you not to use them... but I will say... choose to make changes when the benefit outweighs the cost, and try to generally use well rounded masteries that don't require you to change every 15 minutes.

Demonzfyre

WTF is a recoil tree?

GinjabredMonsta

WTF is a recoil tree?

It’s like those wobble punching bags, you hit it and it bounces back and hits you in the face. Good laugh for everyone

Moosetiptronic

If kabam wants to refund me the units for unlocking them, rank down gems for Omega and Diablo on particular (plus some others) and then remove suicides from the game, then I'm good with that.

Adding in increasing amounts of content where their disadvantages are not the only negatives and in some cases roadblocks you, is poor design and a repeated kick in the nuts for those who have invested in these.

And for those of us that have; we've often committed an entire build of each of 4*, 5* and 6* roster build around suicides, so that we aren't hugely impacted by them. They aren't a negative in most cases. Even that stacked warlock or void; provided I can take a double immune for the former and shulk or shrugger for the latter, then I'm good. And I've a roster geared up for that. I make BG selection choices with that in mind.

When you've invested in this tree, you commit a lot to working around it.

@Kabam Miike and @Kabam Jax on that note, is there any chance of getting a developer view on double edge/liquid courage and how much those who have invested in these (one of the highest investments in the game) are going to be impacted by design going forwards, so we can make better informed decisions?

TitoBandito187

WTF is a recoil tree?

I think he means Groot. I recoil everytime I spin a crystal and he shows up

Vergeman78

Should they refund me my catalysts I invested in 5* as the game is moving forward to 7* soon and most of those champs will be irrelevant?How about offers I bought years ago, that money went to waste. How about the sig stones invested in Thor Ragnarok for his prestige now that he isn’t top5 anymore?

Games evolve, we have to deal with the consequences. And yes, I have the masteries unlocked and used them. But switched a while back as it wasn’t worth it to me anymore. Put my big boy pants on and moved on

TyEdge

I know it feels like the game is out to get you, but when you decide to place two damaging debuffs on yourself and lose 5% health per special, you will inevitably come across places where that is punished.

Having debuffs on you is generally a bad thing. You have decided to keep some on you. Losing health is a bad thing, you have decided to lose health when you throw specials.

You get the pros of having more attack, and healing with some champions like Omega red, Diablo etc, but you can’t then complain when the cons come knocking.

The names of the masteries should give you a clue. Glass cannon. Recoil. Liquid courage. Double edge

A glass canon is strong offence, weak defence. You get attack, you have less health as a result.

The recoil of a gun is a downside of using it to attack

Liquid courage. Using alcohol, pretty clear downside there, for an upside of feeling a bit braver

Double edge - literally the definition of something that has pros and cons.

Unfortunately, your mastery tree just has too many nodes and interactions that punish it. I could make you a list of 40-50 of them now. When kabam are designing fights, are they supposed to just avoid them because of your optional mastery? Are they supposed to just say “well, everything in the game should be tailored towards this choice with clear cons”? I don’t think so. I think you make the choice for the upsides, and the downsides come with it.

I get all of this, but how many times during SOP or early EOP was running suicides clearly impractical? I don’t have a strong memory of there being issues until maybe Overseer (and Warlock but that’s a willpower issue, not suicides) but that is very much off the top of my head.

Demonzfyre

I know it feels like the game is out to get you, but when you decide to place two damaging debuffs on yourself and lose 5% health per special, you will inevitably come across places where that is punished.

Having debuffs on you is generally a bad thing. You have decided to keep some on you. Losing health is a bad thing, you have decided to lose health when you throw specials.

You get the pros of having more attack, and healing with some champions like Omega red, Diablo etc, but you can’t then complain when the cons come knocking.

The names of the masteries should give you a clue. Glass cannon. Recoil. Liquid courage. Double edge

A glass canon is strong offence, weak defence. You get attack, you have less health as a result.

The recoil of a gun is a downside of using it to attack

Liquid courage. Using alcohol, pretty clear downside there, for an upside of feeling a bit braver

Double edge - literally the definition of something that has pros and cons.

Unfortunately, your mastery tree just has too many nodes and interactions that punish it. I could make you a list of 40-50 of them now. When kabam are designing fights, are they supposed to just avoid them because of your optional mastery? Are they supposed to just say “well, everything in the game should be tailored towards this choice with clear cons”? I don’t think so. I think you make the choice for the upsides, and the downsides come with it.
I get all of this, but how many times during SOP or early EOP was running suicides clearly impractical? I don’t have a strong memory of there being issues until maybe Overseer (and Warlock but that’s a willpower issue, not suicides) but that is very much off the top of my head.

There hasn't been many and you pointed out the 2 previous ones.

But... In classic overreacting, 1 fight means it's the end of the world. They even said they don't think they can continue to play because of this one fight after 6 years. That's besides the point that there have been many fights in the game that required suicides to be off.

Ercarret

I have no problem with an EOP fight having a hard regen counter. It's supposed to be some of the most challenging fights in the game and a heal block node fits right in under those circumstances. It's only when those nodes pop up too frequently in regular content (looking at you, Skill Chapter in EQ) that I frown a bit.

However, I also think it's worth keeping one thing in mind when the occasional anti-recoil node pops up: whenever it doesn't, you get an absolutely massive advantage over non-recoil players. +60% damage is a huge increase and makes every fight much easier as long as you have the champions to mitigate the damage you take. It makes BG harder, but Arena easier. It's a constant give and take, and those players who choose to not put them on are at a constant disadvantage damage-wise. In fact, if there weren't the occasional roadblock for recoil users, I think those masteries would be way too OP.

As for EOP, I can only really think of one fight that was made significantly harder with the recoil tree on, and that was last week's fight with its passive heal block node. I don't think recoil users were screwed over this week - in fact, I'd argue that it allowed the fight to be played much safer since you could just shut off Fury's impossible-to-dex SP1 - and I think anyone with Willpower was equally screwed during the Warlock fight. I don't remember any other fight interacting with your healing/debuffs in a way that's relevant to this discussion, and that's over several months' worth of endgame content. I don't really see a continued attack on recoil users there.

AverageDesi

Ok hear me out. I used to run suicides, BUT realised that i was better off without them since I only do BG.
SO.I.TURNED.THEM.OFF.!!!!

AverageDesi

The last two EOP fights were super forgiving to suicide users considering the advantage you have. For havok you could remove them so there's nothing to complain. And here you could heal all the damage you lost from bleed due to willpower of disorients and bleeds. Not only the power lock after 5 specials helps a lot since they're power locked.

Fit_Fun9329

I run suicides because I like the PI Boost for arena. Just milestones though.

I am in a decision process now whether or not I should turn it off for eop, war etc.

Man I like the power boost ☹️

Shiroihara

For me the key point is the Suicides Tax. Let me switch masteries free of cost or at the very least allow me to have more than one build.
Then you can get as crazy as you like with nodes.

unknown

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Wicket329

There's already a heavy price for using the sides as it shrinks the pool of usable champs down to 10-20%. Adding nodes like heal block is just mean.

Many of the best champions in the game are in that pool. Hercules, Diablo, BWCV, Omega Red, Omega Sentinel, Nimrod, Ultron, and so so so many more. And they’re all made exponentially better as a result. Yeah, you limit your pool, but you amplify that pool’s effectiveness dramatically.

Coppin

RLM: Recoil Life Matters

Colinwhitworth69

You should enable the Paragraph Return mastery. It would seriously up your posting game.

Maverick75

@Smeagz23 Please put some soace in your next texts. I read this one because the subject was interesting but what a hard block...

I run these masteries since 2016.

Yes, their activation was also my biggest cost in the game.

Yes, there are pros and cons.
Pros:
- Hit harder but not that much...
- Arenas are a bit easier and their fights are a bit faster.
- There are some champions that take a real advantage of these masteries but the list is very short among the 210 champions the game. With 10 fingers to count them, I have more than enough.

Cons:
- Double Edge makes loose around 7% of your heath in 1 fight with the best masteries, and much more (up to 20%) without them.
- Liquid Courage reduces the regeneration by 33%.
- Recoil cost 5% of health per SP1 or SP2 so play without them. And as a SP hits harder than a base attack, the gain on duration is not so big.
- As a consequence, your AW defenders are weaker.
- I won’t disable my masteries to check this, but I am pretty sure that the real difference with and without Liquid Courage and Double Edge when hitting is not 60%.
- As it was not enough, Kabam disabled (silently) the Suture effect on Double Edge bleeding for a while (by restricting to bleeding caused by the opponent). The Willpower effect was reduced several years ago. And I am not sure Coagulate is still so effective on Double Edge. That’s why the loss is important on every fight, even if you play perfectly and have the best masteries to reduce the effects.

Yes, there were more than 2 fights of EoP designed against these masteries. As I won’t change my masteries for EoP, I just skipped the annoying weeks.