incompetent support. Sandman bug (despair mastery and global AW tactic)

HeilkamHeilkam Member Posts: 17
1st I sent a ticket to support about that sandman’s debuffs from sp2 doesn’t work with despair mastery (3/3 points). It’s like 30+ debuffs but defender still has some healing from will power.


I received an answer that despair mastery works only for UNIQUE debuffs and not for same. Lol what a joke. I would believe to this answer if I wouldn’t play this game for 6 years and can’t read the description of despair mastery where we clearly see “debuff reduce heal 15% EACH”


But ok let’s try it with simple example. Take Havok, terrax etc any champ with same type of debuff which u can stack on defender.
And omg EACH stack of plasma debuff (havok) as well EACH stack armour break debuff (terrax) reducing defender’s healing.
So who is wrong?



There we can see even how reducing works with 1st and 2nd SAME debuffs on 1 screen

And 3rd and 4th debuffs. Green numbers just drops how it always was.



2nd Same problem with a AW attack tactic (while playing SandMan). His debuffs from sp2 doesn’t count for AW tactic.
Support member again tell me some story about UNIQUE debuffs reduce dmg from DOT debuffs. But again if we will took a look into a description of AW tactic we can’t find any single word “UNIQUE”.


There is screen of e-mail answer from support.


There is problem with node 31 in AW but anyway I know that kabam wouldn’t fix it anyway.
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Comments

  • ЧиккиниЧиккини Member Posts: 1
    This guy is cool.
  • Wolf5367Wolf5367 Member Posts: 6
    There is an impression that craftsmanship functions in a very different way
    Not just this one, but many others.
    And all we hear are trite promises that we're working on a new mastery.

    When will it be fixed?
  • MaratoxMaratox Member Posts: 1,623 ★★★★★
    There’s a mastery, I believe called recovery, that increases healing by a certain percentage. Despair cannot reduce that so in AW and BGs some healing will still occur on the defender no matter how many debuffs you put on them
  • Khellendros138Khellendros138 Member Posts: 586 ★★★
    How does the interaction between recovery and despair work? I'd be curious for some input on that because I don't really understand.

    Despair definitely is not based on unique debuffs, just number of debuffs as mentioned above. So if you have 30 debuffs, each reducing your healing by 5%, how can you still be recovering health?

    I have also encountered this as well and wondered the same.
  • Wolf5367Wolf5367 Member Posts: 6
    Maratox said:

    There’s a mastery, I believe called recovery, that increases healing by a certain percentage. Despair cannot reduce that so in AW and BGs some healing will still occur on the defender no matter how many debuffs you put on them

    In addition to willpower, there's salve and recovery. None of them say they can't be lowered.
    And they don't usually recover the same numbers.
    This healing is clearly coming from willpower.
  • HeilkamHeilkam Member Posts: 17
    Maratox said:

    There’s a mastery, I believe called recovery, that increases healing by a certain percentage. Despair cannot reduce that so in AW and BGs some healing will still occur on the defender no matter how many debuffs you put on them

    No need to invent something of your own.
    Healing is healing. Reducing is reducing.
    Of course recovery increases some % of regened HP. But despair mastery still work it’s just need few more debuffs to stop regen.
    It’s simple math from 5 degree of school.
    30*15%= 450% reduction of healing it’s would be reversing, but game doesn’t work like this so it’s just “100%” reduction to prevent healing. Usually healing stopping and u can watch red “-1” instead of green +something

  • MaratoxMaratox Member Posts: 1,623 ★★★★★
    Heilkam said:

    Maratox said:

    There’s a mastery, I believe called recovery, that increases healing by a certain percentage. Despair cannot reduce that so in AW and BGs some healing will still occur on the defender no matter how many debuffs you put on them

    No need to invent something of your own.
    Healing is healing. Reducing is reducing.
    Of course recovery increases some % of regened HP. But despair mastery still work it’s just need few more debuffs to stop regen.
    It’s simple math from 5 degree of school.
    30*15%= 450% reduction of healing it’s would be reversing, but game doesn’t work like this so it’s just “100%” reduction to prevent healing. Usually healing stopping and u can watch red “-1” instead of green +something

    I’m not inventing something of my own. It’s fact. Recovery boosts the healing from willpower by a certain percentage. Despair only reduces the base amount of willpower. So if they have 15% additional willpower healing from recovery, at 30 or 100 debuffs the defender will recover that extra 15% health all the time.
  • SecondSkrillerSecondSkriller Member Posts: 1,319 ★★★★★
    Maratox said:

    Heilkam said:

    Maratox said:

    There’s a mastery, I believe called recovery, that increases healing by a certain percentage. Despair cannot reduce that so in AW and BGs some healing will still occur on the defender no matter how many debuffs you put on them

    No need to invent something of your own.
    Healing is healing. Reducing is reducing.
    Of course recovery increases some % of regened HP. But despair mastery still work it’s just need few more debuffs to stop regen.
    It’s simple math from 5 degree of school.
    30*15%= 450% reduction of healing it’s would be reversing, but game doesn’t work like this so it’s just “100%” reduction to prevent healing. Usually healing stopping and u can watch red “-1” instead of green +something

    I’m not inventing something of my own. It’s fact. Recovery boosts the healing from willpower by a certain percentage. Despair only reduces the base amount of willpower. So if they have 15% additional willpower healing from recovery, at 30 or 100 debuffs the defender will recover that extra 15% health all the time.
    That is the most stupid way this could ever work. If each debuff reduces regen by a percent, then why wouldn’t it be possible to shut it down when that percent goes higher than the overall potency of say 115%? No explanation makes sense.
  • MaratoxMaratox Member Posts: 1,623 ★★★★★

    Maratox said:

    Heilkam said:

    Maratox said:

    There’s a mastery, I believe called recovery, that increases healing by a certain percentage. Despair cannot reduce that so in AW and BGs some healing will still occur on the defender no matter how many debuffs you put on them

    No need to invent something of your own.
    Healing is healing. Reducing is reducing.
    Of course recovery increases some % of regened HP. But despair mastery still work it’s just need few more debuffs to stop regen.
    It’s simple math from 5 degree of school.
    30*15%= 450% reduction of healing it’s would be reversing, but game doesn’t work like this so it’s just “100%” reduction to prevent healing. Usually healing stopping and u can watch red “-1” instead of green +something

    I’m not inventing something of my own. It’s fact. Recovery boosts the healing from willpower by a certain percentage. Despair only reduces the base amount of willpower. So if they have 15% additional willpower healing from recovery, at 30 or 100 debuffs the defender will recover that extra 15% health all the time.
    That is the most stupid way this could ever work. If each debuff reduces regen by a percent, then why wouldn’t it be possible to shut it down when that percent goes higher than the overall potency of say 115%? No explanation makes sense.
    The explanation is that’s how Kabam decided to code it. It probably has to do with how calculations are done on the back end of the server.
  • Wolf5367Wolf5367 Member Posts: 6
    Maratox said:

    Maratox said:

    Heilkam said:

    Maratox said:

    There’s a mastery, I believe called recovery, that increases healing by a certain percentage. Despair cannot reduce that so in AW and BGs some healing will still occur on the defender no matter how many debuffs you put on them

    No need to invent something of your own.
    Healing is healing. Reducing is reducing.
    Of course recovery increases some % of regened HP. But despair mastery still work it’s just need few more debuffs to stop regen.
    It’s simple math from 5 degree of school.
    30*15%= 450% reduction of healing it’s would be reversing, but game doesn’t work like this so it’s just “100%” reduction to prevent healing. Usually healing stopping and u can watch red “-1” instead of green +something

    I’m not inventing something of my own. It’s fact. Recovery boosts the healing from willpower by a certain percentage. Despair only reduces the base amount of willpower. So if they have 15% additional willpower healing from recovery, at 30 or 100 debuffs the defender will recover that extra 15% health all the time.
    That is the most stupid way this could ever work. If each debuff reduces regen by a percent, then why wouldn’t it be possible to shut it down when that percent goes higher than the overall potency of say 115%? No explanation makes sense.
    The explanation is that’s how Kabam decided to code it. It probably has to do with how calculations are done on the back end of the server.
    Well, without official confirmation from Kabam, we won't know anything for sure.
    We have the fact that regeneration is decreasing, but it's too little.
    And support says that we need unique ones, which is crazy.
  • Drago_von_DragoDrago_von_Drago Member Posts: 968 ★★★★
    This kind of thing is why nobody bothers with support for in-game issues.

    “We can’t acknowledge we were wrong and will no longer talk to you” is not good customer service. Hopefully the team can use this as a training example of how not to respond.

    Torch is recommended for regen all the time with despair because it’s easy to stack the incinerate debuffs. That’s been a thing forever so for support to make the statement they did is very disappointing.

    For this topic, it would be helpful for the game team to clarify if there is some protected percentage of healing that despair can’t reduce. What maratox said makes sense for why it’s happening but doesn’t make sense logically or functionally for players so clarification and a fix (if warranted) would be nice. Seems like despair should be able to shut it down fully at some point. If that’s impossible we should know that.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Member, Guardian Posts: 19,786 Guardian
    My recollection is that it isn't that recovery is immune to Despair, but rather that the Despair mastery healing reduction is capped to -100%. This is not documented in-game, but I recall some testing in the past either suggesting or demonstrating the cap. So if you have higher than 100% (base) recovery, Despair cannot lower your recovery to zero.

    I was not involved in that testing, so I don't have the data to go back to for confirmation. But I think the idea was that Despair was supposed to slow healing but not intended to reverse healing and cause, thus the -100% cap.
  • HeilkamHeilkam Member Posts: 17
    Despair mastery by no spoken rules reduce healing by 100%.
    Recovery mastery INCREASE any health recovered by 15%.
    With despair mastery you just shutting down healing and recovery mastery just can’t recover 15% from 0 health recovered cuz of despair.
    Cuz 15% of 0 is 0
  • HeilkamHeilkam Member Posts: 17
    edited November 2023
    But still one of the main point of this topic — incompetent support member. I'm afraid to think how this dude “helps” others players.

    And u miss one more statement from that “support” member guy. He says That global AW attack tactic works only for UNIQUE debuffs what is totally bllsht. Cuz any person who played at least two times BG or AW knows that same type of debuffs give u a resistance from DOT debuffs
  • RuwqiersaRuwqiersa Member Posts: 714 ★★★
    Wait what? They straight up dont know how the game works? Despair always worked with same debuffs. Same for the decay tactic. Thats actually mad
  • Wolf5367Wolf5367 Member Posts: 6

    This kind of thing is why nobody bothers with support for in-game issues.

    “We can’t acknowledge we were wrong and will no longer talk to you” is not good customer service. Hopefully the team can use this as a training example of how not to respond.

    Torch is recommended for regen all the time with despair because it’s easy to stack the incinerate debuffs. That’s been a thing forever so for support to make the statement they did is very disappointing.

    For this topic, it would be helpful for the game team to clarify if there is some protected percentage of healing that despair can’t reduce. What maratox said makes sense for why it’s happening but doesn’t make sense logically or functionally for players so clarification and a fix (if warranted) would be nice. Seems like despair should be able to shut it down fully at some point. If that’s impossible we should know that.

    You mean there's more than 100% healing? )))).
    It's certainly possible. However, it is not written anywhere about it. Plus I note, if we are talking about something additional, then also pay attention to the screenshots, there is clearly visible: more debuffs - less healing. And the important point is that it decreases and decreases, not stops decreasing as per your logic
  • Wolf5367Wolf5367 Member Posts: 6
    Ruwqiersa said:

    Wait what? They straight up dont know how the game works? Despair always worked with same debuffs. Same for the decay tactic. Thats actually mad

    What do they know?😂
    No matter how you ask, we can't tell exact cause. Either everything is working fine, you have something wrong😂
  • Drago_von_DragoDrago_von_Drago Member Posts: 968 ★★★★
    I’m not saying I think it’s working as it should, I’m saying I understand how it could be working the way it is.

    The way it’s worded, I think you should be able to get enough debuffs for despair to reduce the regen to 0. That’s not the case based on your report.

    The way it appears to be working, despair is calculating the reduction per debuff based on the base regen rate up to 100% reduction. If you have the recovery mastery boosting your regen rate to 115%, despair can only remove 100% of that so you still get 15% regen that despair can’t remove.

    This would be easy to test if you don’t mind wasting the resources changing masteries.

    Parry stuns count for a debuff to trigger willpower so do a practice fight against a defender with no weird abilities and parry them and check their regen rate.

    Test 1 - 1 point in willpower.
    Test 2 - 1 point in willpower and 1point in despair.
    Test 3 - 1 point in willpower, 1 point in recovery, no points in despair.
    Test 4 - 1 point in willpower, 1 point in recover, 1 point in despair.

    If it’s working the way I described, the numbers should end up:
    Test 1 - baseline
    Test 2 - .95* baseline
    Test 3 - 1.05* baseline
    Test 4 - .05* baseline.

    If that’s how it plays out, it seems like a bug to me that’s a side effect of the decision to prevent despair from reversing regen.

  • Wolf5367Wolf5367 Member Posts: 6

    I’m not saying I think it’s working as it should, I’m saying I understand how it could be working the way it is.

    The way it’s worded, I think you should be able to get enough debuffs for despair to reduce the regen to 0. That’s not the case based on your report.

    The way it appears to be working, despair is calculating the reduction per debuff based on the base regen rate up to 100% reduction. If you have the recovery mastery boosting your regen rate to 115%, despair can only remove 100% of that so you still get 15% regen that despair can’t remove.

    This would be easy to test if you don’t mind wasting the resources changing masteries.

    Parry stuns count for a debuff to trigger willpower so do a practice fight against a defender with no weird abilities and parry them and check their regen rate.

    Test 1 - 1 point in willpower.
    Test 2 - 1 point in willpower and 1point in despair.
    Test 3 - 1 point in willpower, 1 point in recovery, no points in despair.
    Test 4 - 1 point in willpower, 1 point in recover, 1 point in despair.

    If it’s working the way I described, the numbers should end up:
    Test 1 - baseline
    Test 2 - .95* baseline
    Test 3 - 1.05* baseline
    Test 4 - .05* baseline.

    If that’s how it plays out, it seems like a bug to me that’s a side effect of the decision to prevent despair from reversing regen.

    You didn't quite get the point of my reply. I wrote about the fact that there in fact did not decrease to 0, that is, the decrease continued when adding debuffs.

    And if I understood you correctly, there should be a moment when adding debuffs will not affect the change of healing. (However, for a large number of debuffs this did not happen)
  • PT_99PT_99 Member Posts: 4,742 ★★★★★
    True, I was also confused why my sandman debuffs wasn't preventing heals and avoiding DOTs in war.
  • Drago_von_DragoDrago_von_Drago Member Posts: 968 ★★★★
    If it works the way I suggested and you have despair maxed, you won’t see any more decrease after 7 debuffs because 7*15% gets you to the -100% max reduction.

    If you are still seeing a reduction after 7 debuffs with max despair then it’s not working they way I suggested. I don’t see any screenshots showing that comparison.

    I tested with killmonger and it seemed consistent with what I suggested. I have recovery maxed (+15%) and 1 point in despair (-5% per debuff). The numbers aren’t perfect but I was seeing:

    191 willpower regen:



    I have recovery maxed so that should be boosted 15% so base recovery would be 166. I’m ignoring the despair reduction because I don’t think it impacts the math.

    I have 1 point in despair so I need 20 debuffs to get to the despair -100% cap.

    Inflicted 20 bleeds from SP3 which brought regen down to “27”and 191-166=25 so things are making some sense.




    Then I parried to get another debuff. This was a new debuff type so it doubled the willpower regen but despair doesn’t seem to have reduced it at all at “51”.




    When the parry fell off the regen was 26 instead of 27 with the same 20 debuffs so something else is causing a slight change as the fight goes on which makes me think the math being slightly off is not related to despair.





    If someone with CCP access could run the tests from my other post and report back that would help.

    Or if someone has video or screenshots showing further reductions after you’ve hit 20 debuffs that would show it doesn’t work this way and it’s even more complicated.

  • HeilkamHeilkam Member Posts: 17

    If it works the way I suggested and you have despair maxed, you won’t see any more decrease after 7 debuffs because 7*15% gets you to the -100% max reduction.




    Problem with recovery mastery is that it says “ increase health your champion recover”
    But when ur regen is blocked by despair mastery you actually don’t recover any health. As said above 15% of 0 recovered health is 0

  • AverageDesiAverageDesi Member Posts: 5,260 ★★★★★
    Heilkam said:

    If it works the way I suggested and you have despair maxed, you won’t see any more decrease after 7 debuffs because 7*15% gets you to the -100% max reduction.




    Problem with recovery mastery is that it says “ increase health your champion recover”
    But when ur regen is blocked by despair mastery you actually don’t recover any health. As said above 15% of 0 recovered health is 0

    This is all done in base. 100% regen rate at base. Recovery adds 15%. 115% is the regeneration rare now. With despair you reduce 100%. So 115-100= 15%.

    That's the way almost all reductions and additions work in the game. You can take it or leave it. No matter the amount of times you say you don't like it or you don't understand it, IT.WILL.NEVER.CHANGE. So preserve your sanity and pressure and don't beat a buried and decomposed horse
  • PT_99PT_99 Member Posts: 4,742 ★★★★★
    After ignoring, Tigra getting parried by hitting in block, we have, debuffs not working as intended.

    Kabam sleep 😴
  • HeilkamHeilkam Member Posts: 17
    edited November 2023

    Heilkam said:

    If it works the way I suggested and you have despair maxed, you won’t see any more decrease after 7 debuffs because 7*15% gets you to the -100% max reduction.




    Problem with recovery mastery is that it says “ increase health your champion recover”
    But when ur regen is blocked by despair mastery you actually don’t recover any health. As said above 15% of 0 recovered health is 0

    This is all done in base. 100% regen rate at base. Recovery adds 15%. 115% is the regeneration rare now. With despair you reduce 100%. So 115-100= 15%.

    That's the way almost all reductions and additions work in the game. You can take it or leave it. No matter the amount of times you say you don't like it or you don't understand it, IT.WILL.NEVER.CHANGE. So preserve your sanity and pressure and don't beat a buried and decomposed horse
    Once again. If your champ doesn’t recover any health you just can’t increase anything.
    If it would say “recovery mastery increase healing ability accuracy by 15%” that’s different than we have right now.
    And we haven’t mentioned anywhere that despair mastery has any cap
  • Drago_von_DragoDrago_von_Drago Member Posts: 968 ★★★★
    I agree despair “should” be able to get regen to 0 based on the descriptions.

    I was trying to confirm how it is actually working. It looks like Despair isn’t coded to account for the boosted regen from Recovery.

    Now we just wait an indefinite amount of time to see if Kabam acknowledge the issue and do anything about it. Sounds like they are aware and aren’t gonna change it.
  • pseudosanepseudosane Member, Guardian Posts: 4,004 Guardian
    Maratox said:

    Heilkam said:

    Maratox said:

    There’s a mastery, I believe called recovery, that increases healing by a certain percentage. Despair cannot reduce that so in AW and BGs some healing will still occur on the defender no matter how many debuffs you put on them

    No need to invent something of your own.
    Healing is healing. Reducing is reducing.
    Of course recovery increases some % of regened HP. But despair mastery still work it’s just need few more debuffs to stop regen.
    It’s simple math from 5 degree of school.
    30*15%= 450% reduction of healing it’s would be reversing, but game doesn’t work like this so it’s just “100%” reduction to prevent healing. Usually healing stopping and u can watch red “-1” instead of green +something

    I’m not inventing something of my own. It’s fact. Recovery boosts the healing from willpower by a certain percentage. Despair only reduces the base amount of willpower. So if they have 15% additional willpower healing from recovery, at 30 or 100 debuffs the defender will recover that extra 15% health all the time.
    This is the correct reason. I know it isnt what you are looking for but this is exactly why.
  • HeilkamHeilkam Member Posts: 17
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