What baffles me is the inconsistency. I had some attempts where AI played exactly how I wanted it to: threw the sp1 in the root phase, was able to keep him out of the wall, etc. but then other attempts I couldn’t intercept cause he’d keep blocking. He wouldn’t throw his sp1, stick to his own wall. Very odd behavior
100% trash AI…dozens of dexes just to get a single Sp1 thrown…Dust Sp2 completely evaded (1st half) then blocked (2nd half) by dashing in and out Toad…holding block to tease out heavy only to have immediate special thrown as soon as Dust moves to punish it…special button just dead at times.
Not hard otherwise. Just silly AI that pairs nicely with a resurgence of input issues.
I thought I was the only one... but AI is definitely tailored to this fight. Turtling, almost impossible to intercept. And when I try to use SP2 on block with hulkbuster all of a sudden he opens up his block and intercepts me. Yeah right...
What baffles me is the inconsistency. I had some attempts where AI played exactly how I wanted it to: threw the sp1 in the root phase, was able to keep him out of the wall, etc. but then other attempts I couldn’t intercept cause he’d keep blocking. He wouldn’t throw his sp1, stick to his own wall. Very odd behavior
I had only one of these attempts and that was my guilly solo every other time its been shocking
Finally done with kree or sin6 when i had the best ai for under 10% fun fight want more but god ai makes me question so many times on why i continue these but still finally done and id still give it a fun tick of a fight id repeat just need something for that ai check
It’s definitely tied to the player being asked to intercept. The AI is super passive to make it far harder and then after a bar of power there’s the risk of getting special intercepted, which it clearly seems programmed to to
I generally keep my opinions to myself, but kabam really, really dropped the ball by releasing this with the ultra mega hyper ai shortcomings. This is just a straight up middle finger to the community.
I thought people were exaggerating when they said he won’t throw his special 1….until I got home to finally try it myself. It was absolutely comical how long he would hold special 1 for. Like it has to be deliberate it was so egregious.
This AI will kill the game and I’m sick of hearing “It’s hard to fix, we are having conversations about it”. Just own up and say you don’t know how to fix it, or you like the way it is because it makes you money. I could at least respect that level honesty.
lI’m getting tired and bored of the silent changes being made to the AI and how the Kabam CM team either ignores or deliberately asserts the opposite. Whenever players raise concerns about the AI, the response is always the same: “investigating.” But it’s becoming increasingly clear that these so-called investigations are more about making the AI even more impossible to deal with, to the point where skill no longer matters and you’re guaranteed to get hit.
Shortened recovery times, the inability to punish heavy attacks and now, you can’t even hit the opponent’s block without being countered with a special. Worse, if they don’t have a special ready, they can perfectly time your inputs and punish you with a heavy instead.
If you guys want to make more money, release more content more often. But please stop treating your player base like they have Alzheimer’s and will forget what you’re doing to the game. We notice and it’s killing the fun. It’s up to you to take either constructive criticism seriously or downplay it in ways you think we won’t notice -hint we do.
I can promise you the investigations are absolutely not "lets make it harder." You may not believe me, but the reality is a lot more boring, simply that game design and software design is a long and complicated process made significantly more so by being a live product. It has been hard to nail down certain issues and other ones turn into larger conversations about design, balance, intent, etc etc that take a while and get mixed in in between and delayed by other work to keep designing new Champions, events, and experiences. I 100% hear your frustration, share some of it and have heard it and more from other members of the community and game team, so I'm happy to take this feedback and pass it along to the rest of the team and see if there's ways to make things feel better, but with anything subjective that's a tricky target to hit cause what feels right for one person might not for another. What is less tricky is acknowledging that 100% the ai has been a persistent issue lately, I believe for that very reason that how it feels is very subjective. That said folks continue to be frustrated by the performance of the ai so we are absolutely keeping the conversation going and will continue to pass along feedback. But, again, there's nothing malicious afoot, I can promise that.
I can promise you the investigations are absolutely not "lets make it harder." You may not believe me, but the reality is a lot more boring, simply that game design and software design is a long and complicated process made significantly more so by being a live product. It has been hard to nail down certain issues and other ones turn into larger conversations about design, balance, intent, etc etc that take a while and get mixed in in between and delayed by other work to keep designing new Champions, events, and experiences. I 100% hear your frustration, share some of it and have heard it and more from other members of the community and game team, so I'm happy to take this feedback and pass it along to the rest of the team and see if there's ways to make things feel better, but with anything subjective that's a tricky target to hit cause what feels right for one person might not for another. What is less tricky is acknowledging that 100% the ai has been a persistent issue lately, I believe for that very reason that how it feels is very subjective. That said folks continue to be frustrated by the performance of the ai so we are absolutely keeping the conversation going and will continue to pass along feedback. But, again, there's nothing malicious afoot, I can promise that.
Thanks Pinwheel but besides telling us "we are working on it", what exactly are you guys working on to fix the AI? Will there ever be an update that is focused on fixing AI?
Malicious isn’t the word I would use. But I find it hard to believe there isn’t at least some level of intentionality.
I’m fine having to roll the dice over and over to get a reasonably compliant AI—that is part of the current state of the game AI. It consumes more of what is perhaps my most precious resource (time), and it can become aggravating, but a certain level of aggravation is intrinsic to this type of content.
Subjectively, though, I can say that having to bait a single special out for nearly a minute against a 1.2M health pool opponent might tip the scale toward “aggravation overload” for a significant number of players who likely consider themselves the target audience for this kind of fight.
Yeah it’s so unbelievably garbage. They’ll never fix it though, just keep saying that it’s complex and leave it alone
I agree but it doesn't seem complex to me. Kabam makes it appear that way. The AI is oddly behaving in a manner that suits this particular defender so well, making them behave like it's intentionally designed. You fight a Toad in any content, this is not the toad AI behavior you'll get. True each content differs but in terms of difficulty. But none of us knows the codes behind the scene, but this one is intentionally hesitant at not just throwing his sp1 but when he doesn't have any prowess. Leave yourself open and he even dash back. However, whenever he has the require prowess to make him unblockable, he uses specials at ease. This is intentional and the fight design to me.
I thought this was known - have they said otherwise? The AI in this game clearly adapts to the nodes on it. All end game content displays that. As the examples @DrZola listed more times than not the AI acts the way that gives it the most advantages.
I can promise you the investigations are absolutely not "lets make it harder." You may not believe me, but the reality is a lot more boring, simply that game design and software design is a long and complicated process made significantly more so by being a live product. It has been hard to nail down certain issues and other ones turn into larger conversations about design, balance, intent, etc etc that take a while and get mixed in in between and delayed by other work to keep designing new Champions, events, and experiences. I 100% hear your frustration, share some of it and have heard it and more from other members of the community and game team, so I'm happy to take this feedback and pass it along to the rest of the team and see if there's ways to make things feel better, but with anything subjective that's a tricky target to hit cause what feels right for one person might not for another. What is less tricky is acknowledging that 100% the ai has been a persistent issue lately, I believe for that very reason that how it feels is very subjective. That said folks continue to be frustrated by the performance of the ai so we are absolutely keeping the conversation going and will continue to pass along feedback. But, again, there's nothing malicious afoot, I can promise that.
No bad intent on my end thank u for giving us a reply on this
I can promise you the investigations are absolutely not "lets make it harder." You may not believe me, but the reality is a lot more boring, simply that game design and software design is a long and complicated process made significantly more so by being a live product. It has been hard to nail down certain issues and other ones turn into larger conversations about design, balance, intent, etc etc that take a while and get mixed in in between and delayed by other work to keep designing new Champions, events, and experiences. I 100% hear your frustration, share some of it and have heard it and more from other members of the community and game team, so I'm happy to take this feedback and pass it along to the rest of the team and see if there's ways to make things feel better, but with anything subjective that's a tricky target to hit cause what feels right for one person might not for another. What is less tricky is acknowledging that 100% the ai has been a persistent issue lately, I believe for that very reason that how it feels is very subjective. That said folks continue to be frustrated by the performance of the ai so we are absolutely keeping the conversation going and will continue to pass along feedback. But, again, there's nothing malicious afoot, I can promise that.
While Kabam refuses to state what they think the problems with the AI are then it all seems intentional. Recovery time? Problem or design? Parried when hitting into the block? Problem or design?
Insert a 'until it's fixed passive' that sets the timer for doing a special after getting a bar, to "0 and x amount seconds". You can apply universally, like part of the saga lol
Then it'll keep them from holding specials. When you apply the fix, then get rid of the passive.
This SOS fight is ridiculous and I never contribute my opinion
It baffles me that we've got this Toad who's not launching a single special while I'm doing everything I can to bait it out, then on other days I'll be fighting champs who will actively throw specials into my block, or throw melee distance special intercepts while I'm dashing in.
The other SOS style fights have all had a discernable rhythm/speed, this one is so variable it's insane.
I can promise you the investigations are absolutely not "lets make it harder." You may not believe me, but the reality is a lot more boring, simply that game design and software design is a long and complicated process made significantly more so by being a live product. It has been hard to nail down certain issues and other ones turn into larger conversations about design, balance, intent, etc etc that take a while and get mixed in in between and delayed by other work to keep designing new Champions, events, and experiences. I 100% hear your frustration, share some of it and have heard it and more from other members of the community and game team, so I'm happy to take this feedback and pass it along to the rest of the team and see if there's ways to make things feel better, but with anything subjective that's a tricky target to hit cause what feels right for one person might not for another. What is less tricky is acknowledging that 100% the ai has been a persistent issue lately, I believe for that very reason that how it feels is very subjective. That said folks continue to be frustrated by the performance of the ai so we are absolutely keeping the conversation going and will continue to pass along feedback. But, again, there's nothing malicious afoot, I can promise that.
Thanks Pinwheel but besides telling us "we are working on it", what exactly are you guys working on to fix the AI? Will there ever be an update that is focused on fixing AI?
I think that's a fair ask. I'm looking into seeing if we can put together a more comprehensive statement than just my quick forum post. Can't promise anything yet as I just asked so don't have any approvals or anything, but fingers crossed can write out something a little more comprehensive for you. In what form that'll be or when I obviously can't yet say, but I think you're right to ask for more specificity.
It baffles me that we've got this Toad who's not launching a single special while I'm doing everything I can to bait it out, then on other days I'll be fighting champs who will actively throw specials into my block, or throw melee distance special intercepts while I'm dashing in.
The other SOS style fights have all had a discernable rhythm/speed, this one is so variable it's insane.
You should use a champ with intimidate debuff, he will throw an SP right away.
I can promise you the investigations are absolutely not "lets make it harder." You may not believe me, but the reality is a lot more boring, simply that game design and software design is a long and complicated process made significantly more so by being a live product. It has been hard to nail down certain issues and other ones turn into larger conversations about design, balance, intent, etc etc that take a while and get mixed in in between and delayed by other work to keep designing new Champions, events, and experiences. I 100% hear your frustration, share some of it and have heard it and more from other members of the community and game team, so I'm happy to take this feedback and pass it along to the rest of the team and see if there's ways to make things feel better, but with anything subjective that's a tricky target to hit cause what feels right for one person might not for another. What is less tricky is acknowledging that 100% the ai has been a persistent issue lately, I believe for that very reason that how it feels is very subjective. That said folks continue to be frustrated by the performance of the ai so we are absolutely keeping the conversation going and will continue to pass along feedback. But, again, there's nothing malicious afoot, I can promise that.
Thanks Pinwheel but besides telling us "we are working on it", what exactly are you guys working on to fix the AI? Will there ever be an update that is focused on fixing AI?
I think that's a fair ask. I'm looking into seeing if we can put together a more comprehensive statement than just my quick forum post. Can't promise anything yet as I just asked so don't have any approvals or anything, but fingers crossed can write out something a little more comprehensive for you. In what form that'll be or when I obviously can't yet say, but I think you're right to ask for more specificity.
Would it be fair to ask that if the AI issues are dodging you guys on the backend as much as they're dodging us on the front end, can we at least get beefier rewards?? The AI situation is daunting from a programmer's standpoint, and it's equally as daunting from a player's standpoint. In the meantime, between all the feedback reading and closed-door meetings, chuck out some beefier rewards since we have to deal with beefier AI...
Or, at the very least, compensation, since all involved knows beyond a reasonable doubt that this isn't the intended AI performance that anybody expects.
Malicious isn’t the word I would use. But I find it hard to believe there isn’t at least some level of intentionality.
I’m fine having to roll the dice over and over to get a reasonably compliant AI—that is part of the current state of the game AI. It consumes more of what is perhaps my most precious resource (time), and it can become aggravating, but a certain level of aggravation is intrinsic to this type of content.
Subjectively, though, I can say that having to bait a single special out for nearly a minute against a 1.2M health pool opponent might tip the scale toward “aggravation overload” for a significant number of players who likely consider themselves the target audience for this kind of fight.
Dr. Zola
If I understood you correctly, this is where I find myself with a fight design like this. Having to bait a single special for nearly two minutes, sometimes more, is really frustrating and doesn’t in anyway constitute challenging players. Personally, I find it more of an insult how our time is viewed. I’m a family man, working man, and I also do charity work helping families in a disadvantage position and I play mcoc. Yes, we have 2 weeks to complete this challenge but we have other things in the game we tackle as well, some of which have daily and weekly objectives. My point is: we don’t have to spend over a minute baiting a single special attack. I have video ready to post on YT, 2 minutes, Toad won’t throw his special attack.
This is not the first SOP challenge. The previous ones weren’t this contentious. Clearly, Kabam is on the inside and may have some knowledge as to what may cause the AI to behave a certain way or not. I don’t know anything but maybe a certain node combo can result in a certain behavior. If that’s the case, choose another route.
But more importantly, aren’t these fight tested enough to know that this AI is behaving abnormally and thus warrant some adjustments? If the intent is not malicious, I’m not saying the intent is, but if it’s not, then noticing this through testing might warrant some updates or changes out of consideration to the playerbase.
Comments
Defender code should have a line saying something like, if over a bar of power, remove all power after 30 secs of not using a special attack.
100% trash AI…dozens of dexes just to get a single Sp1 thrown…Dust Sp2 completely evaded (1st half) then blocked (2nd half) by dashing in and out Toad…holding block to tease out heavy only to have immediate special thrown as soon as Dust moves to punish it…special button just dead at times.
Not hard otherwise. Just silly AI that pairs nicely with a resurgence of input issues.
Dr. Zola
Got a solo with r1 g99 and r3 juggernaut. Juggernaut to be honest was pretty silly
The only positive spin on this I can think of is this: I was SO confident that he would refuse to throw his sp1 that intercepting him was easy as hell
This AI will kill the game and I’m sick of hearing “It’s hard to fix, we are having conversations about it”. Just own up and say you don’t know how to fix it, or you like the way it is because it makes you money. I could at least respect that level honesty.
Shortened recovery times, the inability to punish heavy attacks and now, you can’t even hit the opponent’s block without being countered with a special. Worse, if they don’t have a special ready, they can perfectly time your inputs and punish you with a heavy instead.
If you guys want to make more money, release more content more often. But please stop treating your player base like they have Alzheimer’s and will forget what you’re doing to the game. We notice and it’s killing the fun. It’s up to you to take either constructive criticism seriously or downplay it in ways you think we won’t notice -hint we do.
I’m fine having to roll the dice over and over to get a reasonably compliant AI—that is part of the current state of the game AI. It consumes more of what is perhaps my most precious resource (time), and it can become aggravating, but a certain level of aggravation is intrinsic to this type of content.
Subjectively, though, I can say that having to bait a single special out for nearly a minute against a 1.2M health pool opponent might tip the scale toward “aggravation overload” for a significant number of players who likely consider themselves the target audience for this kind of fight.
Dr. Zola
Recovery time? Problem or design?
Parried when hitting into the block? Problem or design?
You get the drift.
Insert a 'until it's fixed passive' that sets the timer for doing a special after getting a bar, to "0 and x amount seconds". You can apply universally, like part of the saga lol
Then it'll keep them from holding specials. When you apply the fix, then get rid of the passive.
This SOS fight is ridiculous and I never contribute my opinion
The other SOS style fights have all had a discernable rhythm/speed, this one is so variable it's insane.
Or, at the very least, compensation, since all involved knows beyond a reasonable doubt that this isn't the intended AI performance that anybody expects.
This is not the first SOP challenge. The previous ones weren’t this contentious. Clearly, Kabam is on the inside and may have some knowledge as to what may cause the AI to behave a certain way or not. I don’t know anything but maybe a certain node combo can result in a certain behavior. If that’s the case, choose another route.
But more importantly, aren’t these fight tested enough to know that this AI is behaving abnormally and thus warrant some adjustments? If the intent is not malicious, I’m not saying the intent is, but if it’s not, then noticing this through testing might warrant some updates or changes out of consideration to the playerbase.