AW Season 49

Matty_Ice

Why would you blacklist one of the few tactic champions who can deal with hazard shift?

Comments

Bendy

One of my rank ups from act 8 stuff was for ice

Matty_Ice

I love iceman, and I R5 Ascended him before this tactic came out, so I think he’s still worth it outside of war. But dang is that depressing.

Matty_Ice

One of my rank ups from act 8 stuff was for ice

Good thing you read this before you ranked him though.

Bendy

One of my rank ups from act 8 stuff was for ice
Good thing you read this before you ranked him though.

Yeah now gotta plan around as atm im using void but with weapon x on p9 hazard incinerate poison i need another option now thank god for seeing this and the post as it would have been not as bad as can still use but its mainly a rank up for the season tags

BigBlueOx

They really kept the blacklist/whitelist junk and didn’t add anybody else in this limited meta… get ready to dust off the D-listers 🤮

GroundedWisdom

I think you answered your own question.

startropics

this is the problem with the damn blacklist.

1. the champs you NEED are banned.
2. the champs you JUST RANKED are banned.
3. and by the time they're usable they're meta irrelevant, aka a complete waste of resources.

as a community, we use the words "cash grab" and "ripoff" a lot, mostly in situations that don't call for it (like offers), but this is what the blacklist actually feels like.

why do you do this to us?

BigBlueOx

this is the problem with the damn blacklist.

1. the champs you NEED are banned.
2. the champs you JUST RANKED are banned.
3. and by the time they're usable they're meta irrelevant, aka a complete waste of resources.

as a community, we use the words "cash grab" and "ripoff" a lot, mostly in situations that don't call for it (like offers), but this is what the blacklist actually feels like.

why do you do this to us?

It made sense in a world before this current design and when tactics ran 3 seasons. In this 2 season format with more rigid tactical adherence requirements it just further limits our already limited options… and I agree the white list has become a meme, being never relevant.

Matty_Ice

Why blacklist tactics? What is the point of having a saga with specific champs and then you can’t even use the champs you specifically told us to use?

21Eggatron

Champs still in the pool who work for Hazard Shift:

Both Sections: Destroyer, Dragon Man, Kushala, Sauron, Black Widow CV, Havok, Colossus, Dust, White Tiger if there's lots of buffs, Emma Frost with enough practice.

Section 1 Specifically: Void, Toad, Werewolf By Night

Section 2 Specifically: Gambit, Man-Thing, Storm X, any of them with an Odin Pre-Fight

I get it, it sucks that a champion you invested in got blacklisted, but please don't try and push the agenda that there's only a few Hazard Shift tactic options. It just means you spend one of your phases building tactic prowess and the other dealing damage.

Bendy

Champs still in the pool who work for Hazard Shift:

Both Sections: Destroyer, Dragon Man, Kushala, Sauron, Black Widow CV, Havok, Colossus, Dust, White Tiger if there's lots of buffs, Emma Frost with enough practice.

Section 1 Specifically: Void, Toad, Werewolf By Night

Section 2 Specifically: Gambit, Man-Thing, Storm X, any of them with an Odin Pre-Fight

I get it, it sucks that a champion you invested in got blacklisted, but please don't try and push the agenda that there's only a few Hazard Shift tactic options. It just means you spend one of your phases building tactic prowess and the other dealing damage.

Its more of champs that those might not counter when theres bans also like mephisto zemo maybe a weapon x its 4 xmagica champs banned basically when trying to clear incinerate poison hazard sucks as easy bans next month be triple incinerate immune champs so like kushala void and othere be colos

Edit: i mean next season not next month

startropics

this is the problem with the damn blacklist.

1. the champs you NEED are banned.
2. the champs you JUST RANKED are banned.
3. and by the time they're usable they're meta irrelevant, aka a complete waste of resources.

as a community, we use the words "cash grab" and "ripoff" a lot, mostly in situations that don't call for it (like offers), but this is what the blacklist actually feels like.

why do you do this to us?

It made sense in a world before this current design and when tactics ran 3 seasons. In this 2 season format with more rigid tactical adherence requirements it just further limits our already limited options… and I agree the white list has become a meme, being never relevant.

the whitelist is really just a long term rotating blacklist pretending to be beneficial. the champs that come in are entirely worthless when they don't line up with the meta, and that's how they're designing it.

kabam, if you're reading this please take this feedback seriously because the current system is a very frustrating loop of forced rankups and devaluation and it feels awful.

i13

My highest ranked is Iceman 😢

Bendy

My highest ranked is Iceman 😢

That sucks

Matty_Ice

Champs still in the pool who work for Hazard Shift:

Both Sections: Destroyer, Dragon Man, Kushala, Sauron, Black Widow CV, Havok, Colossus, Dust, White Tiger if there's lots of buffs, Emma Frost with enough practice.

Section 1 Specifically: Void, Toad, Werewolf By Night

Section 2 Specifically: Gambit, Man-Thing, Storm X, any of them with an Odin Pre-Fight

I get it, it sucks that a champion you invested in got blacklisted, but please don't try and push the agenda that there's only a few Hazard Shift tactic options. It just means you spend one of your phases building tactic prowess and the other dealing damage.

You CAN make some of these champs work, but you can easily put defenders on the path to make it where you can’t easily counter it with just these champs. A tactic champ and Odin is 2 spots. That can be a lot to counter 1 fight on the path. Then just place 3 other defenders who take specific counters and now path 9 is beyond a headache.

Bendy

Champs still in the pool who work for Hazard Shift:

Both Sections: Destroyer, Dragon Man, Kushala, Sauron, Black Widow CV, Havok, Colossus, Dust, White Tiger if there's lots of buffs, Emma Frost with enough practice.

Section 1 Specifically: Void, Toad, Werewolf By Night

Section 2 Specifically: Gambit, Man-Thing, Storm X, any of them with an Odin Pre-Fight

I get it, it sucks that a champion you invested in got blacklisted, but please don't try and push the agenda that there's only a few Hazard Shift tactic options. It just means you spend one of your phases building tactic prowess and the other dealing damage.
You CAN make some of these champs work, but you can easily put defenders on the path to make it where you can’t easily counter it with just these champs. A tactic champ and Odin is 2 spots. That can be a lot to counter 1 fight on the path. Then just place 3 other defenders who take specific counters and now path 9 is beyond a headache.

P9 is already a headache with tactic defenders when tactic champs are banned as some tactic attackers dont counter every tactic defender on that lane

21Eggatron

Champs still in the pool who work for Hazard Shift:

Both Sections: Destroyer, Dragon Man, Kushala, Sauron, Black Widow CV, Havok, Colossus, Dust, White Tiger if there's lots of buffs, Emma Frost with enough practice.

Section 1 Specifically: Void, Toad, Werewolf By Night

Section 2 Specifically: Gambit, Man-Thing, Storm X, any of them with an Odin Pre-Fight

I get it, it sucks that a champion you invested in got blacklisted, but please don't try and push the agenda that there's only a few Hazard Shift tactic options. It just means you spend one of your phases building tactic prowess and the other dealing damage.
Its more of champs that those might not counter when theres bans also like mephisto zemo maybe a weapon x its 4 xmagica champs banned basically when trying to clear incinerate poison hazard sucks as easy bans next month be triple incinerate immune champs so like kushala void and othere be colos

Edit: i mean next season not next month

Bluntly, you are not forced to use Tactic Attackers against Non-Tactic defenders. Especially on Path 9, War is about finding the right balance between Tactic and non-tactic. I by no means am trying to make it sound easy, but there's a reason why planning wins wars almost as much as performing wins wars.

21Eggatron

Champs still in the pool who work for Hazard Shift:

Both Sections: Destroyer, Dragon Man, Kushala, Sauron, Black Widow CV, Havok, Colossus, Dust, White Tiger if there's lots of buffs, Emma Frost with enough practice.

Section 1 Specifically: Void, Toad, Werewolf By Night

Section 2 Specifically: Gambit, Man-Thing, Storm X, any of them with an Odin Pre-Fight

I get it, it sucks that a champion you invested in got blacklisted, but please don't try and push the agenda that there's only a few Hazard Shift tactic options. It just means you spend one of your phases building tactic prowess and the other dealing damage.
You CAN make some of these champs work, but you can easily put defenders on the path to make it where you can’t easily counter it with just these champs. A tactic champ and Odin is 2 spots. That can be a lot to counter 1 fight on the path. Then just place 3 other defenders who take specific counters and now path 9 is beyond a headache.

Then Path Split. Have someone take section 1 then go do a different path in section 2 and someone else take a different path in section 1 and take section 2. It's a team game mode, coordinate, plan, and work as a team. That's war.

jcphillips7

Champs still in the pool who work for Hazard Shift:

Both Sections: Destroyer, Dragon Man, Kushala, Sauron, Black Widow CV, Havok, Colossus, Dust, White Tiger if there's lots of buffs, Emma Frost with enough practice.

Section 1 Specifically: Void, Toad, Werewolf By Night

Section 2 Specifically: Gambit, Man-Thing, Storm X, any of them with an Odin Pre-Fight

I get it, it sucks that a champion you invested in got blacklisted, but please don't try and push the agenda that there's only a few Hazard Shift tactic options. It just means you spend one of your phases building tactic prowess and the other dealing damage.
You CAN make some of these champs work, but you can easily put defenders on the path to make it where you can’t easily counter it with just these champs. A tactic champ and Odin is 2 spots. That can be a lot to counter 1 fight on the path. Then just place 3 other defenders who take specific counters and now path 9 is beyond a headache.
Then Path Split. Have someone take section 1 then go do a different path in section 2 and someone else take a different path in section 1 and take section 2. It's a team game mode, coordinate, plan, and work as a team. That's war.

Aha! But see, for that to work, you actually have to get your alliance mates to give a **** in the first place 🫠

Deacon

We didn't use Iceman at all this season .. I mean I didn't even notice him albeit he was banned all season 😂

Still .. we did just fine without having him or Bishop. There are still viable attackers in the meta .. just gotta embrace the challenge.

Matty_Ice

Champs still in the pool who work for Hazard Shift:

Both Sections: Destroyer, Dragon Man, Kushala, Sauron, Black Widow CV, Havok, Colossus, Dust, White Tiger if there's lots of buffs, Emma Frost with enough practice.

Section 1 Specifically: Void, Toad, Werewolf By Night

Section 2 Specifically: Gambit, Man-Thing, Storm X, any of them with an Odin Pre-Fight

I get it, it sucks that a champion you invested in got blacklisted, but please don't try and push the agenda that there's only a few Hazard Shift tactic options. It just means you spend one of your phases building tactic prowess and the other dealing damage.
You CAN make some of these champs work, but you can easily put defenders on the path to make it where you can’t easily counter it with just these champs. A tactic champ and Odin is 2 spots. That can be a lot to counter 1 fight on the path. Then just place 3 other defenders who take specific counters and now path 9 is beyond a headache.
Then Path Split. Have someone take section 1 then go do a different path in section 2 and someone else take a different path in section 1 and take section 2. It's a team game mode, coordinate, plan, and work as a team. That's war.

We are ultimately going to find a way to make it work, because that is the game mode. However I can still share my displeasure for the choices made.

Skyfaw

What I want to know is why is Scorpion whitelisted and not KP in the higher war tier. That has to be an error right?

21Eggatron

What I want to know is why is Scorpion whitelisted and not KP in the higher war tier. That has to be an error right?

Kingpin wasn't Blacklisted in the Elite tier last season, it was Ghost and Scorpion. That's why.

Skyfaw

What I want to know is why is Scorpion whitelisted and not KP in the higher war tier. That has to be an error right?
Kingpin wasn't Blacklisted in the Elite tier last season, it was Ghost and Scorpion. That's why.

I was in the expert tier doing tier 2 war and KP + Ghost were perma banned not scorpion.

jcphillips7

How are these choices even picked? Is it based on data collected of most banned champs the season prior, or is it just a way to royally piss people off?

Genuinely curious

BigBlueOx

Champs still in the pool who work for Hazard Shift:

Both Sections: Destroyer, Dragon Man, Kushala, Sauron, Black Widow CV, Havok, Colossus, Dust, White Tiger if there's lots of buffs, Emma Frost with enough practice.

Section 1 Specifically: Void, Toad, Werewolf By Night

Section 2 Specifically: Gambit, Man-Thing, Storm X, any of them with an Odin Pre-Fight

I get it, it sucks that a champion you invested in got blacklisted, but please don't try and push the agenda that there's only a few Hazard Shift tactic options. It just means you spend one of your phases building tactic prowess and the other dealing damage.

Completely agree with these recommendations but let’s also not pretend that this “blacklist/whitelist” concept was designed for war as it is now. It’s not about path 9 to me, it’s more a criticism of how the current design interacts with this reminder of how AW used to be.

The blacklist was created in more open tactics to get summoners to use different tactic attackers and stop relying on HT, Ghost, Quake, Kingpin, etc. While the white list was specifically created to let people use their HTs, Ghosts, Kingpins, and Hercules like attackers on a rotating basis. Over time this pivoted to the best tactic attackers also making it into the ban pool and when a tactic would span 3 seasons the white list also mattered more as bans moved to banning the best tactic attackers. Now the white list is an utter joke every other season.

In previous metas the interactions were more flexible and summoners could flex their rosters to address the problems as there was often good champs outside of the tactic options that could address the challenges… but now in the Magic Thief and Crush metas the design essentially requires us to use the tactic attack pool to deal with tactic defenders, it’s already very restrictive and the black list restricts it more, now our top 5 options are removed most wars and we will be stuck ranking champs we probably don’t even enjoy… especially when you feel forced to use it in the highest stress game mode. It doesn’t feel innovative, it feels punitive.

Here’s hoping this is a one off though and the meta design isn’t as restrictive next time and this matters less in the right ways.

21Eggatron

Champs still in the pool who work for Hazard Shift:

Both Sections: Destroyer, Dragon Man, Kushala, Sauron, Black Widow CV, Havok, Colossus, Dust, White Tiger if there's lots of buffs, Emma Frost with enough practice.

Section 1 Specifically: Void, Toad, Werewolf By Night

Section 2 Specifically: Gambit, Man-Thing, Storm X, any of them with an Odin Pre-Fight

I get it, it sucks that a champion you invested in got blacklisted, but please don't try and push the agenda that there's only a few Hazard Shift tactic options. It just means you spend one of your phases building tactic prowess and the other dealing damage.
Completely agree with these recommendations but let’s also not pretend that this “blacklist/whitelist” concept was designed for war as it is now. It’s not about path 9 to me, it’s more a criticism of how the current design interacts with this reminder of how AW used to be.

The blacklist was created in more open tactics to get summoners to use different tactic attackers and stop relying on HT, Ghost, Quake, Kingpin, etc. While the white list was specifically created to let people use their HTs, Ghosts, Kingpins, and Hercules like attackers on a rotating basis. Over time this pivoted to the best tactic attackers also making it into the ban pool and when a tactic would span 3 seasons the white list also mattered more as bans moved to banning the best tactic attackers. Now the white list is an utter joke every other season.

In previous metas the interactions were more flexible and summoners could flex their rosters to address the problems as there was often good champs outside of the tactic options that could address the challenges… but now in the Magic Thief and Crush metas the design essentially requires us to use the tactic attack pool to deal with tactic defenders, it’s already very restrictive and the black list restricts it more, now our top 5 options are removed most wars and we will be stuck ranking champs we probably don’t even enjoy… especially when you feel forced to use it in the highest stress game mode. It doesn’t feel innovative, it feels punitive.

Here’s hoping this is a one off though and the meta design isn’t as restrictive next time and this matters less in the right ways.

Your point about the purpose of the blacklist/whitelist having evolved is correct, but I don't agree that it's a bad thing.

It's less relevant in the first season, which is usually the learning period where people get to understand how the tactic works and who is good without having a blacklist that impacts the tactic pool, and the second season is tactic relevant bans after we as the players have gotten the opportunity to learn, rank up other options, and Kabam has tuned the tactic based on data and feedback from the first season.

Maybe Kabam needs to consider removing the blacklist/whitelist systems for tier 2 and below, or at the very least making more changes between tier 1 and below for how it functions, but the way it works for modern war at the top makes sense to me.

unknown

This content has been removed.

21Eggatron

How are these choices even picked? Is it based on data collected of most banned champs the season prior, or is it just a way to royally piss people off?

Genuinely curious

It's based on data collection.

Kushala and Bishop had the highest ban rate at Elite tier, so therefore blacklist. Bishop and Iceman at Expert Tier and Iceman at Challenger Tier, same deal. These are not conspiracy theory, anti-player style decisions in the background. It has been and continues to be entirely based on what we the players choose to ban the most.

21Eggatron

What I want to know is why is Scorpion whitelisted and not KP in the higher war tier. That has to be an error right?
Kingpin wasn't Blacklisted in the Elite tier last season, it was Ghost and Scorpion. That's why.
I was in the expert tier doing tier 2 war and KP + Ghost were perma banned not scorpion.

I didn't clock that there wasn't a change in whitelist for Expert Tier. If I were you I'd confirm it's a typo, because you're right, it should be Kingpin.