Are there actually any plans to updating Arena?

Another livestream ended and no mention of arena.

I would just like to see two small changes to it.
5* in summoner trials arena - it takes approximately 300 fights to get all the milestones done. Hoping allowing 5* can cut it to 100
No more hidden champion fights.

Bonus if there are 7 star arena and catalyst arena buff.

Comments

EdisonLaw

They didn’t say on stream, so probably not for now

Furrymoosen

I don't forsee them ever doing significant upgrades to arena, especially not the low level one. But there should be more gold given how expensive ranking 7* champs is, and we shouldn't be using 6 and 7* champs and get rewarded with grandmaster crystal shards.
My best suggestion would be to expand the summoner arena to use 5* too, boost it from PHC shards to grandmaster, then limit the other arenas to 5-7* champs, at least move up to cav shards in the milestones and increase 6* shards in the rank rewards.

Steam97

I doubt they'll do any changes to arena at least until next year

EdisonLaw

I don't forsee them ever doing significant upgrades to arena, especially not the low level one. But there should be more gold given how expensive ranking 7* champs is, and we shouldn't be using 6 and 7* champs and get rewarded with grandmaster crystal shards.
My best suggestion would be to expand the summoner arena to use 5* too, boost it from PHC shards to grandmaster, then limit the other arenas to 5-7* champs, at least move up to cav shards in the milestones and increase 6* shards in the rank rewards.

Maybe 7* and titan shards as well?

Furrymoosen

I don't forsee them ever doing significant upgrades to arena, especially not the low level one. But there should be more gold given how expensive ranking 7* champs is, and we shouldn't be using 6 and 7* champs and get rewarded with grandmaster crystal shards.
My best suggestion would be to expand the summoner arena to use 5* too, boost it from PHC shards to grandmaster, then limit the other arenas to 5-7* champs, at least move up to cav shards in the milestones and increase 6* shards in the rank rewards
Maybe 7* and titan shards as well?

In an ideal world, yeah. But I think you're then sneaking into new and locked arena territory. If they're going to put something that valuable in arena ranked rewards (because they shouldn't be in milestones), they'd need to have an arena for Paragon+ only.

DNA3000

Another livestream ended and no mention of arena.

I would just like to see two small changes to it.
5* in summoner trials arena - it takes approximately 300 fights to get all the milestones done. Hoping allowing 5* can cut it to 100
No more hidden champion fights.

Bonus if there are 7 star arena and catalyst arena buff.

All arenas pull opponents from the champions that players actually use in that arena. If you allow 5* champs to be used in the Summoner's trials arena, that will automatically mean the arena will be able to use those same 5* champs against the players in that arena.

This would have serious ramifications for lower players and players with smaller rosters, because of the way arena streak works. Without getting too deep into the precise calculations, the reason we see "infinite streak" opponents in the arena is due to a Beginning of Time Bug in the arena where the arena keeps looking for stronger and stronger opponents as your streak gets higher, but at some point it literally can't find such opponents because they don't exist. When the maximum possible opponent in the arena is a 4* R5, you can use very low 4* champs and even 3* champs, because the arena cannot find a correctly calibrated opponent for you (which is technically 4x your strength, but for complex reasons is usually something close to 3x your PI). So it uses a default match up which is much weaker than originally intended. That's infinite streak, Add 5* rarity, and the minimum team you need to avoid a deathmatch goes up.

Basically, if you allow players to use 5* champs, then most of the lower 4* champs players are using now will trigger deathmatches with those very same 5* champs as opponents. This would eliminate a lot of lower players (who are the primary target for that arena) from being able to participate effectively or even at all.

Also, try telling Crashed you want to make a "small change" to the arena where players can earn units three times faster than now. I double dare you.

startropics

i'm a consistent arena grinder and kind of like that arena hasn't seen any changes and i'm guessing that this is more intentional rather than them being late to address to the issue.

and imo i don't think there should be a 7* arena and they should keep rolling out new 7*s the way they're doing through offers, challenges, events etc.

current rollout is unique, fun, and kind of rewarding and we're not missing out on rewards cause they can just update other areas of the game instead of buffing the arenas.

Sunstar19

I’m a frequent arena grinder and don’t see the need to update arenas. Fine as it currently stands in terms of system and units as rewards across all the different arenas. It has greatly improved since the last iteration. Disagree on having a 7 star arena as it just allows players who use bots to pump up scores and get the top rewards. How are you able to spread your champions across one extra arena if 7 star arena is introduced?

If you want fewer fights to get the milestones, there are ways to reduce number of fights - switch your masteries to suicides, boost up and most importantly level up your 5 star to rank 4 and 5.

EdisonLaw

I’m a frequent arena grinder and don’t see the need to update arenas. Fine as it currently stands in terms of system and units as rewards across all the different arenas. It has greatly improved since the last iteration. Disagree on having a 7 star arena as it just allows players who use bots to pump up scores and get the top rewards. How are you able to spread your champions across one extra arena if 7 star arena is introduced?

If you want fewer fights to get the milestones, there are ways to reduce number of fights - switch your masteries to suicides, boost up and most importantly level up your 5 star to rank 4 and 5.

I agree, they need to revamp the rewards

Kabam Crashed

The primary way arena rewards are tuned is based on the amount of time it takes a player with a developed roster to reach the various milestones. Over the past few years we have reason to believe the amount of time has decreased meaningfully since the last time rewards were updated. I don't know how much, we haven't done a detailed internal investigation, but I think it would be fair to assume it's pretty significant. So if we did update the arena rewards, we would almost certainly be increasing the milestone thresholds in the 6-star arenas substantially.

Arena yields of Units, the most important reward, are really favorable to players right now. This is definitely a be careful what you wish for item for players.

BabyGroot

Crashed, I feel like units have devalued with top holiday rewards costing 36k instead of 18 or 21k. Top milestones are quicker to hit these days but the units themselves aren't going as far as they used to.

startropics

Crashed, I feel like units have devalued with top holiday rewards costing 36k instead of 18 or 21k. Top milestones are quicker to hit these days but the units themselves aren't going as far as they used to.

fair point, but doesn't that also mean that closing the gap between spenders and f2p gets closed faster as well?

if there's a higher spending ceiling (ie. more units needed for offers), that gap will eventually have to close just as fast as it always does.

whether cyber offers are 15k or 100k, the p2w and f2p gap always has to remain the same or else the game falls apart.

DNA3000

Crashed, I feel like units have devalued with top holiday rewards costing 36k instead of 18 or 21k. Top milestones are quicker to hit these days but the units themselves aren't going as far as they used to.

That implies the only or primary value for units is to max out unit offers, not actually, you know, buying things with them.

In other words, if the game offered you the chance to buy a single 7* Nexus for 5000 units today, and then tomorrow increased the limit to two, you're saying increasing the limit in that fashion reduces the value of units, because now it takes more units to buy the maximum amount of crystals.

I believe I am on very solid ground when I say I'm pretty sure this is not how the game economy designers see the value of units. Or will ever see the value of units. Or could be forced to see the value of units even at gunpoint.

DNA3000

The primary way arena rewards are tuned is based on the amount of time it takes a player with a developed roster to reach the various milestones. Over the past few years we have reason to believe the amount of time has decreased meaningfully since the last time rewards were updated. I don't know how much, we haven't done a detailed internal investigation, but I think it would be fair to assume it's pretty significant. So if we did update the arena rewards, we would almost certainly be increasing the milestone thresholds in the 6-star arenas substantially.

Arena yields of Units, the most important reward, are really favorable to players right now. This is definitely a be careful what you wish for item for players.

i was involved with the last arena milestone tuning calculations. Arena is fine. We don't need to do that again. Take the spreadsheets, flag them read-only, and then remove check-in rights for that part of the data tree from everyone. And let us never speak of this again.

Never ever ever. And a plague upon anyone who dares try.

BabyGroot

@DNA3000 If 1 nexus is 5k or 2 nexus are 10k then yeah it's still 5k a piece. My point is the top chase item or champ. Back when it was 21k per event, we spent 18k on the offers and then lastly 3k on the top chase offer.

Sure we get to buy things twice which is a cool option but for that big champ or item we need to drop 15k more units than we did in past events for something equally desirable for its time since it's now 36k to get it.

That's a 70% increase in unit cost to reach the top offer. Another thought could be the possibility that by them being purchasable twice, the offers themselves have become less game changing and tuned down. I skipped the 4th offers because I "only" had 22k units. Buying the offers once didn't feel like it was worth the units. Back in the day it pretty much always used to feel worth it even though we could only buy them once.

startropics

@DNA3000 If 1 nexus is 5k or 2 nexus are 10k then yeah it's still 5k a piece. My point is the top chase item or champ. Back when it was 21k per event, we spent 18k on the offers and then lastly 3k on the top chase offer.

Sure we get to buy things twice which is a cool option but for that big champ or item we need to drop 15k more units than we did in past events for something equally desirable for its time since it's now 36k to get it.

That's a 70% increase in unit cost to reach the top offer. Another thought could be the possibility that by them being purchasable twice, the offers themselves have become less game changing and tuned down. I skipped the 4th offers because I "only" had 22k units. Buying the offers once didn't feel like it was worth the units. Back in the day it pretty much always used to feel worth it even though we could only buy them once.

yeah, a higher ceiling doesn't make the items more "valuable" because the game economy will remain the same whether something costs 5000 units or 50 000 units.

so yes...we are paying more these days for the same experience...but that also means that f2p aren't losing out as much as we think. the economy has to balance out, it always does.

if f2p used to get 1 apple and whales used to get 5.....but pricing is higher now and whales can get 50, f2p aren't being capped at 1, they're probably getting 10. it might look like inflation but the devs are going to protect the game economy no matter what.

brownchr014

i'm a consistent arena grinder and kind of like that arena hasn't seen any changes and i'm guessing that this is more intentional rather than them being late to address to the issue.

and imo i don't think there should be a 7* arena and they should keep rolling out new 7*s the way they're doing through offers, challenges, events etc.

current rollout is unique, fun, and kind of rewarding and we're not missing out on rewards cause they can just update other areas of the game instead of buffing the arenas.

Disagree as the rewards need a buff. I'm talking strictly the shards. As grandmaster crystals give us at most a 5* and that cav shard should be not that big an ask

DNA3000

@DNA3000 If 1 nexus is 5k or 2 nexus are 10k then yeah it's still 5k a piece. My point is the top chase item or champ. Back when it was 21k per event, we spent 18k on the offers and then lastly 3k on the top chase offer.

Sure we get to buy things twice which is a cool option but for that big champ or item we need to drop 15k more units than we did in past events for something equally desirable for its time since it's now 36k to get it.

That's a 70% increase in unit cost to reach the top offer. Another thought could be the possibility that by them being purchasable twice, the offers themselves have become less game changing and tuned down. I skipped the 4th offers because I "only" had 22k units. Buying the offers once didn't feel like it was worth the units. Back in the day it pretty much always used to feel worth it even though we could only buy them once.

If you want to argue that the *top* bonus reward out of the big sales now takes twice as many units, then I should point out that a player with a strong roster can grind units out of the arena three times faster than when the current iteration of the arenas were first designed and balanced.

Once we start getting into the weeds on whether the top rewards are comparatively equal when factoring in power inflation, what the relative proportional difference makers those rewards are in relative economic terms, balancing availability verses acquisition rates, and all the other factors involved here, this is a Pandora's box you cannot close once you open. You cannot simply demand the devs boost the rewards. You can only get them to look. And once they start looking, they will take into account what their economic models tell them to take into account. And just because you think the rewards should be higher, doesn't mean their own analysis won't equally conclude that to get them you should be putting in several times more effort to do so.

Economic balance debates are not like champion balance debates. Most players are bringing a knife to a gunfight when they argue champion balance with the actual champion designers. Trying to argue economic balance to an econ designer is like bringing a knife to take down the Death Star.

Polygon

I remember in one of the posts with Jax and John where they said if there were going to be more units added it would be in game modes other than the Arena. That said, i definitely think there should be some QOL improvements.

The 4* arena takes way too long to max out, its like the time for both tbe basic/featured combined. That and it has a passive AI. Also the whole 5 wins before max points seems kind of outdated at this point, may as well just have it start at full bonus.

Noob_Master69

Honestly I'd just like some QoL changes to arena

Mostly just being able to use 5-6-7 stars in the arena with the most units as I barely have any 4*s ranked up

The rewards are fine for the time spent. Hell, probably the best time spent to rewards gained in the game. I just wish we didn't have to do worry about deathmatches and just AI not cooperating in general.

I know Infinite streak is easier to get now than it ever was. I just wished we didn't even have to think about it

Roggam

Ask not what the contest can do for you but what @DNA3000 can do for the contest

kenadroid

The primary way arena rewards are tuned is based on the amount of time it takes a player with a developed roster to reach the various milestones. Over the past few years we have reason to believe the amount of time has decreased meaningfully since the last time rewards were updated. I don't know how much, we haven't done a detailed internal investigation, but I think it would be fair to assume it's pretty significant. So if we did update the arena rewards, we would almost certainly be increasing the milestone thresholds in the 6-star arenas substantially.

Arena yields of Units, the most important reward, are really favorable to players right now. This is definitely a be careful what you wish for item for players.

It's mostly just too much work that the 4* arena takes triple the amount of grind to get all the milestones for twice the units. Hence adding the 5* options would really help make it less of a grind.

PT_99

No idea why we can't 6,7* stars in that 4* ARENA.

Stop with the, "uhhh low account players will face unfair matches uhh"

Perhaps just make a simple coding that if player use 6-7* in that Arena then they can only face 6-7* matches.

Very easy to fix 😃
But no, we excuse.

startropics

Honestly I'd just like some QoL changes to arena

Mostly just being able to use 5-6-7 stars in the arena with the most units as I barely have any 4*s ranked up

The rewards are fine for the time spent. Hell, probably the best time spent to rewards gained in the game. I just wish we didn't have to do worry about deathmatches and just AI not cooperating in general.

I know Infinite streak is easier to get now than it ever was. I just wished we didn't even have to think about it

The primary way arena rewards are tuned is based on the amount of time it takes a player with a developed roster to reach the various milestones. Over the past few years we have reason to believe the amount of time has decreased meaningfully since the last time rewards were updated. I don't know how much, we haven't done a detailed internal investigation, but I think it would be fair to assume it's pretty significant. So if we did update the arena rewards, we would almost certainly be increasing the milestone thresholds in the 6-star arenas substantially.

Arena yields of Units, the most important reward, are really favorable to players right now. This is definitely a be careful what you wish for item for players.
It's mostly just too much work that the 4* arena takes triple the amount of grind to get all the milestones for twice the units. Hence adding the 5* options would really help make it less of a grind.

No idea why we can't 6,7* stars in that 4* ARENA.

Stop with the, "uhhh low account players will face unfair matches uhh"

Perhaps just make a simple coding that if player use 6-7* in that Arena then they can only face 6-7* matches.

Very easy to fix 😃
But no, we excuse.

your quality of life won't change if they let you used 5s, 6s, and 7s because they'll just adjust the goal posts and make us do the same amount of work for the same rewards.

they've already decided that we need roughly 120 rounds to max out milestones in the 4* arena. if they let us use 7*s and not cap how many points 7*s get, we'll have to do the same amount of rounds under a new system.

there's no shortcut in this game and nothing's for free. 120 rounds is 120 rounds regardless of rarity. we should take kabam crashed's caution very seriously and not ask for a change.

startropics

kabam gives us scissors so we can cut grass on a small lawn

if we ask for one of these they'll make us mow 5 football fields with it...

the amount of work will be the same no matter what tool we use. let's not get sneaky with things, there's no QOL improvement to be had here.

DNA3000

No idea why we can't 6,7* stars in that 4* ARENA.

Stop with the, "uhhh low account players will face unfair matches uhh"

Perhaps just make a simple coding that if player use 6-7* in that Arena then they can only face 6-7* matches.

Very easy to fix 😃
But no, we excuse.

That is not an easy fix. Kabam actually tried to do that once before, but the way the arena works is a bit complex to simply hack in such changes.

And that's separate from the fact that there are other design reasons to ensure that the rewards and the content are roughly on par. The way the three arenas work now isn't just some arbitrary set of rules. They were very carefully negotiated during the back and forth between the players in the CCP advocating for the arenas to preserve and improve many of the experiences of the previous iteration and the designers trying to simplify and modernize those arenas in ways that were consistent with the economic design. Anyone who says there are just "easy fixes" to how the arenas work is a) ignorant of prior arena change history and b) ignorant in general.

DNA3000

The primary way arena rewards are tuned is based on the amount of time it takes a player with a developed roster to reach the various milestones. Over the past few years we have reason to believe the amount of time has decreased meaningfully since the last time rewards were updated. I don't know how much, we haven't done a detailed internal investigation, but I think it would be fair to assume it's pretty significant. So if we did update the arena rewards, we would almost certainly be increasing the milestone thresholds in the 6-star arenas substantially.

Arena yields of Units, the most important reward, are really favorable to players right now. This is definitely a be careful what you wish for item for players.
It's mostly just too much work that the 4* arena takes triple the amount of grind to get all the milestones for twice the units. Hence adding the 5* options would really help make it less of a grind.

That's because the 6* arenas have gotten much easier than originally designed, not because the trials arena is much harder than intended.

Is this something you would like the devs to reserve time to address? I kinda wouldn't, but it would almost be worth it just for the told you so opportunity.

startropics

The primary way arena rewards are tuned is based on the amount of time it takes a player with a developed roster to reach the various milestones. Over the past few years we have reason to believe the amount of time has decreased meaningfully since the last time rewards were updated. I don't know how much, we haven't done a detailed internal investigation, but I think it would be fair to assume it's pretty significant. So if we did update the arena rewards, we would almost certainly be increasing the milestone thresholds in the 6-star arenas substantially.

Arena yields of Units, the most important reward, are really favorable to players right now. This is definitely a be careful what you wish for item for players.
It's mostly just too much work that the 4* arena takes triple the amount of grind to get all the milestones for twice the units. Hence adding the 5* options would really help make it less of a grind.
That's because the 6* arenas have gotten much easier than originally designed, not because the trials arena is much harder than intended.

Is this something you would like the devs to reserve time to address? I kinda wouldn't, but it would almost be worth it just for the told you so opportunity.

why do the devs even listen to these requests?

if enough...and i say this as respectfully as possible...bozos ask them to look into it, why do they actually do it? it's like asking them to report back on what kind of snacks they have in their snack room. we really have no business asking lol.

DNA3000

The primary way arena rewards are tuned is based on the amount of time it takes a player with a developed roster to reach the various milestones. Over the past few years we have reason to believe the amount of time has decreased meaningfully since the last time rewards were updated. I don't know how much, we haven't done a detailed internal investigation, but I think it would be fair to assume it's pretty significant. So if we did update the arena rewards, we would almost certainly be increasing the milestone thresholds in the 6-star arenas substantially.

Arena yields of Units, the most important reward, are really favorable to players right now. This is definitely a be careful what you wish for item for players.
It's mostly just too much work that the 4* arena takes triple the amount of grind to get all the milestones for twice the units. Hence adding the 5* options would really help make it less of a grind.
That's because the 6* arenas have gotten much easier than originally designed, not because the trials arena is much harder than intended.

Is this something you would like the devs to reserve time to address? I kinda wouldn't, but it would almost be worth it just for the told you so opportunity.
why do the devs even listen to these requests?

if enough...and i say this as respectfully as possible...bozos ask them to look into it, why do they actually do it? it's like asking them to report back on what kind of snacks they have in their snack room. we really have no business asking lol.

Contrary to popular belief, the devs don't automatically do things just because enough players ask.

However, the devs are human. The more often something presents itself in their field of view, the more likely it is that it will capture the attention of the right, or wrong as the case may be, designer.

A thousand of us asking won't do anything. But the right developer in the right room who is inspired to take up the cause can do a lot.

BabyGroot

With serpent, onslaught, and other new champs, in away, the arena has gotten harder. At least in terms of mindlessly swiping and tapping with one eye on the TV.