The 2024 champ problem

Magrailothos

Wow, @Emilia90 - I took a look at Prowler's Sig scaling on Auntm.ai... it's bad...



I hope that's something they adjust in his re-balance.

BigBlueOx

2024 is the worst champ year in 4 years. Defenders are made tough by ignoring masteries or having unavoidable chip damage. Attackers all have over tuned complex rotations that almost all rely on AI cooperation. Balance program is laughably making one of the cheapest defenders harder.

EdisonLaw

BigBlueOx said:

2024 is the worst champ year in 4 years. Defenders are made tough by ignoring masteries or having unavoidable chip damage. Attackers all have over tuned complex rotations that almost all rely on AI cooperation. Balance program is laughably making one of the cheapest defenders harder.

Don’t forget the rough start to raids, war showcase as well as Winter of Woe Absorbing Man

Emilia90

BigBlueOx said:

2024 is the worst champ year in 4 years. Defenders are made tough by ignoring masteries or having unavoidable chip damage. Attackers all have over tuned complex rotations that almost all rely on AI cooperation. Balance program is laughably making one of the cheapest defenders harder.

This I don’t fully agree with. Photon and Onslaught were last year and have the mastery disable ability too so it’s not like 2024 introduced that. Most champs this year are also extremely simple to play so idk where people are getting this complex thing from. They just don’t hit very hard

What champ is the balance program making harder? Bullseye is getting tuned down

Emilia90

EdisonLaw said:

BigBlueOx said:

2024 is the worst champ year in 4 years. Defenders are made tough by ignoring masteries or having unavoidable chip damage. Attackers all have over tuned complex rotations that almost all rely on AI cooperation. Balance program is laughably making one of the cheapest defenders harder.

Don’t forget the rough start to raids, war showcase as well as Winter of Woe Absorbing Man

He said worst champ year. AW showcase wasn’t hard and Abs was a small misstep. You’re bringing up irrelevant stuff here

BigBlueOx

Emilia90 said:

BigBlueOx said:

2024 is the worst champ year in 4 years. Defenders are made tough by ignoring masteries or having unavoidable chip damage. Attackers all have over tuned complex rotations that almost all rely on AI cooperation. Balance program is laughably making one of the cheapest defenders harder.

This I don’t fully agree with. Photon and Onslaught were last year and have the mastery disable ability too so it’s not like 2024 introduced that. Most champs this year are also extremely simple to play so idk where people are getting this complex thing from. They just don’t hit very hard

What champ is the balance program making harder? Bullseye is getting tuned down

Never claimed they introduced it in 2024.

Bullseye will be a better defender against 2 of his better counters as a result of being balanced. Bleed damage on basics was never really the problem either… what a tune down lol. He also remains bleh on attack

Emilia90

BigBlueOx said:

Emilia90 said:

BigBlueOx said:

2024 is the worst champ year in 4 years. Defenders are made tough by ignoring masteries or having unavoidable chip damage. Attackers all have over tuned complex rotations that almost all rely on AI cooperation. Balance program is laughably making one of the cheapest defenders harder.

This I don’t fully agree with. Photon and Onslaught were last year and have the mastery disable ability too so it’s not like 2024 introduced that. Most champs this year are also extremely simple to play so idk where people are getting this complex thing from. They just don’t hit very hard

What champ is the balance program making harder? Bullseye is getting tuned down

Never claimed they introduced it in 2024.

Yeah but you’re saying that defenders do that this year (we’ve had 2 this year that do that) and 2 last year so the defense complaint could be used there as well 🤷🏽‍♀️

BigBlueOx

Emilia90 said:

BigBlueOx said:

Emilia90 said:

BigBlueOx said:

2024 is the worst champ year in 4 years. Defenders are made tough by ignoring masteries or having unavoidable chip damage. Attackers all have over tuned complex rotations that almost all rely on AI cooperation. Balance program is laughably making one of the cheapest defenders harder.

This I don’t fully agree with. Photon and Onslaught were last year and have the mastery disable ability too so it’s not like 2024 introduced that. Most champs this year are also extremely simple to play so idk where people are getting this complex thing from. They just don’t hit very hard

What champ is the balance program making harder? Bullseye is getting tuned down

Never claimed they introduced it in 2024.

Yeah but you’re saying that defenders do that this year (we’ve had 2 this year that do that) and 2 last year so the defense complaint could be used there as well 🤷🏽‍♀️

Let’s apply it there then. And add Bullseye, he ignores it in all practical ways.

Polygon

Inb4 the "nOt aLl chAmpS aRe meAnT tO bE vALuAblE for BGs" takes. We all know it's the the only relevant game mode in the game.

Emilia90

BigBlueOx said:

Emilia90 said:

BigBlueOx said:

Emilia90 said:

BigBlueOx said:

2024 is the worst champ year in 4 years. Defenders are made tough by ignoring masteries or having unavoidable chip damage. Attackers all have over tuned complex rotations that almost all rely on AI cooperation. Balance program is laughably making one of the cheapest defenders harder.

This I don’t fully agree with. Photon and Onslaught were last year and have the mastery disable ability too so it’s not like 2024 introduced that. Most champs this year are also extremely simple to play so idk where people are getting this complex thing from. They just don’t hit very hard

What champ is the balance program making harder? Bullseye is getting tuned down

Never claimed they introduced it in 2024.

Yeah but you’re saying that defenders do that this year (we’ve had 2 this year that do that) and 2 last year so the defense complaint could be used there as well 🤷🏽‍♀️

Let’s apply it there then. And add Bullseye, he ignores it in all practical ways.

Pretty much. At least he has a lot of hard counters though. On top of that, he’s getting nerfed so you can now use Starky, Hulkling, Bishop, Sunspot, Domino, etc even better against him since you won’t take bleed dex damage

SirGamesBond

I have started slowly ranking and sigging up superior iron man. I don't trust these new champs. Zero hopes of BRB being a relevant BG option.

The green megamind may be another defender next month.
People are likely to rank their 7* whalepon X during sales, instead of these 2024 champs.

Nemesis_17

Polygon said:

Inb4 the "nOt aLl chAmpS aRe meAnT tO bE vALuAblE for BGs" takes. We all know it's the the only relevant game mode in the game.

I honestly don’t think all champs should necessarily be designed with bgs in mind, but yes it is the biggest game mode, and I think champ releases should be in proportion to that. The majority of champ releases should be viable champs for bgs, not necessarily all, but most. However what we’ve seen is the majority of new champs being too weak to have a spot in most people’s decks, instead of that being for a few outliers.

And while I don’t think that all champ releases should be bg focused, I don’t like how it’s used as an excuse to justify underwhelming champs. I’ll use my photon who is designed for bgs over spider punk in any piece of content. It’s used as a bad excuse.

EdisonLaw

Emilia90 said:

EdisonLaw said:

BigBlueOx said:

2024 is the worst champ year in 4 years. Defenders are made tough by ignoring masteries or having unavoidable chip damage. Attackers all have over tuned complex rotations that almost all rely on AI cooperation. Balance program is laughably making one of the cheapest defenders harder.

Don’t forget the rough start to raids, war showcase as well as Winter of Woe Absorbing Man

He said worst champ year. AW showcase wasn’t hard and Abs was a small misstep. You’re bringing up irrelevant stuff here

True, other than this year which other year was really bad?

BigBlueOx

Emilia90 said:

BigBlueOx said:

Emilia90 said:

BigBlueOx said:

Emilia90 said:

BigBlueOx said:

2024 is the worst champ year in 4 years. Defenders are made tough by ignoring masteries or having unavoidable chip damage. Attackers all have over tuned complex rotations that almost all rely on AI cooperation. Balance program is laughably making one of the cheapest defenders harder.

This I don’t fully agree with. Photon and Onslaught were last year and have the mastery disable ability too so it’s not like 2024 introduced that. Most champs this year are also extremely simple to play so idk where people are getting this complex thing from. They just don’t hit very hard

What champ is the balance program making harder? Bullseye is getting tuned down

Never claimed they introduced it in 2024.

Yeah but you’re saying that defenders do that this year (we’ve had 2 this year that do that) and 2 last year so the defense complaint could be used there as well 🤷🏽‍♀️

Let’s apply it there then. And add Bullseye, he ignores it in all practical ways.

Pretty much. At least he has a lot of hard counters though. On top of that, he’s getting nerfed so you can now use Starky, Hulkling, Bishop, Sunspot, Domino, etc even better against him since you won’t take bleed dex damage

Last I checked that sp1 bleed ain’t going anywhere. So I’m not seeing your point.

ItsClobberinTime

BigBlueOx said:

Emilia90 said:

BigBlueOx said:

Emilia90 said:

BigBlueOx said:

Emilia90 said:

BigBlueOx said:

2024 is the worst champ year in 4 years. Defenders are made tough by ignoring masteries or having unavoidable chip damage. Attackers all have over tuned complex rotations that almost all rely on AI cooperation. Balance program is laughably making one of the cheapest defenders harder.

This I don’t fully agree with. Photon and Onslaught were last year and have the mastery disable ability too so it’s not like 2024 introduced that. Most champs this year are also extremely simple to play so idk where people are getting this complex thing from. They just don’t hit very hard

What champ is the balance program making harder? Bullseye is getting tuned down

Never claimed they introduced it in 2024.

Yeah but you’re saying that defenders do that this year (we’ve had 2 this year that do that) and 2 last year so the defense complaint could be used there as well 🤷🏽‍♀️

Let’s apply it there then. And add Bullseye, he ignores it in all practical ways.

Pretty much. At least he has a lot of hard counters though. On top of that, he’s getting nerfed so you can now use Starky, Hulkling, Bishop, Sunspot, Domino, etc even better against him since you won’t take bleed dex damage

Last I checked that sp1 bleed ain’t going anywhere. So I’m not seeing your point.

You'll still lose health but not 50% like before, it's a nice change tbh.

BigBlueOx

ItsClobberinTime said:

BigBlueOx said:

Emilia90 said:

BigBlueOx said:

Emilia90 said:

BigBlueOx said:

Emilia90 said:

BigBlueOx said:

2024 is the worst champ year in 4 years. Defenders are made tough by ignoring masteries or having unavoidable chip damage. Attackers all have over tuned complex rotations that almost all rely on AI cooperation. Balance program is laughably making one of the cheapest defenders harder.

This I don’t fully agree with. Photon and Onslaught were last year and have the mastery disable ability too so it’s not like 2024 introduced that. Most champs this year are also extremely simple to play so idk where people are getting this complex thing from. They just don’t hit very hard

What champ is the balance program making harder? Bullseye is getting tuned down

Never claimed they introduced it in 2024.

Yeah but you’re saying that defenders do that this year (we’ve had 2 this year that do that) and 2 last year so the defense complaint could be used there as well 🤷🏽‍♀️

Let’s apply it there then. And add Bullseye, he ignores it in all practical ways.

Pretty much. At least he has a lot of hard counters though. On top of that, he’s getting nerfed so you can now use Starky, Hulkling, Bishop, Sunspot, Domino, etc even better against him since you won’t take bleed dex damage

Last I checked that sp1 bleed ain’t going anywhere. So I’m not seeing your point.

You'll still lose health but not 50% like before, it's a nice change tbh.

It’s better than nothing… but not much. Parrying stopped that bleed before as it was.

SirGamesBond

Rip 2024 mediocrity.

ItsClobberinTime

BigBlueOx said:

ItsClobberinTime said:

BigBlueOx said:

Emilia90 said:

BigBlueOx said:

Emilia90 said:

BigBlueOx said:

Emilia90 said:

BigBlueOx said:

2024 is the worst champ year in 4 years. Defenders are made tough by ignoring masteries or having unavoidable chip damage. Attackers all have over tuned complex rotations that almost all rely on AI cooperation. Balance program is laughably making one of the cheapest defenders harder.

This I don’t fully agree with. Photon and Onslaught were last year and have the mastery disable ability too so it’s not like 2024 introduced that. Most champs this year are also extremely simple to play so idk where people are getting this complex thing from. They just don’t hit very hard

What champ is the balance program making harder? Bullseye is getting tuned down

Never claimed they introduced it in 2024.

Yeah but you’re saying that defenders do that this year (we’ve had 2 this year that do that) and 2 last year so the defense complaint could be used there as well 🤷🏽‍♀️

Let’s apply it there then. And add Bullseye, he ignores it in all practical ways.

Pretty much. At least he has a lot of hard counters though. On top of that, he’s getting nerfed so you can now use Starky, Hulkling, Bishop, Sunspot, Domino, etc even better against him since you won’t take bleed dex damage

Last I checked that sp1 bleed ain’t going anywhere. So I’m not seeing your point.

You'll still lose health but not 50% like before, it's a nice change tbh.

It’s better than nothing… but not much. Parrying stopped that bleed before as it was.

Oh I agree, the fact that you can still lose 20% even with bleed immune because of the crits on block is still bs, but this is definitely better than nothing so I'll take it.

FrostGiantLord

I'm really disappointed by the champ releases this year. Lots of mediocre champs that can't really find their place in the meta with other champs that just do their job better than them. Hopefully the champ releases in the latter part of the year get better

Emilia90

FrostGiantLord said:

I'm really disappointed by the champ releases this year. Lots of mediocre champs that can't really find their place in the meta with other champs that just do their job better than them. Hopefully the champ releases in the latter part of the year get better

Definitely an interesting choice on their part. Battlegrounds is a big focus for the big spenders and they could milk everyone with great new champs but idk who’s dropping money on mid like NorthStar

EdisonLaw

Emilia90 said:

FrostGiantLord said:

I'm really disappointed by the champ releases this year. Lots of mediocre champs that can't really find their place in the meta with other champs that just do their job better than them. Hopefully the champ releases in the latter part of the year get better

Definitely an interesting choice on their part. Battlegrounds is a big focus for the big spenders and they could milk everyone with great new champs but idk who’s dropping money on mid like NorthStar

and it looks like Northstar isn't gonna do much in BGs except for maybe countering Killmonger? At least Arcade has a use as a BG defender

ItsClobberinTime

EdisonLaw said:

Emilia90 said:

FrostGiantLord said:

I'm really disappointed by the champ releases this year. Lots of mediocre champs that can't really find their place in the meta with other champs that just do their job better than them. Hopefully the champ releases in the latter part of the year get better

Definitely an interesting choice on their part. Battlegrounds is a big focus for the big spenders and they could milk everyone with great new champs but idk who’s dropping money on mid like NorthStar

and it looks like Northstar isn't gonna do much in BGs except for maybe countering Killmonger? At least Arcade has a use as a BG defender

Even then, Surfer Thor Negasonic etc are all quicker so no not even that.
As for Arcade, he's a meh defender with so many autoblock counters. All you really need to learn is how to dex his sp1 that's it

EdisonLaw

ItsClobberinTime said:

EdisonLaw said:

Emilia90 said:

FrostGiantLord said:

I'm really disappointed by the champ releases this year. Lots of mediocre champs that can't really find their place in the meta with other champs that just do their job better than them. Hopefully the champ releases in the latter part of the year get better

Definitely an interesting choice on their part. Battlegrounds is a big focus for the big spenders and they could milk everyone with great new champs but idk who’s dropping money on mid like NorthStar

and it looks like Northstar isn't gonna do much in BGs except for maybe countering Killmonger? At least Arcade has a use as a BG defender

Even then, Surfer Thor Negasonic etc are all quicker so no not even that.
As for Arcade, he's a meh defender with so many autoblock counters. All you really need to learn is how to dex his sp1 that's it

Or push him to SP2 instead

ThatGuyYouSaw235

Honestly wouldn't be a stretch to say the best champs we got fron 2024 are the ones who got buffed this year.

smdam38

This whole thread is a wall of text.

If you’re a huge whale, you can actually talk to Kabaam directly and they will meet your needs.

Thank you for your service lol.

ra_wr

Karatemike415 said:

Not gunna give my opinion on all the Champs listed - just popping in to say that Bullseye is crazy underrated on Attack throughout the majority of the game. For sure, he could be a bit slower on BGs offense against non-science Champs, but his kit interacts with so many different nodes & abilities. One of my favorite attackers at the moment.

just because his kit has tons of utility and interactions doesnt mean skimping out on damage is a fun thing to have happen.

I would much rather bring into a quest a champ I know reliably counters the node im heading into with much higher damage and survivability. Its not "low damage" thats the issue its "bad damage", having to rank 2 ranks ahead to even compete with champions that have mediocre or "alright" damage, and with a much more fun playstyle (that part is subjective).

Theres just no practical reason to bring in champs with "bad damage" into endgame quests unless its low healthpool fun and you already have them ranked up. A R3 7* bullseye is perfect for map 7 or maybe 8 aq path fights! but that doesnt mean his damage is good by any means.

for example, I have a duped R2 7* mojo. took him up as soon as his carinas challenge dropped. i almost never use him on offense. I took him up primarilly for defense when i still played BGs. He was a worthwhile investment. however, he has 1 practical offensive use: cosmics. Its broad enough that it makes the investment worth it. bullseye? we will have to wait and see. (or maybe you can enlighten me! aways like to have my opinions be challenged!)

This game is all about fun karatemike so you do you my friend! but to see the standard of champions in terms of damage decrease over the years, and champion spotlights on the official mcoc website either lie or mislead players on those ratings has left me with a sour taste in my mouth.

ItsClobberinTime

ThatGuyYouSaw235 said:

Honestly wouldn't be a stretch to say the best champs we got fron 2024 are the ones who got buffed this year.

Most definitely, all the new champs this year (yes, even Bullseye and Serpent, both useless on attack in BGs) are hot garbage compared to Red Guardian, Red Skull and Sinister.

ThatGuyYouSaw235

ItsClobberinTime said:

ThatGuyYouSaw235 said:

Honestly wouldn't be a stretch to say the best champs we got fron 2024 are the ones who got buffed this year.

Most definitely, all the new champs this year (yes, even Bullseye and Serpent, both useless on attack in BGs) are hot garbage compared to Red Guardian, Red Skull and Sinister.

Red Skull was barely last year. But I reckon we can count Gladiator and (maybe) Luke Cage in there too.

C000DYY

I agree in some parts. But kabam wants you to max out your champion right? Well from the videos I've seen of people with arcade, serpant, destroyer.. **compared to other champs** they are Nowhere near them. I mean hulkling rips damm near everyone up. Herc.. we know.. so whata the point of maxing out a champ.. if they aren't going to fill that void thst hulkling, cgr, herc, he'll even Odin.. with sooooo much more to offer?? Ok. Thanks for this post honestly. Because it's not a rant. I can tell the op had sat with these champs.. and looked at they're history with other champs.. and just questions it.. so thanks for that.. i think these kind of posts are helpful in bridging the gap between diehard kabam lovers who just take it and are happy.. as opposed to the kabam fans who just wanna see another great champ.. plain and simple. So thats ok with me...

altavista

Emilia90 said:

FrostGiantLord said:

I'm really disappointed by the champ releases this year. Lots of mediocre champs that can't really find their place in the meta with other champs that just do their job better than them. Hopefully the champ releases in the latter part of the year get better

Definitely an interesting choice on their part. Battlegrounds is a big focus for the big spenders and they could milk everyone with great new champs but idk who’s dropping money on mid like NorthStar

I don't know if it is a choice or not. The difference in champions this year could be on purpose, or it could be a knock-on effect of layoffs that are impacting developers. Quality and focus could definitely take a hit if there are layoffs of employees that were involved in various aspects of champion design.

In terms of the whole "BG-designed champions vs Non-BG-designed champions" debate, I think that is a wrong stance to take.

Champions should be designed to be fun. I understand that is subjective, especially when looking at different game modes, but Kabam has been able to hit that mark fairly well throughout the previous years.

Fun designed champions should be where:
1. On offense, it feels rewarding to play as (either being high damage, have a good flow state, or handle previously difficult interactions with a safety net, or a combination of all three)
2. On defense, it feels rewarding to defeat (either by skill, or using a decent amount of champions as counters).

In 2023, my favorite champion is Vox. Vox has a very good flow state and feels very satisfying to play as. I used to think Onslaught was not a fun designed defender, but learning how to skillfully defeat him in SoS, he feels rewarding to defeat. Also, this fun aspect isn't limited to a BG worldview. Onslaught is fun to encounter both in BG and in SoS for example, and Vox is fun to use for questing and in BGs as needed.

It seems like 2024 champions have been designed where:
1. On offense, it feels rewarding to play as (either being high damage, have a good flow state, or handle previously difficult interactions with a safety net)
2. On defense, it feels rewarding to defeat (either by skill, or using a decent amount of champions as counters).

Regardless of whether these champions are good/bad in questing vs BGs, I think the majority of the 2024 champions have gotten a bit too niche in what they are designed for. As an example, the Serpent only seems 'fun' to have as a defender in BGs. The 'fun' facing him as a defender in Questing seems to be much less, and using him on offense just feels tedious due to poor flow and low damage.

Honestly, aside from Dust and Ironheart, if the rest of 2024 champions were deleted from the game I wouldn't care as they just don't seem fun to have or encounter for questing/BG deck.