Spider-Man Buff Reactions [Merged Threads]

NeoDazarasNeoDazaras Member Posts: 123
edited February 2023 in General Discussion
In case you're unaware of the details of the OG Spidey rework, here is KarateMike's video covering it. As is commonly known, the rework is subject to change.

In the early days of the Contest, the Science class was by far the weakest. This was in large part due to the general lack of damage in favor of ineffective debuffs. Ironically, Spider-Man was one of the only well-liked Science champions on account of his access to Armor Break (and the damage that came with it). And while champs like Luke Cage and She-Hulk were eventually reworked to have access to both damage and utility, this Spider-Man rework seems to ride the line between the old Science class' meaningless playstyles and the new Science class' toolbox of relevant God-tiers.

As Kabam has mentioned before, many of these buffs to older characters are "not meant to appeal to the endgame players, but to newer players who need easy-to-use champs". This line of thinking is flawed, proven entirely by Seatin's newest Free-To-Play challenge which moves past 1, 2, and 3 champions almost immediately. I digress, the point is that Spidey's rework seems to prioritize a debuff-reliant loop of damage. Kabam has had issues with this implementation in the past, as Deadpool (X-Force) is a prime example of a champion that requires 2 minutes of setup for a miniscule amount of damage. Unlike the missed mark of DPX's rework, Spider-Man's loop seems to have some legs to it despite being very flawed.

Though the loop seems very satisfying to pull off, and the damage seems to be present even if less than expected, the consistency and damage of the loop hinges on the Stun from the Special 2 (which weakens Physical Resistance). This is a problem, as the abundance of content that actively punishes players who rely on Stuns and Parry are prevalent both in early acts and in the latest War and EOP content. And unlike champions like Doctor Doom and America Chavez, who have mechanics that can activate without the assist of a Stun, there's no way to work around a Stun immunity. It simply does not work if they can't be stunned (or worse, punish you for trying it).

So how do we fix it? For starters, replace the Stun effect with a simple Physical Resistance debuff (scaling with the Taunt count as it currently does). This works around the flaw of the loop while still keeping Spidey a debuff reliant Science champion. Additionally, while the selection of Debuffs at Spidey's disposal is very tantalizing, I would like for Kabam to preserve the Armor Break on Heavy that the current version has. Outside of teammate and synergy bonuses (like CAIW), the current Spider-Man is the only Science Champion with access to Armor Break. This gives him a sense of individuality in the class, and acts as a sort of homage for older players as the once useful Spider-Man in the early days of the contest.

TL;DR Spidey's rework looks fun and relevant, but suffers a critical design flaw that may hinder its ease-of-use for both new and veteran players. With these changes, I think Spider-Man's new kit would be a welcome addition to The Contest. [6.5/10]
Post edited by Kabam Miike on
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Comments

  • SquammoSquammo Member Posts: 572 ★★★
    edited February 2023







  • CaptainaidenCaptainaiden Member Posts: 1,086 ★★★★
    Pikolu said:

    Squammo said:

    Current Spider-Man seems better than this. Values seem really weird also, so here is to hoping this is missing most of the final Kit.



    The data disagrees with your statement. This is the current spidey kit.
    Hahahaha he show the what on the beta

    But i think it is okay, not good but still okay
  • SonOfArgu16SonOfArgu16 Member, Guardian Posts: 263 Guardian
    Squammo said:








    IMO, it's not a bad kit for him. The evade percentage seems kinda low for a maxed out sig ability. I like the concept of the "webbing." It's also good to remember that since Spider-Man was one of the OG characters Kabam can't make his kit too complicated for the newbies
  • PikoluPikolu Member, Guardian Posts: 7,981 Guardian
    edited February 2023

    Pikolu said:

    Squammo said:

    Current Spider-Man seems better than this. Values seem really weird also, so here is to hoping this is missing most of the final Kit.



    The data disagrees with your statement. This is the current spidey kit.
    Hahahaha he show the what on the beta

    But i think it is okay, not good but still okay
    It does have potential. The sig ability values seem very odd, a .06 second increase to taunt duration doesn't seem very helpful. But if you parry and MLM, that's 3 guaranteed taunts, you do that a few times, then you sp2 and you got like 3.5 seconds of big damage. It isn't much, but it is better than what he is right now.

    The things I like about what OP shows
    1. More damage and no random evades when trying to parry.
    2. More utility
    3. He will be a less annoying defender since champions like valkyrie can safely hit his block without worry of him evading. Also with all those debuffs, willpower is going to go crazy 🤣
  • Zuko_ILCZuko_ILC Member Posts: 1,513 ★★★★★
    Very disappointed in this buff....he hits like a wet noodle.
  • SonOfArgu16SonOfArgu16 Member, Guardian Posts: 263 Guardian
    edited February 2023
    Pikolu said:



    It does have potential. The sig ability values seem very odd, a .06 second increase to taunt duration doesn't seem very helpful. But if you parry and MLM, that's 3 guaranteed taunts, you do that a few times, then you sp2 and you got like 3.5 seconds of big damage. It isn't much, but it is better than what he is right now.

    The things I like about what OP shows
    1. More damage and no random evades when trying to parry.
    2. More utility
    3. He will be a less annoying defender since champions like valkyrie can safely hit his block without worry of him evading. Also with all those debuffs, willpower is going to go crazy 🤣

    I see what you mean, He should have a petrify debuff at least to replace the debilitate debuff or else he'll be making defs heal instead of dealing damage
  • SpaceCorpSpaceCorp Member Posts: 73
    I agree. OG Spidey looks amazing from Karatemike's video. Plus, his new model looks amazing. Wish they had used the new model for the beta videos
  • AxewAxew Member Posts: 620 ★★★★
    edited February 2023
    Is there really no way to increase damage? Doesn’t seem promising if so. Utility looks nice though, but I would add some sort of fury or attack increase mechanism alongside the physical vulnerability off SP2
  • CaptainaidenCaptainaiden Member Posts: 1,086 ★★★★
    Pikolu said:

    Pikolu said:

    Squammo said:

    Current Spider-Man seems better than this. Values seem really weird also, so here is to hoping this is missing most of the final Kit.



    The data disagrees with your statement. This is the current spidey kit.
    Hahahaha he show the what on the beta

    But i think it is okay, not good but still okay
    It does have potential. The sig ability values seem very odd, a .06 second increase to taunt duration doesn't seem very helpful. But if you parry and MLM, that's 3 guaranteed taunts, you do that a few times, then you sp2 and you got like 3.5 seconds of big damage. It isn't much, but it is better than what he is right now.

    The things I like about what OP shows
    1. More damage and no random evades when trying to parry.
    2. More utility
    3. He will be a less annoying defender since champions like valkyrie can safely hit his block without worry of him evading. Also with all those debuffs, willpower is going to go crazy 🤣
    Agree. But hoping better
  • NeoDazarasNeoDazaras Member Posts: 123
    I thought of some ideas for how to fix the buff here, but overall I agree. We shouldn't have another Deadpool X-Force in the game, who's arguably worse than his original version by virtue of ease of use.
  • PikoluPikolu Member, Guardian Posts: 7,981 Guardian

    Pikolu said:

    Pikolu said:

    Squammo said:

    Current Spider-Man seems better than this. Values seem really weird also, so here is to hoping this is missing most of the final Kit.



    The data disagrees with your statement. This is the current spidey kit.
    Hahahaha he show the what on the beta

    But i think it is okay, not good but still okay
    It does have potential. The sig ability values seem very odd, a .06 second increase to taunt duration doesn't seem very helpful. But if you parry and MLM, that's 3 guaranteed taunts, you do that a few times, then you sp2 and you got like 3.5 seconds of big damage. It isn't much, but it is better than what he is right now.

    The things I like about what OP shows
    1. More damage and no random evades when trying to parry.
    2. More utility
    3. He will be a less annoying defender since champions like valkyrie can safely hit his block without worry of him evading. Also with all those debuffs, willpower is going to go crazy 🤣
    It isn't much, but it is better than what he is right now.

    That's pretty pathetic as a passing grade for reworks of champs that absolutely suck. The goal shouldn't be for him to still suck, but only oh-so slightly less and in a different way. It's a waste of time and what we've been told are very limited resources to do this bit of worthlessness.
    What is this bringing to the table? His evade is better because it won't screw you up when it unexpectedly triggers. That's definitely a thing. He can stack exceedingly weak taunts. They couldn't work in something of more value like a solid perk for each debuff or some novel application of those existing debuffs?
    I understand your frustration. It is annoying that his damage is lacking, but we also got to remember that he can still change.

    As far as what he is bringing to the table, he brings utility, that's about it. Easy to access utility that can help newer players deal with more annoying enemies if they don't have better options.
  • FrostGiantLordFrostGiantLord Member Posts: 2,097 ★★★★
    Spider Man will always be a meme tier IMO, regardless if he is buffed or not. I just don't care about the new buffed champs, except for maybe OG Black Panther. Hulk buff looks amazing, but we'll have to wait and see
  • DeaconDeacon Member Posts: 4,270 ★★★★★
    i thought he was getting a visual upgrade with his suit .. he looks exactly like he did before or am I misremembering what he looked like?
  • This content has been removed.
  • BigPoppaCBONEBigPoppaCBONE Member Posts: 2,413 ★★★★★
    Pikolu said:

    Pikolu said:

    Pikolu said:

    Squammo said:

    Current Spider-Man seems better than this. Values seem really weird also, so here is to hoping this is missing most of the final Kit.



    The data disagrees with your statement. This is the current spidey kit.
    Hahahaha he show the what on the beta

    But i think it is okay, not good but still okay
    It does have potential. The sig ability values seem very odd, a .06 second increase to taunt duration doesn't seem very helpful. But if you parry and MLM, that's 3 guaranteed taunts, you do that a few times, then you sp2 and you got like 3.5 seconds of big damage. It isn't much, but it is better than what he is right now.

    The things I like about what OP shows
    1. More damage and no random evades when trying to parry.
    2. More utility
    3. He will be a less annoying defender since champions like valkyrie can safely hit his block without worry of him evading. Also with all those debuffs, willpower is going to go crazy 🤣
    It isn't much, but it is better than what he is right now.

    That's pretty pathetic as a passing grade for reworks of champs that absolutely suck. The goal shouldn't be for him to still suck, but only oh-so slightly less and in a different way. It's a waste of time and what we've been told are very limited resources to do this bit of worthlessness.
    What is this bringing to the table? His evade is better because it won't screw you up when it unexpectedly triggers. That's definitely a thing. He can stack exceedingly weak taunts. They couldn't work in something of more value like a solid perk for each debuff or some novel application of those existing debuffs?
    I understand your frustration. It is annoying that his damage is lacking, but we also got to remember that he can still change.

    As far as what he is bringing to the table, he brings utility, that's about it. Easy to access utility that can help newer players deal with more annoying enemies if they don't have better options.
    I think it's likely that new players stuck with him at the start will drop Spider-Man like a hot deuce once they try champs that do more hit damage or have dot debuffs. This utility isn't valuable enough for early players if ease of use for the inexperienced was what they were going for. Annoying early enemies are more readily solved by damage, not niche debuffs and dinking around with stacking wimpy taunts or applying a row of debuffs that seemingly do nothing to help you win compared to a bleed or poison.
  • MaxtheSilentMaxtheSilent Member Posts: 835 ★★★★

    Pikolu said:

    Pikolu said:

    Pikolu said:

    Squammo said:

    Current Spider-Man seems better than this. Values seem really weird also, so here is to hoping this is missing most of the final Kit.



    The data disagrees with your statement. This is the current spidey kit.
    Hahahaha he show the what on the beta

    But i think it is okay, not good but still okay
    It does have potential. The sig ability values seem very odd, a .06 second increase to taunt duration doesn't seem very helpful. But if you parry and MLM, that's 3 guaranteed taunts, you do that a few times, then you sp2 and you got like 3.5 seconds of big damage. It isn't much, but it is better than what he is right now.

    The things I like about what OP shows
    1. More damage and no random evades when trying to parry.
    2. More utility
    3. He will be a less annoying defender since champions like valkyrie can safely hit his block without worry of him evading. Also with all those debuffs, willpower is going to go crazy 🤣
    It isn't much, but it is better than what he is right now.

    That's pretty pathetic as a passing grade for reworks of champs that absolutely suck. The goal shouldn't be for him to still suck, but only oh-so slightly less and in a different way. It's a waste of time and what we've been told are very limited resources to do this bit of worthlessness.
    What is this bringing to the table? His evade is better because it won't screw you up when it unexpectedly triggers. That's definitely a thing. He can stack exceedingly weak taunts. They couldn't work in something of more value like a solid perk for each debuff or some novel application of those existing debuffs?
    I understand your frustration. It is annoying that his damage is lacking, but we also got to remember that he can still change.

    As far as what he is bringing to the table, he brings utility, that's about it. Easy to access utility that can help newer players deal with more annoying enemies if they don't have better options.
    I think it's likely that new players stuck with him at the start will drop Spider-Man like a hot deuce once they try champs that do more hit damage or have dot debuffs. This utility isn't valuable enough for early players if ease of use for the inexperienced was what they were going for. Annoying early enemies are more readily solved by damage, not niche debuffs and dinking around with stacking wimpy taunts or applying a row of debuffs that seemingly do nothing to help you win compared to a bleed or poison.
    This is what I’m thinking. Not only will an early player have little need for this type of utility but they aren’t going to have an sig 200 champ either. I look at the Hulk beta and I can see someone using him to nuke Maestro or the Collector. I don’t see newer players investing in Spider-Man because they can get a slow or suppress combat power rate much more effectively and efficiently without the sig investment.
  • GinjabredMonstaGinjabredMonsta Member, Guardian Posts: 6,482 Guardian

    I thought of some ideas for how to fix the buff here, but overall I agree. We shouldn't have another Deadpool X-Force in the game, who's arguably worse than his original version by virtue of ease of use.

    I’ll have to disagree with you there, I actually like the Deadpool X buff and use him a lot more afterwards. He may not be the best but he sure is fun and can do some good dmg in certain situations. I prob won’t be using Spider-Man however
  • ItsClobberinTimeItsClobberinTime Member Posts: 5,444 ★★★★★

    Squammo said:








    IMO, it's not a bad kit for him. The evade percentage seems kinda low for a maxed out sig ability. I like the concept of the "webbing." It's also good to remember that since Spider-Man was one of the OG characters Kabam can't make his kit too complicated for the newbies
    That doesn't really make sense. It's not like drop rates for trash are higher and thereby they need to keep the trash simple because that's what newbies are more likely to pull. As far as I'm concerned, you're just as likely to pull a 2* Ultron, someone who's definitely not simple and you need to read all his abilities and use them properly to get his insane damage.
    Assuming that was the case though, why do they have to keep his damage this low? Hulk's new kit isn't looking that complicated yet his damage is going to be very very good. They can increase the damage and keep it simple.
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