f2p players deserves better

KTPrimal

DNA3000 said:

KTPrimal said:

DNA3000 said:

KTPrimal said:

BringPopcorn said:

AmaadAkira said:

BringPopcorn said:

AmaadAkira said:

DNA3000 said:

Blackjack555yy said:

2 If an f2p player grinded the game for longer than a whale then yeah, they deserve more

All you need to do is find a game developer anywhere in the world that agrees with you and isn't unable to code because they are starving to death, and you'll be set.

Why do some people feel the need to gaslight others into believing all game developers were broke pre-2010? Before microtransactions, the gaming industry was booming, what are you even talking about? I guess the people who made Elden Ring, Baldur's gate, No man's sky etc. are all working out of a homeless shelter.

Yes true, also a lot of them went out of business..

And how many mobile games that have MTX are going out of business every day by releasing a trashy game and selling their 'features'? So your point is?

Why are you asking me for my point when I am questioning yours in the first place?.
Since they are succesful they have to be charitable? They have to give more free stuff?
They don't work from a homeless shelter; but they dont have a big bowl of f2p sweat for breakfast either do they?..
Its the way the real world works.
Also yes a lot of trashy games go out of business, how many mobile games do you know that have been running for 8 years?

There are a lot actually.

If you count them on your fingers, there's a lot. But in terms of percentages, most games vanish less than a year after release, in terms of losing all their paying customers and becoming unsupported. There are statistics floating around on the internet that i recall where among all paying apps (which include apps that are not games) more than 95% of all apps lose essentially all their paying customers within 90 days of release.

Most games fail, and fail quickly. Surviving for over eight years puts MCOC in the top one percent of the top one percent of the top one percent of games. It used to be a common past time on the forums to compare MCOC to other games. This game has better offers. That game has better graphics. Those games have better mechanics. Most of those games no longer exist. I specifically remember all those people who used to say that the only reason MCOC survives is because of the Marvel license: any Marvel game would last because it would have a guaranteed market. That statement certainly aged well.

You're right. That still does not mean that mcoc is the only mobile game that has been supported for as long as it has been. Even in the past when the game was around the 4 year mark, and the same was being said, there are plenty new mobile games that have reached their 5 year mark. Mobile games have been huge over the last decade and it changed the industry. So much so AAA games have adopted a version of the F2P/MTX model.

I still play Boom Beach (2013) and Clash of Clans is still going, even though I don't play that one any more. But they are the rare exceptions. MCOC is not the only mobile game that has lasted as long as it has, but the fact that it is in the vanishingly small minority, regardless of how many other survivors there are as well, points to the extreme risks involved and how narrowly they have threaded the needle so far. There is no way to know which design decisions Kabam has made over the years that were the critical ones, but we can say with reasonable certainty that had they consistently made other decisions, like say the popular ones on the forums, they would not likely be around any more. And personally, I think their monetization model should get most of the credit. The game play is not terribly unique, the Marvel license as previously mentioned didn't keep many other contemporary games afloat, and other factors like game complexity and skill level have varied wildly over time. But in spite of all the complaints over the years, the monetization strategy for MCOC has been pretty good. There are no substantive paywalls. The ability to earn premium currency through gameplay is extraordinary among F2P games. Progress is not throttled harshly (cf: Thronebreaker in a week videos). I think almost every bad thing people complain about with regard to the monetization system is actually a good thing in disguise. For example, the low value of most cash offers is seen as a bad thing, but it prevents runaway power inflation at the top. Spenders get big advantages here as elsewhere, but here those advantages are limited by the value of most cash offers. In effect, Kabam is giving spenders the minimum necessary to keep them spending, which is extremely generous behavior towards the F2P playerbase. They just don't get credit for it most of the time.

Their success is due to something, and that something has to be a something they do differently from their competition. It isn't the Marvel license, it isn't game addiction, it certainly isn't their rock solid game platform. I believe it is the very careful economy balance between the free to play players and the spenders.

Hoping for another 10 years. Despite the criticisms, and questionable decisions, mcoc is a beast.

AmaadAkira

Demonzfyre said:

AmaadAkira said:

Demonzfyre said:

AmaadAkira said:

Stature said:

AmaadAkira said:

DNA3000 said:

Blackjack555yy said:

2 If an f2p player grinded the game for longer than a whale then yeah, they deserve more

All you need to do is find a game developer anywhere in the world that agrees with you and isn't unable to code because they are starving to death, and you'll be set.

Why do some people feel the need to gaslight others into believing all game developers were broke pre-2010? Before microtransactions, the gaming industry was booming, what are you even talking about? I guess the people who made Elden Ring, Baldur's gate, No man's sky etc. are all working out of a homeless shelter.

Those are not free to play games. Every player paid for them. You cannot have it both ways - F2P option and no microtransactions. Overall, MCOC is extremely F2P friendly, there is almost nothing of significance which is behind a paywall and every event has at least some options for F2P players. Only thing that separates F2P and spenders in the game is time. Given how much of the game is solo content, most F2P players have a very good game experience.

Correct, they aren't F2P games. But MCOC has also made a ton more money than many of those games, so this point is moot. Even if everyone was instead charged a $40 price to play MCOC, the game wouldn't have made NEARLY as much money as they do today. So what are you arguing here? The constant development cost isn't even an excuse when games like No Man's Sky exist. This is PURELY about increasing profit margins. Let's stop acting like these developers will be living out of cardboard boxes if they didn't exploit their customers with loot boxes. It's disgusting to try to justify it.

Explain to me how they exploit customers with loot boxes.

While MCOC makes money, they aren't swimming in cash at their headquarters. They're owned by Netmarble. Netmarble funds MCOC.

If you make a purchase, the devs aren't putting that directly in their pockets.

I'm not saying 'evil developers'. I also acknowledge there are people above them likely forcing their hands with profit margins as an excuse.

If we can all acknowledge that, how about looking up when finding people to blame rather than looking down at the consumer?

KØNG said:

AmaadAkira said:

Stature said:

AmaadAkira said:

DNA3000 said:

Blackjack555yy said:

2 If an f2p player grinded the game for longer than a whale then yeah, they deserve more

All you need to do is find a game developer anywhere in the world that agrees with you and isn't unable to code because they are starving to death, and you'll be set.

Why do some people feel the need to gaslight others into believing all game developers were broke pre-2010? Before microtransactions, the gaming industry was booming, what are you even talking about? I guess the people who made Elden Ring, Baldur's gate, No man's sky etc. are all working out of a homeless shelter.

Those are not free to play games. Every player paid for them. You cannot have it both ways - F2P option and no microtransactions. Overall, MCOC is extremely F2P friendly, there is almost nothing of significance which is behind a paywall and every event has at least some options for F2P players. Only thing that separates F2P and spenders in the game is time. Given how much of the game is solo content, most F2P players have a very good game experience.

Correct, they aren't F2P games. But MCOC has also made a ton more money than many of those games, so this point is moot. Even if everyone was instead charged a $40 price to play MCOC, the game wouldn't have made NEARLY as much money as it does today. So what are you arguing here? The constant development cost isn't even an excuse when games like No Man's Sky exist. This is PURELY about increasing profit margins. Let's stop acting like these developers will be living out of cardboard boxes if they didn't exploit their customers with loot boxes. It's disgusting to try to justify it.

Btw, this isn't about the F2P vs P2W model, or about the Cap event. It was in response to the other commenter who unironically believes without MTX, game developers would be starving to death.

You make it sound like trying to increase profit is an evil corporation motive. I think most businesses do that. And still, it’s on the consumer’s end to bite. It’s in no way their fault if people do.

Loot boxes are a science, and trigger the same dopamine mechanics as gambling does. Blaming consumers for succumbing to gambling mechanics in games that are aimed at kids too is hella silly, ngl. Let's pretend you didn't say that.

You didn't answer the question. How are loot boxes an exploit?

Is a Kabam developer sitting next you holding a gun to you saying you have to buy things?

People aren't addicted to the loot boxes, people are addicted to taking the easy way which is to buy their way though content and advance quicker.

You're also wrong in blaming the developers. They're paid a salary. A dev could care less what microtransactions are in the game. Offers and what not are from the economy teams and part of the U.I.

Again, you're not be forced by anyone to buy anything. It's your choice. These are businesses. Without MTXs it's unlikely this game would still be around. Ads are the only other way to generate revenue.

You're upset because companies want to make money and you think the consumer has no fault in the choices they make.

I (and many others) would argue lootboxes by their very nature are exploitation due to the fact they feed off basic human instincts to get cash from consumers. Sure, no one is pointing a gun at them, but this is going into the determinism/free will debate, and you could (with heavy evidence) argue some individuals are innately more prone to falling victim to such tactics due to the dopamine rush they gain from it. And companies KNOW this, let's not shy away from that fact. Hence they're employed so widely.

But ignoring all of that, lootboxes, especially in the earlier days of MCOC, did NOT have their %'s displayed to the public, again, making them a form of exploitation via deception and misleading. They were only added because of LAW, not because game companies felt a moral obligation here. Every few months or so, even nowadays, the %'s are wrong/are irregular with what is expected by most players, also making them another form of deception. Sure, players are sometimes refunded but it doesn't change that fact. Anyway, that's another rabbit hole to go into, and not really a hill I care to die on.

Finally, please don't twist my words. I've spent a fair share on this game, far more than any single game I've ever purchased with an upfront cost in my history. I don't expect extra luxuries, nor do most F2P players.

klobberintyme

DNA3000 said:

AmaadAkira said:

DNA3000 said:

Blackjack555yy said:

2 If an f2p player grinded the game for longer than a whale then yeah, they deserve more

All you need to do is find a game developer anywhere in the world that agrees with you and isn't unable to code because they are starving to death, and you'll be set.

Why do some people feel the need to gaslight others into believing all game developers were broke pre-2010? Before microtransactions, the gaming industry was booming, what are you even talking about? I guess the people who made Elden Ring, Baldur's gate, No man's sky etc. are all working out of a homeless shelter.

And the day the Kabam devs take their eyes off the ball and decide to become humanitarians, Disney will take the Marvel license away and give it to someone else with more business sense. And they can't all pay the rent making Flappy Bird clones in Godot.

Whew. Lots o words.

I can say this with authority:
Since Perlmutter got the boot and Marvel Entertainment (not to be confused with Marvel Studios, an entity unto itself) got shunted to mickey's cloakroom and carved up into comics, games and web content, Disney is looking to cut costs (ABC anyone?), share costs (ESPN anyone?) and, relevant to this space, re-evaluate revenue streams. All pre-existing Marvel licenses prior to March 2023 were cut through Marvel Entertainment, which is dead. Disney is actively reviewing all these and, as renewal windows come up, are going to (spoiler) try to squeeze more cash from everyone. This includes NetBam.

All I'm saying is, you can make lots of money, but only if it makes sense. Don't be surprised if things go south for reasons that have nothing to do with what anyone here is yelling at each other about.


Carry on.

GroundedWisdom

AmaadAkira said:

Demonzfyre said:

AmaadAkira said:

Demonzfyre said:

AmaadAkira said:

Stature said:

AmaadAkira said:

DNA3000 said:

Blackjack555yy said:

2 If an f2p player grinded the game for longer than a whale then yeah, they deserve more

All you need to do is find a game developer anywhere in the world that agrees with you and isn't unable to code because they are starving to death, and you'll be set.

Why do some people feel the need to gaslight others into believing all game developers were broke pre-2010? Before microtransactions, the gaming industry was booming, what are you even talking about? I guess the people who made Elden Ring, Baldur's gate, No man's sky etc. are all working out of a homeless shelter.

Those are not free to play games. Every player paid for them. You cannot have it both ways - F2P option and no microtransactions. Overall, MCOC is extremely F2P friendly, there is almost nothing of significance which is behind a paywall and every event has at least some options for F2P players. Only thing that separates F2P and spenders in the game is time. Given how much of the game is solo content, most F2P players have a very good game experience.

Correct, they aren't F2P games. But MCOC has also made a ton more money than many of those games, so this point is moot. Even if everyone was instead charged a $40 price to play MCOC, the game wouldn't have made NEARLY as much money as they do today. So what are you arguing here? The constant development cost isn't even an excuse when games like No Man's Sky exist. This is PURELY about increasing profit margins. Let's stop acting like these developers will be living out of cardboard boxes if they didn't exploit their customers with loot boxes. It's disgusting to try to justify it.

Explain to me how they exploit customers with loot boxes.

While MCOC makes money, they aren't swimming in cash at their headquarters. They're owned by Netmarble. Netmarble funds MCOC.

If you make a purchase, the devs aren't putting that directly in their pockets.

I'm not saying 'evil developers'. I also acknowledge there are people above them likely forcing their hands with profit margins as an excuse.

If we can all acknowledge that, how about looking up when finding people to blame rather than looking down at the consumer?

KØNG said:

AmaadAkira said:

Stature said:

AmaadAkira said:

DNA3000 said:

Blackjack555yy said:

2 If an f2p player grinded the game for longer than a whale then yeah, they deserve more

All you need to do is find a game developer anywhere in the world that agrees with you and isn't unable to code because they are starving to death, and you'll be set.

Why do some people feel the need to gaslight others into believing all game developers were broke pre-2010? Before microtransactions, the gaming industry was booming, what are you even talking about? I guess the people who made Elden Ring, Baldur's gate, No man's sky etc. are all working out of a homeless shelter.

Those are not free to play games. Every player paid for them. You cannot have it both ways - F2P option and no microtransactions. Overall, MCOC is extremely F2P friendly, there is almost nothing of significance which is behind a paywall and every event has at least some options for F2P players. Only thing that separates F2P and spenders in the game is time. Given how much of the game is solo content, most F2P players have a very good game experience.

Correct, they aren't F2P games. But MCOC has also made a ton more money than many of those games, so this point is moot. Even if everyone was instead charged a $40 price to play MCOC, the game wouldn't have made NEARLY as much money as it does today. So what are you arguing here? The constant development cost isn't even an excuse when games like No Man's Sky exist. This is PURELY about increasing profit margins. Let's stop acting like these developers will be living out of cardboard boxes if they didn't exploit their customers with loot boxes. It's disgusting to try to justify it.

Btw, this isn't about the F2P vs P2W model, or about the Cap event. It was in response to the other commenter who unironically believes without MTX, game developers would be starving to death.

You make it sound like trying to increase profit is an evil corporation motive. I think most businesses do that. And still, it’s on the consumer’s end to bite. It’s in no way their fault if people do.

Loot boxes are a science, and trigger the same dopamine mechanics as gambling does. Blaming consumers for succumbing to gambling mechanics in games that are aimed at kids too is hella silly, ngl. Let's pretend you didn't say that.

You didn't answer the question. How are loot boxes an exploit?

Is a Kabam developer sitting next you holding a gun to you saying you have to buy things?

People aren't addicted to the loot boxes, people are addicted to taking the easy way which is to buy their way though content and advance quicker.

You're also wrong in blaming the developers. They're paid a salary. A dev could care less what microtransactions are in the game. Offers and what not are from the economy teams and part of the U.I.

Again, you're not be forced by anyone to buy anything. It's your choice. These are businesses. Without MTXs it's unlikely this game would still be around. Ads are the only other way to generate revenue.

You're upset because companies want to make money and you think the consumer has no fault in the choices they make.

I (and many others) would argue lootboxes by their very nature are exploitation due to the fact they feed off basic human instincts to get cash from consumers. Sure, no one is pointing a gun at them, but this is going into the determinism/free will debate, and you could (with heavy evidence) argue some individuals are innately more prone to falling victim to such tactics due to the dopamine rush they gain from it. And companies KNOW this, let's not shy away from that fact. Hence they're employed so widely.

But ignoring all of that, lootboxes, especially in the earlier days of MCOC, did NOT have their %'s displayed to the public, again, making them a form of exploitation via deception and misleading. They were only added because of LAW, not because game companies felt a moral obligation here. Every few months or so, even nowadays, the %'s are wrong/are irregular with what is expected by most players, also making them another form of deception. Sure, players are sometimes refunded but it doesn't change that fact. Anyway, that's another rabbit hole to go into, and not really a hill I care to die on.

Finally, please don't twist my words. I've spent a fair share on this game, far more than any single game I've ever purchased with an upfront cost in my history. I don't expect extra luxuries, nor do most F2P players.

This I'm going to have to interject on.
It's marketing. It's not a diabolical ploy to prey on the weak.
Of course there are people who have a tendency towards becoming addicted. That's not the responsibility of the purveyor, and that doesn't mean that those people are the target customer.
Alcohol has been sold for years, and people still attend AA. Here in Canada, marijuana is legalized, and people still attend NA. Believe me, I'm in recovery and have been for almost 13 years. I've had this discussion with my supports, and my triggers, my addiction, my disease, are not the responsibility of those places that provide them.
As much as I feel uncomfortable with the amount things are marketed, I can't expect everyone else to share the same journey. Many people consume responsibly. I can't, so I don't. That doesn't mean the companies selling them are evil. It just means I have an illness others don't.
The same applies to gambling addictions. Companies market to entice people to buy their products. That's just business. They're not enticing people so they can go broke, lose family, lose homes, lose jobs, all the things that come from being sick.
As for law, there is no such law that requires Kabam to post the Drop Rates. Their partners decided to make it a requirement, and Kabam adhered to their agreement. That's just good relations. Now, had they posted incorrectly, that would be illegal, sure. No law was forcing them to do so. They could have just as easily chosen not to, but that would have damaged their relationship with Apple and Google.
You may have personal feelings on loot boxes, but you can't claim their goal is to hook people. One does not make an addict. An addict is an addict.