It’s because they take away the traditional methods used to counter those champions. Like what if we had a mystic champ who is debuff immune? Or a skill champ who can remove passive effects off themselves? Or a cosmic who is buff immune? Galan was the first of those champions and we are seeing more of that
I think Kabam typically pilots new 'class advantage ignoring' abilities in the countered class as a way to sell excitement for new champions.
Like you mentioned, (Cosmic) Galan ignored (Mystic) nullify. But other examples include: (Skill) Cleanse ignoring (Mutant) debuff shrug counter. Tech (like Nimrod) having (Cosmic) armor break immunity. For more niche approaches, Absorbing Man with synergy or White Tiger have ways of manipulating debuffs (counters Science).
There are a lot more examples, but I think the main problem is that Kabam is giving everyone the ability to ignore class disadvantage as opposed to being more judicious in its approach. This is probably at the crux of your complaint.
For example, 2022 introduced Neutralize with Rintrah and Wiccan, and then every 2023 Cosmic champion essentially ignores Neutralize. 2024 only as the Cosmic Serpent, but even he has Fate Seal immunity in addition to benefiting when Nullify occurs. That is too much usage of the "ignore class disadvantage" card.
Edit: Funnily enough, saw that Superior Iron Man seems to have the increased AA thing going on, so yet another Mystic countering ability in a Cosmic. So we are still pretty much 100% from 2023-2024 with Cosmics having an ability that counters Mystics.
You're specifically ignoring vox who isn't nullify immune and gets absolutely wrecked by it.
If they countered all buff control then you'd have a point, but there isn't a champion in the game immune to all forms of mystic buff manipulation so the idea that they simply counter mystics is incredibly misleading.
The reason they do this isn't to excite people, leader is still going to be terrible against skill champions, it literally just means that you can't shut down his entire kit with any shrug champion, but you still can with the right skill champions.
I’m not ignoring it, and frankly I think Vox is extremely well designed.
I said its about ignoring (facets of) class disadvantage, not countering the entire class. Like I said, 100% of Cosmic champions over the past two years ignore some facet of class disadvantage (in my example it is largely Neutralize).100% seems like overusing that ignore button.
What is odd is that new Non-Cosmic classes are designed without needing to ignore the traditional class disadvantage. Ironheart can still be easily deactivated by Cosmics; Bullseye doesnt specifically counter any historical Mutant strengths, Destroyer doesn’t specifically ignore Science abilities.
Imagine if all new Skill champions came out with -100% ability accuracy reduction on Prowess. Per your logic, this is not a problem because there are still Mutant champions who can still wreck those champions. My contention is that it is a problem that 100% of new skill champions ignore some facet of how Skill is supposed to be at a disadvantage against Mutant strengths.
Remember in last month's stream how they said that their goal was to simplify?
They also said that in the roadmaps years ago.
Imagine being a noob trying to figure all of this out.
The game is moving this way. Soon anyone that came out 3 years ago won't be relevant because they'll work around whatever mechanic came out that year. It reminds me of Magic the Gathering - buy the new cards from the season or get left behind
I'm surprised they haven't banned certain years at this point.
Great analogy, it is getting to that level of ridiculous. I love complex and deep interactions but we are getting to asinine levels of it.
“Sorrrry interrupts can’t work, you need a cancel-interupt-rebuttal to block my instant-cast in the past-now spell”
It’s because they take away the traditional methods used to counter those champions. Like what if we had a mystic champ who is debuff immune? Or a skill champ who can remove passive effects off themselves? Or a cosmic who is buff immune? Galan was the first of those champions and we are seeing more of that
I think Kabam typically pilots new 'class advantage ignoring' abilities in the countered class as a way to sell excitement for new champions.
Like you mentioned, (Cosmic) Galan ignored (Mystic) nullify. But other examples include: (Skill) Cleanse ignoring (Mutant) debuff shrug counter. Tech (like Nimrod) having (Cosmic) armor break immunity. For more niche approaches, Absorbing Man with synergy or White Tiger have ways of manipulating debuffs (counters Science).
There are a lot more examples, but I think the main problem is that Kabam is giving everyone the ability to ignore class disadvantage as opposed to being more judicious in its approach. This is probably at the crux of your complaint.
For example, 2022 introduced Neutralize with Rintrah and Wiccan, and then every 2023 Cosmic champion essentially ignores Neutralize. 2024 only as the Cosmic Serpent, but even he has Fate Seal immunity in addition to benefiting when Nullify occurs. That is too much usage of the "ignore class disadvantage" card.
Edit: Funnily enough, saw that Superior Iron Man seems to have the increased AA thing going on, so yet another Mystic countering ability in a Cosmic. So we are still pretty much 100% from 2023-2024 with Cosmics having an ability that counters Mystics.
You're specifically ignoring vox who isn't nullify immune and gets absolutely wrecked by it.
If they countered all buff control then you'd have a point, but there isn't a champion in the game immune to all forms of mystic buff manipulation so the idea that they simply counter mystics is incredibly misleading.
The reason they do this isn't to excite people, leader is still going to be terrible against skill champions, it literally just means that you can't shut down his entire kit with any shrug champion, but you still can with the right skill champions.
I’m not ignoring it, and frankly I think Vox is extremely well designed.
I said its about ignoring (facets of) class disadvantage, not countering the entire class. Like I said, 100% of Cosmic champions over the past two years ignore some facet of class disadvantage (in my example it is largely Neutralize).100% seems like overusing that ignore button.
What is odd is that new Non-Cosmic classes are designed without needing to ignore the traditional class disadvantage. Ironheart can still be easily deactivated by Cosmics; Bullseye doesnt specifically counter any historical Mutant strengths, Destroyer doesn’t specifically ignore Science abilities.
Imagine if all new Skill champions came out with -100% ability accuracy reduction on Prowess. Per your logic, this is not a problem because there are still Mutant champions who can still wreck those champions. My contention is that it is a problem that 100% of new skill champions ignore some facet of how Skill is supposed to be at a disadvantage against Mutant strengths.
They aren't ignoring facets of class advantage though? He is still best countered by skill champions in a variety of ways, he simply isn't able to have his entire kit shut down by agent venom lmao.
If they didn't add some kind of thing to each champion that made them not countable in the exact same way as every other champion of their class then there would be no necessity for new attackers. If serpent could be neutralised he would literally just not be a defender at all, it's a question of whether having to add immunity nodes to every boss just to make them not complete pushovers is better than creating kits that require different things to counter them.
Yall can pretend it isn't but this game is explicitly about roster development and building a wide variety of tools to counter all situations. Leader is basically just the first defender that's actively encouraged the use of tranquilise over other forms of debuff control and that's fine. The game isn't suddenly becoming lazy. The game survived mephisto having 0 counters upon his release, the game survived people not understanding how to fight penni, the game survived galan being nullify immune, and the game will survive with leaders debuffs not being able to be auto shrugged.
It’s because they take away the traditional methods used to counter those champions. Like what if we had a mystic champ who is debuff immune? Or a skill champ who can remove passive effects off themselves? Or a cosmic who is buff immune? Galan was the first of those champions and we are seeing more of that
I think Kabam typically pilots new 'class advantage ignoring' abilities in the countered class as a way to sell excitement for new champions.
Like you mentioned, (Cosmic) Galan ignored (Mystic) nullify. But other examples include: (Skill) Cleanse ignoring (Mutant) debuff shrug counter. Tech (like Nimrod) having (Cosmic) armor break immunity. For more niche approaches, Absorbing Man with synergy or White Tiger have ways of manipulating debuffs (counters Science).
There are a lot more examples, but I think the main problem is that Kabam is giving everyone the ability to ignore class disadvantage as opposed to being more judicious in its approach. This is probably at the crux of your complaint.
For example, 2022 introduced Neutralize with Rintrah and Wiccan, and then every 2023 Cosmic champion essentially ignores Neutralize. 2024 only as the Cosmic Serpent, but even he has Fate Seal immunity in addition to benefiting when Nullify occurs. That is too much usage of the "ignore class disadvantage" card.
Edit: Funnily enough, saw that Superior Iron Man seems to have the increased AA thing going on, so yet another Mystic countering ability in a Cosmic. So we are still pretty much 100% from 2023-2024 with Cosmics having an ability that counters Mystics.
You're specifically ignoring vox who isn't nullify immune and gets absolutely wrecked by it.
If they countered all buff control then you'd have a point, but there isn't a champion in the game immune to all forms of mystic buff manipulation so the idea that they simply counter mystics is incredibly misleading.
The reason they do this isn't to excite people, leader is still going to be terrible against skill champions, it literally just means that you can't shut down his entire kit with any shrug champion, but you still can with the right skill champions.
I’m not ignoring it, and frankly I think Vox is extremely well designed.
I said its about ignoring (facets of) class disadvantage, not countering the entire class. Like I said, 100% of Cosmic champions over the past two years ignore some facet of class disadvantage (in my example it is largely Neutralize).100% seems like overusing that ignore button.
What is odd is that new Non-Cosmic classes are designed without needing to ignore the traditional class disadvantage. Ironheart can still be easily deactivated by Cosmics; Bullseye doesnt specifically counter any historical Mutant strengths, Destroyer doesn’t specifically ignore Science abilities.
Imagine if all new Skill champions came out with -100% ability accuracy reduction on Prowess. Per your logic, this is not a problem because there are still Mutant champions who can still wreck those champions. My contention is that it is a problem that 100% of new skill champions ignore some facet of how Skill is supposed to be at a disadvantage against Mutant strengths.
They aren't ignoring facets of class advantage though? He is still best countered by skill champions in a variety of ways, he simply isn't able to have his entire kit shut down by agent venom lmao.
If they didn't add some kind of thing to each champion that made them not countable in the exact same way as every other champion of their class then there would be no necessity for new attackers. If serpent could be neutralised he would literally just not be a defender at all, it's a question of whether having to add immunity nodes to every boss just to make them not complete pushovers is better than creating kits that require different things to counter them.
Yall can pretend it isn't but this game is explicitly about roster development and building a wide variety of tools to counter all situations. Leader is basically just the first defender that's actively encouraged the use of tranquilise over other forms of debuff control and that's fine. The game isn't suddenly becoming lazy. The game survived mephisto having 0 counters upon his release, the game survived people not understanding how to fight penni, the game survived galan being nullify immune, and the game will survive with leaders debuffs not being able to be auto shrugged.
As we said though science should be countered by all of skills abilities as it makes it terrible if a class disadvantage can go toe to toe with a disadvantage by ignoring skill abilities it should always be skil counters science mutant counters skill mystic counters cosmic it shouldnt go in reverse like it has with cosmic vs mystic and now science vs skills because it means they now need to make a new ability for them classes to ignore them effects that shouldnt hinder them anyway
If they didn't add some kind of thing to each champion that made them not countable in the exact same way as every other champion of their class then there would be no necessity for new attackers. If serpent could be neutralised he would literally just not be a defender at all, it's a question of whether having to add immunity nodes to every boss just to make them not complete pushovers is better than creating kits that require different things to counter them.
You are totally wrong - Kabam has been able to release Non-Cosmic champions without needing to resort to adding an ability that ignores some facet of class disadvantage.
Bullseye does not need a Mutant countering ability to be a good defender. Northstar does not need a Tech countering ability to potentially have a niche in long form content. Photon did not need a Skill countering ability to be desirable. On and on and on - there is a ton of evidence that Kabam is able to make champions be desirable as new attackers/defenders without needing to resort to giving them class disadvantage countering abilities.
And again, my main contention is the close to 100% of new champions having class disadvantage countering abilities (mostly in Cosmics, but we will see what will happen post-Leader).
One-offs (like when Galan was first introduced) are understandable, but having every subsequent Cosmic champions essentially disregard various Mystic champions, is overusing that lazy design. The concern is that going forward, Kabam will begin to ignore the core Rock-Paper-Scissor concept and just start designing champions that essentially ignores classes, which would then call into question why are there class catalysts and class champion crystals if classes don't matter as much anymore.
It’s because they take away the traditional methods used to counter those champions. Like what if we had a mystic champ who is debuff immune? Or a skill champ who can remove passive effects off themselves? Or a cosmic who is buff immune? Galan was the first of those champions and we are seeing more of that
I think Kabam typically pilots new 'class advantage ignoring' abilities in the countered class as a way to sell excitement for new champions.
Like you mentioned, (Cosmic) Galan ignored (Mystic) nullify. But other examples include: (Skill) Cleanse ignoring (Mutant) debuff shrug counter. Tech (like Nimrod) having (Cosmic) armor break immunity. For more niche approaches, Absorbing Man with synergy or White Tiger have ways of manipulating debuffs (counters Science).
There are a lot more examples, but I think the main problem is that Kabam is giving everyone the ability to ignore class disadvantage as opposed to being more judicious in its approach. This is probably at the crux of your complaint.
For example, 2022 introduced Neutralize with Rintrah and Wiccan, and then every 2023 Cosmic champion essentially ignores Neutralize. 2024 only as the Cosmic Serpent, but even he has Fate Seal immunity in addition to benefiting when Nullify occurs. That is too much usage of the "ignore class disadvantage" card.
Edit: Funnily enough, saw that Superior Iron Man seems to have the increased AA thing going on, so yet another Mystic countering ability in a Cosmic. So we are still pretty much 100% from 2023-2024 with Cosmics having an ability that counters Mystics.
You're specifically ignoring vox who isn't nullify immune and gets absolutely wrecked by it.
If they countered all buff control then you'd have a point, but there isn't a champion in the game immune to all forms of mystic buff manipulation so the idea that they simply counter mystics is incredibly misleading.
The reason they do this isn't to excite people, leader is still going to be terrible against skill champions, it literally just means that you can't shut down his entire kit with any shrug champion, but you still can with the right skill champions.
I’m not ignoring it, and frankly I think Vox is extremely well designed.
I said its about ignoring (facets of) class disadvantage, not countering the entire class. Like I said, 100% of Cosmic champions over the past two years ignore some facet of class disadvantage (in my example it is largely Neutralize).100% seems like overusing that ignore button.
What is odd is that new Non-Cosmic classes are designed without needing to ignore the traditional class disadvantage. Ironheart can still be easily deactivated by Cosmics; Bullseye doesnt specifically counter any historical Mutant strengths, Destroyer doesn’t specifically ignore Science abilities.
Imagine if all new Skill champions came out with -100% ability accuracy reduction on Prowess. Per your logic, this is not a problem because there are still Mutant champions who can still wreck those champions. My contention is that it is a problem that 100% of new skill champions ignore some facet of how Skill is supposed to be at a disadvantage against Mutant strengths.
They aren't ignoring facets of class advantage though? He is still best countered by skill champions in a variety of ways, he simply isn't able to have his entire kit shut down by agent venom lmao.
If they didn't add some kind of thing to each champion that made them not countable in the exact same way as every other champion of their class then there would be no necessity for new attackers. If serpent could be neutralised he would literally just not be a defender at all, it's a question of whether having to add immunity nodes to every boss just to make them not complete pushovers is better than creating kits that require different things to counter them.
Yall can pretend it isn't but this game is explicitly about roster development and building a wide variety of tools to counter all situations. Leader is basically just the first defender that's actively encouraged the use of tranquilise over other forms of debuff control and that's fine. The game isn't suddenly becoming lazy. The game survived mephisto having 0 counters upon his release, the game survived people not understanding how to fight penni, the game survived galan being nullify immune, and the game will survive with leaders debuffs not being able to be auto shrugged.
As we said though science should be countered by all of skills abilities as it makes it terrible if a class disadvantage can go toe to toe with a disadvantage by ignoring skill abilities it should always be skil counters science mutant counters skill mystic counters cosmic it shouldnt go in reverse like it has with cosmic vs mystic and now science vs skills because it means they now need to make a new ability for them classes to ignore them effects that shouldnt hinder them anyway
You are arguing about a thing that doesn’t exist. Skill champions DO COUNTER LEADER. All of them! Even Moon Knight! It straight up says it in his kit that all skill champs shrug his debuffs at the rate of one per second if you play properly.
This is not a design that counters the class wheel. It is explicitly in keeping with the class wheel, it just does it in a way that is unfamiliar and has a skill ask. But this conversation is much ado about nothing.
It’s because they take away the traditional methods used to counter those champions. Like what if we had a mystic champ who is debuff immune? Or a skill champ who can remove passive effects off themselves? Or a cosmic who is buff immune? Galan was the first of those champions and we are seeing more of that
I think Kabam typically pilots new 'class advantage ignoring' abilities in the countered class as a way to sell excitement for new champions.
Like you mentioned, (Cosmic) Galan ignored (Mystic) nullify. But other examples include: (Skill) Cleanse ignoring (Mutant) debuff shrug counter. Tech (like Nimrod) having (Cosmic) armor break immunity. For more niche approaches, Absorbing Man with synergy or White Tiger have ways of manipulating debuffs (counters Science).
There are a lot more examples, but I think the main problem is that Kabam is giving everyone the ability to ignore class disadvantage as opposed to being more judicious in its approach. This is probably at the crux of your complaint.
For example, 2022 introduced Neutralize with Rintrah and Wiccan, and then every 2023 Cosmic champion essentially ignores Neutralize. 2024 only as the Cosmic Serpent, but even he has Fate Seal immunity in addition to benefiting when Nullify occurs. That is too much usage of the "ignore class disadvantage" card.
Edit: Funnily enough, saw that Superior Iron Man seems to have the increased AA thing going on, so yet another Mystic countering ability in a Cosmic. So we are still pretty much 100% from 2023-2024 with Cosmics having an ability that counters Mystics.
You're specifically ignoring vox who isn't nullify immune and gets absolutely wrecked by it.
If they countered all buff control then you'd have a point, but there isn't a champion in the game immune to all forms of mystic buff manipulation so the idea that they simply counter mystics is incredibly misleading.
The reason they do this isn't to excite people, leader is still going to be terrible against skill champions, it literally just means that you can't shut down his entire kit with any shrug champion, but you still can with the right skill champions.
I’m not ignoring it, and frankly I think Vox is extremely well designed.
I said its about ignoring (facets of) class disadvantage, not countering the entire class. Like I said, 100% of Cosmic champions over the past two years ignore some facet of class disadvantage (in my example it is largely Neutralize).100% seems like overusing that ignore button.
What is odd is that new Non-Cosmic classes are designed without needing to ignore the traditional class disadvantage. Ironheart can still be easily deactivated by Cosmics; Bullseye doesnt specifically counter any historical Mutant strengths, Destroyer doesn’t specifically ignore Science abilities.
Imagine if all new Skill champions came out with -100% ability accuracy reduction on Prowess. Per your logic, this is not a problem because there are still Mutant champions who can still wreck those champions. My contention is that it is a problem that 100% of new skill champions ignore some facet of how Skill is supposed to be at a disadvantage against Mutant strengths.
They aren't ignoring facets of class advantage though? He is still best countered by skill champions in a variety of ways, he simply isn't able to have his entire kit shut down by agent venom lmao.
If they didn't add some kind of thing to each champion that made them not countable in the exact same way as every other champion of their class then there would be no necessity for new attackers. If serpent could be neutralised he would literally just not be a defender at all, it's a question of whether having to add immunity nodes to every boss just to make them not complete pushovers is better than creating kits that require different things to counter them.
Yall can pretend it isn't but this game is explicitly about roster development and building a wide variety of tools to counter all situations. Leader is basically just the first defender that's actively encouraged the use of tranquilise over other forms of debuff control and that's fine. The game isn't suddenly becoming lazy. The game survived mephisto having 0 counters upon his release, the game survived people not understanding how to fight penni, the game survived galan being nullify immune, and the game will survive with leaders debuffs not being able to be auto shrugged.
As we said though science should be countered by all of skills abilities as it makes it terrible if a class disadvantage can go toe to toe with a disadvantage by ignoring skill abilities it should always be skil counters science mutant counters skill mystic counters cosmic it shouldnt go in reverse like it has with cosmic vs mystic and now science vs skills because it means they now need to make a new ability for them classes to ignore them effects that shouldnt hinder them anyway
You are arguing about a thing that doesn’t exist. Skill champions DO COUNTER LEADER. All of them! Even Moon Knight! It straight up says it in his kit that all skill champs shrug his debuffs at the rate of one per second if you play properly.
This is not a design that counters the class wheel. It is explicitly in keeping with the class wheel, it just does it in a way that is unfamiliar and has a skill ask. But this conversation is much ado about nothing.
Yes but cleanse and purify should still be a key thing of removing debuffs
From his kit “ Personal Debuffs are Severe Debuffs, preventing them from being removed by Purify or Cleanse” they are literally ignoring skill abilities
I think people are misunderstanding his kit. When an attacker stands on the green door, their debuffs are removed every 2 seconds, every one second for skill champs. So skill champs do counter him, but they counter him differently. The Leader doesn’t make the skill class useless against him, but rather the opposite.
Overall I am very excited to try him out both on attack, and fighting against him. Also if you haven’t noticed already, Chee’ilth will be one of the best counters, so if you haven’t ranked her up, do it
It’s because they take away the traditional methods used to counter those champions. Like what if we had a mystic champ who is debuff immune? Or a skill champ who can remove passive effects off themselves? Or a cosmic who is buff immune? Galan was the first of those champions and we are seeing more of that
I think Kabam typically pilots new 'class advantage ignoring' abilities in the countered class as a way to sell excitement for new champions.
Like you mentioned, (Cosmic) Galan ignored (Mystic) nullify. But other examples include: (Skill) Cleanse ignoring (Mutant) debuff shrug counter. Tech (like Nimrod) having (Cosmic) armor break immunity. For more niche approaches, Absorbing Man with synergy or White Tiger have ways of manipulating debuffs (counters Science).
There are a lot more examples, but I think the main problem is that Kabam is giving everyone the ability to ignore class disadvantage as opposed to being more judicious in its approach. This is probably at the crux of your complaint.
For example, 2022 introduced Neutralize with Rintrah and Wiccan, and then every 2023 Cosmic champion essentially ignores Neutralize. 2024 only as the Cosmic Serpent, but even he has Fate Seal immunity in addition to benefiting when Nullify occurs. That is too much usage of the "ignore class disadvantage" card.
Edit: Funnily enough, saw that Superior Iron Man seems to have the increased AA thing going on, so yet another Mystic countering ability in a Cosmic. So we are still pretty much 100% from 2023-2024 with Cosmics having an ability that counters Mystics.
You're specifically ignoring vox who isn't nullify immune and gets absolutely wrecked by it.
If they countered all buff control then you'd have a point, but there isn't a champion in the game immune to all forms of mystic buff manipulation so the idea that they simply counter mystics is incredibly misleading.
The reason they do this isn't to excite people, leader is still going to be terrible against skill champions, it literally just means that you can't shut down his entire kit with any shrug champion, but you still can with the right skill champions.
I’m not ignoring it, and frankly I think Vox is extremely well designed.
I said its about ignoring (facets of) class disadvantage, not countering the entire class. Like I said, 100% of Cosmic champions over the past two years ignore some facet of class disadvantage (in my example it is largely Neutralize).100% seems like overusing that ignore button.
What is odd is that new Non-Cosmic classes are designed without needing to ignore the traditional class disadvantage. Ironheart can still be easily deactivated by Cosmics; Bullseye doesnt specifically counter any historical Mutant strengths, Destroyer doesn’t specifically ignore Science abilities.
Imagine if all new Skill champions came out with -100% ability accuracy reduction on Prowess. Per your logic, this is not a problem because there are still Mutant champions who can still wreck those champions. My contention is that it is a problem that 100% of new skill champions ignore some facet of how Skill is supposed to be at a disadvantage against Mutant strengths.
They aren't ignoring facets of class advantage though? He is still best countered by skill champions in a variety of ways, he simply isn't able to have his entire kit shut down by agent venom lmao.
If they didn't add some kind of thing to each champion that made them not countable in the exact same way as every other champion of their class then there would be no necessity for new attackers. If serpent could be neutralised he would literally just not be a defender at all, it's a question of whether having to add immunity nodes to every boss just to make them not complete pushovers is better than creating kits that require different things to counter them.
Yall can pretend it isn't but this game is explicitly about roster development and building a wide variety of tools to counter all situations. Leader is basically just the first defender that's actively encouraged the use of tranquilise over other forms of debuff control and that's fine. The game isn't suddenly becoming lazy. The game survived mephisto having 0 counters upon his release, the game survived people not understanding how to fight penni, the game survived galan being nullify immune, and the game will survive with leaders debuffs not being able to be auto shrugged.
As we said though science should be countered by all of skills abilities as it makes it terrible if a class disadvantage can go toe to toe with a disadvantage by ignoring skill abilities it should always be skil counters science mutant counters skill mystic counters cosmic it shouldnt go in reverse like it has with cosmic vs mystic and now science vs skills because it means they now need to make a new ability for them classes to ignore them effects that shouldnt hinder them anyway
You are arguing about a thing that doesn’t exist. Skill champions DO COUNTER LEADER. All of them! Even Moon Knight! It straight up says it in his kit that all skill champs shrug his debuffs at the rate of one per second if you play properly.
This is not a design that counters the class wheel. It is explicitly in keeping with the class wheel, it just does it in a way that is unfamiliar and has a skill ask. But this conversation is much ado about nothing.
Yes but cleanse and purify should still be a key thing of removing debuffs
From his kit “ Personal Debuffs are Severe Debuffs, preventing them from being removed by Purify or Cleanse” they are literally ignoring skill abilities
No, there’s nothing wrong with this. If there were no counters to debuff shrugging, there would be no reason to use any Skill champ besides like Kingpin and maybe Valkyrie.
In a game that is all about roster growth, you cannot just say “this ~17% of the game will get clowned on every time by this ~17% of the game.” There needs to be nuance. It is bad game design otherwise.
It’s because they take away the traditional methods used to counter those champions. Like what if we had a mystic champ who is debuff immune? Or a skill champ who can remove passive effects off themselves? Or a cosmic who is buff immune? Galan was the first of those champions and we are seeing more of that
I think Kabam typically pilots new 'class advantage ignoring' abilities in the countered class as a way to sell excitement for new champions.
Like you mentioned, (Cosmic) Galan ignored (Mystic) nullify. But other examples include: (Skill) Cleanse ignoring (Mutant) debuff shrug counter. Tech (like Nimrod) having (Cosmic) armor break immunity. For more niche approaches, Absorbing Man with synergy or White Tiger have ways of manipulating debuffs (counters Science).
There are a lot more examples, but I think the main problem is that Kabam is giving everyone the ability to ignore class disadvantage as opposed to being more judicious in its approach. This is probably at the crux of your complaint.
For example, 2022 introduced Neutralize with Rintrah and Wiccan, and then every 2023 Cosmic champion essentially ignores Neutralize. 2024 only as the Cosmic Serpent, but even he has Fate Seal immunity in addition to benefiting when Nullify occurs. That is too much usage of the "ignore class disadvantage" card.
Edit: Funnily enough, saw that Superior Iron Man seems to have the increased AA thing going on, so yet another Mystic countering ability in a Cosmic. So we are still pretty much 100% from 2023-2024 with Cosmics having an ability that counters Mystics.
You're specifically ignoring vox who isn't nullify immune and gets absolutely wrecked by it.
If they countered all buff control then you'd have a point, but there isn't a champion in the game immune to all forms of mystic buff manipulation so the idea that they simply counter mystics is incredibly misleading.
The reason they do this isn't to excite people, leader is still going to be terrible against skill champions, it literally just means that you can't shut down his entire kit with any shrug champion, but you still can with the right skill champions.
I’m not ignoring it, and frankly I think Vox is extremely well designed.
I said its about ignoring (facets of) class disadvantage, not countering the entire class. Like I said, 100% of Cosmic champions over the past two years ignore some facet of class disadvantage (in my example it is largely Neutralize).100% seems like overusing that ignore button.
What is odd is that new Non-Cosmic classes are designed without needing to ignore the traditional class disadvantage. Ironheart can still be easily deactivated by Cosmics; Bullseye doesnt specifically counter any historical Mutant strengths, Destroyer doesn’t specifically ignore Science abilities.
Imagine if all new Skill champions came out with -100% ability accuracy reduction on Prowess. Per your logic, this is not a problem because there are still Mutant champions who can still wreck those champions. My contention is that it is a problem that 100% of new skill champions ignore some facet of how Skill is supposed to be at a disadvantage against Mutant strengths.
They aren't ignoring facets of class advantage though? He is still best countered by skill champions in a variety of ways, he simply isn't able to have his entire kit shut down by agent venom lmao.
If they didn't add some kind of thing to each champion that made them not countable in the exact same way as every other champion of their class then there would be no necessity for new attackers. If serpent could be neutralised he would literally just not be a defender at all, it's a question of whether having to add immunity nodes to every boss just to make them not complete pushovers is better than creating kits that require different things to counter them.
Yall can pretend it isn't but this game is explicitly about roster development and building a wide variety of tools to counter all situations. Leader is basically just the first defender that's actively encouraged the use of tranquilise over other forms of debuff control and that's fine. The game isn't suddenly becoming lazy. The game survived mephisto having 0 counters upon his release, the game survived people not understanding how to fight penni, the game survived galan being nullify immune, and the game will survive with leaders debuffs not being able to be auto shrugged.
As we said though science should be countered by all of skills abilities as it makes it terrible if a class disadvantage can go toe to toe with a disadvantage by ignoring skill abilities it should always be skil counters science mutant counters skill mystic counters cosmic it shouldnt go in reverse like it has with cosmic vs mystic and now science vs skills because it means they now need to make a new ability for them classes to ignore them effects that shouldnt hinder them anyway
You are arguing about a thing that doesn’t exist. Skill champions DO COUNTER LEADER. All of them! Even Moon Knight! It straight up says it in his kit that all skill champs shrug his debuffs at the rate of one per second if you play properly.
This is not a design that counters the class wheel. It is explicitly in keeping with the class wheel, it just does it in a way that is unfamiliar and has a skill ask. But this conversation is much ado about nothing.
Yes but cleanse and purify should still be a key thing of removing debuffs
From his kit “ Personal Debuffs are Severe Debuffs, preventing them from being removed by Purify or Cleanse” they are literally ignoring skill abilities
No, there’s nothing wrong with this. If there were no counters to debuff shrugging, there would be no reason to use any Skill champ besides like Kingpin and maybe Valkyrie.
In a game that is all about roster growth, you cannot just say “this ~17% of the game will get clowned on every time by this ~17% of the game.” There needs to be nuance. It is bad game design otherwise.
This. Same with Galan being immune to nullify, stagger and fate seal. They are trying to convince players to use different counters to different champions
It’s because they take away the traditional methods used to counter those champions. Like what if we had a mystic champ who is debuff immune? Or a skill champ who can remove passive effects off themselves? Or a cosmic who is buff immune? Galan was the first of those champions and we are seeing more of that
I think Kabam typically pilots new 'class advantage ignoring' abilities in the countered class as a way to sell excitement for new champions.
Like you mentioned, (Cosmic) Galan ignored (Mystic) nullify. But other examples include: (Skill) Cleanse ignoring (Mutant) debuff shrug counter. Tech (like Nimrod) having (Cosmic) armor break immunity. For more niche approaches, Absorbing Man with synergy or White Tiger have ways of manipulating debuffs (counters Science).
There are a lot more examples, but I think the main problem is that Kabam is giving everyone the ability to ignore class disadvantage as opposed to being more judicious in its approach. This is probably at the crux of your complaint.
For example, 2022 introduced Neutralize with Rintrah and Wiccan, and then every 2023 Cosmic champion essentially ignores Neutralize. 2024 only as the Cosmic Serpent, but even he has Fate Seal immunity in addition to benefiting when Nullify occurs. That is too much usage of the "ignore class disadvantage" card.
Edit: Funnily enough, saw that Superior Iron Man seems to have the increased AA thing going on, so yet another Mystic countering ability in a Cosmic. So we are still pretty much 100% from 2023-2024 with Cosmics having an ability that counters Mystics.
You're specifically ignoring vox who isn't nullify immune and gets absolutely wrecked by it.
If they countered all buff control then you'd have a point, but there isn't a champion in the game immune to all forms of mystic buff manipulation so the idea that they simply counter mystics is incredibly misleading.
The reason they do this isn't to excite people, leader is still going to be terrible against skill champions, it literally just means that you can't shut down his entire kit with any shrug champion, but you still can with the right skill champions.
I’m not ignoring it, and frankly I think Vox is extremely well designed.
I said its about ignoring (facets of) class disadvantage, not countering the entire class. Like I said, 100% of Cosmic champions over the past two years ignore some facet of class disadvantage (in my example it is largely Neutralize).100% seems like overusing that ignore button.
What is odd is that new Non-Cosmic classes are designed without needing to ignore the traditional class disadvantage. Ironheart can still be easily deactivated by Cosmics; Bullseye doesnt specifically counter any historical Mutant strengths, Destroyer doesn’t specifically ignore Science abilities.
Imagine if all new Skill champions came out with -100% ability accuracy reduction on Prowess. Per your logic, this is not a problem because there are still Mutant champions who can still wreck those champions. My contention is that it is a problem that 100% of new skill champions ignore some facet of how Skill is supposed to be at a disadvantage against Mutant strengths.
They aren't ignoring facets of class advantage though? He is still best countered by skill champions in a variety of ways, he simply isn't able to have his entire kit shut down by agent venom lmao.
If they didn't add some kind of thing to each champion that made them not countable in the exact same way as every other champion of their class then there would be no necessity for new attackers. If serpent could be neutralised he would literally just not be a defender at all, it's a question of whether having to add immunity nodes to every boss just to make them not complete pushovers is better than creating kits that require different things to counter them.
Yall can pretend it isn't but this game is explicitly about roster development and building a wide variety of tools to counter all situations. Leader is basically just the first defender that's actively encouraged the use of tranquilise over other forms of debuff control and that's fine. The game isn't suddenly becoming lazy. The game survived mephisto having 0 counters upon his release, the game survived people not understanding how to fight penni, the game survived galan being nullify immune, and the game will survive with leaders debuffs not being able to be auto shrugged.
As we said though science should be countered by all of skills abilities as it makes it terrible if a class disadvantage can go toe to toe with a disadvantage by ignoring skill abilities it should always be skil counters science mutant counters skill mystic counters cosmic it shouldnt go in reverse like it has with cosmic vs mystic and now science vs skills because it means they now need to make a new ability for them classes to ignore them effects that shouldnt hinder them anyway
You can think that, but the people designing the game disagree. Class disadvantage is literally nothing more than a stat benefit or deficit. The idea of class specific abilities was barely even a thing until a few years into the game and it's continuously evolved since then.
Leader as a science champion is best countered by skill champions, but can be fought with anyone as long as you play it right.what is the actual issue
It’s because they take away the traditional methods used to counter those champions. Like what if we had a mystic champ who is debuff immune? Or a skill champ who can remove passive effects off themselves? Or a cosmic who is buff immune? Galan was the first of those champions and we are seeing more of that
I think Kabam typically pilots new 'class advantage ignoring' abilities in the countered class as a way to sell excitement for new champions.
Like you mentioned, (Cosmic) Galan ignored (Mystic) nullify. But other examples include: (Skill) Cleanse ignoring (Mutant) debuff shrug counter. Tech (like Nimrod) having (Cosmic) armor break immunity. For more niche approaches, Absorbing Man with synergy or White Tiger have ways of manipulating debuffs (counters Science).
There are a lot more examples, but I think the main problem is that Kabam is giving everyone the ability to ignore class disadvantage as opposed to being more judicious in its approach. This is probably at the crux of your complaint.
For example, 2022 introduced Neutralize with Rintrah and Wiccan, and then every 2023 Cosmic champion essentially ignores Neutralize. 2024 only as the Cosmic Serpent, but even he has Fate Seal immunity in addition to benefiting when Nullify occurs. That is too much usage of the "ignore class disadvantage" card.
Edit: Funnily enough, saw that Superior Iron Man seems to have the increased AA thing going on, so yet another Mystic countering ability in a Cosmic. So we are still pretty much 100% from 2023-2024 with Cosmics having an ability that counters Mystics.
You're specifically ignoring vox who isn't nullify immune and gets absolutely wrecked by it.
If they countered all buff control then you'd have a point, but there isn't a champion in the game immune to all forms of mystic buff manipulation so the idea that they simply counter mystics is incredibly misleading.
The reason they do this isn't to excite people, leader is still going to be terrible against skill champions, it literally just means that you can't shut down his entire kit with any shrug champion, but you still can with the right skill champions.
I’m not ignoring it, and frankly I think Vox is extremely well designed.
I said its about ignoring (facets of) class disadvantage, not countering the entire class. Like I said, 100% of Cosmic champions over the past two years ignore some facet of class disadvantage (in my example it is largely Neutralize).100% seems like overusing that ignore button.
What is odd is that new Non-Cosmic classes are designed without needing to ignore the traditional class disadvantage. Ironheart can still be easily deactivated by Cosmics; Bullseye doesnt specifically counter any historical Mutant strengths, Destroyer doesn’t specifically ignore Science abilities.
Imagine if all new Skill champions came out with -100% ability accuracy reduction on Prowess. Per your logic, this is not a problem because there are still Mutant champions who can still wreck those champions. My contention is that it is a problem that 100% of new skill champions ignore some facet of how Skill is supposed to be at a disadvantage against Mutant strengths.
They aren't ignoring facets of class advantage though? He is still best countered by skill champions in a variety of ways, he simply isn't able to have his entire kit shut down by agent venom lmao.
If they didn't add some kind of thing to each champion that made them not countable in the exact same way as every other champion of their class then there would be no necessity for new attackers. If serpent could be neutralised he would literally just not be a defender at all, it's a question of whether having to add immunity nodes to every boss just to make them not complete pushovers is better than creating kits that require different things to counter them.
Yall can pretend it isn't but this game is explicitly about roster development and building a wide variety of tools to counter all situations. Leader is basically just the first defender that's actively encouraged the use of tranquilise over other forms of debuff control and that's fine. The game isn't suddenly becoming lazy. The game survived mephisto having 0 counters upon his release, the game survived people not understanding how to fight penni, the game survived galan being nullify immune, and the game will survive with leaders debuffs not being able to be auto shrugged.
As we said though science should be countered by all of skills abilities as it makes it terrible if a class disadvantage can go toe to toe with a disadvantage by ignoring skill abilities it should always be skil counters science mutant counters skill mystic counters cosmic it shouldnt go in reverse like it has with cosmic vs mystic and now science vs skills because it means they now need to make a new ability for them classes to ignore them effects that shouldnt hinder them anyway
You can think that, but the people designing the game disagree. Class disadvantage is literally nothing more than a stat benefit or deficit. The idea of class specific abilities was barely even a thing until a few years into the game and it's continuously evolved since then.
Leader as a science champion is best countered by skill champions, but can be fought with anyone as long as you play it right.what is the actual issue
Yes, even mystics can counter him if you play really carefully and follow the Leader’s rules. It doesn’t say mystics cannot remove his debuffs
If they didn't add some kind of thing to each champion that made them not countable in the exact same way as every other champion of their class then there would be no necessity for new attackers. If serpent could be neutralised he would literally just not be a defender at all, it's a question of whether having to add immunity nodes to every boss just to make them not complete pushovers is better than creating kits that require different things to counter them.
You are totally wrong - Kabam has been able to release Non-Cosmic champions without needing to resort to adding an ability that ignores some facet of class disadvantage.
Bullseye does not need a Mutant countering ability to be a good defender. Northstar does not need a Tech countering ability to potentially have a niche in long form content. Photon did not need a Skill countering ability to be desirable. On and on and on - there is a ton of evidence that Kabam is able to make champions be desirable as new attackers/defenders without needing to resort to giving them class disadvantage countering abilities.
And again, my main contention is the close to 100% of new champions having class disadvantage countering abilities (mostly in Cosmics, but we will see what will happen post-Leader).
One-offs (like when Galan was first introduced) are understandable, but having every subsequent Cosmic champions essentially disregard various Mystic champions, is overusing that lazy design. The concern is that going forward, Kabam will begin to ignore the core Rock-Paper-Scissor concept and just start designing champions that essentially ignores classes, which would then call into question why are there class catalysts and class champion crystals if classes don't matter as much anymore.
But leader doesn't have class advantage countering abilities. His abilities are countered best by skill champs, but literally any character can get rid of his debuffs for free without penalty, it's just better when skill champions do it. Using a skill champion if he didn't have anti purify would be near identical because it's still best to fight him by purifying the debuffs on the green door.
He's designed to be a fight that you have to play in s particular way, this isn't s new thing
It’s because they take away the traditional methods used to counter those champions. Like what if we had a mystic champ who is debuff immune? Or a skill champ who can remove passive effects off themselves? Or a cosmic who is buff immune? Galan was the first of those champions and we are seeing more of that
I think Kabam typically pilots new 'class advantage ignoring' abilities in the countered class as a way to sell excitement for new champions.
Like you mentioned, (Cosmic) Galan ignored (Mystic) nullify. But other examples include: (Skill) Cleanse ignoring (Mutant) debuff shrug counter. Tech (like Nimrod) having (Cosmic) armor break immunity. For more niche approaches, Absorbing Man with synergy or White Tiger have ways of manipulating debuffs (counters Science).
There are a lot more examples, but I think the main problem is that Kabam is giving everyone the ability to ignore class disadvantage as opposed to being more judicious in its approach. This is probably at the crux of your complaint.
For example, 2022 introduced Neutralize with Rintrah and Wiccan, and then every 2023 Cosmic champion essentially ignores Neutralize. 2024 only as the Cosmic Serpent, but even he has Fate Seal immunity in addition to benefiting when Nullify occurs. That is too much usage of the "ignore class disadvantage" card.
Edit: Funnily enough, saw that Superior Iron Man seems to have the increased AA thing going on, so yet another Mystic countering ability in a Cosmic. So we are still pretty much 100% from 2023-2024 with Cosmics having an ability that counters Mystics.
You're specifically ignoring vox who isn't nullify immune and gets absolutely wrecked by it.
If they countered all buff control then you'd have a point, but there isn't a champion in the game immune to all forms of mystic buff manipulation so the idea that they simply counter mystics is incredibly misleading.
The reason they do this isn't to excite people, leader is still going to be terrible against skill champions, it literally just means that you can't shut down his entire kit with any shrug champion, but you still can with the right skill champions.
I’m not ignoring it, and frankly I think Vox is extremely well designed.
I said its about ignoring (facets of) class disadvantage, not countering the entire class. Like I said, 100% of Cosmic champions over the past two years ignore some facet of class disadvantage (in my example it is largely Neutralize).100% seems like overusing that ignore button.
What is odd is that new Non-Cosmic classes are designed without needing to ignore the traditional class disadvantage. Ironheart can still be easily deactivated by Cosmics; Bullseye doesnt specifically counter any historical Mutant strengths, Destroyer doesn’t specifically ignore Science abilities.
Imagine if all new Skill champions came out with -100% ability accuracy reduction on Prowess. Per your logic, this is not a problem because there are still Mutant champions who can still wreck those champions. My contention is that it is a problem that 100% of new skill champions ignore some facet of how Skill is supposed to be at a disadvantage against Mutant strengths.
They aren't ignoring facets of class advantage though? He is still best countered by skill champions in a variety of ways, he simply isn't able to have his entire kit shut down by agent venom lmao.
If they didn't add some kind of thing to each champion that made them not countable in the exact same way as every other champion of their class then there would be no necessity for new attackers. If serpent could be neutralised he would literally just not be a defender at all, it's a question of whether having to add immunity nodes to every boss just to make them not complete pushovers is better than creating kits that require different things to counter them.
Yall can pretend it isn't but this game is explicitly about roster development and building a wide variety of tools to counter all situations. Leader is basically just the first defender that's actively encouraged the use of tranquilise over other forms of debuff control and that's fine. The game isn't suddenly becoming lazy. The game survived mephisto having 0 counters upon his release, the game survived people not understanding how to fight penni, the game survived galan being nullify immune, and the game will survive with leaders debuffs not being able to be auto shrugged.
As we said though science should be countered by all of skills abilities as it makes it terrible if a class disadvantage can go toe to toe with a disadvantage by ignoring skill abilities it should always be skil counters science mutant counters skill mystic counters cosmic it shouldnt go in reverse like it has with cosmic vs mystic and now science vs skills because it means they now need to make a new ability for them classes to ignore them effects that shouldnt hinder them anyway
You are arguing about a thing that doesn’t exist. Skill champions DO COUNTER LEADER. All of them! Even Moon Knight! It straight up says it in his kit that all skill champs shrug his debuffs at the rate of one per second if you play properly.
This is not a design that counters the class wheel. It is explicitly in keeping with the class wheel, it just does it in a way that is unfamiliar and has a skill ask. But this conversation is much ado about nothing.
Yes but cleanse and purify should still be a key thing of removing debuffs
From his kit “ Personal Debuffs are Severe Debuffs, preventing them from being removed by Purify or Cleanse” they are literally ignoring skill abilities
He can be completely shut down by tranquilise, a skill class ability. Stop acting like this is somehow an insult to the players when it's literally the opposite of what you're arguing it is
Comments
I said its about ignoring (facets of) class disadvantage, not countering the entire class. Like I said, 100% of Cosmic champions over the past two years ignore some facet of class disadvantage (in my example it is largely Neutralize).100% seems like overusing that ignore button.
What is odd is that new Non-Cosmic classes are designed without needing to ignore the traditional class disadvantage. Ironheart can still be easily deactivated by Cosmics; Bullseye doesnt specifically counter any historical Mutant strengths, Destroyer doesn’t specifically ignore Science abilities.
Imagine if all new Skill champions came out with -100% ability accuracy reduction on Prowess. Per your logic, this is not a problem because there are still Mutant champions who can still wreck those champions. My contention is that it is a problem that 100% of new skill champions ignore some facet of how Skill is supposed to be at a disadvantage against Mutant strengths.
“Sorrrry interrupts can’t work, you need a cancel-interupt-rebuttal to block my instant-cast in the past-now spell”
A disformed mass? Whoaa
Well, we already have blood....
And only his Colossal Cranium is the same size as Spider Ham 🤣
If they didn't add some kind of thing to each champion that made them not countable in the exact same way as every other champion of their class then there would be no necessity for new attackers. If serpent could be neutralised he would literally just not be a defender at all, it's a question of whether having to add immunity nodes to every boss just to make them not complete pushovers is better than creating kits that require different things to counter them.
Yall can pretend it isn't but this game is explicitly about roster development and building a wide variety of tools to counter all situations. Leader is basically just the first defender that's actively encouraged the use of tranquilise over other forms of debuff control and that's fine. The game isn't suddenly becoming lazy. The game survived mephisto having 0 counters upon his release, the game survived people not understanding how to fight penni, the game survived galan being nullify immune, and the game will survive with leaders debuffs not being able to be auto shrugged.
Bullseye does not need a Mutant countering ability to be a good defender. Northstar does not need a Tech countering ability to potentially have a niche in long form content. Photon did not need a Skill countering ability to be desirable. On and on and on - there is a ton of evidence that Kabam is able to make champions be desirable as new attackers/defenders without needing to resort to giving them class disadvantage countering abilities.
And again, my main contention is the close to 100% of new champions having class disadvantage countering abilities (mostly in Cosmics, but we will see what will happen post-Leader).
One-offs (like when Galan was first introduced) are understandable, but having every subsequent Cosmic champions essentially disregard various Mystic champions, is overusing that lazy design. The concern is that going forward, Kabam will begin to ignore the core Rock-Paper-Scissor concept and just start designing champions that essentially ignores classes, which would then call into question why are there class catalysts and class champion crystals if classes don't matter as much anymore.
1. Punish parry
2. Turn important/necessary masteries
3. Unavoidable damage (most of the time)
This is not a design that counters the class wheel. It is explicitly in keeping with the class wheel, it just does it in a way that is unfamiliar and has a skill ask. But this conversation is much ado about nothing.
From his kit “ Personal Debuffs are Severe Debuffs, preventing them from being removed by Purify or Cleanse” they are literally ignoring skill abilities
Overall I am very excited to try him out both on attack, and fighting against him. Also if you haven’t noticed already, Chee’ilth will be one of the best counters, so if you haven’t ranked her up, do it
In a game that is all about roster growth, you cannot just say “this ~17% of the game will get clowned on every time by this ~17% of the game.” There needs to be nuance. It is bad game design otherwise.
Leader as a science champion is best countered by skill champions, but can be fought with anyone as long as you play it right.what is the actual issue
He's designed to be a fight that you have to play in s particular way, this isn't s new thing