What does Kabam have against mystics champions

BabyMiikeBabyMiike Member Posts: 1,184 ★★★★
in General Discussion
Why does Kabam keep adding new cosmic champs that are immune to nullify? Like the one of the whole points of class advantage it's to have a counter against that class! It's honestly getting ridiculous
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  • DemonzfyreDemonzfyre Member Posts: 22,024 ★★★★★
    Many mystics have stagger...
  • UnknownUnknown
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  • BabyMiikeBabyMiike Member Posts: 1,184 ★★★★
    Beewee said:

    You are supposed to have many mystic champions who can counter different cosmic champs. Not a one size fits all…

    But that's how it for almost every class
    Apoc(mutant)=skill
    Nimmy(Tech)=Muatant
    Kingpin(skill)=science
    Torch(science)=mystic
    Hercules/Galan(Cosmic)=Tech
  • BabyMiikeBabyMiike Member Posts: 1,184 ★★★★
    LeoZed said:

    In similar lines, what does Kabam have against Techs... they have released 2 magneto champs that destroy nearly the whole class....

    That's one champ that's should be that way how is Adam warlock immune to nullify 🤯
  • CaptainaidenCaptainaiden Member Posts: 1,081 ★★★★
    But adam warlock is not too hard to deal with
  • Vegeta9001Vegeta9001 Member Posts: 1,708 ★★★★★
    edited May 2023
    Axew said:

    By adding nullify/stagger immunes they made other mystic abilities like neutralize more valuable. Adam Warlock is also immune to neutralize, but his counter is soul barb, another underutilized mystic ability (I’m assuming more mystics beyond mondo will be getting it in the near future). For example, when Peni came out, she completely shut down true strike champions. Now we have numerous counters with power burn immunity or undermine like Galan, Hulkling, or Gorr.

    It keeps the game fresh by shaking up the meta, but is annoying because it renders some older champions useless against newer ones.

    Neutralise in and of itself is a mess. It checks for buffs before other things apply. Like a titania can get negative consequences from buffs she doesn't even have. If you dex with titania, Rintrah will gain power etc.

    Not to mention it doesn't (or didn't) used to count for certain nodes where you have to stop X amount of buffs can't remember the exact path but people with Tigra were really upset about it.
  • BitterSteelBitterSteel Member Posts: 9,264 ★★★★★
    Vegeta9001 said:

    Axew said:

    By adding nullify/stagger immunes they made other mystic abilities like neutralize more valuable. Adam Warlock is also immune to neutralize, but his counter is soul barb, another underutilized mystic ability (I’m assuming more mystics beyond mondo will be getting it in the near future). For example, when Peni came out, she completely shut down true strike champions. Now we have numerous counters with power burn immunity or undermine like Galan, Hulkling, or Gorr.

    It keeps the game fresh by shaking up the meta, but is annoying because it renders some older champions useless against newer ones.

    Neutralise in and of itself is a mess. It checks for buffs before other things apply. Like a titania can get negative consequences from buffs she doesn't even have. If you dex with titania, Rintrah will gain power etc.
    Neutralise prevents buffs from triggering. Titania needs a buff to be able to attempt to trigger in the first place for her to be immune to it. If the buff fails to trigger at all, how can it trigger her immunity?

    Think of it like this. You’re using Nick fury against colossus, you have 100% concussion on you and you hit colossus with a medium attack which would trigger a bleed. Does this cause an “immune” call out?

    It doesn’t, because the ability accuracy of your bleed is reduced to 0, so even though colossus *would* be immune to the bleed, the bleed never triggers, so how can he be immune to it.

    Now replace Nick with Titania, colossus with rintrah, bleed with dex buff and concussion with neutralise.

    You try to dex with Titania, but neutralise reduces your ability accuracy to 0. Is there an immune call out when Titania dexes? No, because the buff never attempts to trigger, because neutralise stops it.

    Because Rintrah has failed a buff, he then gains mystical charges and power gain.

    Buff immunity getting punished for attempting to gain buffs seems silly on the surface reading, but the second you think about what is really happening here, and in other parts of the game, it makes a ton of sense.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Member, Guardian Posts: 19,658 Guardian
    Vegeta9001 said:

    Axew said:

    By adding nullify/stagger immunes they made other mystic abilities like neutralize more valuable. Adam Warlock is also immune to neutralize, but his counter is soul barb, another underutilized mystic ability (I’m assuming more mystics beyond mondo will be getting it in the near future). For example, when Peni came out, she completely shut down true strike champions. Now we have numerous counters with power burn immunity or undermine like Galan, Hulkling, or Gorr.

    It keeps the game fresh by shaking up the meta, but is annoying because it renders some older champions useless against newer ones.

    Neutralise in and of itself is a mess. It checks for buffs before other things apply. Like a titania can get negative consequences from buffs she doesn't even have. If you dex with titania, Rintrah will gain power etc.
    This situation is only a “mess” to people who believe the game should work the way they want it to work rather than how it should logically work mechanically. For example, in the situation you describe Titania is immune to buffs. That means if a buff is triggered on her it will fail. That’s the definition of immunity: if something is directed at you, that thing will fail. Immunity does not, and would be nonsensical if it did, prevent things from even trying. Immune to bleed does not mean no one can trigger bleeds, it means triggered bleeds have no effect. Immunity to buffs means triggered buffs have no effect.

    Neutralize prevents buffs from being triggered. So logically, neutralize will prevent buffs from being triggered even in cases where the target of those buffs would have been immune to them. People who think this is a mess want these effects to work in the most beneficial way, not in the way that makes the most sense mechanically, in the most straight forward step by step manner. They appeal to higher purpose. This effect was put in the game to specifically benefit me in a specific way. But game mechanics are not put into games to serve higher purpose. They are put into the game to work in a specific self consistent way to allow designers to create content with them
  • Real_Madrid_76_2Real_Madrid_76_2 Member Posts: 3,560 ★★★★★
    Skill champs are supposed to counter science class and evade mechanics, quicksilver evade can't be prevented in any manner in my knowledge. What's the point of nerfing a class when the strength of the class is the ability itself before being nerfed
  • AverageDesiAverageDesi Member Posts: 5,260 ★★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    Vegeta9001 said:

    Axew said:

    By adding nullify/stagger immunes they made other mystic abilities like neutralize more valuable. Adam Warlock is also immune to neutralize, but his counter is soul barb, another underutilized mystic ability (I’m assuming more mystics beyond mondo will be getting it in the near future). For example, when Peni came out, she completely shut down true strike champions. Now we have numerous counters with power burn immunity or undermine like Galan, Hulkling, or Gorr.

    It keeps the game fresh by shaking up the meta, but is annoying because it renders some older champions useless against newer ones.

    Neutralise in and of itself is a mess. It checks for buffs before other things apply. Like a titania can get negative consequences from buffs she doesn't even have. If you dex with titania, Rintrah will gain power etc.
    This situation is only a “mess” to people who believe the game should work the way they want it to work rather than how it should logically work mechanically. For example, in the situation you describe Titania is immune to buffs. That means if a buff is triggered on her it will fail. That’s the definition of immunity: if something is directed at you, that thing will fail. Immunity does not, and would be nonsensical if it did, prevent things from even trying. Immune to bleed does not mean no one can trigger bleeds, it means triggered bleeds have no effect. Immunity to buffs means triggered buffs have no effect.

    Neutralize prevents buffs from being triggered. So logically, neutralize will prevent buffs from being triggered even in cases where the target of those buffs would have been immune to them. People who think this is a mess want these effects to work in the most beneficial way, not in the way that makes the most sense mechanically, in the most straight forward step by step manner. They appeal to higher purpose. This effect was put in the game to specifically benefit me in a specific way. But game mechanics are not put into games to serve higher purpose. They are put into the game to work in a specific self consistent way to allow designers to create content with them
    Back when this discussion came iirc there was an interaction where Redguardian would get both his shield charges as well as the incinerates from wiccans neutralise. How does that happen. Havn't tested it personally though
  • Colinwhitworth69Colinwhitworth69 Member Posts: 7,470 ★★★★★
    BabyMiike said:

    Why does Kabam keep adding new cosmic champs that are immune to nullify? Like the one of the whole points of class advantage it's to have a counter against that class! It's honestly getting ridiculous

    Challenge, I suppose, and to make new champs with neutralize and such more attractive.
  • Vegeta9001Vegeta9001 Member Posts: 1,708 ★★★★★
    edited May 2023
    DNA3000 said:

    Vegeta9001 said:

    Axew said:

    By adding nullify/stagger immunes they made other mystic abilities like neutralize more valuable. Adam Warlock is also immune to neutralize, but his counter is soul barb, another underutilized mystic ability (I’m assuming more mystics beyond mondo will be getting it in the near future). For example, when Peni came out, she completely shut down true strike champions. Now we have numerous counters with power burn immunity or undermine like Galan, Hulkling, or Gorr.

    It keeps the game fresh by shaking up the meta, but is annoying because it renders some older champions useless against newer ones.

    Neutralise in and of itself is a mess. It checks for buffs before other things apply. Like a titania can get negative consequences from buffs she doesn't even have. If you dex with titania, Rintrah will gain power etc.
    This situation is only a “mess” to people who believe the game should work the way they want it to work rather than how it should logically work mechanically. For example, in the situation you describe Titania is immune to buffs. That means if a buff is triggered on her it will fail. That’s the definition of immunity: if something is directed at you, that thing will fail. Immunity does not, and would be nonsensical if it did, prevent things from even trying. Immune to bleed does not mean no one can trigger bleeds, it means triggered bleeds have no effect. Immunity to buffs means triggered buffs have no effect.

    Neutralize prevents buffs from being triggered. So logically, neutralize will prevent buffs from being triggered even in cases where the target of those buffs would have been immune to them. People who think this is a mess want these effects to work in the most beneficial way, not in the way that makes the most sense mechanically, in the most straight forward step by step manner. They appeal to higher purpose. This effect was put in the game to specifically benefit me in a specific way. But game mechanics are not put into games to serve higher purpose. They are put into the game to work in a specific self consistent way to allow designers to create content with them
    That's stupid, that's like saying for those nodes when you inflict a bleed you get a fury, that you get a fury against bleed immunes. Because you'd have inflicted the bleed if they weren't immune.

    Also when it didn't count for preventing buffs on a path a few months ago it was working fine? But now it prevents buffs on buff immune it was also fine? 🤔
  • Musha27Musha27 Member Posts: 120 ★
    I'm glad someone spoke about this because most mystics have nullify, stagger or fateseal abilities. This thing where the cosmic class is now countering mystics doesn't make sense. I was okay about Galan because neutralize works on him but now Adam Warlock is immune to it. The mystics mechanic is centred around buff control so this soul barb ability really isn't compensating making most mystics unaffective with the new cosmic champions.
  • DemonzfyreDemonzfyre Member Posts: 22,024 ★★★★★
    Real_Madrid_76_2 said:

    Skill champs are supposed to counter science class and evade mechanics, quicksilver evade can't be prevented in any manner in my knowledge. What's the point of nerfing a class when the strength of the class is the ability itself before being nerfed

    No.
  • GogiGogi Member Posts: 476 ★★★
    BabyMiike said:

    Demonzfyre said:

    Many mystics have stagger...

    And many more mystics don't 💀
    That is the point, not all mystics should be same..
  • AxewAxew Member Posts: 620 ★★★★
    BitterSteel said:

    If you play into the exact same class dynamic over and over again for 8 years you get stagnation. There’s only so many interactions of Mystic Nullifies —> cosmic has buffs that you can create.

    Notice that Adam is countering nullify, fate seal, neutralise etc, but he is still weak to buff control in other areas, like duration manipulation, buff punishment etc. It’s the same way Galan is still weak to mystics, just not all mystics.

    This isn’t Adam fighting up against the class wheel, this is him iterating the class wheel. Creating a new challenge for mystics to overcome, whether that’s Mojo’s buff duration control, Chavez’ punishment, Claire’s buff immunity, soul barb, potency reduction etc.

    As pointed out before, it’s the same way Peni changed life for the cosmic class. It used to be “have buffs” and you counter techs. Whether that was specific buffs, like true strike for guardian/IMIW, or just unique ones for Warlock/Psychoman. But peni came along and cancelled out that, true strike didn’t work, and challenged you to have power burn immunity, or an autoblock counter outside of what we had before - unblockable, undermine etc. It’s why Hulkling, Galan and Gorr all came out after, to counter Peni.

    Peni was a great thing for the cosmic/tech relationship, and a great example of how changing meta dynamics is a good thing. Now the cosmic requirement isn't just have buffs, but also watch out for power burn/drain. And future ant man took that a little further with pierce being a counter to him, and also Peni.

    The same is happening to mystic, when we had neutralise added, that was an addition to the class dynamic. It changed how mystics countered cosmics in a pro-attacker way. But now with 3 strong neutralisers and purgatory, cosmic needed something to bite back, or the class dynamic stays weighted on the attacker. We can’t just have it one way where our class attackers (mystics) are always easily countering defenders (cosmics) or it gets stale and boring. New cosmic defender added? Can I nullify? Great, done.

    We have a few options to counter Adam already, and more will be added in the future. (I’m also ignoring the fact that Adam isn’t particularly hard to fight, he can be annoying but he’s not Peni levels when she was added).

    “Like the one of the whole points of class advantage it's to have a counter against that class”
    Yes, but it’s not the point of class advantage to completely counter everything the other class can do, and never let them have any sort of counter, or challenge them to grow as a class whatsoever. Nullify, stagger, fateseal, neutralise are not the only ways mystics punish buffs. There are many more ways, and many more to come in the future.

    TL:DR Class relationship is important to iterate, Adam isn’t countering “the mystic class” he’s countering an aspect of the mystic class, and allowing for room for growth in the dynamic.

    Long time no see! Great to have you back.

    Also, good explanation. It’s just like the MCOC developers stated in the livestream, they introduce difficult defenders with counters planned to release in the near future. For now we’ll have to deal with Adam using what we have: mordo, mojo, Clair, abs man, etc.

    I wouldn’t be surprised if we get 2 or 3 soul barb champions who counter his kit throughout the rest of 2023/early 2024.
  • BabyMiikeBabyMiike Member Posts: 1,184 ★★★★
    Magrailothos said:

    BabyMiike said:

    Beewee said:

    You are supposed to have many mystic champions who can counter different cosmic champs. Not a one size fits all…

    But that's how it for almost every class
    Apoc(mutant)=skill
    Nimmy(Tech)=Mutant
    Kingpin(skill)=science
    Torch(science)=mystic
    Hercules/Galan(Cosmic)=Tech
    There are also outliers in every class, which encourage developing a broader roster.

    Apoc can certainly beat Kingpin, but it gets a bit uphill in longer matches (KP can't exchange his eight Rage debuffs for Overpower. So he just goes to nine Rage... Ten Rage... And gets more and more Attack+Combat Power as he stacks them up). You're better off using Bishop, who can Parry Kingpin to death without even landing a hit.

    Nimrod can beat Bishop, but he's going to take serious Feedback damage doing it. You're better off using options like War Machine, Vulture or Punisher-2099

    Torch can beat Absorbing Man and Mephisto but has to play it right and use his Prefight on the latter. Void and Quake work beautifully, and can both win without landing a hit.

    Galan don't have any particular advantage against most non-armour champs like Rocket, Yondu, Star Lord. One of my favourite options for dealing with him on defense is with Punisher-2099.

    Kingpin manages debuffs incredibly well, but there are much better Skill options if you're fighting Electro or MODOK.

    -----

    Personally, I'm not particularly bothered about Adam Warlock having access to immunity to Nullify, Neutralise and so on. Mordo, Chavez, Loki, Mojo and Dragon Man will get around that just fine, since they don't rely on removing or preventing buffs.

    What i really don't like is the highly specific vulnerability to something (Soul Barb) that only one champion in the game does. Designing a champion with such a specific counter doesn't really seem healthy for game balance, in a game where you acquire champions (largely) randomly.

    I'm sure there'll be a new champion coming in the next few months who has Soul Barb, but that's not really the best solution for most of us.
    KP counters modok and electro beautifuly you should have said Mr negative and Void
  • World EaterWorld Eater Member Posts: 3,748 ★★★★★
    Ercarret said:

    I really used to loathe the Mystic class specifically because they were all so samey. They all nullified buffs. They all stole power. They all did the same thing, over and over and over again. The only Mystic champions I really liked was Tigra and Mojo since they interacted with buffs in two completely different ways compared to the rest of the class. Other than them, I didn't see why I would rank up any other Mystic champion than Doom.

    However, lately things have begun to change. We've seen cosmic champions be immune to nullify, which means that other ways to deal with their buffs are necessary. Tigra and Mojo are still viable options, but we've gotten more options as well. I enjoy Rintrah, Absorbing Man and Wiccan because they interact with buffs in a different way.

    And now we have another evolution within the Cosmic class. I'm all for that as long as it leads to another evolution within the Mystic class as well. I think it will, and when that happens, it's going to be really fun.

    The Mystic class really needed these changes in order to be revitalised.

    No interest in Claire Voyant? Her buff immunity debuff is a pretty useful and unique ability.
  • AverageDesiAverageDesi Member Posts: 5,260 ★★★★★
    Vegeta9001 said:

    DNA3000 said:

    Vegeta9001 said:

    Axew said:

    By adding nullify/stagger immunes they made other mystic abilities like neutralize more valuable. Adam Warlock is also immune to neutralize, but his counter is soul barb, another underutilized mystic ability (I’m assuming more mystics beyond mondo will be getting it in the near future). For example, when Peni came out, she completely shut down true strike champions. Now we have numerous counters with power burn immunity or undermine like Galan, Hulkling, or Gorr.

    It keeps the game fresh by shaking up the meta, but is annoying because it renders some older champions useless against newer ones.

    Neutralise in and of itself is a mess. It checks for buffs before other things apply. Like a titania can get negative consequences from buffs she doesn't even have. If you dex with titania, Rintrah will gain power etc.
    This situation is only a “mess” to people who believe the game should work the way they want it to work rather than how it should logically work mechanically. For example, in the situation you describe Titania is immune to buffs. That means if a buff is triggered on her it will fail. That’s the definition of immunity: if something is directed at you, that thing will fail. Immunity does not, and would be nonsensical if it did, prevent things from even trying. Immune to bleed does not mean no one can trigger bleeds, it means triggered bleeds have no effect. Immunity to buffs means triggered buffs have no effect.

    Neutralize prevents buffs from being triggered. So logically, neutralize will prevent buffs from being triggered even in cases where the target of those buffs would have been immune to them. People who think this is a mess want these effects to work in the most beneficial way, not in the way that makes the most sense mechanically, in the most straight forward step by step manner. They appeal to higher purpose. This effect was put in the game to specifically benefit me in a specific way. But game mechanics are not put into games to serve higher purpose. They are put into the game to work in a specific self consistent way to allow designers to create content with them
    That's stupid, that's like saying for those nodes when you inflict a bleed you get a fury, that you get a fury against bleed immunes. Because you'd have inflicted the bleed if they weren't immune.

    Also when it didn't count for preventing buffs on a path a few months ago it was working fine? But now it prevents buffs on buff immune it was also fine? 🤔
    If the node said, " gain a fury when applying a bleed or would have applied a bleed" the. Yes you would gr the fury. Similar to Peni Parker who power drains Magento without autoblocking

    Your second paragraph needs more context. If the champion has any sort of increased ability accuracy then neutralise will not always suffice
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