Well they start like this and make every other science champ counter purify. Look at the cosmic class, almost everyone released these days have a way around nullify/neutralize.
I have no issues with encouraging players to use less popular methods (tranquilize) to counter stuff.
It's not about whether he is difficult to fight or unfair defender, Which he isn't. It's about messing class relationships by introducing abilities that doesn't even need to be in his kit. He won't lose a inch of his value even if his debuffs can be purified cleansed. It's just that they start like this and make every subsequent Science champ counter purify (like the cosmics who counter nullify ) like I already said.
You are the one not paying attention to what I'm saying. It's just a unnecessary ability imo.
My biggest complaint is to see the first champ who directly counters cleanse is a science champ and not a mutant one. Y'all can label me whatever you want but you can't disagree with this statement
Its quite bad to know the first class to counter cleanse is a science which should always be countered by skills and as u said with cosmic every new one has a way around mystic nullify powers which i personally dislike as the mystic class should be countering cosmic not cosmics countering mystics
There is zero reason for hus debuffs to shut purify/cleanse. Stop messing with class relationships tbh. If he is going to shut purify, atleast make it only against non skill champs.
It's a shame power dissolve only works when ability power is reduced to zero. He can't deal power dissolve damage to serpent.
Honestly I expected some way for him to place regen and power gain effects on opponent and reverse them. Really a missed opportunity.
He looks ugly
The class relationships are the same. Literally any character can get rid of his debuffs perfectly fine, you can avoid them entirely if you don't use lights, and his best counters are still skill champs. Looks like mantis, chee'ilth, kraven and Kate will be good
But the reason to make his debuffs not purifiable? There isn't even any mutant champ who can prevent cleanse, But we got a science champ who can prevent cleanse already. Lol.
Yes there are some skill champs who work against him, But if his debuffs are going to be immune to purify/cleanse, atleast make it only for non skill champs.
Because as with literally any cosmic defender he becomes worthless if any champion with a nullify can shut them down entirely. A character needing a specific playstyle that can be done with any character to defeat isn't bad design
I partially agree with this, But nowadays you can see almost every cosmic released since galan has a way to shut down nullify or neutralize effect, I'm just afraid this might happen to Science class vs purify/cleanse.
Yeah, 1 or the other, but not both. This game has always been about needing to build a big roster to counter all things, if some champs don't require new abilities to counter then the necessity for new attackers is non existent
Well they start like this and make every other science champ counter purify. Look at the cosmic class, almost everyone released these days have a way around nullify/neutralize.
I have no issues with encouraging players to use less popular methods (tranquilize) to counter stuff.
It's not about whether he is difficult to fight or unfair defender, Which he isn't. It's about messing class relationships by introducing abilities that doesn't even need to be in his kit. He won't lose a inch of his value even if his debuffs can be purified cleansed. It's just that they start like this and make every subsequent Science champ counter purify (like the cosmics who counter nullify ) like I already said.
You are the one not paying attention to what I'm saying. It's just a unnecessary ability imo.
My biggest complaint is to see the first champ who directly counters cleanse is a science champ and not a mutant one. Y'all can label me whatever you want but you can't disagree with this statement
Its quite bad to know the first class to counter cleanse is a science which should always be countered by skills and as u said with cosmic every new one has a way around mystic nullify powers which i personally dislike as the mystic class should be countering cosmic not cosmics countering mystics
MYSTICS STILL COUNTER COSMICS
a champion needing to be countered by neutralise over nullify or vice versa doesn't mean they counter the mystic class, it means you need specific mystic characters to counter them. There is not 1 character in the game that counters every single member of the class they are good against, and that's how the game should work. If they didn't add neutralise and therefore nullify immunity on cosmic then there would be no reason to level up any mystic champ other than scarlet witch
Well they start like this and make every other science champ counter purify. Look at the cosmic class, almost everyone released these days have a way around nullify/neutralize.
I have no issues with encouraging players to use less popular methods (tranquilize) to counter stuff.
It's not about whether he is difficult to fight or unfair defender, Which he isn't. It's about messing class relationships by introducing abilities that doesn't even need to be in his kit. He won't lose a inch of his value even if his debuffs can be purified cleansed. It's just that they start like this and make every subsequent Science champ counter purify (like the cosmics who counter nullify ) like I already said.
You are the one not paying attention to what I'm saying. It's just a unnecessary ability imo.
My biggest complaint is to see the first champ who directly counters cleanse is a science champ and not a mutant one. Y'all can label me whatever you want but you can't disagree with this statement
Its quite bad to know the first class to counter cleanse is a science which should always be countered by skills and as u said with cosmic every new one has a way around mystic nullify powers which i personally dislike as the mystic class should be countering cosmic not cosmics countering mystics
MYSTICS STILL COUNTER COSMICS
a champion needing to be countered by neutralise over nullify or vice versa doesn't mean they counter the mystic class, it means you need specific mystic characters to counter them. There is not 1 character in the game that counters every single member of the class they are good against, and that's how the game should work. If they didn't add neutralise and therefore nullify immunity on cosmic then there would be no reason to level up any mystic champ other than scarlet witch
Well there are only a few hard Serpent counters who are mystic, and even with the best counter, Serpent is still one of the best defenders
Well they start like this and make every other science champ counter purify. Look at the cosmic class, almost everyone released these days have a way around nullify/neutralize.
I have no issues with encouraging players to use less popular methods (tranquilize) to counter stuff.
It's not about whether he is difficult to fight or unfair defender, Which he isn't. It's about messing class relationships by introducing abilities that doesn't even need to be in his kit. He won't lose a inch of his value even if his debuffs can be purified cleansed. It's just that they start like this and make every subsequent Science champ counter purify (like the cosmics who counter nullify ) like I already said.
You are the one not paying attention to what I'm saying. It's just a unnecessary ability imo.
My biggest complaint is to see the first champ who directly counters cleanse is a science champ and not a mutant one. Y'all can label me whatever you want but you can't disagree with this statement
Its quite bad to know the first class to counter cleanse is a science which should always be countered by skills and as u said with cosmic every new one has a way around mystic nullify powers which i personally dislike as the mystic class should be countering cosmic not cosmics countering mystics
MYSTICS STILL COUNTER COSMICS
a champion needing to be countered by neutralise over nullify or vice versa doesn't mean they counter the mystic class, it means you need specific mystic characters to counter them. There is not 1 character in the game that counters every single member of the class they are good against, and that's how the game should work. If they didn't add neutralise and therefore nullify immunity on cosmic then there would be no reason to level up any mystic champ other than scarlet witch
Well there are only a few hard Serpent counters who are mystic, and even with the best counter, Serpent is still one of the best defenders
Serpent is hard because he’s literally immune to everything and has massive damage resistance and regen and power gain. Kushala, Werewolf, and Chavez are probably his best counters, and outside the mystic class, very few champs can even put a dent in serpent. I’ve seen Wiccan, Sym, and Tigra take him out well too. All of his best counters are mystics lol
Well they start like this and make every other science champ counter purify. Look at the cosmic class, almost everyone released these days have a way around nullify/neutralize.
I have no issues with encouraging players to use less popular methods (tranquilize) to counter stuff.
It's not about whether he is difficult to fight or unfair defender, Which he isn't. It's about messing class relationships by introducing abilities that doesn't even need to be in his kit. He won't lose a inch of his value even if his debuffs can be purified cleansed. It's just that they start like this and make every subsequent Science champ counter purify (like the cosmics who counter nullify ) like I already said.
You are the one not paying attention to what I'm saying. It's just a unnecessary ability imo.
My biggest complaint is to see the first champ who directly counters cleanse is a science champ and not a mutant one. Y'all can label me whatever you want but you can't disagree with this statement
Its quite bad to know the first class to counter cleanse is a science which should always be countered by skills and as u said with cosmic every new one has a way around mystic nullify powers which i personally dislike as the mystic class should be countering cosmic not cosmics countering mystics
MYSTICS STILL COUNTER COSMICS
a champion needing to be countered by neutralise over nullify or vice versa doesn't mean they counter the mystic class, it means you need specific mystic characters to counter them. There is not 1 character in the game that counters every single member of the class they are good against, and that's how the game should work. If they didn't add neutralise and therefore nullify immunity on cosmic then there would be no reason to level up any mystic champ other than scarlet witch
Well there are only a few hard Serpent counters who are mystic, and even with the best counter, Serpent is still one of the best defenders
Serpent is hard because he’s literally immune to everything and has massive damage resistance and regen and power gain. Kushala, Werewolf, and Chavez are probably his best counters, and outside the mystic class, very few champs can even put a dent in serpent. I’ve seen Wiccan, Sym, and Tigra take him out well too. All of his best counters are mystics lol
Doom as well due to his power and buff control, though he isn’t the fastest in BGs
U can view kit and they said in recommended masteries despair so yeah he is gonna be very potent regen reversal
If it does stack, as @ItsClobberinTime said, then he will probably be the single best heal reversal champion, even better than Sandman, Void, Wasp, Mr Fantastic, etc.
U can view kit and they said in recommended masteries despair so yeah he is gonna be very potent regen reversal
If it does stack, as @ItsClobberinTime said, then he will probably be the single best heal reversal champion, even better than Sandman, Void, Wasp, Mr Fantastic, etc.
It says despair so yes he will be the best heal reversal now
Well they start like this and make every other science champ counter purify. Look at the cosmic class, almost everyone released these days have a way around nullify/neutralize.
I have no issues with encouraging players to use less popular methods (tranquilize) to counter stuff.
It's not about whether he is difficult to fight or unfair defender, Which he isn't. It's about messing class relationships by introducing abilities that doesn't even need to be in his kit. He won't lose a inch of his value even if his debuffs can be purified cleansed. It's just that they start like this and make every subsequent Science champ counter purify (like the cosmics who counter nullify ) like I already said.
You are the one not paying attention to what I'm saying. It's just a unnecessary ability imo.
My biggest complaint is to see the first champ who directly counters cleanse is a science champ and not a mutant one. Y'all can label me whatever you want but you can't disagree with this statement
Its quite bad to know the first class to counter cleanse is a science which should always be countered by skills and as u said with cosmic every new one has a way around mystic nullify powers which i personally dislike as the mystic class should be countering cosmic not cosmics countering mystics
MYSTICS STILL COUNTER COSMICS
a champion needing to be countered by neutralise over nullify or vice versa doesn't mean they counter the mystic class, it means you need specific mystic characters to counter them. There is not 1 character in the game that counters every single member of the class they are good against, and that's how the game should work. If they didn't add neutralise and therefore nullify immunity on cosmic then there would be no reason to level up any mystic champ other than scarlet witch
Well there are only a few hard Serpent counters who are mystic, and even with the best counter, Serpent is still one of the best defenders
OK and? I didn't say that mystic champs are always going to be able to fully counter cosmics, I just said that the idea that some champs being immune to a single form of buff manipulation means they're destroying the class system is ridiculous
Well they start like this and make every other science champ counter purify. Look at the cosmic class, almost everyone released these days have a way around nullify/neutralize.
I have no issues with encouraging players to use less popular methods (tranquilize) to counter stuff.
It's not about whether he is difficult to fight or unfair defender, Which he isn't. It's about messing class relationships by introducing abilities that doesn't even need to be in his kit. He won't lose a inch of his value even if his debuffs can be purified cleansed. It's just that they start like this and make every subsequent Science champ counter purify (like the cosmics who counter nullify ) like I already said.
You are the one not paying attention to what I'm saying. It's just a unnecessary ability imo.
My biggest complaint is to see the first champ who directly counters cleanse is a science champ and not a mutant one. Y'all can label me whatever you want but you can't disagree with this statement
Its quite bad to know the first class to counter cleanse is a science which should always be countered by skills and as u said with cosmic every new one has a way around mystic nullify powers which i personally dislike as the mystic class should be countering cosmic not cosmics countering mystics
MYSTICS STILL COUNTER COSMICS
a champion needing to be countered by neutralise over nullify or vice versa doesn't mean they counter the mystic class, it means you need specific mystic characters to counter them. There is not 1 character in the game that counters every single member of the class they are good against, and that's how the game should work. If they didn't add neutralise and therefore nullify immunity on cosmic then there would be no reason to level up any mystic champ other than scarlet witch
Well there are only a few hard Serpent counters who are mystic, and even with the best counter, Serpent is still one of the best defenders
OK and? I didn't say that mystic champs are always going to be able to fully counter cosmics, I just said that the idea that some champs being immune to a single form of buff manipulation means they're destroying the class system is ridiculous
It’s because they take away the traditional methods used to counter those champions. Like what if we had a mystic champ who is debuff immune? Or a skill champ who can remove passive effects off themselves? Or a cosmic who is buff immune? Galan was the first of those champions and we are seeing more of that
U can view kit and they said in recommended masteries despair so yeah he is gonna be very potent regen reversal
If it does stack, as @ItsClobberinTime said, then he will probably be the single best heal reversal champion, even better than Sandman, Void, Wasp, Mr Fantastic, etc.
There's another thing I didn't take into account yesterday though, does WP scale with modified health or does it work only with base health? There are two options here now, either WP doesn't scale with modified health and Leader is mid cause he'd only be dealing 1.4k damage per second by reversing WP, or it does and he's CGR level of strong cause he'd be dealing 6k damage per second by reversing WP. I'm gonna go with option one but I'm not 100% sure here so we'll have to test it once he's out, I just highly doubt Kabam would release a massive nuke like that nowadays.
There is zero reason for hus debuffs to shut purify/cleanse. Stop messing with class relationships tbh. If he is going to shut purify, atleast make it only against non skill champs.
It's a shame power dissolve only works when ability power is reduced to zero. He can't deal power dissolve damage to serpent.
Honestly I expected some way for him to place regen and power gain effects on opponent and reverse them. Really a missed opportunity.
He looks ugly
The class relationships are the same. Literally any character can get rid of his debuffs perfectly fine, you can avoid them entirely if you don't use lights, and his best counters are still skill champs. Looks like mantis, chee'ilth, kraven and Kate will be good
But the reason to make his debuffs not purifiable? There isn't even any mutant champ who can prevent cleanse, But we got a science champ who can prevent cleanse already. Lol.
Yes there are some skill champs who work against him, But if his debuffs are going to be immune to purify/cleanse, atleast make it only for non skill champs.
Because as with literally any cosmic defender he becomes worthless if any champion with a nullify can shut them down entirely. A character needing a specific playstyle that can be done with any character to defeat isn't bad design
I partially agree with this, But nowadays you can see almost every cosmic released since galan has a way to shut down nullify or neutralize effect, I'm just afraid this might happen to Science class vs purify/cleanse.
This conversation is so off the mark because Leader does not punish skill champions. Look:
This interaction doesn’t punish skill champions, it rewards them. Now you don’t even need to bring a debuff shrugging skill champ to the fight in order to capitalize on the class relationship. Leader just moves the counterplay from his opponent’s kit into his own.
This isn’t a “Galan immune to neutralize” type interaction, it’s a “Vox/CMM take burst damage against most mystics” type interaction. Smart play with any skill champ will turn Leader into a potato. Railing against that is asking for him to be made more potent.
Furthermore the idea that Leader is “the first champ to punish cleanse” is just blatantly wrong. Several mutants punish cleanse, they just don’t turn it off completely.
Yes wicket that's why I said he is the first "direct cleanse counter".
It's not that he is tough in defense or something, cuz I don't think he is a great defender or some, It's just my frustration of Making champs bypass effects that usually cripple them, in a VERY DIRECT WAY, like this guy or galan.
I don't mind one or two champs bypassing class relationships, like onslaught, But if this becomes a regular issue, like Cosmic champ nowadays being immune to mystic effects, that'll suck.
Yes wicket that's why I said he is the first "direct cleanse counter".
It's not that he is tough in defense or something, cuz I don't think he is a great defender or some, It's just my frustration of Making champs bypass effects that usually cripple them, in a VERY DIRECT WAY, like this guy or galan.
I don't mind one or two champs bypassing class relationships, like onslaught, But if this becomes a regular issue, like Cosmic champ nowadays being immune to mystic effects, that'll suck.
And one after another more of that class will bypass it meaning more science will have anti cleanse built in if running offensively
There is zero reason for hus debuffs to shut purify/cleanse. Stop messing with class relationships tbh. If he is going to shut purify, atleast make it only against non skill champs.
It's a shame power dissolve only works when ability power is reduced to zero. He can't deal power dissolve damage to serpent.
Honestly I expected some way for him to place regen and power gain effects on opponent and reverse them. Really a missed opportunity.
He looks ugly
The class relationships are the same. Literally any character can get rid of his debuffs perfectly fine, you can avoid them entirely if you don't use lights, and his best counters are still skill champs. Looks like mantis, chee'ilth, kraven and Kate will be good
But the reason to make his debuffs not purifiable? There isn't even any mutant champ who can prevent cleanse, But we got a science champ who can prevent cleanse already. Lol.
Yes there are some skill champs who work against him, But if his debuffs are going to be immune to purify/cleanse, atleast make it only for non skill champs.
Because as with literally any cosmic defender he becomes worthless if any champion with a nullify can shut them down entirely. A character needing a specific playstyle that can be done with any character to defeat isn't bad design
I partially agree with this, But nowadays you can see almost every cosmic released since galan has a way to shut down nullify or neutralize effect, I'm just afraid this might happen to Science class vs purify/cleanse.
This conversation is so off the mark because Leader does not punish skill champions. Look:
This interaction doesn’t punish skill champions, it rewards them. Now you don’t even need to bring a debuff shrugging skill champ to the fight in order to capitalize on the class relationship. Leader just moves the counterplay from his opponent’s kit into his own.
This isn’t a “Galan immune to neutralize” type interaction, it’s a “Vox/CMM take burst damage against most mystics” type interaction. Smart play with any skill champ will turn Leader into a potato. Railing against that is asking for him to be made more potent.
Furthermore the idea that Leader is “the first champ to punish cleanse” is just blatantly wrong. Several mutants punish cleanse, they just don’t turn it off completely.
True, but he might be annoying still due to his fast specials, and especially on certain nodes where the defender can go unstoppable or in a way affect the overall fight. DLL did say that his specials do try to push you towards or away from the door
Yes wicket that's why I said he is the first "direct cleanse counter".
It's not that he is tough in defense or something, cuz I don't think he is a great defender or some, It's just my frustration of Making champs bypass effects that usually cripple them, in a VERY DIRECT WAY, like this guy or galan.
I don't mind one or two champs bypassing class relationships, like onslaught, But if this becomes a regular issue, like Cosmic champ nowadays being immune to mystic effects, that'll suck.
I think it should depend entirely on how strong the defender's abilities are. Serpent for example, the fact that you can't nullify his death immunity buff when he's already so unbearably strong with everything else in his kit is stupid. Leader, he's just a tank, and like Wicket said it's not like every skill ability doesn't work on him just some of them. I don't really think Leader warrants such an easy way to shut him down when he has nothing going for him other than the protections.
Well they start like this and make every other science champ counter purify. Look at the cosmic class, almost everyone released these days have a way around nullify/neutralize.
I have no issues with encouraging players to use less popular methods (tranquilize) to counter stuff.
It's not about whether he is difficult to fight or unfair defender, Which he isn't. It's about messing class relationships by introducing abilities that doesn't even need to be in his kit. He won't lose a inch of his value even if his debuffs can be purified cleansed. It's just that they start like this and make every subsequent Science champ counter purify (like the cosmics who counter nullify ) like I already said.
You are the one not paying attention to what I'm saying. It's just a unnecessary ability imo.
My biggest complaint is to see the first champ who directly counters cleanse is a science champ and not a mutant one. Y'all can label me whatever you want but you can't disagree with this statement
Its quite bad to know the first class to counter cleanse is a science which should always be countered by skills and as u said with cosmic every new one has a way around mystic nullify powers which i personally dislike as the mystic class should be countering cosmic not cosmics countering mystics
MYSTICS STILL COUNTER COSMICS
a champion needing to be countered by neutralise over nullify or vice versa doesn't mean they counter the mystic class, it means you need specific mystic characters to counter them. There is not 1 character in the game that counters every single member of the class they are good against, and that's how the game should work. If they didn't add neutralise and therefore nullify immunity on cosmic then there would be no reason to level up any mystic champ other than scarlet witch
Well there are only a few hard Serpent counters who are mystic, and even with the best counter, Serpent is still one of the best defenders
OK and? I didn't say that mystic champs are always going to be able to fully counter cosmics, I just said that the idea that some champs being immune to a single form of buff manipulation means they're destroying the class system is ridiculous
It’s because they take away the traditional methods used to counter those champions. Like what if we had a mystic champ who is debuff immune? Or a skill champ who can remove passive effects off themselves? Or a cosmic who is buff immune? Galan was the first of those champions and we are seeing more of that
Yeah but that isn't happening. Galan was the first, but he's still very easily counterable with neutralise or just knocking him down with specials. They aren't taking away these methods, they're just adding new ones.
Sandman is bleed immune, that doesn't mean he destroys the skill class
Yes wicket that's why I said he is the first "direct cleanse counter".
It's not that he is tough in defense or something, cuz I don't think he is a great defender or some, It's just my frustration of Making champs bypass effects that usually cripple them, in a VERY DIRECT WAY, like this guy or galan.
I don't mind one or two champs bypassing class relationships, like onslaught, But if this becomes a regular issue, like Cosmic champ nowadays being immune to mystic effects, that'll suck.
And one after another more of that class will bypass it meaning more science will have anti cleanse built in if running offensively
Yes wicket that's why I said he is the first "direct cleanse counter".
It's not that he is tough in defense or something, cuz I don't think he is a great defender or some, It's just my frustration of Making champs bypass effects that usually cripple them, in a VERY DIRECT WAY, like this guy or galan.
I don't mind one or two champs bypassing class relationships, like onslaught, But if this becomes a regular issue, like Cosmic champ nowadays being immune to mystic effects, that'll suck.
No effect has crippled leader previously because he's a new character.
Yes wicket that's why I said he is the first "direct cleanse counter".
It's not that he is tough in defense or something, cuz I don't think he is a great defender or some, It's just my frustration of Making champs bypass effects that usually cripple them, in a VERY DIRECT WAY, like this guy or galan.
I don't mind one or two champs bypassing class relationships, like onslaught, But if this becomes a regular issue, like Cosmic champ nowadays being immune to mystic effects, that'll suck.
And one after another more of that class will bypass it meaning more science will have anti cleanse built in if running offensively
Yes wicket that's why I said he is the first "direct cleanse counter".
It's not that he is tough in defense or something, cuz I don't think he is a great defender or some, It's just my frustration of Making champs bypass effects that usually cripple them, in a VERY DIRECT WAY, like this guy or galan.
I don't mind one or two champs bypassing class relationships, like onslaught, But if this becomes a regular issue, like Cosmic champ nowadays being immune to mystic effects, that'll suck.
And one after another more of that class will bypass it meaning more science will have anti cleanse built in if running offensively
Anti venom has had this for like 3 years
Where as nothing in kit says he will
Ngl I could have sworn his klyntar debuff wasn't affected by ability accuracy or purification
It’s because they take away the traditional methods used to counter those champions. Like what if we had a mystic champ who is debuff immune? Or a skill champ who can remove passive effects off themselves? Or a cosmic who is buff immune? Galan was the first of those champions and we are seeing more of that
I think Kabam typically pilots new 'class advantage ignoring' abilities in the countered class as a way to sell excitement for new champions.
Like you mentioned, (Cosmic) Galan ignored (Mystic) nullify. But other examples include: (Skill) Cleanse ignoring (Mutant) debuff shrug counter. Tech (like Nimrod) having (Cosmic) armor break immunity. For more niche approaches, Absorbing Man with synergy or White Tiger have ways of manipulating debuffs (counters Science).
There are a lot more examples, but I think the main problem is that Kabam is giving everyone the ability to ignore class disadvantage as opposed to being more judicious in its approach. This is probably at the crux of your complaint.
For example, 2022 introduced Neutralize with Rintrah and Wiccan, and then every 2023 Cosmic champion essentially ignores Neutralize. 2024 only as the Cosmic Serpent, but even he has Fate Seal immunity in addition to benefiting when Nullify occurs. That is too much usage of the "ignore class disadvantage" card.
Edit: Funnily enough, saw that Superior Iron Man seems to have the increased AA thing going on, so yet another Mystic countering ability in a Cosmic. So we are still pretty much 100% from 2023-2024 with Cosmics having an ability that counters Mystics.
It’s because they take away the traditional methods used to counter those champions. Like what if we had a mystic champ who is debuff immune? Or a skill champ who can remove passive effects off themselves? Or a cosmic who is buff immune? Galan was the first of those champions and we are seeing more of that
I think Kabam typically pilots new 'class advantage ignoring' abilities in the countered class as a way to sell excitement for new champions.
Like you mentioned, (Cosmic) Galan ignored (Mystic) nullify. But other examples include: (Skill) Cleanse ignoring (Mutant) debuff shrug counter. Tech (like Nimrod) having (Cosmic) armor break immunity. For more niche approaches, Absorbing Man with synergy or White Tiger have ways of manipulating debuffs (counters Science).
There are a lot more examples, but I think the main problem is that Kabam is giving everyone the ability to ignore class disadvantage as opposed to being more judicious in its approach. This is probably at the crux of your complaint.
For example, 2022 introduced Neutralize with Rintrah and Wiccan, and then every 2023 Cosmic champion essentially ignores Neutralize. 2024 only as the Cosmic Serpent, but even he has Fate Seal immunity in addition to benefiting when Nullify occurs. That is too much usage of the "ignore class disadvantage" card.
Edit: Funnily enough, saw that Superior Iron Man seems to have the increased AA thing going on, so yet another Mystic countering ability in a Cosmic. So we are still pretty much 100% from 2023-2024 with Cosmics having an ability that counters Mystics.
This will also make him a great Domino counter, along with the fact that he has energy resistance as well as the Superior Instinct buff that allows him to parry non contacts.
First impressions, if you have to go for sp3 for matchups with no regen or power gain, he will probably be a slower worse Titania cause you'll be wasting a ton of time baiting sp1s so I don't see why anyone would even use him. For me it'll all depend on how well he can cook Serpent, if he's a solid counter I'll take it, if he's not then this is just another L champ this year and I won't be popping any Titans when the pool gets updated.
As for the wp mastery getting shut down and purify/cleanse not working I don't really care, he doesn't seem like an overpowered defender anyways. I just wanna know how fast he will be in BGs.
The green door does make them more aggressive and allow for intercepts, so the ramp may be faster than usual, but we’ll see
Yes but that won't make the fight quicker cause you'll also be constantly baiting sp1s, that's the main reason Punk is so slow and he sucks. You're so busy baiting sp1s what could've been a 40 sec fight turns into 60. Leader might be slightly quicker since he shuts down MD completely but I doubt he'll be fast enough even then, we'll see though.
Well TItania also has to bait specials doesn't she?
First impressions, if you have to go for sp3 for matchups with no regen or power gain, he will probably be a slower worse Titania cause you'll be wasting a ton of time baiting sp1s so I don't see why anyone would even use him. For me it'll all depend on how well he can cook Serpent, if he's a solid counter I'll take it, if he's not then this is just another L champ this year and I won't be popping any Titans when the pool gets updated.
As for the wp mastery getting shut down and purify/cleanse not working I don't really care, he doesn't seem like an overpowered defender anyways. I just wanna know how fast he will be in BGs.
The green door does make them more aggressive and allow for intercepts, so the ramp may be faster than usual, but we’ll see
Yes but that won't make the fight quicker cause you'll also be constantly baiting sp1s, that's the main reason Punk is so slow and he sucks. You're so busy baiting sp1s what could've been a 40 sec fight turns into 60. Leader might be slightly quicker since he shuts down MD completely but I doubt he'll be fast enough even then, we'll see though.
Well TItania also has to bait specials doesn't she?
Yeah but you only end up baiting one or two sp2s not six sp1s
First impressions, if you have to go for sp3 for matchups with no regen or power gain, he will probably be a slower worse Titania cause you'll be wasting a ton of time baiting sp1s so I don't see why anyone would even use him. For me it'll all depend on how well he can cook Serpent, if he's a solid counter I'll take it, if he's not then this is just another L champ this year and I won't be popping any Titans when the pool gets updated.
As for the wp mastery getting shut down and purify/cleanse not working I don't really care, he doesn't seem like an overpowered defender anyways. I just wanna know how fast he will be in BGs.
The green door does make them more aggressive and allow for intercepts, so the ramp may be faster than usual, but we’ll see
Yes but that won't make the fight quicker cause you'll also be constantly baiting sp1s, that's the main reason Punk is so slow and he sucks. You're so busy baiting sp1s what could've been a 40 sec fight turns into 60. Leader might be slightly quicker since he shuts down MD completely but I doubt he'll be fast enough even then, we'll see though.
Well TItania also has to bait specials doesn't she?
Yeah but you only end up baiting one or two sp2s not six sp1s
Trappy has a good vid on how to play her with pretty much no sp baits too
It’s because they take away the traditional methods used to counter those champions. Like what if we had a mystic champ who is debuff immune? Or a skill champ who can remove passive effects off themselves? Or a cosmic who is buff immune? Galan was the first of those champions and we are seeing more of that
I think Kabam typically pilots new 'class advantage ignoring' abilities in the countered class as a way to sell excitement for new champions.
Like you mentioned, (Cosmic) Galan ignored (Mystic) nullify. But other examples include: (Skill) Cleanse ignoring (Mutant) debuff shrug counter. Tech (like Nimrod) having (Cosmic) armor break immunity. For more niche approaches, Absorbing Man with synergy or White Tiger have ways of manipulating debuffs (counters Science).
There are a lot more examples, but I think the main problem is that Kabam is giving everyone the ability to ignore class disadvantage as opposed to being more judicious in its approach. This is probably at the crux of your complaint.
For example, 2022 introduced Neutralize with Rintrah and Wiccan, and then every 2023 Cosmic champion essentially ignores Neutralize. 2024 only as the Cosmic Serpent, but even he has Fate Seal immunity in addition to benefiting when Nullify occurs. That is too much usage of the "ignore class disadvantage" card.
Edit: Funnily enough, saw that Superior Iron Man seems to have the increased AA thing going on, so yet another Mystic countering ability in a Cosmic. So we are still pretty much 100% from 2023-2024 with Cosmics having an ability that counters Mystics.
You're specifically ignoring vox who isn't nullify immune and gets absolutely wrecked by it.
If they countered all buff control then you'd have a point, but there isn't a champion in the game immune to all forms of mystic buff manipulation so the idea that they simply counter mystics is incredibly misleading.
The reason they do this isn't to excite people, leader is still going to be terrible against skill champions, it literally just means that you can't shut down his entire kit with any shrug champion, but you still can with the right skill champions.
Remember in last month's stream how they said that their goal was to simplify?
They also said that in the roadmaps years ago.
Imagine being a noob trying to figure all of this out.
The game is moving this way. Soon anyone that came out 3 years ago won't be relevant because they'll work around whatever mechanic came out that year. It reminds me of Magic the Gathering - buy the new cards from the season or get left behind
I'm surprised they haven't banned certain years at this point.
Remember in last month's stream how they said that their goal was to simplify?
They also said that in the roadmaps years ago.
Imagine being a noob trying to figure all of this out.
The game is moving this way. Soon anyone that came out 3 years ago won't be relevant because they'll work around whatever mechanic came out that year. It reminds me of Magic the Gathering - buy the new cards from the season or get left behind
I'm surprised they haven't banned certain years at this point.
The kit really isn't that complex, and they never said champion kits will be simplified
Comments
a champion needing to be countered by neutralise over nullify or vice versa doesn't mean they counter the mystic class, it means you need specific mystic characters to counter them. There is not 1 character in the game that counters every single member of the class they are good against, and that's how the game should work. If they didn't add neutralise and therefore nullify immunity on cosmic then there would be no reason to level up any mystic champ other than scarlet witch
There are two options here now, either WP doesn't scale with modified health and Leader is mid cause he'd only be dealing 1.4k damage per second by reversing WP, or it does and he's CGR level of strong cause he'd be dealing 6k damage per second by reversing WP. I'm gonna go with option one but I'm not 100% sure here so we'll have to test it once he's out, I just highly doubt Kabam would release a massive nuke like that nowadays.
This interaction doesn’t punish skill champions, it rewards them. Now you don’t even need to bring a debuff shrugging skill champ to the fight in order to capitalize on the class relationship. Leader just moves the counterplay from his opponent’s kit into his own.
This isn’t a “Galan immune to neutralize” type interaction, it’s a “Vox/CMM take burst damage against most mystics” type interaction. Smart play with any skill champ will turn Leader into a potato. Railing against that is asking for him to be made more potent.
Furthermore the idea that Leader is “the first champ to punish cleanse” is just blatantly wrong. Several mutants punish cleanse, they just don’t turn it off completely.
It's not that he is tough in defense or something, cuz I don't think he is a great defender or some, It's just my frustration of Making champs bypass effects that usually cripple them, in a VERY DIRECT WAY, like this guy or galan.
I don't mind one or two champs bypassing class relationships, like onslaught, But if this becomes a regular issue, like Cosmic champ nowadays being immune to mystic effects, that'll suck.
Leader, he's just a tank, and like Wicket said it's not like every skill ability doesn't work on him just some of them. I don't really think Leader warrants such an easy way to shut him down when he has nothing going for him other than the protections.
Sandman is bleed immune, that doesn't mean he destroys the skill class
Like you mentioned, (Cosmic) Galan ignored (Mystic) nullify.
But other examples include:
(Skill) Cleanse ignoring (Mutant) debuff shrug counter.
Tech (like Nimrod) having (Cosmic) armor break immunity.
For more niche approaches, Absorbing Man with synergy or White Tiger have ways of manipulating debuffs (counters Science).
There are a lot more examples, but I think the main problem is that Kabam is giving everyone the ability to ignore class disadvantage as opposed to being more judicious in its approach. This is probably at the crux of your complaint.
For example, 2022 introduced Neutralize with Rintrah and Wiccan, and then every 2023 Cosmic champion essentially ignores Neutralize. 2024 only as the Cosmic Serpent, but even he has Fate Seal immunity in addition to benefiting when Nullify occurs. That is too much usage of the "ignore class disadvantage" card.
Edit: Funnily enough, saw that Superior Iron Man seems to have the increased AA thing going on, so yet another Mystic countering ability in a Cosmic. So we are still pretty much 100% from 2023-2024 with Cosmics having an ability that counters Mystics.
This will also make him a great Domino counter, along with the fact that he has energy resistance as well as the Superior Instinct buff that allows him to parry non contacts.
If they countered all buff control then you'd have a point, but there isn't a champion in the game immune to all forms of mystic buff manipulation so the idea that they simply counter mystics is incredibly misleading.
The reason they do this isn't to excite people, leader is still going to be terrible against skill champions, it literally just means that you can't shut down his entire kit with any shrug champion, but you still can with the right skill champions.
They also said that in the roadmaps years ago.
Imagine being a noob trying to figure all of this out.
The game is moving this way. Soon anyone that came out 3 years ago won't be relevant because they'll work around whatever mechanic came out that year. It reminds me of Magic the Gathering - buy the new cards from the season or get left behind
I'm surprised they haven't banned certain years at this point.